I love longbows, and I love Howard Hill. Wanted a Hill bow for some time, I tried one out someone had today at the range. It was 54lbs@ 28". I shoot with an extreamly loose grip. I shot the bow, and I have to say, i've never had a bow kick me that hard. Do they all have that much hand shock? I found myself wondering how howard hill shot that bow with 80lbs of draw, then I remembered the pictures of him shooting and seeing him allow the bow to spin totally around in his hand. So im assuming it definatly takes a loose grip.
A Hill bow needs to griped a certin way....And a arrow that is at least 10 grains per pound works too....
Like Mike g said, it's all in the grip. Go to:
www.howardhillshooters.com (http://www.howardhillshooters.com)
you'll find a ton of Hill info, pictures of beautiful Hill bows, etc. One of the links is to a full page of discussion and pictures specfically about grip.
I was lucky, I guess, and started out gripping it right. I shoot only Hills now, have a wall full of them, and have yet to experience hand shock.
I did get terrible shck out of a "hybrid" longbow... so bad I couldn't hang onto it. IMHO, you can't combine recurve and flatbow shooting or design. If you try to combine the designs, you lose some of the best of each. If you try to shoot both, sooner or later you're going to overgrip the recurve or grip the flatbow too loose. At best, you'll get a bad shot; at worst had shock.
Again, that's just my opinion, but I resolved the problem by deciding which type of bow I want to shoot and then sticking to it.
dick in seattle
The ones that I've shot have. A loose grip and heavy arrows help, but they still had noticable hand shock; to me anyway. I've made selfbows that had far less.
I shoot HH bills and can say that every once in a while one kicks hard. I shot one like that but, that being said the brace height was extremely low and the arrow was around 7 grains per inch. Even then it was not all that bad. A good firm grip and heeled hand really helps.
Fo Dick in Seattle,
Although I now shoot mostly my Hill 66", 60# longbow, I do have a Bob Lee hybrid, takedown 'longbow'. It is a fantastic shooter. It really seems to have the 'best' of flatbow/recurve qualities. I just wanted to say that there is one hybrid that is a real success. My Hill kick?? Never seemed to notice...
Steve in Maine
I shot them for years. At the time I bought them, several, I might add, John Schulz was the Howard Hill bowyer. He had been PERSONALLY taught to shoot and to build bows by Howard Hill. I have not seen one of the new Hill bows that was even close to the workmanship John Schulz put out.
The kick like mules! There you have it! Sorry, guys, but they are HARD shooters. I sold all but two of mine. I have the first one he built me, which has taken well over 100 animals, and I have the #1900 Howard Hill Commemorative bow.
I switched to Reflex/Deflex design. Light years smooter, no hand shock, much more quiet, and MUCH faster.
It's not my intent to slam any bow company, just put out some simple truth. If you want to shoot that old, straight design, go for it, but know that it will slam you hard when you shoot it...regardless of how you hold the grip!
Just an opinion...
Too Short
Too Short summed up my feelings as well.I have a bad elbow and a few shots with a Hill will put me out of shooting a few days.Grip it anyway you want and shoot logs but it still kicks more than most bows would with light weight arrows.You got to really love them to shoot them because it is not shooting qualities that make them popular.It is the name on the bow. jmo
ttt
guess I have to disagree with this.
I've bought and sold quite a few bows mostly used including a couple big 5's and one wesley special, and currently own 2 John Schulz grandpas (all boo bows).
Both big 5's would tear ya up something bad.
The wesley was a very nice shooter, kind of suprising!
The John Schulz bows are extremely nice shooters!!! Though I see why howard shot such a heavy bow now.
If'n you're serious about getting a hill bow, I'd get a wesley without hesitation. If you're interested in an all boo bow like Johns bows (not the ones John built for HHA, but his all bamboo bows), You can look up Dave Miller or wait a few months as it looks like Steve Schulz (one of Johns sons) is getting into the bow building side again. Dave was taught by John to build bows in the true hill fashion.
I've got a mid 80's Ted Kramer made HH Big Five. If the brace height is correct and you hold it right there is no shock. Hold wrong with low brace height and it will kick ya.
I would not trade mine for anything. I love it.
I have three Big 5s,all 46#@30.I shoot 2016s that weigh about 520 grains.I grip them tight and I might feel a little thump for the first shot if I haven't shot them for awhile.Mine are fairly new,within the last four years,I've heard some of the older ones can really kick.
i had an apache jerry hill that kicked like a mule so i did the best thing i sold it. and i have never looked back since. but like all bows there are good ones and some bad ones. :thumbsup:
I shoot a 60# HH Big Five, and I get no hand shock at all. I'll be turning 65 in four days, and have shot about every kind of bow over the years, except a compound, never had one of those critters, but I have shot a few R/D bows that had a noticeable kick to them. I do know, if you lock your bow arm, most any longbow will kick like a mule.
I've never shot a Hill bow. All of my traditional experience is with self bows only, but I don't think the hand shock is the result of a straight longbow design. I believe that hand shock is the result of one of two things. Or maybe both things together. The first is a bad tiller. I don't think that's the problem because I've seen pics of them and the tiller looks fine. I think there may be a lot mass in the outer limbs. That leads to handshock every time.
And if there is too much mass in the outer limbs, it will also result in slower arrow speeds.
I hear people talking all the time about these bows kicking. Has anyone shot them through a chrony?? I would bet that they would shoot slower than another bow of the same weight and similar design that doesn't kick like that.
I'm not trying to put these bows down. Some people swear by them. And that's a good enough reason to like them in and of itself. I'm not a speed freak either. I'm just curious and asking questions because in my experience, handshock and slower arrow speeds seem to go hand in hand.
But like I said, I'm coming from a self bow only experience. Maybe other factors can lead to handshock and not effect arrow speed in a fiberglass backed bow?? I don't know. Maybe someone can enligthen me.
There are a few straight limbed bows that perform very well. The Liberty "English" is the most outstanding of them all. It perfroms more like an r/d longbow, but offers the smoothness and great stability of the Hill style bows. The bowyer is Allen Boyce.
Hope this isn't too long, but here goes:
I'm going to venture back into the area of my own opinions/reactions... for whatever they might be worth. I'm not qualified in mechanics, physics or muscle structure, but I suspect all play a part in this issue. People differ in their structure... arm length, height, shooting form, etc. It seems entirely possible that one person could shoot a bow and get shock, and another with the same bow might not. Add to that that each bow is hand made and you can see that even two very similar bows may differ.
Given all of that, I was told that a firm, low wrist, heel down grip was mandatory for this type (Hill type) of bow... that, in fact, they were built and tillered on this basis, with the lower limb designed to accommodate the pressure from the heel of the hand. Also that a bent elbow was critical, that a straight elbow and/or straight wrist grip would equal shock. To me, that makes sense in that the straight wrist/elbow approach is going to provide transfer of any shock, rather than cushioning it.
Now, taking that a hair further, if you think of a bow as a giant flat spring, like any flat vibrating object, it is going to have a node... a spot where there is the least movement. If you grip at the node, you are going to have the point of least movement, or vibration. If your grip moves the node above or below itself, there will be more vibration or movement, i.e. shock.
If the bow's lower limb is tillered based on an assumption that there will be pressure on the heel of the hand, changing that pressure is going to change the vibration of that limb, i.e., move the node, resulting in a greater feeling of vibration or shock in your grip.
As an experiment, I went downstairs and tried gripping first a bow, then a long thick dowel rod, using first a loose grip centered at the thumb joint and with the wrist straight, then with the lower wrist/heel of hand approach. I found that it was nearly impossible to keep any pressure at the heel of the hand and still have any power in the gripping fingers above that point. Conversely, if I gripped firmly with the fingers with no heel pressure, the bow or stick immediately canted forward. My conclusion... for good control and performance, any bow is going to have to be built/tillered with the grip in mind. In a recurve, there is usually a pistol grip designed in to compensate for this effect. If you use a grip that is not compatible with a specific bow's design, you are not going to get good control and may well have moved the vibration node from its designed point, resulting in greater felt vibration.
Sheesh! That's all a handful (no pun intended), but to me, it makes sense.
I suspect that this discussion is much like the endless debate about aiming techniques... there is no one absolute answer and any answers that there are may differ for given individuals. Maybe that's part of the fun.
I will freely admit that there is a general consensus that recurves are easier to shoot and faster. There may be individual exceptions. I think you shoot a Hill because it appeals to you and you want to figure it out, or you don't appreciate the extra challenge, or just prefer the recurve approach, and so, you will not end up being a Hill shooter.
Two comparisons that occurred to me were these:
In fishing rods, there are surf rods, baitcasting rods, spinning rods and fly rods. Each takes a different approach, and you wouldn't use a surf rod with a baitcasting technique, or a flyrod with a spinning rod grip.
As far as bow performance goes, again, you're back to what you want to experience in a bow. Compare it to rifle shooting... you wouldn't go from high performance bench rest shooting to muzzle loading and expect identical performance. (I made that switch years ago.)
The Hill is what it is meant to be... a very traditional bow with performance appropriate to its design and purpose. Whether it's the bow for you will depend on your reactions to it, physical and emotional. I do know that it take practice to get acquainted with it, but that once you do, it's a good friend.
Dick in Seattle
What Ghost Dog said!!
When you set up your Hill bow properly it does not kick.I have sold 5 Morrison Shawnees in the last year and a half and added more Hills.I have 1 Shawnee left that may leave soon.I have a Hill bow on order now and am thinking about my next one already.I remember shooting a fellas Great Northern years ago when I first started,it rattled my teeth and I thought they where junk.A couple years later I shot another fellas that was smooth as silk with no shock.Likely was set up properly.
Best thing to do is try for yourself,play with brace height and shoot a heavy arrow.There is not a better shooting bow out there in my opinion.
Admittedly the R/D bows are faster and easier to shoot!
Dick has done a great job in his explanation. I just bought a new HH Cheetah and it has a different style riser than my Big 5. If I grip it the same as my big 5 it shakes me up a bit. when I grip it slightly different it seems to dissipate. Now the HH bows are not going to be for everyone - only you can decide. It's like a compound isn't for me nor is a recurve. Both feel too much alike for my taste but once again that is me. I like selfbows and striaght limb longbows - I shoot them far more consistently than R/D bows. This has been a result of over 10 years experimenting with over 50 bows and some of them have been remarkable bows but I was not as consistent in my shooting results as I though I should be.
Paul... (8th dwarf)
I do love to shoot a R/D - BBO longbow though or one of my R/D BBH bows. They shoot fast and easy although they are not as fast as some of the extreme hybrids available today.
We all have different views - likes and dislikes on just about everything - personal preference is the main thing. If you like the HH bows then you will shoot them.
Doug
I have two Hill bows built by Craig Ekin and both are of a high quality in workmanship. I'm new to this game but I'm no dummy either and i know for a fact that shooting a Hill bow with no or little hand shock is all in the hold. When i hold mine with a loose grip with the center of my grip on or near the thumb joint they will shoot just as shock free as any other trad bow. I had a martin Savannah and my Hills both shoot a shock free as that one. Granted there not as fast but they will kill a deer just as dead as any other bow. I like mine for the history behind them and their traditional D shape. I will probably have other bows also but i like my Hills.
Ghost dog told yall about The Liberty bow , The English and I love it! The next one which is the closest Hill style bow built like John Schultz to me is either a Sunset-Hill bow built by Nathan Steen or one built by Van Norman of Wildfork Archery . Two class bowman taught by Schultz. I might add bow and arrow setup , draw length should be made custom to the shooter. If the arrow or draw is off by even a inch, you can have problems , handshock etc.. I have studied and asked and this is what the bowyers tell me. Good luck my friends.
I shot a couple at Denton Hill a few years back and it had so much handshock I almost lost a tooth filling.
Definately not my type of bow!
I shot a heavy poundage Big 5 many years ago that a buddy I mine had just gotten. It gave me hand shock so bad I had a migran headache. The shock crawled up my arm, shoulder and bounced around in my head. No joking. With all the sports I played I never felt anything like it. Of coarse back them I shot compomund and stiff armed the longbow. I agree with Archer 1, HH especially must be shot with a bent arm and heel the bow.
I just picked up a Halfbreed that has a smaller handle deisgn then other HH. It's @ 26" and even tho the weight is a bit much at my 27.5" draw (@28" or 2" it jumps almost 20#, what ever happend to 3# per inch LMAO)there is no hand shock. Sending to Hill to bring weight down.
Dick in Seattle,
Well thought out and very well presented...thanks for the time and effort!
longbow,longcurve,recurve.three different types of bows.All shoot and feel different.The straight limb narrow limb will be the most active in youre hand and you need to hold on to it,but its the lightest in the hand and in my oppinon one of the most enjoyable to shoot.Its not going to be the easiest to master and thats why a lot of us shoot them.
Every Hill bow I have ever shot jarred my teeth out. Do not like them for that reason, tried every way I knew of gripping them no help. These were all with heavy arrows too.
Danny
Ghost Dog said it solid right. I shot my Liberty English yesterday and it was smooth. I am amazed at how accurate,fast and forgiving it is also.
One more thumbs-up for the Liberty English. Mine is 59@28 and has no hand shock at all.
I have never even heard of Liberty English shooters experiencing hand shock. I've shot mine with loose grips, firm grips, gripped high, gripped low--no hand shock. Most of my shooting sessions are 50 to 100 arrows flung.
The first thing that struck me when I got it was its smoothness. The next things were how forgiving it was and that it seemed, somehow, to be a harder hitting 59 lb. bow than others at that weight.
Get Mr. Boice to send you one or just ask any Liberty owner if you can fling a few at your next shoot. You'll see what Liberty owners are talking about...
It never ceases to amaze me at the negative rhetoric HH bows receive. Harl said all that needs to be said about them in his first sentence.
Any of you guys want to sell those hard kickin' Hills cheap, just let me know.
Thanks
What Scattershot said!!
Properly set up & held there's no more apparent hand shock than any other bow I've ever shot.
Just like girls, ya can't grip 'em all the same!
Larry
Both of the Hill bows I've tried loosened my fillings.
Obviously other people have had different experiences, but the ones I shot felt like a steel fencepost strung with aircraft cable...
Wow, some of you guys must be extremely "shock" sensitive! I own two Craig Ekin built Hills and absolutely love them both--and, no, they do not rattle my teeth. Sorry but they just don't. Guys who have that experience must be doing something I am not. I have had friends try mine who had heard that claim and were simply amazed as they looked at me and said, "that bow doesn't have any hand shock" then promptly ordered one for themselves. I own a wall full of bows--recurves, hybrids, and Hills and "Hill style" longbows, and the Hills are among my all-time favorites...Dave
I'm bringing and shooting my 70" 60lb @28 "Big 5" to the Joan Leonard memorial bunny shoot this sat. All are welcome to shoot it and perhaps I can take some notes and come up with a general concensus yay or nay? BTW I'm using Beeman 29.5" 400's with 200 grains upfront.
Gene
I'll have my big five 66" 48# @28" at the bunny hunt anyone that wants to try one in a lighter poundage version is welcome.
I'm going to line up behind Scattershot. I have shot Mike G.s Hill & if someone wants go get rid of one of those hard kicking Hills there are some of us here willing to take them. Frank
I've listened to all of this, and it brought to mind my earliest driving experience. More years ago than I like to admit to, I decided to learn to drive. I took the keys and got into my grandad's beautiful 1941 Buick. I was able to start it and get it rolling, but needless to say, I cracked it up. When granddad was through chewing me out for doing it, he asked me to tell him exactly what had happened. I told him that the lousy car wouldn't steer. (It was very heavy, practically a tank, and had no power steering.) I had much more to say about the "lousy" car. When I wound down, granddad asked me if I wanted to keep cussing the car, or learn to drive it. Wise man...
Since then, I have learned to do many things, sometimes because I needed to, sometimes just to prove to myself that I could. A couple of years back, I decided to learn to shoot a bow, because my eyes weren't up to doing well with a muzzle loader any more. Just a few months ago, I decided to learn to knit... just because. I'm working on my third sweater, a rather difficult one. I have tried a few things and not succeeded because I was simply personally not able to, for whatever reason. However, I have never tried something and quit because it was the something's fault, when I knew perfectly well that many other folks had succeeded. Granddad taught me better than that.
Incidentally, a few years later, when I had a drivers license and convinced him I was a good driver, granddad gave me that Buick.
Dick in Seattle
To those of you who have a Hill bow and have execessive handshock: what are your arrow speeds like ?
Someone once said you either love them or hate them.
I have a Craig Ekin built Wesley Special and it shoots as smooth as any recurve I've shot and that includes a couple of Black Widows. I think the problem with bows that people think are shockey is a brace height problem. Also the workmanship on Craig's bows are second to none in my opinion.
I agree with Dick in Seattle. This whole thing reminds me of an article I saw many years ago on shooting the 44.cal mag. One guy said it kicked so hard he wore gloves to keep the grip checkering from taking the skin of his hand. Another man said it was like shooting any other large hand gun. To me they all shock somewhat. Only 2 bows, both Adcock`s were "dead in the hand" upon release for me. Notice I said "dead in the hand". I am sure there may be more but I have not had shot them yet.
Here's my take on this issue. One of the main features of these bows is that they are very, very light in total weight. And a joy to carry as a result. They are light and lively, not 'dead in the hand'-- they are alive! If something is wrong, in the technique, in the tuning, or in the tiller (here I am thinking about the balance of the limbs one to another), there is no heavy mass to absorb the error. You may well feel it.
Some bowyers over the years seem to have more balance problems over the years with this design. The current production from the Ekin family of Howard Hill Archery are beautifully made and shoot sweetly.
Most archers who have got their form and tuning properly set up report little or no shock. And many prefer these bows to all others and own a number of them.
So how to set them up? I like about 7" of brace height, 500 grain or heavier arrows and a moderately light grip. But actually, I don't find them to be too sensitive about these points and I think most experienced archers find them easy to tune and shoot.
I guess the thing to do is shoot a couple before you lay your money down. Most owners would be proud to have you shoot their bows. But I urge you to try them. There is no more beloved longbow.
QuoteHowever, I have never tried something and quit because it was the something's fault, when I knew perfectly well that many other folks had succeeded. Granddad taught me better than that.
I like that, Dick. Good stuff. I hope someday to be able to afford a good Hill. I have a Jerry Hill which is, according to my research, a very poor imitation. I'm told that my bow should nearly break my arm from the handshock, but it seems smooth enough to me.
I'll add my vote to those who said, "Send them to me! I'll take those shocky bows off your hands!
Guys, I have a DAS, Dale Dye, several Widows and other top name longbows including 2 Howard Hill's made by Craig. I shoot the Hill's more than the other bows. They are fun to shoot, more accurate than I can shoot them and they really like heavy arrows. We are all different and like different bows. I don't understand why some people have to "bash" or downgrade other bows. I don't have a problem with someone stating they like one bow better than another. Life is too short not to have fun and to be nice to other people.
Craig :thumbsup:
Joe
Its likeRocky says Adrian - after a while it starts to sting. :banghead:
Good thing I love recurves, they are obviously the female of the species. :goldtooth:
I am hearing so many generalization being made here. Lets remember that what one person says "kicks like a mule" another may say "it don't kick at all". Personally, I love my HH bows. Yes I can feel a jolt from my 74# Wesley, but it really doesn't bother me or make me flinch. I enjoy shooting it tremendously. It is the most stable, quick pointing, and quiet bow that I own. I can shoot it as accurate as my Adcock ACS. Did I mention that the HH is also the most fun to shoot?
I have two Howard hill bows, one 51# and one 70# made by Steve Childers (taught by John Strunk) and I love them. If you shoot them like Howard Hill described ,with bent elbow, they are a pleasure to shoot. My old bones would'nt tolerate much shock!
BillJ.... I've had several of Jerry's bows and found them quite satisfactory. Only reason I parted with them was to expand the Howard Hill collection. I promised my wife I wouldn't get more bows than there were pegs on my bow wall.... Been selling off the recurves and most of the non-HH's. I figure I am good for six more HH's :^)
Dick in Seattle
Dick, considering the number of HH bows you now have, you must have a lot of pegs LOL
Joe
Dick; I have several of Jerry's bows too and they shoot fine. Longbows are not for everyone, just like some firearms are not for everyone.
I purchased a 75# HH Bib 5 in the mid '80's and shot it until I sold it about 2 years ago. I kind of remember on shot in 1994 that didn't kick like a mule but I could never repeat that shot again. Much as I loved that bow and liked the way it pointed and shot I finally got fed up with being severely hurt every single time I let and arrow go. I think I might have shot a telephone pole that one time I had no hand shock. Call me a wimp but I don't think any bow should do more damage to the shooter than it does to the game you are hunting. I shoot and love the new hybrids and contrary to some views expressed believe that they combine the best features from longbows and recurves.
I traded for a Wesley Special once. Worst trade I ever made. It was slow, sluggish and way more of a "jolt" when shooting than my Zebra. No matter what I did to it, grip, brace height etc.
Now compared to a broom handle, it shot pretty good! Traded it off for a 7 Lakes. Much better trade!
Had a buddy that complained his Big 5 jolted pretty hard. We raised the brace height about an inch and it actully shot pretty good. No worse than any other "D" style LB.
My belief is that any "D" style will shoot a little "harder" than a R/D style. But after you shoot it for awhile it's hardly noticeable.
Guess it all depends on what floats your boat!
LD
Having owned a Don Brown longbow which was a Hill style, a Schulz made bow, and I still have a couple of other Hill style bows made by now deceased direct disciples of HH, I have made a few observations.
One is the grip type is big determining factor, for more comfort I prefer a full grip vs a thinner dished type. Brace height is another aspect that I have found to greatly change the comfort level, and as others have stated, >6.75" is about the point of being the most comfortable . Higher arrow weight is absolutely paramount to how well the bow shoots. Finally, over torquing the grip will almost always make for an uncomfortable shot. None of this is unknown to most on this site but I think that these observations, if ignored, can make for a disappointing experience when shooting a Hill style bow.
To me, Hill style bows are analogous to driving a heavy duty powerful truck that lacks power steering and has an unassisted manual clutch and tranny . Unabashed power but you have to accommodate it as it won't accommodate you.
Finally, I do agree that the D style longbow is the pinnacle for absolute "pick a spot" style shooting. Just as a finely made double gun goes where you look, a Hill style bow seems to want to to follow the eye to the target.
DD