Who uses them and are they of any real benefit ? I'm looking at getting one for my new Widow. Can I use ff instead of D97 ?
I can't help with skinny strings but Fast Flight is an older version of low stretch strings. I believe D97 is a newer better material but there are others on here who can help you a lot more the me.
Did it years ago. Thought it was noisier and not worth it.
Ive been out of traditional archery for awhile. Thought ff was the newer of the 2. Been gone longer than I think.....
Lol
Fast flite has sort of become the generic reference to low-stretch strings. Been around a long time. D-97 is newer. That's what I currently use, but have read that some of the newer materials are better yet.
Yes, for me D-97 is a tad noisier, higher pitched actually, than dacron, but I have no trouble quieting it enough for me with wooly whispers. Low stretch strings get noticeable performance increases out of most bows and reduce hand shock at the end of the shot. Unlike dacron, they stay put once shot in, i.e., they don't stretch, at least not as much, with temperature changes, etc. And, they're more durable than dacron.
Dacron makes a good, quiet string. I just like D-97 a bit more.
I use skinny strings and they have been good. No noisier than anything else.
I've only had one bow with a skinny string, but I didn't care for it at all. Even with two massive string silencers it still had a high pitch ring to it whenever I shot it.
I tried a skinny string on a 65# bow and didn't care for it. Cut into my fingers, didn't notice any difference in noise.
I always have swapped out the stock Widow strings in favor of 8 strand SBD Silent but Deadly bowstrings.Its made from D-10 material and the loops on the strings are built up for a cushioning effect.I always have wool puffs on those strings.
In my experience they make for a quieter bow with less vibration and a tad more speed.
I would recommend trying one and seeing for yourself how they compare to the stock string.I think you will feel and hear the difference and find it was money well spent.
I was never a fan. However, I received a new bow with one on it built by the bowyer. I have to say, I might be a convert...
I've tried them, couldn't really see a difference over a normal sized string. Build my own now and kind of go in between skinny and fat. I think how well it's made and the material it's made from makes a bigger difference than how skinny it is, kind of like people!
I make my own endless loop skinny strings. Have for several years now. In my opinion it has to be built at exactly the right length for each particular bow. Easy for me as I've only used my homemade bows for a long time now. Once the sweet length is found I find it to be awesome. I do pad the loops and serving area. I believe the bow shoots quieter and smoother. It is a different sound for sure from B50 though.
My Big River LB 21st Century version, came with SDS and it shoots noticeably faster than my MOAB, which is fast with a heavy arrow, shooting 185-189 fps with 700 grain arrows. BR @3# heavier, same length but shoots faster to my eye. Have not chrono-graphed it yet. Really have not noticed any increase in noise, but now I'll pay more attention.[attachment=1]
I prefer a thicker loop so it lays fuller in the groove.
D97 and FF+ are interchangeable. D97 is the only thing I use but FF+ is acceptable to Border Archery. I use D97 because that is what Steve Baker uses when he builds strings for me. I recall that he makes the string 12 strands of D97 but pads the loops and lengthens the tags to wrap farther around the big hooks on my Border Covert Hunter.
What is the diameter of a "skinny" string before serving? Don't see how to have a discussion without 1st identifying "skinny". Using strand count doesn't work as available materials can vary 50% and more from one to the next. Break out those micrometers ;) :)
low strand count strings were a novelty of sorts for me and i built quite a few, for all the bows i owned and for friend's bows.
in the long run, i've gone the opposite direction, to higher strand count strings.
while skinny strings can offer a few feet-per-second boost in arrow speed, heavier strings offer the better advantage of Stability and the added "robustness" of more strands in the string.
Quote from: Rob DiStefano on March 03, 2019, 09:47:24 AM
low strand count strings were a novelty of sorts for me and i built quite a few, for all the bows i owned and for friend's bows.
in the long run, i've gone the opposite direction, to higher strand count strings.
while skinny strings can offer a few feet-per-second boost in arrow speed, heavier strings offer the better advantage of Stability and the added "robustness" of more strands in the string.
I tend to agree. I thought it was just me or in my head. I've tried several skinny strings and just received a Holm-Made River Runner with a skinny string and it doesn't "feel" or shoot near as stabile to me as a Kota I have with the thicker string. Don't like the feel at the shot with the skinny string. Gonna swap it out and see. For whatever reason, and it still maybe in my head, but I rather have a string with more stands than the skinnies. Just seem more stabile and controlling to me.
Just out of curiosity, what is string stability? What does a stable string feel like vs an unstable one?
Serious questions...
low strand count strings, regardless of each strand's tensile strength, seem to add more vibration(s) to my longbows, with a shorter "recovery" time after each release. there is almost always some added string stretch because there are fewer strands. aesthetically, they have a higher pitched release twang, as well. they can add perhaps 2 to 5 fps to the arrow speed.
a higher strand count string has the opposite of all that, for my bows and me.
what makes a string a low strand count? any bowstring that has the fewest safe number of strands that equate to a tensile strength that is commensurate with the actual holding weight of the bow while at the shooter's draw length. while i could easily make 4 strand d97/d02 bowstrings, i never went below 6 strands and mostly used 8 strands. now my strings are 14 strands of the same string fiber. this is for 45 to 55 pound longbows. in the way distant past my longbow strings were all flemish, but i quickly changed over to endless.
all of this is infused with a fair amount of subjectivity. there is no right or wrong, only what works best for each of us.
Kennym,
Hard for me to put in words, but it's a feel thing for me. I'll try and describe my thinking. I tend to like a softer shot at release, and the skinnies I've tried seem to have a quicker faster/response, which for me and personal preference, doesn't feel controlling, where a thicker string for me has a softer take off at release. I'm not sure if that makes sense and stability may not be the right word.
I think I probably should say I just prefer a little thicker string for myself. Lol.
Mike
kennym: String stability to me is not elongating on the bow. Dacron, even when it's shot in, tends to elongate under warmer temperatures. It also has more stretch at the shot compared to the low-stretch strings.
All strings have some stretch, though the newer low-stretch strings have very little. Made extremely light i.e., low strand) they might stretch a bit at the shot, but again, not as much as dacron, and not enough for most people to notice, and they still reduce limb vibration and hand shock more than dacron. Made standard or heavyweight, there's virtually no stretch, at least none the archer could feel. And, the low stretch materials aren't as susceptible to temperature fluctuation as is dacron. In short, they're more stable.
A skinny string shouldn't be any harder on the fingers than a normally built string because it should be served to the same thickness (as previously used strings) to fit the arrows one already uses.
rather than use a larger diameter serving thread, i padded all the serving areas - center and loops - with dacron string fiber. loops always get nylon serving as that material is kinder to the limb nocks, and for the center serving i like BCY's halo HMPE thread.
I jumped on the skinny string bandwagon along with everyone else, and learned how to pad my loops and double serve. I think that by the time you do all that, you're really gaining very little. After a while I decided that it made more sense to just use the number of strands needed to properly pad the loops and get good nock fit with one layer of .021 serving.
for all my bows it's 14 strands of d'02, no loop padding, #4 nylon for the loops and .016 halo for the center serving.
Some bows like them. Some bows do not. My personal two Sierra longbows like the 8-strand D10 strings that Pierre Lucas from Silent But Deadly Bowstrings makes. His strings make the bow more quiet, have less vibration, shoot a fuzz faster, and don't continue to stretch after the initial break in. What's not to like with that?
Quote from: GDPolk on March 04, 2019, 03:32:27 PM
Some bows like them. Some bows do not. My personal two Sierra longbows like the 8-strand D10 strings that Pierre Lucas from Silent But Deadly Bowstrings makes. His strings make the bow more quiet, have less vibration, shoot a fuzz faster, and don't continue to stretch after the initial break in. What's not to like with that?
that's really great - for you.
and THAT is the bottom line and at the core of ALL bowstrings -
personal subjectivity.
this may mean trying out different strings for each of yer bows, see what cartridge load yer gun likes best. it's really the same thing.
if a string works well for ya, then what's not to like with that? :bigsmyl:
:campfire:
Quote from: Rob DiStefano on March 04, 2019, 03:50:21 PM
Quote from: GDPolk on March 04, 2019, 03:32:27 PM
Some bows like them. Some bows do not. My personal two Sierra longbows like the 8-strand D10 strings that Pierre Lucas from Silent But Deadly Bowstrings makes. His strings make the bow more quiet, have less vibration, shoot a fuzz faster, and don't continue to stretch after the initial break in. What's not to like with that?
that's really great - for you.
and THAT is the bottom line and at the core of ALL bowstrings - personal subjectivity.
this may mean trying out different strings for each of yer bows, see what cartridge load yer gun likes best. it's really the same thing.
if a string works well for ya, then what's not to like with that? :bigsmyl:
:campfire:
Exactly. For what it's worth I've tested the two bows with 6-8 different types of string builds. What I was looking for was a lower sounding pitch during the shot, lower volume during the shot, and less handshock/vibration. The speed didn't matter to me nor did the stability of the string as compared to making my bow sound and feel better in the hand. A 12-strand D97 string was actually a tad more quiet and had a deeper pitch than all the others but the bow vibrated like a tuning fork after the shot. So I took a slight increase in noise to improve the shooting characteristics of the bow. It just turned out to also shoot faster than the rest and stretch very little. To me this is a fun part about tuning the BOW to shoot it's best which is, as you said, almost like finding a pet load for a firearm.
Quote from: Rob DiStefano on March 03, 2019, 05:56:10 PM
for all my bows it's 14 strands of d'02, no loop padding, #4 nylon for the loops and .016 halo for the center serving.
Rob are you still using this for your strings? On asl longbows, too? Thanks
I make my own skinny strings with padded loops...they're pretty. But I like to shoot my thick ones better. I actually think I'm more accurate with them.
Quote from: Kelly on November 25, 2021, 03:46:25 PM
Quote from: Rob DiStefano on March 03, 2019, 05:56:10 PM
for all my bows it's 14 strands of d'02, no loop padding, #4 nylon for the loops and .016 halo for the center serving.
Rob are you still using this for your strings? On asl longbows, too? Thanks
Nope, gone back old school, all strings (endless and Flemish) are 14 strands of B55.
Quote from: Rob DiStefano on November 25, 2021, 06:04:14 PM
Quote from: Kelly on November 25, 2021, 03:46:25 PM
Quote from: Rob DiStefano on March 03, 2019, 05:56:10 PM
for all my bows it's 14 strands of d'02, no loop padding, #4 nylon for the loops and .016 halo for the center serving.
Rob are you still using this for your strings? On asl longbows, too? Thanks
Nope, gone back old school, all strings (endless and Flemish) are 14 strands of B55.
I'm interested in this. Can you explain why? What do you prefer about the b-55? I'm assuming quieter/softer feel? Any shots through the chrono to compare the speed difference?
Quote from: Joeabowhunter on November 25, 2021, 06:27:53 PM
Quote from: Rob DiStefano on November 25, 2021, 06:04:14 PM
Quote from: Kelly on November 25, 2021, 03:46:25 PM
Quote from: Rob DiStefano on March 03, 2019, 05:56:10 PM
for all my bows it's 14 strands of d'02, no loop padding, #4 nylon for the loops and .016 halo for the center serving.
Rob are you still using this for your strings? On asl longbows, too? Thanks
Nope, gone back old school, all strings (endless and Flemish) are 14 strands of B55.
I'm interested in this. Can you explain why? What do you prefer about the b-55? I'm assuming quieter/softer feel? Any shots through the chrono to compare the speed difference?
Yes - quieter, softer - but mainly better overall stability. The trade-off is a perceived loss in arrow speed (with all tackle the same other than the string material).
I mirror steelhead
I have used SBD strings on my bows for a lot of years. To me they are quieter and seem to be more dead in the hand on release. That's a 635 gr arrow on a 58 lb bow and similar GPP with my other bows. I've even put a D97 stock string back on as a reminder and yea, I can sure tell a difference. They will change your tune a little needing a little stiffer arrow
Quote from: Mike Burch on March 03, 2019, 12:08:51 PM
Quote from: Rob DiStefano on March 03, 2019, 09:47:24 AM
low strand count strings were a novelty of sorts for me and i built quite a few, for all the bows i owned and for friend's bows.
in the long run, i've gone the opposite direction, to higher strand count strings.
while skinny strings can offer a few feet-per-second boost in arrow speed, heavier strings offer the better advantage of Stability and the added "robustness" of more strands in the string.
I tend to agree. I thought it was just me or in my head. I've tried several skinny strings and just received a Holm-Made River Runner with a skinny string and it doesn't "feel" or shoot near as stabile to me as a Kota I have with the thicker string. Don't like the feel at the shot with the skinny string. Gonna swap it out and see. For whatever reason, and it still maybe in my head, but I rather have a string with more stands than the skinnies. Just seem more stabile and controlling to me.
Tend to agree with you and Rob, while I didn't dislike the skinny I favor the opposite. Let us know if the River Runner improves!
When I ordered my bows from Northern Mist, they came with D-97. It has worked well, so I have stayed with it. It makes sense to try different materials to see what works best in your particular situation. I have no real preference of one material over another beyond how well it performs on a given bow.
Based on the varied responses I would suggest that you try one and see how you like it. Some like them, some don't. I think they help lighter draw bows a tad bit. I don't have any problems keeping them quiet.
String design and build is a personal thing.
String design can be best used by its inherent functional abilities.
Need a faster arrow for lowered trajectory? Need more shot stability? Need more inherent string consistency or durability?
As long as a string works the was it was designed, it's a good string.
I am a fan of the skinny strings infact just ordered another pair from SBD for one of my newer bows. I have used them for several years. I had and sold a BW PCH that I did a chrono test with std (D97) string and a skinny string (SBD) out of the 60lb BW. the SBD string was 8fps faster than the D97 and noticeably more STABLE, and dead in the hand at the shot. I have no problem getting my strings quiet. Now don't no one get there panties in a wad, I have a 60lb (70s) grizzly that has a SBD string on it for over 5yrs now and I shoot it alot. For me I will stay with what works for me. I am slowly transitioning ALL of my bows to skinny strings.
You are putting B55 on your modern bows because it makes the bow nicer to shoot? Tell me more. Do bows tend to slap your are more than if you use a more non-stretch material?
Tedd
Quote from: Tedd on November 26, 2021, 06:17:43 PM
You are putting B55 on your modern bows because it makes the bow nicer to shoot? Tell me more. Do bows tend to slap your are more than if you use a more non-stretch material?
Tedd
If yer post here is directed at me ...
I never have arm slap and haven't worn an arm guard in half a century. This is a matter of bow arm and bow hand technique.
There is something "forgiving" and yet "stable" for having my bows braced with B55. The arrow speed is compromised, as expected, but speed doesn't necessarily kill, nor adds to consistent accuracy (in fact, it may be a detraction).
Again, choose a string for the bow and task(s) at hand and what works best for you. This doesn't mean one kind of string is better than another, it just means that yer looking for a string that will offer the best compromise for you and your requirements. And, as it has in my case, your string requirements may change over time. I do admit that I can whip up my own strings in endless or Flemish flavors whenever the need arises, so that's an advantage for testing strings and their parameters.
There's nothing like getting older and realizing that change can be inevitable - we like change, we hate change. :dunno: :saywhat: :campfire:
I never wear an arm guard either. Don't even own one. I have some DFRF long bows and self bows that touch sometimes.
I don't have any B55 to play with. I wish they sell bow string in "sample" spools.
Tedd
Quote from: Tedd on November 26, 2021, 06:54:58 PM
I never wear an arm guard either. Don't even own one. I have some DFRF long bows and self bows that touch sometimes.
I don't have any B55 to play with. I wish they sell bow string in "sample" spools.
Tedd
BCY used to sell small spool samples, don't see it on their website, worth giving them a call just to be sure.
Rob, I thought I was the only one left still shooting dacron :) I've always liked the feel of it and the sound. I pre stretch the strings with a ratchet strap and have nearly zero stretch or shoot in time.
I still shoot some B-50 or B-55.Been shooting it alot on one of my a Bear T.Ds.Quiet and pleasant.Different than when I shoot my low stretch strings on it.I enjoy it.I shoot mostly 12 strand.I think 12 and 14 strands would be about ideal for most bows.
Some bows just behave nicer and feel sweeter and shoot quieter with B-50/55 to me.Key word some bows.One size may not fit all.Its not expensive and can be worth a try.If you prefer the low stretch string your not out much and have a backup string if you prefer the FF type materials.
I would recommend it on Vintage bows in case of a dry fire or broken nock in spite of what folks say.It will absorb stress better on the tips in those situations.
I think more guys use it than folks know.FF is definatly more popular though.
I also might have a bow where I am underspined with my arrow on FF and can tune it to B-55 and get better arrow flight.
BCY B55 and Brownell B50 is a bunch better than what was the "top of the line" Brownell Dacron B42 of the 50s and 60s ... I think there was an earlier B36, too?
My "newest" bow is wearing the string I purchased with the bow. It's 16 strands of D97...not exactly skinny but I like it. I bought some D97 so I can make a replacement.
I had one bow built that came with a skinny 8190 string and I don't like anything about that string. It sounds goofy and it's a pain to serve to fit the nocks.
I still have some B50 and B55 that I still use. All the measurable differences acknowledged and considered, I've always been happy enough with the dacron and I don't have any use for a "skinny" string of any material.
I like to use only the number of strands I feel is necessary. for example, I use 10 strands for bows around 30#, 12 strands for bows around 40#, 14 strands for for 45#, and 16 strands for 50# and so on. Those probably wouldn't be considered "skinny" to some, but I like to use force 10 or 8125 and those are quite thin. Can they be a benefit? It depends on the bow design. On some of the heavily D/R hybrid designs or recurves, you might not notice much, you may even hear a bit different noise, or a higher pitch that may seem unpleasant. But on a D/R longbow or ASL, they can reduce hand shock, add performance, vibrate less. You even get more positive results when you eliminate the crimp-on styled, metallic nock points, and use something of lower mass, like silk thread, or of no mass, like a paint marker, to indicate you nock point.
Mike brings up an excellent point - nocking point material. I like to keep it light and small, and a few overhand knots of string fiber that are tied tight and then saturated with water thin CYA. Quite durable and positive.
Tried them and they are not really any louder but the higher pitch of the skinny string is more noticable like that of a skinny guitar string .