OK, I need to air out an idea that has been milling around in my mind for years. Why are bow windows and shelves cut the way they traditionally are? That goes for Trad Bows and those with the Training wheels on them. Logic tells me the riser windows should be cut on the other side. :saywhat: Bear with me....
So take your basic right handed bow. The bow is held by the left hand and the window is cut on the left side of the bow, the string is pulled back by the right hand. Since the left hand is fully occupied by holding onto the bow, the majority of the moving around stuff is performed by the right hand. This would include loading/knocking an arrow onto the string. But since the window is cut facing left the arrow (and broadhead) needs to pass from the right side of the archer's body (presumably from a quiver of some type), across the vulnerable string, onto the left side of the string for perch upon the shelf. Most of us will tilt the bow horizontal or at a 45* angle to facilitate loading the next arrow. Why isn't the window cut on the right side so that the arrow can be laid upon the shelf, by the right hand, in a more easily facilitated manner? (Opposite applies to the southpaws). The bow would remain upright (verticle) and that arrow would just rest upon the right side facing shelf. The broadhead wouldn't come anywhere near the string. There would be less bow movement and the reloading process seams like it would be done faster. Granted all of us have become accustomed to a righty shooting off a left facing window/shelf, just like on this side of the pond we all drive cars with a steering wheel on the left side and operate that motor vehicle on the right side of the road. I get that. But going beyond "that's the way we've always done it" argument, what prompted bowyers to start making windows/shelves on the illogical side? :dunno:
Ever since watching the impressive you tube archer Lars Andersen https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEG-ly9tQGk (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BEG-ly9tQGk) this issue of equipment has bugged me. So why is modern Traditional archery performed in this manner.
It's not the illogical side, when drawing a string back with three (or two fingers) the tension is applied to the right side this causes the string to slightly twist and push the arrow to the right. If you shoot a left handed bow right handed then there can be tendency for the arrow to come off the rest.
Lars Anderson is shooting off the hand, there is more friction and in essence a groove the arrow is sitting in when drawing so it's less of an issue. He can shoot fast but have a look at what he is shooting at and the real level of accuracy, sure you want to hit a man size target anywhere then it's fine, you want a kill shot on an animal not so much.
Give it a try and see how you get on.
If you shot with a thumb ring, you would want the window on the other side. It has to do with which way the arrow is being pressured when you draw. split/three under will twist the arrow towards a standard riser.
Regarding Lars Anderson, I'm of the opinion that he has done more damage to traditional archery than good. He's shooting a very light bow (which wouldn't pierce armor), with no form, and some weird parkour thing going on (a good way to impale yourself on a broadhead). It's not safe for the archer, and yields no discernible benefit in any sort of actual combat. Try doing the things he does with a heavy bow, and broadheads on the end. You will need stitches before it's over.
I was hesitant to make a reference to the Lars Andersen issue. I agree with your comments about his shooting style. The only reason I made reference to the man or the you tube video was the issue of the side of the bow in which the window is cut.
Lars Andersen not withstanding, that doesn't necessarily rule out the original question though. Your comment about using a lefty bow by a right handed shooter is valid, except that usually the left side of the grip of a left handed bow is normally hollowed out or missing, as is the right side of the grip on a right handed bow. I still don't see the logic of why we need to cross over the bow when knocking an arrow.
I think if you look at the few videoes of Ishi drawing and shooting a bow, he holds the bow near horizontal and places the arrow on the right side (top) with a right hand draw. That said, it looks like some leverage is lost while using gravity to keep the arrow on the bow.
https://goo.gl/images/yBY3vZ
Quote from: Mike Orton on January 20, 2019, 04:27:14 PM
Your comment about using a lefty bow by a right handed shooter is valid, except that usually the left side of the grip of a left handed bow is normally hollowed out or missing, as is the right side of the grip on a right handed bow. I still don't see the logic of why we need to cross over the bow when knocking an arrow.
Sorry, I don't think I was very clear. It's torque from the string hand that necessitates the riser shape, not the bow hand. If I shoot a left handed bow, right handed, my rotational draw will pull the arrow off the shelf and to the right. It would be different if I shot with a thumb ring, where my index finger on my draw hand would push the arrow into the side of the same left handed riser.
How could you get any kind of alignment,(arrow under the correct eye) drawing the bow on the opposite side?
I have a rain barrel that catches water from the garage roof for the plants. The fluoride in our town water makes it not so good for plants. That 25 gallon barrel, at the corner of the garage and four feet off to the side of my four foot wide target, will never over flow. I tried shooting a left hand bow right handed, like Lars does, one time.
What is he shooting? About 10#?
Quote from: Trumpkin the Dwarf on January 20, 2019, 04:39:54 PM
Quote from: Mike Orton on January 20, 2019, 04:27:14 PM
Your comment about using a lefty bow by a right handed shooter is valid, except that usually the left side of the grip of a left handed bow is normally hollowed out or missing, as is the right side of the grip on a right handed bow. I still don't see the logic of why we need to cross over the bow when knocking an arrow.
Sorry, I don't think I was very clear. It's torque from the string hand that necessitates the riser shape, not the bow hand. If I shoot a left handed bow, right handed, my rotational draw will pull the arrow off the shelf and to the right. It would be different if I shot with a thumb ring, where my index finger on my draw hand would push the arrow into the side of the same left handed riser.
Now that argument has logic and makes sense.
Quote from: achigan on January 20, 2019, 04:35:14 PM
I think if you look at the few videoes of Ishi drawing and shooting a bow, he holds the bow near horizontal and places the arrow on the right side (top) with a right hand draw. That said, it looks like some leverage is lost while using gravity to keep the arrow on the bow.
Yes, that's what I had in mind....forget Lars Andersen and his 10# bow. This thread was supposed to be about which side of the bow the arrow gets knocked on and consequently which side of the bow the bowyer cuts the window. Ishi used a handmade self bow with no window cut. Modern trad archery has a different style of bow design with a cut to zero (or near zero) window. Seems like Ishi and his clan, as well as the Egyptians mentioned in the you tube video above, had a better idea of placing the arrow on the opposite side of the riser than we normally do today. I just wonder if any bowyers out there have explored this idea in their designs? Perhaps a new improved version of the mousetrap...
Well, if I try it I find my x-ray vision doesn't let me see my target through the bows riser. I'd rather just look down the arrow shaft.
Quote from: BAK on January 20, 2019, 05:39:38 PM
Well, if I try it I find my x-ray vision doesn't let me see my target through the bows riser. I'd rather just look down the arrow shaft.
But....if the window was cut on the side of the bow (Right side window for Right handed bow) you would be able to see without your X-Ray vision. You'd still look down the arrow with the dominant right eye. Your comment is correct if shooting a self bow without a window.
If you try shooting a left handed bow (one with the shelf on the right) right handed, with a conventional split finger or three under draw, you will answer your own question.
Quote from: mahantango on January 20, 2019, 05:46:30 PM
If you try shooting a left handed bow (one with the shelf on the right) right handed, with a conventional split finger or three under draw, you will answer your own question.
will do.
pavan... LOL!
I have always been under the impression that native Americans knocked and shot on the right side of the bow for a right handed shooter and vise Vera for a lefty. This way when they were riding horses and shooting, they didn't have to finagle around the bow to knock the arrow.
Quote from: Mike Orton on January 20, 2019, 05:13:32 PM
Quote from: achigan on January 20, 2019, 04:35:14 PM
I think if you look at the few videoes of Ishi drawing and shooting a bow, he holds the bow near horizontal and places the arrow on the right side (top) with a right hand draw. That said, it looks like some leverage is lost while using gravity to keep the arrow on the bow.
I just wonder if any bowyers out there have explored this idea in their designs? Perhaps a new improved version of the mousetrap...
yeah...there are bows built with two shelves...even nowadayze...one on either side if the handle (grip) grab one (if u can find one) and have a blast..shoot it both ways and report your findings.
Regardless of what side of the bow the arrow is on I wouldn't want that SOB shooting at me. 10# bow or not! He's pretty impressive.
Pretty sure but not positive enough to debate it, but I think Ishi gripped the bow string totally different, more like how you shoot with a thumb ring without the ring part, been a while since I seen that photo though
Quote from: old_goat2 on January 21, 2019, 03:51:27 AM
Pretty sure but not positive enough to debate it, but I think Ishi gripped the bow string totally different, more like how you shoot with a thumb ring without the ring part, been a while since I seen that photo though
Edit, link to Ishi shooting
https://www.google.com/search?client=tablet-android-dell&source=android-home&tbm=isch&source=hp&ei=I4hFXOiLGs3YsQWnqq7QBQ&q=ishi+shooting+style&oq=ishi+shooting&gs_l=mobile-gws-wiz-img.1.0.0i24.2451.9510..11334...1.0..0.181.1036.1j6......0....1.......4..41j0.5HBkpzpcSWQ#imgrc=MKYgXi6Sy2H0CM
Actually, I'm shooting a thumb release, with the arrow and shelf on the left side of the bow (right handed shooter). This way I get the arrow under my eye, can still use a bow quiver, draw another 3" (vs fingers), AND get an incredibly clean release. Works very well for me -- just have to drop my thumb 3/8" under the nock instead of snugging tight to it.
With a right hand bow with a shelf cut on the right side of that bow and with the tension your fingers put on the bow string... I think if you were in a hunting situation and had to cant your bow to any degree you could run into problems with your arrow coming off the shelf.
Bows have been shot many different ways before modern times. Whatever it took to bring home the meat, there are accounts of all different types of holds and draw techniques. Whatever sends the arrow to the beast...bows pre-modern times generally were not a very heavy pull either so pulling with different techniques was more doable. Try pulling a bow with a Native American string pinch and you'll find it hard when the draw weight increases.
Like this?
I have also been contemplating this very same idea. When I get serious about it, I plan on getting an old Bear with dual shelves and sight windows to play with. I also admit that torque on the string makes some sense to me.
Did not imply that it could not be done. But in a situation where you had to shoot your bow on a slight, or severe angle, with your fingers putting torque to the string to at least help with keeping the arrow on the shelf of the bow, and not trying to remove it from the shelf. And that in a fast hunting situation that it would be easier for most hunters to execute the shot. For most shooters i think it would be hard not to torque the string with a hunting poundage bow, whether you be a left or right handed shooter, and you pull the string with your fingers.
Right or left -- just the archer's paradox. Look it up if you aren't familiar with it. Smarter Every Day, a YouTuber, did a great slow-mo video of this with Byron Ferguson.
As for Lars, he's got skill. But there's a huge difference between combat accurate and precision accurate. I wouldn't want to face Lars in un-armored combat with a bow. But I'd be curious how he compares with Olympic archers at 70M. It's like comparing a good CQB fighter with a skilled marksman -- fundamentally different games/skillsets. Lars simplifies it as one game to sensationalize it. Sort of like wrestling vs Jiu Jitsu -- similar tools, different games. Being skilled at one helps to learn the other. But you'll still fail at the game you haven't trained for.
There's another YouTuber who recently put out a "Native American Archery" video, inspired by Lars. He mentions how some tribes used different bows for hunting and warfare. Hunting bows were heavy-draw & meant for a single, precise, lethal shot. War bows were light-draw & meant for a high-rate of fire at fairly short ranges with a much rougher kind of accuracy. I can't attest to its historical accuracy but it makes good sense to me. At 10 yards where any hit counts, shoot whatever side of the bow you want. Pinch draw will also affect the paradox.
Take a non-center shot bow. Shoot it with a centered jaw mechanical release. Film it with your best video camera and watch what the arrow does. It will bend just about the same as a finger released arrow. Into the bow and then around the bow. It is simple physics. Isi, I do not want to dis on his shooting what so ever, but it is such a different stature from what we all do, it would be very foreign thing to attempt. There is a picture of me shooting when I was four years old. I shot facing the camera, with the bow canted just Ishi with a lap fingered release. I remember when I was five that a man taught me how to pull with my three fingers and put the arrow on the other side of the bow. He said, "Stand sidewayser and look left." About 6 years later, that same man came by when lightning sheared a big chunk of wood off the perfectly straight ash tree. That lightning dried ash was amazing. He made two billet joint bows, with Hill style grips, sinew and clarified calf skin backed. A 60" for me and a 66" for himself. I shot my first pheasants with that bow and a bunch of rabbits. One of the best shooting bows that I ever owned. Sorry, but the Hill way was better than the Ishi way for me.
Quote from: YosemiteSam on January 22, 2019, 03:03:43 PM
Right or left -- just the archer's paradox. Look it up if you aren't familiar with it. Smarter Every Day, a YouTuber, did a great slow-mo video of this with Byron Ferguson.
As for Lars, he's got skill. But there's a huge difference between combat accurate and precision accurate. I wouldn't want to face Lars in un-armored combat with a bow. But I'd be curious how he compares with Olympic archers at 70M. It's like comparing a good CQB fighter with a skilled marksman -- fundamentally different games/skillsets. Lars simplifies it as one game to sensationalize it. Sort of like wrestling vs Jiu Jitsu -- similar tools, different games. Being skilled at one helps to learn the other. But you'll still fail at the game you haven't trained for.
There's another YouTuber who recently put out a "Native American Archery" video, inspired by Lars. He mentions how some tribes used different bows for hunting and warfare. Hunting bows were heavy-draw & meant for a single, precise, lethal shot. War bows were light-draw & meant for a high-rate of fire at fairly short ranges with a much rougher kind of accuracy. I can't attest to its historical accuracy but it makes good sense to me. At 10 yards where any hit counts, shoot whatever side of the bow you want. Pinch draw will also affect the paradox.
I'd like to see the historical source stating native Americans used different bows for war than hunting. I have a Native American historian as a relative who got me into this whole traditional thing 30 years ago and has an archive of detailed tracings and photos of bows from public and private collections, never a mention of war bows vs hunting bows..sounds made up to fit a theory (by Lars) which happens a lot on the net.
Quote from: Overspined on January 23, 2019, 07:24:14 AM
Quote from: YosemiteSam on January 22, 2019, 03:03:43 PM
Right or left -- just the archer's paradox. Look it up if you aren't familiar with it. Smarter Every Day, a YouTuber, did a great slow-mo video of this with Byron Ferguson.
As for Lars, he's got skill. But there's a huge difference between combat accurate and precision accurate. I wouldn't want to face Lars in un-armored combat with a bow. But I'd be curious how he compares with Olympic archers at 70M. It's like comparing a good CQB fighter with a skilled marksman -- fundamentally different games/skillsets. Lars simplifies it as one game to sensationalize it. Sort of like wrestling vs Jiu Jitsu -- similar tools, different games. Being skilled at one helps to learn the other. But you'll still fail at the game you haven't trained for.
There's another YouTuber who recently put out a "Native American Archery" video, inspired by Lars. He mentions how some tribes used different bows for hunting and warfare. Hunting bows were heavy-draw & meant for a single, precise, lethal shot. War bows were light-draw & meant for a high-rate of fire at fairly short ranges with a much rougher kind of accuracy. I can't attest to its historical accuracy but it makes good sense to me. At 10 yards where any hit counts, shoot whatever side of the bow you want. Pinch draw will also affect the paradox.
I'd like to see the historical source stating native Americans used different bows for war than hunting. I have a Native American historian as a relative who got me into this whole traditional thing 30 years ago and has an archive of detailed tracings and photos of bows from public and private collections, never a mention of war bows vs hunting bows..sounds made up to fit a theory (by Lars) which happens a lot on the net.
It would take a loooooong time to search the evidence for this among all the various Native American cultures to disprove his idea. I know here in CA, many of the valley cultures used different bows for different purposes. Small game bows were reported to be made from just about any stick lying around while big game bows were often the famous sinew-backed juniper (incense cedar) short bows made by the Miwuks & other groups that lived in the Sierras. Not the war bow/hunting bow combo that the YouTuber reports but the same idea of having different bows for different purposes.
Personally, I like to have more than one bow, more than one rifle, more than one car. Seems like common sense to have more than one of any tool you rely on. Again, the YouTube guy might not have any evidence for his claim -- I don't really know either way. But I wouldn't say it's outlandish either.