In his book, "Hunting the Hard Way", Howard said he was not good enough to shoot recurves. That he could not shoot them well. Has anybody figured out why that was?
Probably because he was selling Longbows. Howard could probably put a string on a 2x4 and shoot better than most of us. He was as good a salesman as he was an archer.
I think he said it was because they were too sensitive for him.
you have to remember back in the day "recurves" looked nothing like we have now. they were longbows with a recurved tips, not much limb stability at all and no mass to compensate for forgiveness.
Quote from: Ari_Bonn on December 31, 2018, 08:04:16 PM
you have to remember back in the day "recurves" looked nothing like we have now. they were longbows with a recurved tips, not much limb stability at all and no mass to compensate for forgiveness.
There were recurves like that, but there were also recurves like the 1959 Bear Kodiak, a classic then and a reborn classic now. I suspect that Howard was just being Howard, and since he didn't choose to clarify his remarks before he died, we just have to live with them the way he said them. Trying to guess what he meant now is futile, in my opinion. We know there are many fine longbows and recurves now, and many fine longbow and recurve shooters now. As always, you pays your money and you takes your choice.
Since the book which contained the original statement was published in about 1953. We can figure that the bows Howard based his statements on were pre 1950. Not much '59 Kodiak experience.
I totally agree with Ari Bonn. The recurves Hill referred to were different animals. In choosing a hunting bow in 1950 a hunter would have been wise to listen to Hill's advice.
All good points. :archer2:
When you look at Hill shooting, to a longbow his variations were not shooting flaws, but to a skinny tip recurve they would be. Some old bows needed to be released rather delicately, Hill said that his backed bamboo sort of recurve was so accurate and so fast that he felt sorry for his buddies that did not have the same, at least he thought that until he tried to shoot some grouse with it. i was told that Howard did change his opinions about that later life, but it was also reported that even the Hill recurve in the 60s was not enough for him to change his opinion about recurve sensitivities. I think his standards were a bit different. We take a recurve and almost hit a pine cone at 30 yards and declare, "what a great bow I almost hit that pine cone". Hill takes a recurve and misses that same pine cone and declares it an outrageous miss, because the bow was too sensitive to be accurate in those conditions.
Pretty much what everyone has said up to this point. :archer2:
What I took from it was that the longbow had a bigger sweet spot, Being more forgiving when shooting out of position where you may short draw and such. I agree with Charlie these recurves we shoot now are a whole different animal with a lot more stability. Some of these carbon limb curves now have a draw cycle that nearly has a let off after you get the hooks rolled over giving them the same big sweet spot advantage. At least that's my take on it which ain't worth 2 nickels!
I shoot both longbow and recurve.
I make my own longbows and tiller them for equal limb timing on the tillering tree.
Longbows are just smoother shooting in my opinion.
I truly do believe that longbows are easier to shoot than a recurve.
Stability and forgiveness is a fickle thing. I have had bows that have the bottom drop out with just a half inch short of my my already shorter than average draw. I was thinking a while back how did I ever have over a 28" draw, then looking through old pictures, I saw how I did that. No wonder why I couldn't shoot up hill or anything that moved. One thing about a longbow it has a nice balance when not shooting. I am pretty certain that Howard Hill did not go around in the 60s shooting every new bow made to convince himself to go recurve, but i do know that he was into designing bows and had the blueprints for what came to be a very popular recurve without his name on it. Ask Jerry.
I hunted with recurves for many years....then got bitten and immersed myself in Hill style and straight-end longbows. What has been said about longbows being forgiving has been my experiences. Shooting from odd angles and stances is where the long bows excel.
I was hunting from a treestand and a deer approached me from the rear - right of my stand's position. I turned and faced the tree....leaned out to my left as far as I could and had to keep the bow near vertical to clear the trunk of the tree. Deer was about 15 yards away and quartering ever so slightly to. I got maybe 3/4 draw if that. Hit was a little higher than I was aiming but I killed the deer and a very short blood trail.
I am convinced if that opportunity had happened when I was carrying the recurve I would have missed the entire animal cleanly.
A few years back hunting the first year of my JD Berry duo shooter, I had a forky come by me so close, that I could have touched it with my bow. I was on my feet, because I had just moved a nasty blown down locust branch full of nasty spikes. Then his big brother came by about 15 feet away, I pulled back and stuck one of spikes of the branch that I just moved deep into my arm, the string slipped off my fingers at about a 15" draw. Good thing the bow hand rises faster than the drawing hand, I lobbed a slow one over the bucks back. He ran off about 40 or so yards and stood looking away from. One of the few times that I could take a shot without having to contort anything. Most of the time every shot has something, this time the only thing affecting the situation was that i was bleeding out from the ouchy dingus that locust spike gave me. Heck, I could have made that shot with a recurve with sights on it even. When I had a recurve with sights, I never got that kind of a shot. Back then, I thought if I had a really short recurve, I thought that I could take chip shots out of tight cover pockets, but the deer stood 40 yards off and laughed at me, because they knew that with my super short and slow three under recurve that I couldn't shoot that far. With a good longbow, one can take the shots that a recurve with sights can take and take the odd contorted chip shots and do it all with fluid speed. I suspect that accuracy with fluid speed is where Hill found trouble with the wave of 58 and 60 inch recurves of the 1960s. I know that some could shoot them fine, but the deep grips and balance was very foreign to what Hill was accustomed to.
Howard made self bows in the early years, and eventually designed and built what we call the American Semi-Longbow of tempered laminated bamboo. It wasn't until he met Frank Eicholtz a bowyer in Southern Ca did he get Frank to put glass on one of his bows. Eventually he used Gordon fiberglass. Bob Burton's book looks at bows built by Howard through the years. Some bowyers have concluded that Howard stopped building bows in the 1950's to devote his time to Africa, exhibitions, etc. Howard had used several bows in Africa that were all bamboo (no glass). Howard Hill Archery formed in the mid-50's had a number of different bowyers, and they made longbows, until people shooting field tournaments turned to recurves by Smithwick and others. Howard Hill Archery made recurves to stay in business, but when Howard retired in 1965 and sold the company to Dick Garver at Shawnee Sports and Ted Ekin took Howard Hill Archery name and moved to MT. The recurve Hill built back in the late 1930's was probably all bamboo and ultra sensitive compared to his favorite longbow, Grandpa. Most of what we have learned was written by John Schulz, Craig Ekin, Bob Burton and others. I bought my first Howard Hill Longbow from Hugh Rich in Glendale, CA., he ordered it from Shawnee Sports in 1962.
If Howard coukd out shoot me with a long bow I could take him to school with a recurve....hmmm actually I doubt that lol.
Hill shot a shotgun left handed, bet if he had a left hand Bear recurve, he could have shot that better than his longbow. Or just maybe, bows that didn't come with a butt load of hand shock freaked him out and caused a flinch. Back in my heavy bow days, those Schulz longbows and Bear takedowns caused me to flinch, just knowing that the hand shock was not coming.
While reading recently I found this quote from Howard Hill. "Let me say again "Thank You" for giving me this opportunity to speak a word for archery and for hunting archery in particular. I am proud to say that my first love was and still is, hunting archery. The more primitive or old fashioned the bow the better. The less advantages one takes of any wild creature, the more sporting, is the way I think of it."
I think that Howard had always favored longbows and felt they were more forgiving, stable, and versatile in hunting situations, therefore, he made that statement in a joking manner. Sort of like Arnold Palmer saying he wasn't good enough to use a driver! As someone else pointed out the recurves back then were far different from what we have today and perhaps at the weights that Howard was shooting it was difficult to build that type of recurve or they just didn't hold up.
Since Howard was such a natural athlete and had incredible strength and hand-eye coordination I doubt if any bow recurve or longbow would be difficult for him to master. I think he went with what he knew and since he made all of his own equipment, including longbows, he didn't feel the need to change or switch. Also, Howard was known to be a practical joker and enjoy a good joke or ruse so it might have been a little dig to his recurve toting buddies.
For the same reason you see so many twisted limbs on recurves but can't hardly twist a longbow limb. Stability. >>>>-----> ken
If it ain't broke.(https://i.imgur.com/qpzgceD.jpg)
I've never stood next to a recurve shooter and thought man, what a quiet bow. Longbows are ultra quiet, I've also never seen a thread asking why their longbow is so loud. I see it commonly for recurves. I'll shoot either but prefer a longbow. I also favor a heel down design like a hill bow or a R/D that's designed heel down. It seems to suit hunting well because it's a strong grip and easy to quickly repeat. I can shoot it with gloves when it's cold. The longbow designs don't leave me wishing for a recurve, they're fast, quiet, stable, and only a tad longer. And they don't collect so much brush in the limbs. I just can't see a reason to go curve.
Owen Jeffery told me at the time Howard was not set up to make and sell recurves. Therefore no reason to promote them,however, you can get a reprint of the Howard hill 1965 catalog from Cornell press. Including kids bows there are 9 different recurve for sale and one longbow!
Quote from: MikeNova on January 05, 2019, 11:14:27 AM
Owen Jeffery told me at the time Howard was not set up to make and sell recurves. Therefore no reason to promote them,however, you can get a reprint of the Howard hill 1965 catalog from Cornell press. Including kids bows there are 9 different recurve for sale and one longbow!
Mike but I don't think there is any doubt in anyone's mind he preferred a longbow for his personal hunting and shooting. I think any savvy businessman is going to sell what it is in demand even if it goes against his personal preferences. I think it was Howard being Howard and he was teasing when he said it, instead of going into detail as to why the longbow was his personal preference, he made a humorous remark instead or at least that is the way I took it.
I'm not a bowyer and I could be completely wrong on this but I also think that the weight bows that Howard shot and the materials they had available back then would lend themselves to Howard building and using the longbows he favored. I know I saw a few videos of Howard building and tillering bows and I believe they were self or composite bows without any glass in them. Maybe the recurve designs before fiberglass became widely used didn't hold up or weren't easy enough for Howard to make in his shop. Whatever it was we all know it was not because Howard wasn't good enough to shoot a recurve so that's why I'm going with the tongue in cheek angle.
Good Hunting.
Roger
Prob so there's that story I've read often about him going into eicholtz shop and grabbing a recurve and then doing some of the greatest shooting eichholtz had ever seen then Howard turned around and said "I ain't never been able to shoot one of these"
Quote from: MikeNova on January 05, 2019, 01:23:52 PM
Prob so there's that story I've read often about him going into eicholtz shop and grabbing a recurve and then doing some of the greatest shooting eichholtz had ever seen then Howard turned around and said "I ain't never been able to shoot one of these"
Mike that sounds like something Howard would do! Like I said I think the statement was made in jest and Howard never meant it to be anything but that but then these things take on a life of there own! I bet Howard is getting a good chuckle out of it now watching us all speculate on what he meant! :biglaugh:
Roger,
As Schulz says in his video, he dominated the sport of archery, and we all know how difficult it is to do what he did. Now we look for explanation in his writings and anything we can find about his thoughts and secrets, because no matter how many times I've watched the videos and film of Howard shooting, I can't seem to consistently "hit em like Howard Hill". Roger, I agree with much of what he said was in jest, seemed to have quite the sense of humor, and we may read into it too much.
Who is eicholtz?
He owned a bow shop and is credited w being the first man to back bows with fiberglass if I understand correctly. He backed Howard's bows with fiberglass.
Ah, OK. I've never run across that name.
I shoot a longbow better than I shoot a recurve and I think it is because the recurve is more sensitive. If I practice hard with just a recurve I can shoot it OK but with a longbow all I have to do is shoot it.
If I shot as well as Howard with a longbow why would I change.
Quote from: Overspined on January 06, 2019, 09:36:13 AM
As Schulz says in his video, he dominated the sport of archery, and we all know how difficult it is to do what he did. Now we look for explanation in his writings and anything we can find about his thoughts and secrets, because no matter how many times I've watched the videos and film of Howard shooting, I can't seem to consistently "hit em like Howard Hill". Roger, I agree with much of what he said was in jest, seemed to have quite the sense of humor, and we may read into it too much.
Overspined I wish I could have met him, he was larger than life not only because of his shooting but he had the presence and personality as well! Not many guys could match him on the range or in the woods and even the guys who were really good said just when you thought he couldn't up his game anymore he would pull off a shot that would leave you speechless! A true sportsman and showman that the archery world may never see the likes of again! He could also keep everyone in camp entertained and laughing the whole time, he was the real deal in every way!
Roger,
Rabbits and quail, That is what Hill had over us. Because of various farm practices those numbers are no where near where they were in the 60s, but in the 60s all I heard around here was that they were no where near where they were in the 50s. Hill loved hunting small game. Think about it, what else can prepare one and show proof of shooting skills more than small game hunting where one gets lots of chances to prove and improve one's skill. To be honest if we had the rabbit numbers that we did in the 60s, I would probably mostly hunt rabbits. Over 1500 bunnies while he was still keeping track of his hunting kills. According to Schulz, he never tired of rabbit hunting like he did with deer hunting. Give that a little thought, today that would be a complete impossibility even with a shotgun.
I can relate to that. Assuming a bountiful quantity of rabbits, there has to be a lot more shooting for the amount of time spent doing other hunting chores hunting rabbits than just about anything else. And the meat of cottontails, while meager, is very tasty.
The only places that I have to hunt, that have hunt-able numbers of cottontails are large messy farm groves. Thank God for large messy farm groves. Nothing is more fun than a back quiver full of shoot away blunts, except for maybe adding a good dog that sicks close that has a nose full of rabbit. I currently am lacking that rabbit dog, so life is hard.
I received a copy of "Hunting The Hard Way" for Christmas. He spends several pages talking about the subject of "sensitive bows". He considered the recurve to be too sensitive and that was why he couldn't shoot them as well as he could longbows. Given the tone of these pages, I do not believe he said this in jest.
You have to remember ol'Howard was making these shots:
(http://i.imgur.com/LXiyreS.jpg) (https://imgur.com/LXiyreS)
(http://i.imgur.com/rLU6N04.jpg) (https://imgur.com/rLU6N04)
(http://i.imgur.com/rCEDksW.jpg) (https://imgur.com/rCEDksW)
(http://i.imgur.com/g0hmZOg.jpg) (https://imgur.com/g0hmZOg)
In the photo with Hill shooting two arrows, he is using his finger as an arrow rest. In a video that i have with one shot he was floating the top arrow and the second attempt, he has an arrow rest taped to his bow. I tried that once with an 80 pound bow and almost broke my holder finger. Sticking a Pararest on the side of the bow works way betterer, sort of. Back in early 70s a goof ball here did that with the added arrow rest and shot a deer from a tree stand, both arrows,1818s out of 58 pound Bear recurve, went through the deer, needless to say it was down and dead very quickly.
Can you shoot 2 at once on either side if that duo shooter?
No, but how often did you come across a perfect ambush spot that does NOT work for your right hand bows, but would be perfect for a left hand bow. I have many times that i walk in with a left or right hand quiver get to where i need to go and find the wind drift is wrong, but to correct it, i need to sit where my chosen side will not work, so i take off the back quiver put a couple of easy to reach arrows out and switch hands. I work to have as an identical form both left and right hand as possible, that it does not change my aim, my point on range is the same for either side.