Trad Gang

There is a debate raging in Michigan over Antler Point Restrictions (APR's). My unscientific observation is that most advocates of LEGISLATED APR's (not self imposed) are high tech compound and crossbow hunters.

I am NOT looking for a debate here, just wondering if any of you, as dedicated traditional bowhunters, are advocates of APR's....as in 3 points to a side, 4 to a side, etc.

My personal opinion:  I probably won't shoot a spike or a forkhorn, but don't tell me I can't.

I will be interested to see what comments you get on this here.

I am not a advocate of point restrictions. 
I'm a meat hunter at heart.
Tim B

For my earlier years of bow hunting rule was any antler above natural hairline. Now it's 10" spread or at least 1 beam at 13". Do I agree with the legislation, certainly not. I live in coastal Ms. and P&Y measurable bucks don't grow in this part of the state as a rule. In the Delta portion of our state where large racks are common , antler restrictions change proportionally. The buck/doe sighting ratio here for me is less than 1 buck in 10. I don't deer hunt for antlers. And those that do can do just that. This said my biggest gripe is the last two years our doe killing has been limited to two per year with shortened seasons and does are all we see with just as many as in years past.

I come at this from a biology background, and I wholly disagree with apr's.

I do agree with managing a herd for more mature animals, but there will always be those animals that don't have the genetics to meet those requirements. Given enough time, I feel they will become the best fit to survive. On the same token, I have seen young bucks with great genetics that were killed because they met those requirements.

I think it is far better to have a state educational program trying to educate people on the benefits of a mature deer herd, and in most instances, killing a doe for meat instead of a immature buck.

Educating people so that they willingly make management decisions that are better for the overall population is the best way to go imho.

With all that said, with gun/compound/traditional muzzleloader I aim for mature bucks and does for the freezer. With my trad equipment, I am still at the stage of taking the opportunity that is given. It's my choice, as I think it should be

Roger, you know my stance on this because of our conversations however beyond the APR restrictions we have the following issues that compound the current buck regulations.  MI has a two buck limit, many states have one. Michigan has a 15 day rifle season and it occurs at the tail end of the rut.  Michigan has a muzzle loader season that allows.in-line muzzle loaders that lasts for 10 days right after firearms season, essentially putting bucks under the scope (pun intended) for25 days. Throw in a youth hunt that allows rifles in late September when deer are still in summer patterns and crossbow point and shoot technology that runs from October 1 to November 14 and you have extreme pressure on the buck population in MI.  On top of that, our hunter numbers are amongst the highest in the country.  Our deer habitat/climate is very different from top to bottom of the state with extreme winter/low deer density in North to high density/agricultural in southern portions of state.  I think we'd do well to have a uniform regulation instead of a piecemeal area by area voted in restrictions.  Traditional bow hunting has essentially lost it's aura in MI with the advancement of all the specialty seasons and hunts. There was a proposal by the leading conservation lobbying organization -MUCC- on their annual convention voting floor to extend the traditional bow hunting season.  This got voted down.  It's not gloom and doom for the traditional bow hunters in MI, but this unfolding of restrictions is something to be watched for it's affect on the general archery season.

I live in the APR area in Michigan and when they first enforced it, I was a bit skeptical. However, after a few years I have to say that it is the BEST thing thing that has happened to deer hunting around here. I'm not a trophy hunter, but I've always passed up the smaller bucks to let them get a bit older. Not only are people around here getting nicer deer, but there, but many are seeing more bucks because the smaller ones don't get blasted the first time they are seen. Its fun to go in the woods and actually have a somewhat decent chance of  seeing a good buck.  Last year I shot a buck (with a rifle) that was 4 1/2 years old. That would have been almost unheard of before APR's up here.
Yes it can be frustrating to have to pass some of the smaller bucks, but I really think that it is a good thing and would love to see it state wide. I think Michigan has the potential to be a really good deer state, and the APR's are a step in the right direction.
The only downside that I've seen to them so far is that lots of guys are shooting does now since they don't want to wait for a legal buck, so our doe numbers are going down a bit. I think that the DNR is giving out way to many doe tags in the area, but I don't think that's going to change any time soon.

i live in VA, but here is my take. If they want to impose antler restrictions do it in certain zones or or designated hunting areas. I think 1 buck tag is way more beneficial than 2 buck tags with antler restrictions. In southern Virginia our gun season last from the 3rd Saturday in November to 1st Saturday in January and thats with dogs being used. Muzzleloader is 1st and 2nd week of November landing them in our prime time. I have seen huge hunt clubs with thousands of continuous acres leased have antler restrictions and it work only because of the land lock. antler on public land is fruitless more than likely.  The biggest problem will be more and more does will be shot and over time your herd will start to dwindle

I think it is easier, from a compliance perspective, to simply limit the number of bucks allowed. Even at fairly close ranges, I have had trouble knowing for sure the antler size, whether estimating antler spread or actual number of points (is it a six or a small eight?).

When MO put a 4 point on one side rule in place, I was not all for it. I already didn't shoot smaller bucks(if you want meat, does are better anyway) .


What I've seen it do is increase the number of older bucks, but my first thought was we would have huge 6 points doing the breeding. It didn't turn out that way , we had better bucks and more bucks.


Now with the CWD zone we are in they have reversed and want you to shoot small bucks because they get run off and disperse to new territory . So possibly spreading the disease.


But, folks have seen what letting them grow will do for the size of bucks and most don't shoot smaller bucks regardless of the rule.


I still let smaller ones walk just like I did before the 4 pt rule , and don't get out enough to see who liked it and who didn't.

I live in Texas where they started antler restrictions in many countys several years ago. Just this year, they started AR for mule deer in part of west Tx. With the whitetail AR's, you can shoot one buck with an inside spread greater than 13", and your second buck has to have at least one unbranched antler (spike). While it really doesn't bother me one way or the other, I can tell you that in areas where AR's are in force, the average size of bucks has increased.

Bisch

I do not know a traditional bowhunter personally who does not support the idea of APRs - and the goal for all of them is not trophy hunting but improving herd balance. We invest in our deer all year - every year - and we would prefer something in place to minimize or eliminate the destruction of one and a half year old deer. Just because some guys mood changes we are not on board with him shooting imatuure bucks "for meat". ARPs have improved the deer herd everywhere it has been tried far as we can see.

One buck - Two buck: APRs first - then one or two depends more on hunter number density. You guys in crowded states one buck is better for sure. One buck tag benefits non residents more than anyone.

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There are some places in Illinois where I hunt to where they make it Quality Deer Management and have to have 4 on one side, others state must shoot a doe first.  My personal opinion, I don't see where we need a "law" to enforce ethics.  As a hunter education instructor I understand the different levels hunters evolve to.  I hunt for several reasons, one of which is conservation, I find it hard that I see an animal that needs to be "culled" from the chain, but cann't because of a "law". 
When I take a new bowhunter hunting, I tell them "take the first ethical shot you can, get that first deer under your belt, to experience the whole process".  I have been blessed and had my share of nice bucks, but to me any animal with my tackle is a "trophy".  I think we need to further instill ethics not have more regulations. 
Let me show you how misguided some area's are.  This year in central illinois, where it is legal to harvest two bucks (no restrictions and unlimited does, state law).  They decided to say for the first 15 days of archery season, do not shoot a Doe, in five counties.  Two of the hunting area's in these five counties, you had to harvest a Doe first, and/or the Buck must have four on one side.  I went really deep with discussions with DNR, CPO and even biologist.  No one could give me a deep explanation of the why, this came about.  I asked "Is this a way to "legally" restrict our hunting rights?  Why not restrict the shotgun hunters?"  Again no deep explanation of the why.  I think that if we are going to restrict game, then there needs to be a sound explanation for the hunters.  I see a great many hunter's shrug their shoulders and say "all well".  I say, no stand up and ask "why", its are money funding everything.

For.

Not for purposes of hunting larger bucks...definitely for purposes of improving age structure and herd health/genetics.

I support point restrictions for the purpose of improving the age structure of a game herd.  It matters not the weapon the hunter is using.  The idea is to have, observe, and enjoy a game herd with a better age balance. 

I support APR. I live in PA and it was not supported by most until they saw the difference in the deer herd. For those who say they are a meat hunters, shoot the does for meat, and let the bucks mature.

I would never presume to tell any other hunter what he/she should or should not kill.  I pass on young legal bucks often.  Sometimes I don't.  It depends on where I am hunting.  The choices that I make at 48 are different than the ones that I made at 16.  The people who are the biggest advocates for antler restrictions usually forget about the basket full of small racks that they have in their closet that they killed as a young (new) hunter. 

Deer populations should be managed based on scientific principles.  The largest and healthiest deer herds emerged nation-wide under sound management practices that didn't have anything at all to do with the size of a deer's antlers.  The same time period had the highest number of people buying a hunting license.  Deer populations were managed to grow and everyone was happy.  The Drurys and others were making videos about killing 4 point bucks and life was good. 

Then came QDM and that was OK because people were ELECTING to follow those principles on their own land or land that they managed.  Then they started forming cooperatives with their neighbors and agreeing to work together to grow bigger deer.  That was ok too, but it didn't stop there.  People weren't satisfied with working on their own properties so they started putting pressure on the legislature to mandate their way of hunting on the rest of the population.  That's where things went south.

Today, antler restrictions and small buck shaming are KILLING hunting.  It is all about the score.  You want to know why hunter numbers are on the decline?  Unrealistic expectations based on TV hunting and too many restrictions placed on what new hunters are allowed to enjoy.  We are doing it to ourselves.

It's not the best method but it does better than nothing to improve overall buck age classes in the herd.
That said I own land in two states and see how herds are or aren't managed.  In Missouri the four point rule was really helping the herd until wave after wave of blue tongue wiped it out.
In Texas the 13" rule really made a difference in how many deer survived the season in the two counties I hunted that had it.
It's changed a lot here in Texas and having a state that is vastly private owned has made it easier.
Our place in Missouri is on the edge of a state wildlife area and they are now, and always have been if it's brown it's down hunter over there.  We have found several 5 and 6 point bucks they ground checked and left lay.
I think most landowners, and people who pay a significant amount to have land to hunt, tend to have a different perspective.

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I agree with Gregg Dudley 100%. Do what you want but don't push it on others.

Beyond that, I agree with having a balanced herd, but in many places here in GA that's not what happened. At one time there were too many young bucks being shot, and not enough does being shot. And it was very lopsided toward the does. That is not the case here anymore, at least in the southern 2/3rds of the state. Years of nearly limitless doe killing and young buck passing has created a severe swing the opposite direction. Several people I know that hunt a LOT and keep records are seeing more bucks than does. And I don't think that's good for the herd at all, especially long term.

So the old " kill a doe if you want some meat" argument may be working some places, but I truly think it's bad advice here. Our does could use some protection in a lot of places.

I with Gregg Dudley comments.

No

In SE Mn where I live it's 4 pt on a side. When it got passed there were no more than 54% of the people wanted it and one group pushed it through. I've shot enough deer that I only shoot bigger bucks or does but others I hunt with just want to shoot a deer. My wife is the perfect example, she usually shot a buck and a doe each year until APR's, since Apr's she hasn't shot a buck and doesn't even want to go anymore. It's taken the fun out of hunting. I personally haven't seen a big change in the number of big bucks. We also have CWD now in the area and I think it flys in the face of science to protect bucks so they can older and spread the disease even more. At the age of 70 my eyes are still 20/15 with glasses but in the last 15 minutes of shooting it is nearly impossible to see brow tines and that's on sunny days! On rainy or cloudy days it's worse yet. Thanks for letting me vent.

Quote from: mnbwhtr on November 26, 2018, 03:00:52 PM
No

In SE Mn where I live it's 4 pt on a side. When it got passed there were no more than 54% of the people wanted it and one group pushed it through. I've shot enough deer that I only shoot bigger bucks or does but others I hunt with just want to shoot a deer. My wife is the perfect example, she usually shot a buck and a doe each year until APR's, since Apr's she hasn't shot a buck and doesn't even want to go anymore. It's taken the fun out of hunting. I personally haven't seen a big change in the number of big bucks. We also have CWD now in the area and I think it flys in the face of science to protect bucks so they can older and spread the disease even more. At the age of 70 my eyes are still 20/15 with glasses but in the last 15 minutes of shooting it is nearly impossible to see brow tines and that's on sunny days! On rainy or cloudy days it's worse yet. Thanks for letting me vent.

MNBWHTR: I am in full agreement, I could go into a long diatribe listing studies, experience and how it is a loss of hunter rights. But I will not it is just a poor decision based on ignorance and a special interest group who were making there decisions on greed, selfishness and ignorance.

after reading these posts, I will still say have designated areas only with ARP. That way a hunter can chose.

I'm for APRs.  I live in Virginia where there are no restrictions.  I see veteran hunters with 30 years experience still killing little bucks with any weapon. There are still some big bucks around because there are fewer hunters in many parts of VA.  I grew up in Pennsylvania, and I still hunt there annually.  There is a 4 pt./side restriction in the western third of the state and a 3 pt./side restriction everywhere else.  The biologist who led the study, and recommended restrictions was hit with such negative pressure he resigned.  Now, 20 years later, most hunters accept the restrictions, and most are amazed at the number of big bucks PA produces each year.  Youth hunters are not included in the regulations, so if a young hunter chooses to kill the first buck they see, it's perfectly legal. I'm all for that!

Here in most of CA, we have a forked-horn minimum and virtually no doe hunts for most of the state.  The season for most folks ends before the rut begins.  So our public land success rates are usually between 5-10%.  I've heard some compound guys chatting about APRs but, in my experience, it would all but end hunting out here.  The vast majority of hunters already eat tag soup.  And those that bag a buck on public land in a non-lottery zone mostly take forkies.  So, no, I don't want my hunting to be any more difficult than it already is.  I got a forkie this year (rifle) but that was the first legal buck I've seen in my area for 3 seasons.  I've let countless does, fawns and spikes go over that time but would have gladly taken some if it were legal.

Personally, I'm skeptical of what passes for science in uncontrolled environments.  I'm comfortable with taking any animal that allows itself to get within 20 yards of me because it obviously isn't paying attention to its surroundings to let me slip in under its superior defenses.  That's the rule nature follows and if I'm using primitive gear, then I'm just one among nature's predators.  Dumb animals get eaten.  Alert ones live to reproduce another year.  But, laws being what they are, I let the does, fawns & spikes go.

I sometimes wonder if we could save a bundle of cash (redirecting the funds to enforcement and habitat improvement) by limiting research and study in population numbers by simply adjusting the method of take based on the previous year's harvest.  High success years allow for rifles the following year while low success years may limit hunters to primitive weapons only.  But that's just  armchair speculation.  Chances are, such a method would also bankrupt our DFW since rifle hunters are still in the majority.

strongly against any more rules- especially from nitwits sitting on insurance/corporate money

As conservationists, shouldn't we take David Petersen's view on taking smaller bucks and possibly a few does to maintain herd health in a more natural way ? Natures top predators are seldom interested in chasing the largest bucks or bulls for obvious reasons. No taxidermy options for them I guess  :goldtooth:

If a rule must be set in place it should directly reflect the weapon used. Any firearm, or weapon closely related to, can deal with counting points and spreads. Let the bowhunters and especially traditional hunters make their own choice. And after a new hunter has harvested an animal let them now be governed by said rule.

"lesser weapon-lesser rules"

Great thread with lots of good input!

Now that there's been a little input, here's what I proposed to Roger privately last week when we were discussing.  Keep in mind Michigan has had everything from one buck only per year to two unrestricted buck tags.  Currently there is a combination tag that is good for two bucks, one unrestricted and the other for a buck with at least 4 points on one antler.  I don't know the exact breakdown, however many hunters buy the combination tag.  Some hunters opt for a single tag which is unrestricted.  With either option, a hunter in APR area must follow the APR restrictions on the unrestricted tag. That being said if Michigan went to a one buck rule there would be a significant drop in licensing fee revenues (think 500,000 times $20).

Here's the compromise proposal:

Choice #1, one buck tag good for ANY size buck.    Choice #2, two buck tags, BOTH restricted to FOUR points or better on one side.  If this were in place NO antler restricted areas would be allowed anymore.   This would be a compromise for everyone AND allow people to shoot a single young buck if that's what they desire and no area would have restrictions on what you can or can't shoot as there is now.

They have laid them on us on Florida and I fear they are here to stay. I have had to pass up deer that would have been legal if they had brow tines, which is frustrating. Maybe  I would have less of an issue if I was in a big buck state but the restriction of 3 points on one side is frustrating when so many FL bucks do not grow brow tines. You can also shoot a buck with 10 inch main beams which is less restrictive but I am a first deer I see, I shoot kind of hunter.

Ray, the combo tags are good for does or bucks during archery...at least in the LP...not sure if the UP is allowing does to be taken yet or not.

APR's have been a good thing around here. The B/D ratio has been messed up around here for a long time. Its nice to see some decent bucks finally.

My take...loose the APR's and go back to one buck.. or.. keep the APR's and still go to one buck. They are generous with doe tags around here for the folks who just want some meat.

It depends on many factors. Could it be a deterrent for someone who works and gets very little time in woods? Someone who's a single parent w very little free time. You gonna tell your old man who's 90 and barely made it up a hill he can't shoot the deer in front of him cause some lawmaker said so? How bout your young child. We get one chance often to hook em. Gonna tell him that spike is only for looking at? Years from now it'll get better for someone else.

The state I live in has QDM, at first I was all for it but w exceptions for youth, elderly and disabled. Will it help? Idk I'd bet if they reclassify button bucks so they aren't antlerless we might have more bucks. In my state it's unlimited antlerless. One guy bragged years ago about killing 15 button bucks on his feed pile. Guy was a puke if you as me. I haven't seen a bachelor herd in years because of this.
Now the state I live in has gun season until mid March. How exactly bad do they wanna protect bucks if the season is still open and unlimited? The same forkhorn you passed 6 times w a longbow is now on some guys truck in January cause his horns fell off and now he's legal. That helped nothing.
John Ozoga did a study, 51% of fawns born are bucks. Killing all the does isn't good either.
QDM is nonsense here at least if you ask me. It depends on the situation elsewhere

Going from 2 bucks to 1 buck in Indiana was great...APRs here where I live wouldn't do much to protect 18 month old bucks...most have 4 points on one side anyway.

What I would LOVE to see is classifying a BUCK based on GENDER not horns...sorry guys, but if it has testicles it is a buck.  I wish the first idiot in some game department that came up with "antlered buck = buck tag, button fawn = doe tag"  had never been hired.  Guys would QUICKLY get better at identifying button heads from does if a "buck tag" meant buck (ie...male deer), not horns, as any thinking human being would have logically concluded.

A guy wants to shoot a button fawn, have at it, I won't tell you "no"...but you gonna burn that buck tag on him.  Now THAT would have some effect on buck doe ratios and herd dynamics.

R

Great discussion. I'm a life long old bowhunter that's been fortunate to hunt several states. In a nut shell I like Ohio's laws. One buck and done. Doesn't matter if you are 13 or 70. IF you like the buck you are about to kill good for you but you are done! Seems simple enough but it's a lot more confusing when you bring into the debate of the state you hunt and the available deer to hunt.

Eric, you cannot harvest does in the UP with the combo tags and you are correct that bow hunters can use them for bucks or does in lower peninsula.  The reason I like my proposal above is because if you want two buck tags, both bucks must have 4 or better on a side. You could even say 4 on one tag and 5 on the other for combo tags and then the single buck tag option is unrestricted.  You're still going to more than likely have similar statistics to a one buck rule, keep revenue up because many of the seasoned hunters are going to opt for two tags because there will be an increase in buck population and older structure in age AND for the kid hunting for the first time or the person in the twilight of their career they can shoot a single any size buck and be satisfied with their harvest.

I am not an advocate of APR's, I'm not saying that they don't work, but I think there are better ways to manage our deer herd here in Michigan.  When I was able to start hunting, (no special youth hunt 38 years ago) I went out with my Dad's Bear recurve, I was taught that you don't shoot does, and if you saw a buck you shot it, it didn't matter how big it was. I can remember in the 80's when we had a two tag limit for bow and a two tag limit for rifle, so you could legally shoot 4 bucks. As I grew and matured as a hunter, I put self imposed restrictions on myself. I have never regretted that.  I have hunted on farmers land that wanted does taken, and had no problem helping them out.  I have also hunted outside of our state for several years now, and have been able to see how other states handle their management of their  deer herds.  I think that our state needs to look at how liberal they have made the seasons, in essence we can start shooting deer from the middle of September through the first of January, with any sort of weapon, and now with cwd thrown  in the mix, our muzzle loader season, has basically been made an extended rifle season.  If you take a few minutes and look at the amount of deer that have been posted on the Michigan buck pole, there have been a lot of very nice deer being taken, showing that if people let deer go they will get bigger, it just takes time.  With all this being said, I really don't want someone telling me what I can or cannot shoot, I want to be the one that makes that decision. 


Jason

Ryan Rothhaar, yes the four on one side doesn't matter as much in your neck of the woods. It's the very reason that all of the voted in antler restrictions are in northern lower peninsula and Upper Peninsula of Michigan because first year bucks are more likely spikes, forkhorn or maybe six points.  In southern MI it's closer to what you're seeing in Indiana and that's part of the reason for our states controversy is that northern area hunters don't get to see an 'eight' point because they're shot as forkhorn bucks because the guy always has that second tag in his pocket to shoot bullwinkle if he come along.

Ray, yep I understand your point about the 2nd tag for Bullwinkle...that is exactly what we had in Indiana..."first tag" for most guys was any buck with horns and "second tag" was held for the biggun...till later in season then that was used on a second little one more than likely. 

Going to a one buck limit helped out with that. If the Michigan DNR is worried about loss of second buck tag revenue at $20 each....just cut back to one buck tag and double the price!  Doe tags can be kept at lower rate.  Betcha after a couple years when the hunting improves the vast majority of deer hunters would think that 20 dollars well worth it.

Too bad our game departments are generally incapable of thinking outside the box....

R

very good discussion fellas

I agree with Gregg, don't want to be told what we can shoot period, especially on private ground.

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Quote from: Ryan Rothhaar on November 26, 2018, 07:18:59 PM
Ray, yep I understand your point about the 2nd tag for Bullwinkle...that is exactly what we had in Indiana..."first tag" for most guys was any buck with horns and "second tag" was held for the biggun...till later in season then that was used on a second little one more than likely. 

Going to a one buck limit helped out with that. If the Michigan DNR is worried about loss of second buck tag revenue at $20 each....just cut back to one buck tag and double the price!  Doe tags can be kept at lower rate.  Betcha after a couple years when the hunting improves the vast majority of deer hunters would think that 20 dollars well worth it.

Too bad our game departments are generally incapable of thinking outside the box....

R

Ryan,  this is a social issue and money issue for our game department. Agreed they could change fee structure as you described but to a bunch of howling for sure.  From the other side you're going to have guys fighting tooth and nail that 'not that many people shoot a second buck so it doesn't matter'. I've never bought into that argument.  The game department goes along with current rules because the herd is biologically in balance with habitat so the number of bucks and age structure balance is a social issue.

All I know is that when I hunted as a kid (25yrs ago), we never saw any 8pts. My uncle has hunted the same land for 40yrs and he never seen or shot an 8pt until the APR went into effect in our county. I started seeing them a few years before that but I have the luxury of spending the full season in a stand if I choose to. I didn't like the APR at first but it is growing bigger deer in our area. Its not uncommon now to see several different 8pts and even some big 10's on our property and that never used to happen. I noticed that the bucks we harvested this fall were much heavier in body mass and rack size than in previous years and IIR this is the 3rd or maybe 4th year of the APR in MI? I'm all in for the APR.

I've learned a great deal about how other states deer regs work from this thread. I agree that our 65 and older hunters ought to have more flexibility. Currently those 15 yrs or less can take any buck(3 total) with exception of dog seasons. Many rednecks in this region will take a child for the express purpose of killing whatever jumps the road. I would rather have a 1 buck limit of any size than our 3 buck restricted law. This is primarily based on the fact that I'll probably never reach my annual quota as I bow hunt only. I thought years ago when the restrictions began I would eventually see an increase of mature bucks but it seems unchanged. It has to help but one would think it would be more evident. I'm sure private land lends itself better to antler growth.

I believe that we are on our 5th or 6th year of APR's. It took a few years to get going, but once it did, people started seeing and shooting nicer deer. I don't hunt much for the antlers, although I certainly get excited when I see a big one. I just like being able to take older deer. The past four deer that my brother and I have taken have all been bigger than anything that my dad or grandpa have ever shot, and they both have a wall full of antlers.

That being said, I can see both sides of the argument. When APR's were first implemented here, there were a lot of guys who were furious about it. Talk to these guys now and they are singing a completely different tune. There are still guys who shoot deer that aren't legal, but even those who did are starting to go away since they are seeing better deer.

I think what Michigan really needs to do if they want to build the herd back up is back off on the does. It seems like they can come up with a special firearm doe season for just about anything! Early season doe hunt. Late season doe hunt. Shoot them with your rifle during muzzleloader season, etc. etc. It's hard to build up a population when you are increasing the number of bucks and decreasing the number of does in such high numbers.

There was talk a few years back about having an age cutoff where APR's wouldn't apply, but I don't think that ever happened. They were also talking about eliminating them for the first two days of firearm deer season, but again I don't think that went anywhere. I know that they don't apply during the youth hunt, which is good since it lets younger hunters get that first deer under their belts.

I don't really have any real scientific knowledge to back up what I'm saying. Just the slightly biased opinion of a deer hunter. This is a great topic! Really enjoying reading everyone's thoughts.

Geez...This makes me glad I live in a state with plenty deer and no so many hunters. Hunting just private land I can take up to four deer (no more than two bucks) by bow and two more (one buck) with rifle/shotgun.  I could add two more by hunting muzzle loader, and two more by hunting in the next management zone south.







9

I think it is hard to know which factors account for an increase in the number of bucks in a given area.  Logically speaking, it makes sense to give credit to antler restrictions.  I would argue, however,that dwindling hunting numbers and an aging hunter demographic are perhaps as important to figure into the equation.

For me it really comes down to this. What gives another person, or group of persons, the right to tell me what I can or can not shoot with the gear and license I bought and paid for? I know the goal is then everyone gets the chance to shoot a bigger buck but how do you rationalize that it is my responsibility to increase your odds for a larger deer?

Now all that said, I passed on more than one small, younger buck this fall hoping for a larger buck. Last weekend I was lucky enough to take a nice 3.5 year old buck. Had another month gone by without success a smaller buck might have been in trouble.

I will tell you another side effect of APRs, one I have seen myself. Smaller bucks will still be shot and in some cases the hunter will just leave it in the field in fear of being caught with a smaller deer. A local WMA here has point restrictions and twice I have found dead bucks that did not meet the minimum.

I live and hunt in the NW12. The first three years of the new APRs we had some nicer bucks running around. But the last two years there have been alot less . The hunting pressure has become a real problem in my area. It seems everyone has flocked to this area in hopes of getting a crack at a bigger buck.
It's gotten pretty bad, the latest craze is guy's doing deer drives using xbows and wearing Bluetooth devices. Pretty sad.

I should of added I don't mind the aprs , just hate patchwork aprs. It puts to much pressure on the areas that have them Imo. Did we need them, no. There was nothing wrong with the way things were. But on the other hand it is a good thing to save some bucks from being wacked do to the popularity of xbows and really long gun seasons plus other special seasons or Dnr feel the need to have. Ah if we could just roll back time. I miss the good ol days of deer hunting, to me this was 70s - 90s.

I wonder how much of this APR stuff is decided politically and how much is decided on REAL science.

I live in Western Va. and we have two buck tags here and 3 doe tags. Unfortunately, does are legal all two weeks of gun season(thanks insurance companies) and our overall deer population is going down. With the buck tags one is unrestricted and the other has to have 4 on one side. Personally I shoot does rather than small bucks as they eat better but certainly have killed boatloads of small bucks in the past. Haven't seen improvement in size of bucks since aprs enacted. I would rather have just 1 buck tag for any weapon and two doe tags. Sure people would be more selective in what they shot.
East of the Blue ridge I can shoot two bucks,three does, and 1 of either sex. Granted the deer population is higher there but body size generally is smaller but rack size can be larger. I feel our wildlife management is ruled by $$ and not scientific fact. I also don't feel the age of the hunter-meaning seniors-should be a factor as people in my age bracket certainly have killed enough deer to know what  they want on the meat pole.

I am for them.

The herd balance and the intensity of the rut has vastly improved in my area since we implemented them here in the SE. Granted only a small majority of us wanted them at first but it was still a majority. Now the hunter satisfaction rate is much higher because people are having better hunts over all. APR is not about better antlers it is about better herd management.  If any one spends as much time hunting as I do and can compare the before/after you would understand that.

Big antlers is a visible display of a healthy adult deer.


You can educate all you want but the sad fact is most people won't allow a young buck  a pass unless
they are forced to .

also for those here who complain they are meat hunters, you get to shoot 3 does here, that really should be enough.

I agree with you and Pa is now the same.

Quote from: gregg dudley on November 26, 2018, 01:12:31 PM
I would never presume to tell any other hunter what he/she should or should not kill.  I pass on young legal bucks often.  Sometimes I don't.  It depends on where I am hunting.  The choices that I make at 48 are different than the ones that I made at 16.  The people who are the biggest advocates for antler restrictions usually forget about the basket full of small racks that they have in their closet that they killed as a young (new) hunter. 

Deer populations should be managed based on scientific principles.  The largest and healthiest deer herds emerged nation-wide under sound management practices that didn't have anything at all to do with the size of a deer's antlers.  The same time period had the highest number of people buying a hunting license.  Deer populations were managed to grow and everyone was happy.  The Drurys and others were making videos about killing 4 point bucks and life was good. 

Then came QDM and that was OK because people were ELECTING to follow those principles on their own land or land that they managed.  Then they started forming cooperatives with their neighbors and agreeing to work together to grow bigger deer.  That was ok too, but it didn't stop there.  People weren't satisfied with working on their own properties so they started putting pressure on the legislature to mandate their way of hunting on the rest of the population.  That's where things went south.

Today, antler restrictions and small buck shaming are KILLING hunting.  It is all about the score.  You want to know why hunter numbers are on the decline?  Unrealistic expectations based on TV hunting and too many restrictions placed on what new hunters are allowed to enjoy.  We are doing it to ourselves.

Yep. Agreed. Plus, I have moments to shoot a deer. Precious moments. I don't have time to count points. I do however know when I want to shoot a deer and when I don't. That is an instantaneous thing.

I love Ryan's idea that any deer with testicles counts as a buck, and one must use a buck tag for that deer.
Also, for those saying they see less bucks due to antler restrictions, consider the fact that older deer tend to be smarter, or more educated to our presence.  They rarely act like the "teenage" buck that we often see running everywhere during the pre-rut.

I haven't read through the comments, so some of this may have already been touched on.  When it comes to point restrictions, I tend to disagree with them.  I pass young bucks all the time, but if I want to shoot one, that is a personal choice.  If states really want to make a difference and have bigger bucks and balance buck and doe ratios, take a look at some 1 buck states.  People will be much more picky if they only get one buck tag.  Guys that are meat hunters only and don't care about a rack, they win in this scenario.  Guys that care only about a big buck and not much else, they also win.  This would mean an increased harvest of does, and more than likely a decrease in harvest of young bucks.  That would mean a better balanced herd, and more mature bucks to pursue.  That's just my take on things. 

All Pa ever has had is 1 buck per hunter.

My $.02 on this.  Pa. had tons of deer in the 60's. Nothin to see 25 runnin together, maybe 60 deer in a day, public and private land. Almost all the bucks were spindly spikes and Y's. If someone got a 6 it was something. They enacted restrictions and there was an uproar. Jump ahead and yes  there are definitely healthier animals. I like the results. Deer numbers are down primarily due to very liberal doe harvests. Overall, combined, there is a healthier herd more in balance with the carrying capacity of the land. I do have an issue with some doe harvest programs we still have in place, but that is for another thread.
I do notice fewer hunters which is Ok too as I believe many reckless, unethical hunters will not want to work for their quarry. You'll see them cruising the roads hoping to see an easy shot from the truck. For the most part the only danger from these guys is all the litter you have to pick after these slobs.

Quote from: Roy from Pa on November 27, 2018, 12:19:37 PM
All Pa ever has had is 1 buck per hunter.

So give me some insight here on being a 1 buck state.   Why did PA ever put APR into effect?  Did everybody just kill the 1st buck they saw?  Why has it worked in some states but not others? 

My guess here is that it has to do with hunter numbers?  I'm not really sure, but I know PA has a very large amount of hunters.  It's strange to see it work well for some states, but not at all in a place like PA. 

I think they work. I'm in a county that doesn't have them. Our state is a poor example of good deer management in my opinion. Where I live is managed the same way Kent Co is and they have 10X the deer. I dont like the 2 buck thing. I don't like the youth hunt. I don't like crossbows. I don't like baiting. I also don't like that you can't hunt birds in rifle season. It's the best 2 weeks to hunt. But I do like the APR's, my son started hunting in the APR zone a few seasons ago and he is seeing and taking a lot nicer bucks than we ever have. If everybody doesn't participate voluntarily or by regulation, it doesn't really matter.

My personal opinion is to simply limit the buck harvest. WV finally cut back to 3 a cpl years ago. If I had my choice it would be cut back to 2.
I believe APR are effective but limiting the buck harvest is easier to enforce and also easier for the hunter.

Quote from: warden415 on November 27, 2018, 01:36:12 PM
My personal opinion is to simply limit the buck harvest. WV finally cut back to 3 a cpl years ago. If I had my choice it would be cut back to 2.
I believe APR are effective but limiting the buck harvest is easier to enforce and also easier for the hunter.

This is definitely an advantage to the buck limit over APR.  Let a guy shoot what he wants.  If it makes him happy, who cares if its 12" wide and only has 6 points.  It's his tag.  If he isn't happy with it, there's always next year.

Quote from: JakeD on November 27, 2018, 01:44:48 PM

Quote from: warden415 on November 27, 2018, 01:36:12 PM
My personal opinion is to simply limit the buck harvest. WV finally cut back to 3 a cpl years ago. If I had my choice it would be cut back to 2.
I believe APR are effective but limiting the buck harvest is easier to enforce and also easier for the hunter.

This is definitely an advantage to the buck limit over APR.  Let a guy shoot what he wants.  If it makes him happy, who cares if its 12" wide and only has 6 points.  It's his tag.  If he isn't happy with it, there's always next year.

Agree with these guys. As mentioned earlier where I hunt (WMA) I'm held to 10". Let's say I get all sideways after many dry runs and decide to shoot a buck that turns out to be 9.5. I've just shot an illegal deer and have to decide if it's worth the $250 fine (wild guess) or not. One might say if you ain't sure don't shoot. That said I'm being held to roughly a new 12" standard as most that have hunted any amount of time can pick up on a 2" variation. And don't even get me to guessing on beam length restrictions.


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Obviously this thread is hit a nerve with many people people apr's ra good tool where needed. Michigan certainly has not been a destination for out-of-state hunters for the most part when looking for a state to shoot a big buck.

I like Ryan's idea of a male deer equals a buck tag. I also understand where Jim is coming from and know that apr's are great at improving the herd age quality.

I think it's easier to put an APR into effect then to educate the majority of hunters and how to identify age class in Deer. I also believe that the majority of hunters couldn't identify their deer until it was laying on the ground in front of them due to the shots they choose to take.

I do not take a stance on a APRS, because I have personally seen the effects of them. I do however find it wrong to pass on a six-year-old buck with a gorgeous six-point rack.

I would be curious to find out exactly what Michigan is trying to accomplish with the APR.

There has been a concern that APR is not the way to go and that age is the way to go. The problem becomes, like discussed earlier, that it would be hard to have an age restriction. My biggest argument against it is the fact I do not want people telling me what the trophy is. To me the smallish 9 point I shot this year at less than 15 yards, made a excellent shot and went 50 yards was a trophy. It was a trophy because everything went perfect and it was hunted not shot long distance. My boy (11 years old) shot his first deer this year with a muzzleloader. I was as proud as him if not prouder. It was a button buck, it was a trophy. If people want trophies they can hunt for them, they can get there own property and manage them. The APR restrictions that are so greatly touted here, in my experience, has not gained much. It causes more to shoot more does, more young "potential bucks are shot", more frustrated hunters, more older "less trophy" bucks are able to live out there years. This coming from someone who has spent not only a ton of days in the woods hunting but a ton of miles and days trapping. The concept on the outside appears good but in reality is flawed. In regards to Minnesota the DNR will never gain credibility of APR with me until they take the gun opener out of the prime rut.

Quote from: Roger Norris on November 26, 2018, 06:07:31 AM
My personal opinion:  I probably won't shoot a spike or a forkhorn, but don't tell me I can't.

This^

Don't know if it was mentioned but in Michigan our APR is 3 on a side, not 4, so six pointers are still legal. I know a guy who shot a three point that had only one side.

Why should game laws be set to satisfy the "if it's brown, it goes down" crowd?  Many of us want a better experience than that.  Why do we universally accept fishing regulations (size, number, type of lure/bait) and not clamor for exceptions for kids and the elderly?  Maybe we should give our kids and the elderly more credit for understanding and accepting why we have restrictions. 

With regards to the difficulty in counting points, especially at dusk...that is why you should carry binoculars.  On quite a few occasions here in Iowa I had a fat button buck approach my stand with several antlerless tags burning a hole in my pocket.  A quick look with my binos lets me safely decide whether to shoot or not.  Likewise I have avoided shooting small spikes on several occasions that looked like big does.  A mistake here would have cost me one of my precious buck tags!

Like everything else there seems to be a need for immediate gratification. Youth hunt. Crossbow. Baiting. People hunting from heated blinds or mini houses. If everyone would abide by a certain set of ethics not rules. We wouldn't need the APR's. I agree with a kid being able to shoot a spike, if he is out in the woods and weather in the regular season. Let's put everyone afoot and make them learn to hunt. No baiting what so ever. Go ask a farmer to sit in his corn. I gave 40 acres I hunt on, I don't shoot young bucks. There is a group of us in my area that all agreed not to shoot anything less than a 6 with the spread being close to the ears. The guy behind me has a truck farm, his wife planted 4000 strawberry plants 2 years ago. The deer are 3995 of them. He killed a bunch of deer that fall, that pi$$ed off the guy to my west. He started shooting everything that moved last fall. So I basically need any help I can get.  I don't like regulations either but we just don't have the resources any more.

I've see APRs improve the age structure of a managed herd significantly, but in MS it was found that the "4 point rule" (total points) actually hurt the buck antlers, because the superior young bucks with forked antlers were getting killed while spikes did the breeding. MS changed from point restrictions to a limit on spread or beam length, the thinking being that a buck with antlers with a spread of at least X inches or a beam length of at least X inches was an older deer, so theoretically more first-rack bucks will survive. Oddly, limits on does have been decreased at the same time. That seems counterintuitive, but now that CWD has been found in a third deer, I figure the doe limit will be increased. I don't know if the antler restriction changes have been effective, but I do know that judging inside spread and beam length can't be done without a really good look at the deer, unless it's a big buck.

On other sites I go on there are always heated battles about aprs, it has defiantly caused a riff between hunters. I've had guy's tell me I live in the stone age and am a dinosaur because I didn't like the idea of them and hunted with a recurve. These same guy's had big hunks of private land with heated shacks, food plots and hunted with xbows. Some how Because of what I used and how I hunted ( public land ) I was the " Bad guy". Give me a brake.

Quote from: Garman on November 27, 2018, 03:38:49 PM
There has been a concern that APR is not the way to go and that age is the way to go. The problem becomes, like discussed earlier, that it would be hard to have an age restriction. My biggest argument against it is the fact I do not want people telling me what the trophy is. To me the smallish 9 point I shot this year at less than 15 yards, made a excellent shot and went 50 yards was a trophy. It was a trophy because everything went perfect and it was hunted not shot long distance. My boy (11 years old) shot his first deer this year with a muzzleloader. I was as proud as him if not prouder. It was a button buck, it was a trophy. If people want trophies they can hunt for them, they can get there own property and manage them. The APR restrictions that are so greatly touted here, in my experience, has not gained much. It causes more to shoot more does, more young "potential bucks are shot", more frustrated hunters, more older "less trophy" bucks are able to live out there years. This coming from someone who has spent not only a ton of days in the woods hunting but a ton of miles and days trapping. The concept on the outside appears good but in reality is flawed. In regards to Minnesota the DNR will never gain credibility of APR with me until they take the gun opener out of the prime rut.

Hopefully I don't ever have to worry about it here in Kentucky but couldn't agree more.  My time to hunt is very limited, I absolutely don't want the state or anyone else telling me what a trophy is to me or my family. 

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Quote from: JohnV on November 28, 2018, 10:21:57 AM
Why should game laws be set to satisfy the "if it's brown, it goes down" crowd?  Many of us want a better experience than that.  Why do we universally accept fishing regulations (size, number, type of lure/bait) and not clamor for exceptions for kids and the elderly?  Maybe we should give our kids and the elderly more credit for understanding and accepting why we have restrictions. 

With regards to the difficulty in counting points, especially at dusk...that is why you should carry binoculars.  On quite a few occasions here in Iowa I had a fat button buck approach my stand with several antlerless tags burning a hole in my pocket.  A quick look with my binos lets me safely decide whether to shoot or not.  Likewise I have avoided shooting small spikes on several occasions that looked like big does.  A mistake here would have cost me one of my precious buck tags!

Why should the laws be set to satisfy the big horn crowd?  You may want a different experience but that doesn't make it any more right than what I or anyone else wants.

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I vote no on antler size restrictions on principle.  But I live in a one buck state.  Hard to say how I'd feel otherwise.  It was probably equally contentious when we went to one buck with most of the same arguments.

Living in a state that already has this I have to say I hate it in one way.  Before it was made mandatory I had already imposed a "self-regulated" restriction on myself of at least an 8 pt. OR a spread to the ear tips or larger regardless of points.  Now that it's mandatory it takes away from the new guy over 16 that just wants to get his feet wet in hunting, a person who has a family to feed and cares less about the horns, a senior citizen who can't hunt at the level they once could or me when you're in one of those years that the season is ending and you haven't seen a single legal buck all year.  That being said, yes there are larger buck being killed but I don't live in a hunting video, I despise the current leasing crap that has taken neighborhoods that used to allow each other to hunt openly across property lines and now has everything posted so they can grow em' like the video guys.  I just enjoy hunting and that joy is slowly being taken away in the name of bigger horns.

Longbowman, if the fellow just wants to shoot a deer, why not shoot a doe? They're are the best eating anyhow.

Joncagle, I will answer from my point of view and experience to your last question as well if that is ok. The last few years, and I believe due to APR, the doe to buck ration has been near 50/50. But nothing of a decent size you could shoot. Many years I went without filling both tags because of this. Having to leave many "6" point older bucks to walk. As I stated the APR in my experience and reading new reports and studies do not work. You have to manage by age class. I as well see someone spoke about fish and keeping size limits, they also put a size limit on the large ones as well. Only one or none bigger than 26" for walleyes for example. The bigger issue is this, but I will first ask how many of you are trappers?, due to greed, anger, and wanting to level the playing field, yada yada...the trappers have darn near legislatively put themselves out of existence. Many of us in the trapper world have a saying "your fellow trappers are your own worst enemy". I see hunting going the same direction and honestly is scares me.

JonCagle I do agree though I rather have a big old doe. Most years I skip small bucks and shoot them anyway, but certain years and for certain people they/I feel we want that option.

Quote from: JonCagle on November 28, 2018, 03:50:11 PM
Longbowman, if the fellow just wants to shoot a deer, why not shoot a doe? They're are the best eating anyhow.

What would be easier for a new bowhunter to take a mature doe or a young buck in the rut?  You make it sound like shooting a doe is a guaranteed easy proposition.  It isn't for some people, some with limited experience or time are excited for any shot opportunity.

People mention fishing regulations.  Here we have seen crappie limits go from 30 to 20.  Based on biology or science?  Nope, guides and fishermen that can't catch a cold whined and whined to drop the limit so that they could catch more "limits".  The science said no overharvest at all but more regulation crammed down our throats by loud and vocal people with $$$ in the game

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Quote from: longbowman on November 28, 2018, 02:21:52 PM
Living in a state that already has this I have to say I hate it in one way.  Before it was made mandatory I had already imposed a "self-regulated" restriction on myself of at least an 8 pt. OR a spread to the ear tips or larger regardless of points.  Now that it's mandatory it takes away from the new guy over 16 that just wants to get his feet wet in hunting, a person who has a family to feed and cares less about the horns, a senior citizen who can't hunt at the level they once could or me when you're in one of those years that the season is ending and you haven't seen a single legal buck all year.  That being said, yes there are larger buck being killed but I don't live in a hunting video, I despise the current leasing crap that has taken neighborhoods that used to allow each other to hunt openly across property lines and now has everything posted so they can grow em' like the video guys.  I just enjoy hunting and that joy is slowly being taken away in the name of bigger horns.

Amen, well said

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One things for sure Roger, You got us all talking. Nicely Done. I've read some stuff that I wasn't thinking about.

The meat hunters (brown and down crowd) will not hesitate to shoot the big buck that wanders off of the well managed property of someone practicing QDM then they will plaster it all over the forms and the book of faces.  It's hypocrisy at it's finest.

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I have been trying to kill a deer with the bow since 1967, did it with a compound and then went right back to a recurve. Do the math.......long time bowhunting with trad gear and no luck. Therefore AR is not in my play book. I get a chance to kill a deer and it's not a legal deer because it's a spike or only 2 on a side.......I won't be happy. If you want to pass on a small buck.....God Bless you, but don't tell me what I can or can not shoot. Oh yea......I'll take a doe in a heart beat.

It's not hypocritical to want to killl a big buck and not be in favor of antler restrictions.  You want a big buck.  He wants a big buck.  She wants a big buck.  I want a big buck. Everyone wants a big buck.  Here's a little secret.... there have always been big bucks and there always will be with or without the management flavor Du jour. 

Someone stated above that management practices should not favor "brown is down" philosophy.  They are right!  Someone else stated that management practices should not favor the "big horn crowd".  They are right too!  Management practices should favor a healthy deer herd and consider scientifically sound factors like carrying capacity and buck/doe ratios.  "Hunter Satisfaction" should be way down the list.

Since this topic started, I have researched the benefits of antler restrictions through available online resources.  The number one reason that is cited is age distributions are increased within a population.  So I searched for evidence of the benefits of wider age distribution .  Turns out there is a LOT of guesswork on that subject.  It also turns out that if aliens abducted every buck over 1.5 years old, the species could still thrive.

I found previous reference to fish limits to be interesting, but deer don't breed like fish.  Neither do they form harems like elk and limit breeding to the biggest baddest bull in the woods.  Whitetail bucks spend 36-48 hours locked down with a single doe to breed.   Any 1.5 year old buck can and will breed. The genetic die has already been cast regardless of the age of the sire.  In a relatively predator-free 2018, big antlers are more coveted by hunters than necessary to a whitetail.

Quote from: Sam McMichael on November 27, 2018, 08:41:53 AM
I wonder how much of this APR stuff is decided politically and how much is decided on REAL science.

In Michigan we voted.  78% in favor.  66% was the thresh hold it had to breech to be instituted.  I believe the term the DNR used is "Super Majority".  What I noticed is there's a good number of those who were against APR's, who now think they're the greatest thing since sliced bread. 

Quote from: gvdocholiday on November 28, 2018, 08:26:30 PM

Quote from: Sam McMichael on November 27, 2018, 08:41:53 AM
I wonder how much of this APR stuff is decided politically and how much is decided on REAL science.

In Michigan we voted.  78% in favor.  66% was the thresh hold it had to breech to be instituted.  I believe the term the DNR used is "Super Majority".  What I noticed is there's a good number of those who were against APR's, who now think they're the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Nothing says policy by opinion quite like voting for management criteria.  When they offer a common vote and the general public decides that hunting isn't a viable management tool, there will be precedence like this to support it. 

Quote from: gregg dudley on November 28, 2018, 09:02:00 PM

Quote from: gvdocholiday on November 28, 2018, 08:26:30 PM

Quote from: Sam McMichael on November 27, 2018, 08:41:53 AM
I wonder how much of this APR stuff is decided politically and how much is decided on REAL science.

In Michigan we voted.  78% in favor.  66% was the thresh hold it had to breech to be instituted.  I believe the term the DNR used is "Super Majority".  What I noticed is there's a good number of those who were against APR's, who now think they're the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Nothing says policy by opinion quite like voting for management criteria.  When they offer a common vote and the general public decides that hunting isn't a viable management tool, there will be precedence like this to support it.

Totally agree Gregg

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I am in an APR area and since this was started we are seeing many more deer, bucks and does. Now I am not a scientist but I figure if you let the small bucks go they breed does like big bucks do which give you more deer in the spring. You eliminate the smaller bucks in the fall that doesn't happen.  To me hunting in an APR area makes you a better hunter.  Before the APR's you could body shoot a deer in the early morning or late evening hunt but now you must make sure of what you are shooting.  Those spike bucks can hide those antlers pretty good sometimes.

Now for those that don't like to be told what to hunt. The minute you buy a license you are being told what to hunt even before APR restrictions.  I guess we need to  abide by the rules in place where ever you decide to hunt. If you don't like APR's find a spot where they are not imposed and shoot away.  I have  a feeling that APR's may go state wide in Michigan down the road.

As far as my equipment use goes: Primitive , using a self bow, self made arrows and stone points in a ground blind.

:deadhorse:

Quote from: gregg dudley on November 28, 2018, 09:02:00 PM

Quote from: gvdocholiday on November 28, 2018, 08:26:30 PM

Quote from: Sam McMichael on November 27, 2018, 08:41:53 AM
I wonder how much of this APR stuff is decided politically and how much is decided on REAL science.

In Michigan we voted.  78% in favor.  66% was the thresh hold it had to breech to be instituted.  I believe the term the DNR used is "Super Majority".  What I noticed is there's a good number of those who were against APR's, who now think they're the greatest thing since sliced bread.

Nothing says policy by opinion quite like voting for management criteria.  When they offer a common vote and the general public decides that hunting isn't a viable management tool, there will be precedence like this to support it.

Hunting is referendum proof in MI.  Can't be voted against thanks to Public Act 21 of 2013.  PA 21 empowered the Natural Resource Commission to declare game animals and establish hunting seasons without legislative action. Prior, game animals needed to be declared in law, which subjected them to potential referendums(state wide ballot proposals). In 2006, for example, Michiganders overturned Public Act 160. PA 160 would have allowed for the hunting of mourning doves. Gov. Snyder signed the law(PA21) on May 8, 2013. Snyder justified his signature by noting, "This action helps ensure sound scientific and biological principles guide decisions about management of game in Michigan."

Little more on that:
https://ballotpedia.org/Michigan_Natural_Resources_Commission_Initiative_(2014)

The voting for APRs took place amongst licenses hunters only by mail ballot and it still, even after crazy support, still had to go under the scrutiny of the NRC to determine scientific management validity.  Took nearly 2 years of presentations and committee hearings for them to finally approve it.  They then only approved it for 5 years to gather data on harvest, herd health indicators, habitat impact, Hunter satisfaction, recruitment, retention, economic factors, etc(social science is science).  After 4 years though,  the data collected was enough proof to determine scientific validity and the second mail ballot initiative was processed, with those in favor going from 68%, to 78% after experiencing APRs for 4 years.  The ballot results then finalized APRs for the NW12 and the sunset provision making them temporary were lifted, thus making them permanent.  Our area of the state continues to be the only area gaining in hunter numbers, where the rest of the state has been hemorrhaging.  Hunter numbers and hunter satisfaction is all part of sound scientific management because of our roles in management. 

Because if hunters aren't happy, hunters won't hunt, if there are no hunters, then the only valid management tool available to managers is severely weakened. 

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I wasn't going to comment because its a subject about Michigan antler point restrictions, APR, which in my opinion is a weak version of Quality Deer Management, QDM. "My opinion", if one is trying to build a stronger and healthier deer herd, that person must show restraint in harvesting a deer and educate their selves on what to look for as well as to recognize the maturity of a animal.  The misconception here in southern Iowa is that people think there's a P&Y buck behind every tree, when there's not. I moved here from the east coast about 3 1/2 years ago. I bought a house with acreage and have practiced strict QDM when harvesting deer. And I have seen some benefits of my work. But here goes where the problem comes in, my neighbor do not practice QDM and take to the "brown down" method of hunting. They take anything, fawns, does and young bucks. This past October muzzle loader season they took 4 button bucks and one doe fawn. Even though I wasn't happy with their harvest, I can not tell one what to do on their own land. I've noticed this past year that my neighbors stand selections has been hugging my property line. Here is my point, QDM is only as good as your neighbors deer management. I also get the meat hunters view up to the point to where young bucks and fawns are taken. I've heard a lot of individuals say I'm a meat hunter when in reality they won't admit that they just got excited and took the very first deer that came into range. Trust me, I get excited as soon as I see a deer but I taught myself restraint. That's my opinion on the matter and hopefully I didn't ruffle anybody's feathers to much. Thanks for reading.

Last 2 posts by Greg Dudley are about the best I've seen on the subject of MANDATORY AR's. Take the emotion out and make the decisions based on best management practices for the herd - not the hunters.

Quote from: SteveB on November 29, 2018, 09:08:01 AM
Last 2 posts by Greg Dudley are about the best I've seen on the subject of MANDATORY AR's. Take the emotion out and make the decisions based on best management practices for the herd - not the hunters.

What if, in certain areas, APRs are the means in which to achieve that?

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Quote from: SteveB on November 29, 2018, 09:08:01 AM
Take the emotion out and make the decisions based on best management practices for the herd - not the hunters.

In principle this is good, but overlooks one big objective of management. In most states the deer herd is managed for the combined 1) good of the herd and 2) desires of the people of that state. The deer belong to the state and therefore are managed with the interests of all...or at least those who choose to have a voice. What's good for the hunter may not be good for the farmer...nurseryman...anti-hunter...etc. Like it or don't, they all have a say in how a state manages their deer. Some voices and votes speak louder than others, and luckily hunters tend to make their desires known.

So yes....deer herds are managed for the good of both: herd and hunter. It has to be a compromise. Again for the record, I don't support APRs intended to grow bigger antlers for trophy production. I don't have a problem with them when used as part of larger management strategy designed to bring better balance to a state's deer herd.

Thanks, gvdocholiday, for the thoughtful and well expressed response. 

I am familiar with the provisions that you refer to that are intended to safeguard science-based conservation. They are certainly a step in the right direction.   

I do not discount Hunter Satisfaction entirely, I just don't see it as the driving force for conservation decision making, which it has become in some locales.  I also think that factors that increase hunter satisfaction for experienced and seasoned hunters may work against hunter recruitment.  I don't think that many hunters who currently hunt will stop hunting because of a policy or practice, but I do think that you can reduce the amount of new participants if you make hoops too difficult, regulations too confusing, or success too elusive.

Greg I'm with you part of the way but I'm not on the part about making it more of a challenge. With, as I have listed above, what we have here like, the youth season, crossbows, all hunters can hunt from an elevated platform,  baiting, cameras, muzzleliaders that can shoot across an 80 rod field, liberal limits ( we get 2 bucks here plus). Here guys are hunting in houses with heaters and TV's.  I almost think the only way to really help this end of it is to give the deer a gun and train them to shoot. Sir, these comments are submitted respectfully but what people call hunting in my neck of the woods, should be called shooting.

Quote from: gregg dudley on November 29, 2018, 11:27:19 AM

Thanks, gvdocholiday, for the thoughtful and well expressed response. 

I am familiar with the provisions that you refer to that are intended to safeguard science-based conservation. They are certainly a step in the right direction.   

I do not discount Hunter Satisfaction entirely, I just don't see it as the driving force for conservation decision making, which it has become in some locales.  I also think that factors that increase hunter satisfaction for experienced and seasoned hunters may work against hunter recruitment.  I don't think that many hunters who currently hunt will stop hunting because of a policy or practice, but I do think that you can reduce the amount of new participants if you make hoops too difficult, regulations too confusing, or success too elusive.

All very important factors, and no doubt all given unique measuring weights in the modeling used to base management decisions.  They're all variables, and the best thing about variables is that they can be tweaked from year to year should they change. 

I think APR's are a variable, that for the time being, are going to be weighted heavily to determine the impact to several aspects of management...primarily the ecological, biological, and social. 

I'd much rather 'mandatory' not be necessary.  My long term goals, are to see them implemented while offering education and outreach by working with conservation clubs and orgs through MOU's, get to that level where those 78% who wanted it are willing to do it without the mandate, then remove the regulation.  I'd wager that less than half of the 78% who voted in favor are willing to pass young deer without the mandate...the whole, "if I don't shoot it my neighbor will" mindset is strong.  Once that's changed, it's changed.  No need for the regs. 

Here's a thought.  Let's make several public hunting areas "anything goes" and have several institute strict antler restrictions.  Five years down the road, where do you think most hunters will want to hunt?

Quote from: JohnV on November 29, 2018, 01:43:42 PM
Here's a thought.  Let's make several public hunting areas "anything goes" and have several institute strict antler restrictions.  Five years down the road, where do you think most hunters will want to hunt?

In the woods :dunno: :biglaugh:

I have mixed opinions on APR. It can be part of a management tool to manage a healthy deer herd, but antler size on its own does not help with that. I have seen deer aged by tooth wear and replacement at 3 1/2 years that were forkhorns. And in many cases hunters still shoot the first legal buck so your harvest changes from mostly 1 1/2 year old bucks to 2 1/2 year old bucks. I've heard hunters at managed hunts in trophy areas where APR and spread/main beam regs were instituted say, "don't pull that tape measure too tight". They came to a trophy area and still shot a barely legal buck...knowingly. Like so many things its about educating hunters and changes in attitudes that make APRs work. And that's harder to do than counting points.

Quote from: GCook on November 28, 2018, 06:04:43 PM
The meat hunters (brown and down crowd) will not hesitate to shoot the big buck that wanders off of the well managed property of someone practicing QDM then they will plaster it all over the forms and the book of faces.  It's hypocrisy at it's finest.

Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk

It isn't hypocrisy at all. Every hunter dreams of a buck with trophy antlers. But many hunters don't base the success of their hunt on it. I have shot many small bucks. Their antlers and the memories they have given me are just as valuable is the bigger deer I have shot.

In Michigan....get rifle season out of the rut. Start it December 1st instead of November 15th.

Tell me which deer mount means the most too me? Hint...it isn't the big one. I hunt for myself. Not to impress others, not for bragging rights.

(https://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h227/rnorris/wallm_zpsmmbngoqt.jpg) (https://s65.photobucket.com/user/rnorris/media/wallm_zpsmmbngoqt.jpg.html)

Roger it doesn't work that way.  There has to be a plan to manage  game populations or else the herds get out of control.  Either too few, too many or unbalanced sex numbers. 
I would bet the average hunter here understands that, even the ones against management regs, and would want to do what it takes to do what's right for the herds.
For example my brother had a group of guys that used to come hunt with him on a couple of properties he has access to where he lives west of Syracuse NY.  At first it was fine.  Deer numbers were up and the deer drives produced truck beds full of whatever deer they could hit with a slug.  Then deer numbers dipped, competition for hunting areas increased but the brown and down attitude for his guests didn't.  He tried to impress on them about letting young deer walk, only taking so many and what not.  He finally quit letting them hunt his spots.  They were family and friends and it caused hurt feelings that haven't been gotten over a decade later.
Too many hunters are in it for just themselves.  Those who implement and support management programs most often are looking out for the herd and end up benefiting those around them.
It's true most states do fall short on the ability to adjust regulations and practices to account for individual area needs.  That is mostly regs they follow and the politics involved with doing what they do.
But there has to be a plan or the needs will fail.  Just letting hunters do what they want without considering the biology of the herd and ecosystem is a bad plan.

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Quote from: GCook on November 30, 2018, 09:09:55 AM
Roger it doesn't work that way.  There has to be a plan to manage  game populations or else the herds get out of control.  Either too few, too many or unbalanced sex numbers. 
I would bet the average hunter here understands that, even the ones against management regs, and would want to do what it takes to do what's right for the herds.
For example my brother had a group of guys that used to come hunt with him on a couple of properties he has access to where he lives west of Syracuse NY.  At first it was fine.  Deer numbers were up and the deer drives produced truck beds full of whatever deer they could hit with a slug.  Then deer numbers dipped, competition for hunting areas increased but the brown and down attitude for his guests didn't.  He tried to impress on them about letting young deer walk, only taking so many and what not.  He finally quit letting them hunt his spots.  They were family and friends and it caused hurt feelings that haven't been gotten over a decade later.
Too many hunters are in it for just themselves.  Those who implement and support management programs most often are looking out for the herd and end up benefiting those around them.
It's true most states do fall short on the ability to adjust regulations and practices to account for individual area needs.  That is mostly regs they follow and the politics involved with doing what they do.
But there has to be a plan or the needs will fail.  Just letting hunters do what they want without considering the biology of the herd and ecosystem is a bad plan.

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We are talking 2 different states here....believe me, we don't have "just let the hunter do what he wants" in place. We have a pretty regulated system,with APR's in place in certain places, doe management, and a single or combo tag system that lets a hunter decide what his season will look like. If we choose the combo tag and 2 bucks, one of them has to have 4 points to a side.

And I have no problem with educating hunters to self regulate, to practice QDM. What I am against is the legislation of it all. There are infinite scenarios in which the individual hunter choosing to shoot a small buck is a desirable option.

The herd also has to be managed according to the habitat they are in.

Pa started that program 15 years ago, by issuing many more doe tags for certain areas.

There were so many deer in the mountains that no new growth was occuring.

They ate everything in sight and were skinny deer..

Now since the herd population has been reduced, new growth of good trees is evident.

And there are now some awesome bucks running those mountains.

I am thoroughly convinced that Michigan is hurting itself with 2 things:

Early youth/veteran/disabled hunt
Gun season during peak rut

SO MANY huge mature bucks are killed during the youth hunt, and so many are "suspect"....Daddy doing everything except squeezing the trigger (maybe)

Roger, there are rumblings that Michigan is going go move the gun opener to the nearest weekend to the 15th. Gun hunters are complaining about the middle of the week opening day. Young guys can't get time off.

Roger, as a disabled hunter I'm biting my tongue on that one.

Well, I haven't read all 6 pages of responses, but I throw my 2 cents in. I'm by no means a trophy hunter, but I've always taken the stand of if you want meat, shoot a doe. Let the small bucks grow a little. My personal practice is to let the spikes and fork horns go. I believe the state would benefit from a statewide point restriction, and statewide regulations instead of area by area regulations.

I hear complaints all the time about the lack of deer, so people shoot the first thing they see. Seems like to me that's contributing to the problem. I understand no one likes tag soup, but it only takes a couple years for a spike to grow into a nice buck. I think it's time for Michigan to catch up to the other midwest states, and I think it's possible, if the hunters would change their habits.

Tattoo Dave

Quote from: TattooDave on November 30, 2018, 09:59:03 AM
Well, I haven't read all 6 pages of responses, but I throw my 2 cents in. I'm by no means a trophy hunter, but I've always taken the stand of if you want meat, shoot a doe. Let the small bucks grow a little. My personal practice is to let the spikes and fork horns go. I believe the state would benefit from a statewide point restriction, and statewide regulations instead of area by area regulations.

I hear complaints all the time about the lack of deer, so people shoot the first thing they see. Seems like to me that's contributing to the problem. I understand no one likes tag soup, but it only takes a couple years for a spike to grow into a nice buck. I think it's time for Michigan to catch up to the other midwest states, and I think it's possible, if the hunters would change their habits.

Tattoo Dave

Some problems - 1/2 of my state does not have a doe as a choice unless you bowhunt.
If populations are low, shooting a doe is not the best management response.
And letting spikes and 4 points go to shoot another 1.5 buck with a couple more points makes no sense at all. Mandatory AR's for the most part simply target the best young deer - making any real measurable gains close to insignificant.
 

I'm thinking some point restrictions would be a lot better then the free for all in some areas we have now...

As far as shooting a doe, in my observations the doe population far outweighs the buck population in Michigan. Just my opinion, but the complaints of lack of deer are from guys hunting public lands, where the hunter to deer ratio is insane, causing way too much pressure and seems like every year more and more nocturnal activity, according to my trail cams anyway. And shooting the first deer that comes in range is a horrible solution.

Tattoo Dave

I'm with you all the way Roger. That youth season teaches no one how to hunt at all. I've been arguing with gun guys for years about the opener as well. I don't want them to do the weekend thing either. For my they should draw a line, maybe the shotgun line and manage the 2 areas differently for the Lower and manage the UP on its own too.

I disagree that the mentoring season doesn't teach young hunters how to hunt. Our grandkids have been hunting since they started the program. We taught them all the gun rules and each year we make them qualify before they go out. I have sat with one of them every year and contrary to the  B'S that someone else shot their deer ,our grandkids do all the hunting , assist in the track and gutting process. My 12 year old grand daughter can gut a deer as well as most that have posted on here. As far as the disabled vet goes, they can hunt all year around as far as I am concerned.  The complainers must not have kids or grand kids. Remember, if they are in the woods they ain't in jail.

I'm thoroughly enjoying and learning a lot from this thread. I'm also impressed that there hasn't been any name calling or arguments like on other forums. With that being said, I'm a 100% Disabled Veteran and I have to disagree with Roger...to a point.

First, even I don't like the youth/Liberty Hunt but as a disabled hunter I'm able to hunt that weekend too. I've never taken a deer during that time frame since the program began. I generally use it as another scouting opportunity to observe deer movement up close and personal. Where I disagree with it is in the fact that the APR's do not apply that weekend and weapon is allowed. In my neighborhood we had nine kids harvest nine bucks, most being within the APR reg but not all. I'm cool with getting kids out there but they seem to get younger and younger every year and I'm starting to think its the Dads that are doing the hunting. In the old days, I wait until I was 12 to legally hunt and I think we need to go back to that.

We also have the Independence Hunt mid-October which we all know basically sucks for hunting whitetails. This is the first year I've been able to see a buck or any deer for that matter since that program started. It was also the first year that I was able to harvest a mature 8pt. I abide by the APR and practice/self-regulate QDMA. I'm more than okay with combining the two seasons, youth and disabled Veterans. I'd actually prefer it to be in October too.

MI seems to change and add regulations seasons by season and I wish they'd collectively make up their minds as to what the standard is going forward. I agree we are shooting ourselves in the face with all the different seasons we have. I'd love to see gun season be a week long and it to be moved further into November after the Rut.

The answer is simple and needs no more than "EDUCATE do NOT legislate!!!!"

There is NO biological reason that legislatively allowing only shooting "mature" deer benefits anything other than the self professed "trophy hunters" watercooler braggadocios ego!!

"After all, it is not the killing that brings satisfaction; it is the contest of skill and cunning. The true hunter counts his achievement in proportion to the effort involved and the fairness of the sport." Dr. Saxton Pope

So letting a spike go to breed a doe that may bring a couple MORE fawns to the field isn't helping increase the deer heard. Two years ago I saw 9 spikes in one day that were let go. I could have shot anyone of them.Well I may not be a scientist and that wasn't a scientific study but I would have to say the next years deer heard was increased because of the APR in my area.

I guess I should have clarified my comments a bit. I do have a son. He didn't qualify for the youth hunt but he wouldn't have done it. He would have waited till the regular seasons. I see the youth hunt as a really easy time to get a buck, they are still in bachelor groups. That's when I really start to see bucks at my place. The weather makes it easy to be outside quite a bit different that the first few days of this gun season. It doesn't give a true representation of our gun season. Weather wise or pressure wise. Plus here we go killing bucks prior to them being able to breed at all. If we don't police ourselves, I think we need police. I think the youth hunt came about because Dads didn't want to give up their hunting time to be with the young hunter. Also please be advised Michigan is a very diverse state. I live near and hunt the Pigeon Rive State Forest. I have for 47 years. All game all seasons. We just do t have the game we used to. My son hunts 2 counties west with s few years of APRs under their belts and I can't get him to deer hunt with me. He sees a lot more 8 pets and bigger all the time. They might not work every where but they work here.

Quote from: Don Stokes on November 30, 2018, 09:58:28 AM
Roger, as a disabled hunter I'm biting my tongue on that one.

Don...it's the Youth Hunt I am talking about.

Quote from: Jon Stewart on November 30, 2018, 12:56:02 PM
So letting a spike go to breed a doe that may bring a couple MORE fawns to the field isn't helping increase the deer heard. Two years ago I saw 9 spikes in one day that were let go. I could have shot anyone of them.Well I may not be a scientist and that wasn't a scientific study but I would have to say the next years deer heard was increased because of the APR in my area.

John...the APR guys in our state don't care about herd size. They want antlers for the hero pictures. Pay attention to how many QDMA guy are sponsored by growth supplements,etc. It smells just like the crossbow carpetbaggers to me.

Quote from: Jon Stewart on November 30, 2018, 11:49:02 AM
I disagree that the mentoring season doesn't teach young hunters how to hunt. Our grandkids have been hunting since they started the program. We taught them all the gun rules and each year we make them qualify before they go out. I have sat with one of them every year and contrary to the  B'S that someone else shot their deer ,our grandkids do all the hunting , assist in the track and gutting process. My 12 year old grand daughter can gut a deer as well as most that have posted on here. As far as the disabled vet goes, they can hunt all year around as far as I am concerned.  The complainers must not have kids or grand kids. Remember, if they are in the woods they ain't in jail.

Jon...I know you, and I know that you utilized the youth season exactly as you describe. So did I. But you and I both know those pictures of 8 year olds with a .243 and 12 point aren't what the Youth Hunt was meant to be....and that 8 year old didn't "hunt" that deer.

With regards to veterans...you know my feelings there. You know what I have done and will continue to do for veterans. Hell, I AM one.  Disabled vets aren't abusing the deer herd. But it is coupled with the youth hunt. The entire early season nonsense we have going on accounts for a heckuva lot of mature bucks.

Ok fellas, I usually don't state my opinion on subjects like this but, I have read 6 pages completely. I don't think I saw where one person held my concerns. Does it matter at all APR, youth hunt, liberty, early, late, cwd, hotzones. How does anyone actually know if it works or not. mi has no mandatory deer registration of any kind anywhere except military base hunts.
     Hear me out before you stop reading. The DNR is guessing. I live in the cwd area. My wife and I can legally purchase 26 deer permits between us. BUT we don't have to register a one. How do they know what we killed?? Where are they getting their harvest #s from. They count the deer that pass them parked on the highway.
       Now like i said, I'm in the cwd area. Short answer, killing all the deer in this area won't stop it. Hasn't worked in any state that tried it. Cwd, bluetongue, madcow, scrappy, ehd. All the same spongeform. Desease, different stains. Just like different forms of cancer. Joe Bob down the Rd no longer dies of natural causes, some form of cancer. In our deer it's called NATURAL SELECTION. Ma nature at her finest. It will run its course, and we can't beat her. This desease has ALWAYS been here. We just have better ways to test for it now.
      Youth hunt or whatever you call it. How many kids do you know, under 12, that could kill A deer without heated scent free elevated blinds, legal shooting vise's with big rifles, 400yd muzzleloaders, and or xbows. Actually hunting. Not many.  What are we teaching by letting them do this?? And when they quit, hunting #s are declining. WHY?? They don't know how to hunt. It's too hard. Our fault, we let them do it.

       I believe mi should have state wide regulations. #s down in your area?? Go elsewhere. Everyone has that rite. So much public ground in this state that all taxpayers have access to. EVERYONE has a place to hunt. SOME if not MOST just won't put in the effort. And before it's brought up, I hunt 100 percent public land. 30 years now.
       I'm for one buck tag period. And a doe tag area of your choice. No public/private. Just an area. ALL DEER must be registered within 24hours of being killed. Once registered, another doe tag can be purchased for a specific area. So on and so on. ALL unused tags must be registered as not filled Before next year's tag may be purchased. If you buy it, it must be registered filled or unfilled.
   Now the DNR has some accurate useful data to set areas and quotas for. Age structure of animals in said area, and they will have the opportunity to really examine the health of said deer in specific areas. Actual real data collected by real people who are getting paid by all of us for guessing, up to the point this happens.
      I've hunted just about every county in our state. I am an archery hunter ONLY. I've hunted a dozen other states and provinces of Canada. I target bucks of mature age, not inches of antler. 4.5 and older. I am a trophy hunter, age and food for my family define what I consider a trophy. Strictly my choice. It's not for everyone. Nor should it be.
     Do APRs work?? They can, but in my opinion. It promotes the killing of immature 8s, 10s, 12s allowing bucks of inferior genetics to continue breeding does. The does are going to be bred, happens every year no matter what. So why not make our firearm and muzzleloader seasons rite then when they are most vulnerable. So we can complain about the #s and age class. I get the reasoning behind it.
       I've said enough, this is strictly my opinion, based on what I've seen and I believe. I will not nor have I ever made an apology for it. Will in no way argue about it. But I would like to continue this discussion. Lots of different views on alot of subjects. I think we all agree a change is a must for the future of hunting in mi.     Thanks Dennis

Fellas after re-sending my previous post, please don't read into my choice of hunting more than it is. I didn't say or even insinuate that I consistently kill mature animals on state land in mi. More times than not their skills in survival far exceeds my skill at shooting a bow. Putting myself in the rite place at the rite time to even lay eye's on a mature deer(buck or doe) on public ground in MI is what I'm after. I go 2-3 years sometimes without killing one. I do consistently find them every year, most years I come close. And most years they win. Have to play by their rules, your in their house. They have a stacked deck. After 30 years I like to think I'm getting better at shuffling, but I'm not sure.  Thanks for reading.
                                Dennis

Well said Dennis. Thank you jumping in the pool with the rest of us. Your last post reminds me of a hunt I had 15 or so years ago. It was New Years Eve morning hunt. Cold frosty morning, 0830 or so here they come down the runway heading to the swamp. I had seen a big buck here since early archery but couldn't even identify number of points. One die passed and started browsing on the edge then another and another, 6 total with another big body still coming. I stood when I saw antlers, he walked behind a hemlock and I drew. When he stepped out at 11 yds, I saw he was a huge 6 pt. , on one side. The last day of season and after 3 months of stalking here he was, unaware. I let down my draw slowly and watched him push his harem into the swamp after about 20 mins. I didn't have the heart to kill him. He had made it that far, having breakfast with his ladies, I figured he earned another chance. This area isn't an APR area but he was the last mature buck I've seen there. I think for me, I like to see how close I can get to them more than anything. I like to watch them. We eat 2-3 deer a year but most of these are does taken from a beef ranchers place with his landowner tags. They do eat a lot better than the big boys but they aren't as much fun to pursue. Sorry if this got long winded, but Dennis's post invoked a memory.

Well I have to disagree with Dennis on one of his points about kids learning to hunt. It use to be, way back when, that when you turned 14 you bought a license and could hunting because you turned 14. Now the DNR have several steps in place to change that so when a young hunter "comes of age", he/she can go into the woods with some training under their belt. The mentoring/youth hunt is part of that training.
My son and I train the grand kids to hunt, track, gut and and cut up the deer. To write, "maybe" the 10 year old shot that 12 point is a blanket statement that is just not true. Now my grand kids are also excellent archers as well but until they pass our shooting test they can't bow hunt. I put out a 3 D target where they hunt and if they don't shoot well they don't hunt. Basically they have to qualify and they know it and don't fuss about if if they don't, they practice more.

I remember helping our now 22 year old grandson with his hunter safety. I helped with the weapon handling portion. I told him never to receive a firearm with out having the the person handing it over to check it for safe first. Well he remembered that on test day. The kids were divided into small groups for test out purposes..  The weapon handling instructor handed my grandson a shotgun. My grandson handed it back and asked the instructor to check it for safe, "please". The instructor did so and handed my grandson the shot gun and then he checked it safe safe and took the test. As the group left he asked, who taught him that and I told him that I did. The instructor told me that he had learned something that day and that he had never had a student do that before. 

Of course I understand that not everyone does the things that we do but I can tell you this. My grandkids will enter the woods very prepared when the time comes. So don't make blanket statements about maybe they shoot the big buck or they are not learning anything from the mentoring/youth hunt because some are.

Quote from: okcaveman on November 26, 2018, 07:33:26 AM
I come at this from a biology background, and I wholly disagree with apr's.

I do agree with managing a herd for more mature animals, but there will always be those animals that don't have the genetics to meet those requirements. Given enough time, I feel they will become the best fit to survive. On the same token, I have seen young bucks with great genetics that were killed because they met those requirements.

I think it is far better to have a state educational program trying to educate people on the benefits of a mature deer herd, and in most instances, killing a doe for meat instead of a immature buck.

Educating people so that they willingly make management decisions that are better for the overall population is the best way to go imho.

With all that said, with gun/compound/traditional muzzleloader I aim for mature bucks and does for the freezer. With my trad equipment, I am still at the stage of taking the opportunity that is given. It's my choice, as I think it should be

Although I agree genetics plays a role and some bucks with the genetics for above average antler growth will be killed at an early age, the number of points a buck sports is generally well correlated with age and it is the easiest thing for a hunter to judge quickly in the field.  Also, one needs to remember that half of the genetic material in a buck comes from a doe and I have yet to see anyone who can judge how big of a buck a given doe will produce.

APRs have certainly worked in PA where we have high hunting pressure.  I killed this buck a few years ago in an area where when I was a kid you never saw anything larger than a 6 point with a spread wider than it's ears.  Same area, same genetics, but now allowed to live at least another year or two. (No, it's not a monster, but it's respectable by PA standards and my biggest).

(http://i.imgur.com/qUBGTNn.jpg?1) (https://imgur.com/qUBGTNn)

Hey Jon
      Very well said. I have 3 daughters myself. I also have 3 grandchildren. I raised them all hunting and fishing. And will continue to do so.
      Now let me ask you this. How is the mentored youth program helping the way you teach your children and maybe others children hunter ethics, gun safety and all the other things we learned over time? Would you not teach these things without the program?
      Of course you would, and you did. So did I. The thing that the programs are taking away is patience, having to wait till they are mature enough to handle the responsibility of taking a life. All the things that go with it. And to understand the work that goes in before pulling the trigger.
      Hunting in my house is a privilege that is earned. The reward for the effort they put in. Most children do not have the level of maturity needed to handle that privilege. Mine included.
        You and I are doing it rite. They are going to learn the rite way ( if they choose to participate) with or without any mentored youth program.
       We are the minority brother. Most now feel my child has the rite to hunt at whatever age. They can't shoot enough poundage, they can't shoot an adequate caliber. But I can go buy them a crossbow or a smaller caliber or wait, I can go get a shooting vice to put it in. They won't have to do anything but pull the trigger. Pulling the trigger my friends is not hunting.
    I'm with you Jon. We need to involve as many children as possible. Teach them the rite way. Ethics,safety, responsibility, woodsmanship. All things that will help them with all things they do in life. Patience is key.
     I'm going to agree that you and I have to disagree. We are the minority. Most parents don't have the ethics and or morals to take on the responsibility taking of life demands. Much less ,pass what they don't have ,on to their children. I don't believe most even know the harm they are causing. They don't know or understand.
    Yep, we are the minority.                 Thanks
Dennis
                                                       

Dennis, I agree with you. To answer your question.  It allows or makes us teach them at an earlier age where if the hunting age was back at 14 that may not happen. To be honest if the mentoring season didn't happen I don't think I would be teaching my 8 year old gun safety and having him qualify to hunt.  I hate to brag about my grand kids but I will, lol. They know more about hunting and tracking than some adults but I/we spend a lot of time with them. I am retired and the kids are home schooled.  My 6 year old grandson knows not to nock an arrow before he is at the shooting stake, knows to stand behind the shooting stake and knows when it is safe to shoot.   BUT we still understand they are little kids so we keep an eye on them.  I just wish more parents and grand parents would spend more time with their kids   to teach them the sport of archery.

And yes I couldn't wait until I was 14 to go hunting. It was like I come of age, lol but we never had classes and had to rely on dad or grandpa to teach us. I think in that respect the state has done it right with the mandatory hunter safety program.

I live in northern Wisconsin, where baiting is legal and there is corn on every 40. I would love to see some type of deer management which would allow the young 1.5 year old bucks to survive. The young buck just get hammered by cross bows, rifles and compounds etc. If baiting went away I may have a different opinion of antler restriction's more than likely.

Hey Jon
    Sounds like we are agreeing after all. The kids are the ones who will ultimately deal with the consequences for the choices made today. My goals and opinions are not shared by many or most mi residents that I speak with. Which are very few at this point. My brother and I do what we do, hunt how we hunt because that's what we have chosen over the years. We didn't have the luxury of anyone to help us as we learned about this archery lifestyle that we both live today.
      With all the modern distractions my grand kids are facing none of which are outdoor related, it is getting difficult to keep them interested in my lifestyle. Don't push to hard keep it fun for them. In the process I have found some extra enjoyment in some of the simple things often overlooked when you take things as seriously as we do our deer hunting.
        I just bought another squirrel dog to start training, kids love puppies. Hunting this way takes all the pressure off. Don't have to be quiet, sit still, my horns are bigger. None of the things that shooting a deer has become to the majority of the people you talk to. Simple and fun, the way it started out for us. We progressed over time. Anything other than the biggest buck isn't good enough for most kids nowadays. It's to much pressure on them to be successful, if you don't kill one, well, you must have failed. Failing isn't fun. No wonder most will end up quitting at some point. I believe that carries over into whatever they do later on. Quitting wasn't hard at all, I'm not going to work this hard, I'll just quit. Seen it so my any times. And it's sad.                                Good day all
     Dennis
                                                             

I'm in favor of our combo tags I'm strictly against APRs. Hunter numbers are very low because kids can't go and enjoy a hunt because some so called professional wants to add negative comments about a 4pt the youngster killed and was damn proud of it. If that spike 4pt 6pt or any other 1.5 old bucks makes me happy I'll kill it And it is nobodies business but my own if its killed legally and ethically. Same goes for my kids we don't need nor do I want anyone telling me what size a buck has to be to make my happy

Mike your post is one of the things I was alluding to. Your area has so many more deer, more good feed and milder winters. Up here we don't have the numbers for the combo tag. Maybe we should do 1 buck and then once you check that buck you get a doe tag. I agree with you that the success of a young or any hunter should be predicated in the opinion of some moron in TV. This state shouldn't manage or mismanage if you will, my area and your area alike. We need help up here. I think APRs is the answer until we are willing to do some other things to help.

Quote from: Chain2 on December 01, 2018, 08:00:16 PM
Mike your post is one of the things I was alluding to. Your area has so many more deer, more good feed and milder winters. Up here we don't have the numbers for the combo tag. Maybe we should do 1 buck and then once you check that buck you get a doe tag. I agree with you that the success of a young or any hunter should be predicated in the opinion of some moron in TV. This state shouldn't manage or mismanage if you will, my area and your area alike. We need help up here. I think APRs is the answer until we are willing to do some other things to help.

You maybe right Chain2 just my opinion. I've hunted in the U.P haven't looked where your located but if I lived north of my area my feeling on APRs wouldn't change. I wouldn't tell another hunter what to kill its not my place hunting used to be and still should be a means of putting meat on the table first and foremost. So if it would be a spike or fork horn for a hunter that depends on a deer than so be it

You folks understand that your argument is with the state and not other hunters. They took a survey and based on the survey results the regulations were set. You buy a license and the state tells you what you can kill. I am for APR's because they have made our hunting better. It is just that simple we have been seeing more deer and more bucks over the last couple years. I would guess the best thing that those that are against the APR's would be attend a meeting and voice your concerns. If you don"t then it is a mute point.

Quote from: Jon Stewart on December 01, 2018, 10:02:13 PM
You folks understand that your argument is with the state and not other hunters. They took a survey and based on the survey results the regulations were set. You buy a license and the state tells you what you can kill. I am for APR's because they have made our hunting better. It is just that simple we have been seeing more deer and more bucks over the last couple years. I would guess the best thing that those that are against the APR's would be attend a meeting and voice your concerns. If you don"t then it is a mute point.

Your entitled to pass on small racked deer completely your choice but it may not be mine or some other hunter who feels fortunate enough and is happy with the deer they have an opportunity to kill. Shoot what you want I'll do the same. I've wrote my government officials concerning my thoughts on this very subject and givin the time if at all possible I will attend a meeting if there is a meeting

Yup, that is all someone can do. Make calls and attend meetings. Keep in mind it is the state that dictates what you can shoot, not other hunters. Other hunters voiced an opinion just like you did. I called Chad Stewart with the DNR and told him that APR's were working in our area and he appreciated the input. I am sure he would like to hear from everyone. You young guys wouldn't like the "restrictions" that were in place when I started hunting. One deer only either with a gun or a bow.

To me, deer hunting is deer hunting the antlers are not the species the deer is. I also agree with Mr. Dudley's comments.

How do like this guys. One deer per year unless you pay more for a draw then get drawn, with APR and does only opened in a few areas of the state. Then you have the master hunter program that allows you some access to privet lands but most of this goes to the friends and family of the land owners.

Just yesterday I heard a land owner braging that they had killed 6 cow Elk on his land with in the first hour of light.
Then add in no hounds on preditors and in the reinterduction of Wolfes.

The "putting meat on the table" arguement doesn't help your cause. In Missouri a 1.5 year old buck will average about 130lbs field dressed. A 3.5 year old 190lbs field dressed.  That is a significant size difference and a lot more meat just by letting a deer get some age on it.

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Here we tried to get everyone to do the QDM but not enough did. I guess that's why we're talking about this in the first place, both sides of the fence thinking they are correct. I think if you're talking food or horns the herd needs to be managed. You couldn't run a beef herd like this or any herd. You can't base any findings in data that the only common denominator is the subject at hand. We gave less feed natural or otherwise. No one farms here anymore. We have awful winters. Maybe not as severe as years past but they last forever. Anyone in my area last April? Our predators have increased with larger number of coyotes and the re introduction of the wolf. Habitat is shrinking with larger tracks of land being split up. Everyone wants a house up north. For those of us who have spent a lot of time in the woods, here, for the last half century in the same area know we can't continue to slaughter like we have been. I don't like the government or anyone else telling me what to do but how else are we going to save anything for generations to come? No youth season, one buck per hunter, register that buck and you can get a for tag.Gun hunt the first 15 days of December. No baiting. Crossbows hunt with the black powder guys. Heck, we could even take away elevated platforms for rifle and muzzleliaders. Do this and you wouldn't need APRs. Shoot any buck, check it. Keep hunting.

 I myself wasn't for AR'S here in Pa., now I'm all for them,  my last 3 bucks have been my best and I've been at it since the late 60's and have been lucky enough to have harvested a deer for every year I've hunted. IMO they work and think we're all trophy hunters at heart put a basket racked 6 point and a 20 inch 10 point at equal distance from the stand and tell me which one will get shot at.

       MI has so many different types of areas and they are all different. I live in West Central, I have a house in the eastern UP(Drummond island), and a camp in western lower UP(faithhorn). While that isn't every area, I can and do understand different people's concerns.
      I belong to different hunting clubs, I'm on the board of one sportsman club, I attend meetings when possible. Most meetings end up just like this thread. I believe this is a discussion about APRs to begin with other topics involved that do relate. Others have viewed it as an argument amongst ourselves. Some will see it as a waste of time. If keeping these threads going open the eyes of only one person, or let's someone see another side of things. Educates another about unseen or unthought of issues. Then the time isn't wasted, the issues are not going to just go away. Write letters, go to meetings, talk to people, join clubs, organizations, associations, or many other options. It's not your opinion or choice that is most important. More than anything it's your involvement. Numbers are what matters. In MI, if we could get even half of the hunters to come together and just agree there NEEDS to be a change. Just come together. We would not be stopped, our numbers are so large we couldn't be voted down. We have an army of hunters here. Together we can be strong. Until that happens, things will change the way they want it to.
         There isn't a solution that everyone will agree on, every one of us will lose something to gain something. Nobody will have it the exact way they want it. It will be a give and take.  But without coming together, it will continue on the way it is. I think we do agree that isn't what anyone wants. And that is state wide.
       Don't change anything next year. But add mandatory registration for all tags purchased. Check-in at private volunteer business's. Brings revenue to them for their time.  And above all else, it will give actual data, real numbers, fact's instead of guesses and incomplete information. That can be used to make educated choices based on real information. Doesn't matter your stand or opinion, for once it will be real factual information... I think that is the place to start.
            Thanks for reading.
                 Dennis

[/quote]

Quote from: GCook on December 02, 2018, 10:13:48 AM
The "putting meat on the table" arguement doesn't help your cause. In Missouri a 1.5 year old buck will average about 130lbs field dressed. A 3.5 year old 190lbs field dressed.  That is a significant size difference and a lot more meat just by letting a deer get some age on it.

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Says you but not the hunter that depends on that deer or the hunter who get a very limited time to spend in the woods

So you let the spike go because of APR,s and he breeds a doe. Next spring you have at least 3 deer, the spike, the doe and the fawn. How is that not increasing the deer herd as a result of the APR's? You shoot the spike in archery season and that doesn't happen.

The number of deer in our state is part of the problem. In my area we have a lot of deer more restrictions will just make it worse. I am fine with a spike if the mood strikes me. Its obvious that what makes other hunters feel successful is completely different I'm fine with that couldn't careless but if these APRs happen that some folks want to happen hunter numbers will drop even more. Not everyone thinks a great season ends with a bigger antlered deer so force people to be passive and not kill a deer and see what happens

For well over a decade, my part of Texas has had a restriction system based on inside spread that works very well. You get two buck tags, one for a spike and one for a branch antlered buck. The branch antlered buck has to have at least a 13" inside spread which is also the common distance between ear tips on a buck looking straight at you. This restriction protects all 1 1/2 year old's and most 2 1/2 year old deer. [Yes you could have a 3 1/2+ yr old buck that was not 13" but it is very rare.] Since this reg went into effect, the number of mature bucks in the woods has gone up drastically. Most branch antlered bucks killed are 3 1/2+ and harvest numbers are as high as they were before the regulation.

As an added bonus, we get higher fawn survival due to less predator loss. This is how that works. State biologist have harvested does in January-feburary (roughly 100 each time)and removed the fetus and by measuring it can determine almost to the day when the doe was bred. They found that the main rut got shorter and there was almost no second rut because virtually all the does got bred the first go around. Aparenty the older bucks are better at "taking care of business".  This puts most of the fawns on the ground in a narrow time window and since a predator is only going to eat so many per week, more of the fawns are alive as they grow out of that first four high risk weeks of life.


So, it seems that the restrictions have been a big win for herd numbers as well as having more mature bucks in the woods. IMO, one of the best regulations TPWD has ever passed. Surveys show hunter approval in the high 80% range.

Quote from: GCook on December 02, 2018, 10:13:48 AM
The "putting meat on the table" arguement doesn't help your cause. In Missouri a 1.5 year old buck will average about 130lbs field dressed. A 3.5 year old 190lbs field dressed.  That is a significant size difference and a lot more meat just by letting a deer get some age on it.

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"If you just want meat, shoot a doe" says the APR advocate. But I don't just want meat. I can buy meat. I want the memory of the hunt. I want to hunt my way, make my own choices. Don't tell me what a trophy is, I'll decide on my own.

If I eat red meat it is venison 90+% of the time.  I've had three heart attacks, have 5 stents, including one in my upper LAD and am fairly careful about fat intake due to cardiovascular disease.   My family eats 3 to 4 deer a year.  Granted they are smaller here in Texas.   I've hunted in AR counties before but this county is not regulated by them.  In the years I did those counties herds flourished despite the long tirades by guys on the hunting forums.
I worked over 30 years with a water department.  Spent most of that on call 24/7.  Took every minute of OT I could get and the last 10 years my hunting time was significantly impacted and it was a challenge to fill my tags but I managed by being blessed to hunt in Texas.  We have areas with great herds.  The last 4 years I've had my own business.  Not tha I cannot live on my retirement but 2 friends and I bought a ranch and it's expensive and time consuming.  This is the second weekend I've hunted my lease and season has been open 8 weeks.  This 3 year old 10pt in front of me is a nice young buck but he won't weigh but 100lbs field dressed and in 3 years he'll probably score close to 170.   
But he will never reach that potential if I loose an arrow on him today.  We've had guys leave this lease because they can't abide by the management program saying if they pay their money they should be able to shoot what makes them happy. Truth is I liked those guys and hated to see them go but in just 2 years the plan is paying off with three 140 class bucks killed this season.  Unfortunately I haven't seen one yet but . . 
I can't speak for Michigan but QDM works in many places. 
Like said above.  Get with your DNR and work with them.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181202/c198e4ee417ea0eeb03f80a8df269e0d.jpg)

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Quote from: GCook on December 02, 2018, 05:27:47 PM
If I eat red meat it is venison 90+% of the time.  I've had three heart attacks, have 5 stents, including one in my upper LAD and am fairly careful about fat intake due to cardiovascular disease.   My family eats 3 to 4 deer a year.  Granted they are smaller here in Texas.   I've hunted in AR counties before but this county is not regulated by them.  In the years I did those counties herds flourished despite the long tirades by guys on the hunting forums.
I worked over 30 years with a water department.  Spent most of that on call 24/7.  Took every minute of OT I could get and the last 10 years my hunting time was significantly impacted and it was a challenge to fill my tags but I managed by being blessed to hunt in Texas.  We have areas with great herds.  The last 4 years I've had my own business.  Not tha I cannot live on my retirement but 2 friends and I bought a ranch and it's expensive and time consuming.  This is the second weekend I've hunted my lease and season has been open 8 weeks.  This 3 year old 10pt in front of me is a nice young buck but he won't weigh but 100lbs field dressed and in 3 years he'll probably score close to 170.   
But he will never reach that potential if I loose an arrow on him today.  We've had guys leave this lease because they can't abide by the management program saying if they pay their money they should be able to shoot what makes them happy. Truth is I liked those guys and hated to see them go but in just 2 years the plan is paying off with three 140 class bucks killed this season.  Unfortunately I haven't seen one yet but . . 
I can't speak for Michigan but QDM works in many places. 
Like said above.  Get with your DNR and work with them.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20181202/c198e4ee417ea0eeb03f80a8df269e0d.jpg)

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I'm not saying QDMA doesn't work I'm saying I don't want it shoved down my throat to the point I have to do it. I don't hunt for a big rack sure I like to kill a big deer if the opportunity presents itself but if it doesn't I'm fine with that also because I am satisfied shooting whatever buck I choose to

Quote from: Roger Norris on December 02, 2018, 03:43:19 PM

Quote from: GCook on December 02, 2018, 10:13:48 AM
The "putting meat on the table" arguement doesn't help your cause. In Missouri a 1.5 year old buck will average about 130lbs field dressed. A 3.5 year old 190lbs field dressed.  That is a significant size difference and a lot more meat just by letting a deer get some age on it.

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"If you just want meat, shoot a doe" says the APR advocate. But I don't just want meat. I can buy meat. I want the memory of the hunt. I want to hunt my way, make my own choices. Don't tell me what a trophy is, I'll decide on my own.

Right on Roger

Quote from: Jon Stewart on December 02, 2018, 02:10:41 PM
So you let the spike go because of APR,s and he breeds a doe. Next spring you have at least 3 deer, the spike, the doe and the fawn. How is that not increasing the deer herd as a result of the APR's? You shoot the spike in archery season and that doesn't happen.

That sounds good in theory but in reality very few does go unbred.  Even if you kill the spike, the doe he might have bred (statistics actgually show that yearling bucks relatively small amount of the breeding) will get bred anyway.  Ironically, by targeting only mature bucks, you almost guarantee that more does will be bred by the surviving younger bucks. 

Interesting points on both sides about youth seasons.  I do not favor youth seasons, but I understand why they exist.   It is so people will actually take their kids hunting.  It is sad, but true. 

I certainly do not favor antler restrictions for kids.  I also don't agree with age restrictions for kids as hunters.  Get them out there.  Get them some success.  Give them something to hang on their wall.  Let them feel a part of the brotherhood.    Let them do that with some regularity.  THEN, influence them to be more selective if you want to.

I think that the references to kids hunting in big blinds with rifles on a rest and heaters is funny because that is how more than half of the adults that are out there hunt.  If it isn't coming to a feeder or a food plot 2/3 of the people out there wouldn't have a chance of killing it.  Who cares?  People have various levels of interest, time, and resources that influence the way they hunt and there is far more than one dimension to the hunting experience.  The problem is that we forget that.  We think everyone's hunting scenario is like ours. 

Don't pass laws that restrict people's enjoyment of the outdoors unless there is a sound biological reason for doing so.  Do whatever you want to do that is more conservative or more restrictive, but allow others to enjoy the outdoor experience at the level they are on without infringing on it.

I've been the most critical I guess over the youth season and anyone not just kids hunting in heated blinds. By no means am I saying that they shouldn't be able to hunt in a blind or whatever. I'm saying that we've made so many opportunities available to kill deer as I've listed in other posts and we have more surefire methods of doing so as I have also mentioned in earlier posts, we should try to level the playing field a little. I don't think nor do I want to imply that I am Lord of all Deer. Until everyone realizes that their means and methods affects all of us in this state, I'd like to see the herd managed accordingly.

Roger, the government has been telling you what to shoot long before the APR's came into play, especially with a rifle. If you get a doe permit then that is what you shoot and if you get a buck tag then that is what you shoot.  They just told you what you can shoot.  APR's are not a statewide thing. You can always go to an area where there are no APR's and shoot away or to the U.P. where in most areas you cannot shoot a doe. I know those folks are not happy about that. I no that no matter what the rules are not everyone is going to be happy but I know that in my area we are seeing more deer, more bucks and in some cases many larger bucks.  AND, I haven't shot a deer with a bow in 4 years and that is by choice. I leave them for my grandkids.

BUT no-one should blame other hunters for these restrictions as they were made by the state.

Quote from: Jon Stewart on December 03, 2018, 02:55:09 PM
Roger, the government has been telling you what to shoot long before the APR's came into play, especially with a rifle. If you get a doe permit then that is what you shoot and if you get a buck tag then that is what you shoot.  They just told you what you can shoot.  APR's are not a statewide thing. You can always go to an area where there are no APR's and shoot away or to the U.P. where in most areas you cannot shoot a doe. I know those folks are not happy about that. I no that no matter what the rules are not everyone is going to be happy but I know that in my area we are seeing more deer, more bucks and in some cases many larger bucks.  AND, I haven't shot a deer with a bow in 4 years and that is by choice. I leave them for my grandkids.

BUT no-one should blame other hunters for these restrictions as they were made by the state.

Jon - Those restrictions were, for the most part, lobbied for by other hunters. Just like the crossbow law.

I respect you too much to argue, so I won't. But there are a lot of ways to accomplish this without restricting some hard working, limited time hunter from killing the buck of his choice.

Here's a thought...no more button bucks on an antler-less tag, and no more deer drives. How many button bucks are killed or wounded on deer drives in the proposed APR area? Plenty. We banned drives on our farm years ago after a drive resulted in 6 button bucks being killed.

There are lots of ways to increase the percentage of 4.5 year old deer without infringing on another hunters choices.

I've been watching this for a few days and would like to give my opinion on APRs.  I have done the majority of my hunting in the APR area of the northwest lower since the mid 90's.  Over that time I have seen the area I hunt go from one of the highest deer density areas to being below average for the last 10 years or so.  I believe this is due to high numbers of doe permits continuing to be issues beyond when they should have been, many other hunting opportunities and methods becoming available to hunters, a large increase in coyote populations (in my area) as well changes in habitat management due to decreasing funds available to public agencies.  I hunt mainly public land surrounding the camp I own with doing occasional road trips to public lands in other counties within the APR area.  The deer populations appear to be relatively low throughout the APR areas I have hunted when compared to areas of southern Michigan I hunt.

I see the APRs as an attempt by the State and area businesses to encourage hunting these low population areas as there are not as many deer to attract downstate hunters more than as a true management tool.  Hunter numbers are down significantly in my area compared to 15  to 20 years ago.  People just are not willing to take time and spend money to travel north when you may not even see a deer.  The chance of seeing a big deer may help attract a few people north.  I went from seeing 1 buck per 10 does in the 90's to seeing 3 does and one buck now on the typical weekend.  I think that reflects changes in  the relative population distribution and the deer densities in the areas I hunt.  With the current low populations and my limited hunting time, if I have a shot a legal buck, I'm taking it. Everyone I talk to that hunts in my area expresses the same. 

I am hopeful that the baiting ban being implemented for 2019 will force the deer to be more active and distribute more evenly across my hunting areas as the other big problem we have is the larger private land owner's putting out large quantities of bait that hold deer in their area and off the public land.

Roger, In no way am I arguing with you or anyone else as I consider this a pretty civil discussion which on the net don't happen too often.  We try as hard as we can to identify buttons and don't shoot them. Actually I can't remember the last time a button was shot on my property.  I guess I am happy with the APR in my area and I would be just as happy if they were lifted. It really doesn't matter much to me at my age anymore.

Deer drives haven't happened on my place in probably 30 years and were done by my neighbor after we left for the season.  I have never heard of a deer drive in bow season.

There is a group around my place in the NWL that do drives every weekend. They use xbows and wear Bluetooth head pieces.

I think this discussion has been fantastic. Both sides of the aisle, as they say, have done so in a very civilized manner. I've gotten to see the other side and ponder their points. It would be fun to do in person, maybe near Knob Creek, we could let Jack and Jim referee!

Quote from: Chain2 on December 03, 2018, 08:02:07 PM
I think this discussion has been fantastic. Both sides of the aisle, as they say, have done so in a very civilized manner. I've gotten to see the other side and ponder their points. It would be fun to do in person, maybe near Knob Creek, we could let Jack and Jim referee!

Where is knob Creek

It's on the top shelf in the right past Woodford Reserve.

Quote from: Chain2 on December 03, 2018, 09:15:15 PM
It's on the top shelf in the right past Woodford Reserve.

Got ya  :biglaugh:

I'm not a fan of spread or antler point restrictions. We had a bunch of WMAs in KY with 15" or greater rule for a few years. They were abolished.  Sort of like taking the straightest, tallest, and most limb-free white oaks from a stand .... high-grading.

QDM is a big-time turn-off for me because of those types of rules. 

I AM a huge fan of 1 buck/season rules.  That did the trick for KY since its inception in the early 90's. It doesn't take but 2-3 years to show impressive results.  Improved our herd's age structure dramatically.

While QDMA/APR have helped with some herds, and I mostly say agree in the general philosophy of it, I'm more concerned with the potential for legal over reach and over regulation. What happens if they decide to up it to 6pts per side, or moratoriums for a couple years on buck, some places require a doe first, maybe it's two or even 3 does before a buck.

What if.....

That's a big foot in the door that can be used for a lot of other things.

Maybe some of these arguments have some merit.  I'm not informed enough to know either way.  But it has a level of extravagance that I simply cannot comprehend.  Whatever you think, just keep it all in perspective.  Lots of us public land hunters in CA would gladly pay triple our already high license & tag fees for the does & small bucks many of you discard as unworthy.

I don't think any of us for APR's are implying that young bucks aren't worthy. We are saying let them grow up and there will be more and bigger bucks for all. Every animal that gives its life for my self and my family is most worthy.

I think this thread is  :deadhorse:

I'm tappin out

We are loosing hunters every year in Pennsylvania.  The Game Commission is constantly saying, "What can we do to get and keep young hunters?"  So I have my 17 yr. old grandson and his 17 yr. old friend out hunting with me in bow and rifle season.  Both have bucks come within range but because they are no longer a "Jr. Hunter" they can't shoot because there's now antler restrictions on them.  Both of them said they weren't sure they wanted to keep hunting because it's not as exciting as before.  I have more than a dozen people I graduated with who always hunted but now that they are older have quit because they just can't count points as a deer is moving through the woods so what's the use?  If our 20-50 crowd, who grew up watching controlled hunts on TV, want to have AR's then allow them to do it but if you want hunters in the woods let them shoot a deer.  I had 30+ buck in to my stands this year and only 3 that were legal.  Think about being an excited teenager again and having that happen.  I wonder why the hunter numbers are dropping?

The area where I live & hunt needs restriction, both in antler points, and bag limits.

It wouldn't hurt my feelings if they went to a one buck (with antler restrictions), and one doe limit for the entire season.

These yahoos around here shoot everything they see, and the deer population, and quality has suffered a lot.

   Longbowman   not meaning to offend here, but at 17. They aren't youth hunters anymore. I understand new hunters wanting to be successful, and they hopefully are. We want them to be.
     But, as responsible, ethical hunters. There are always going to be guidelines that must be followed. Always will be. Has to be.
      If they are seeing that many bucks in one season and not feeling good about it, well. There may be another issue. Lots of people in alot of places don't see that many bucks in 10 years.
      They wanna quit why??? Because they didn't get the chance to kill a buck. At 17 years old, they should know that it's hunting. Not killing. They are not getting it, the experience, the effort, hardworking, and time put forth, more times than not. Will not be rewarded with a deer to drag home.
      My opinion only. If the hunting season is only enjoyed if the end result is a kill. Well, they are going to quit anyway.
                Thanks
               Dennis

I hunt PA, NJ and sometimes NY.  I think that antler restrictions are a good think.  My personal rule for bowhunting is 16" inside spread (ear tip to ear tip) or better.  I comply with the number of points on top of that.  I like the idea of not picking the fruit before it is ripe.  I'm a Brothers of the Bow fan.

The people that I know who oppose antler restrictions seem to be the folks that measure their satisfaction with the hunting experience strictly by whether they killed something.  I'm to old for that now.  I had dozens of skippers walk past my stand that kept on walking.  There are years when I don't take a buck.  That's OK.  I am in it for the hunt.

I think that hunter numbers are down because too many folks cheapen and pollute the hunting experience with commercialism and blood lust.  And the PA Came Commission is one of the worst offenders!  What are they doing allowing cross-bows, weapons that bear NO RESEMBLANCE to a real bow and boast 3 inch groups at 100 yards, to be used during the archery season?  Look at the ads that full the regulation digest!  It takes half an hour to find season dates because they are submerged in an ocean of ads for all sorts of gimmicks that you just gotta have if you want to kill something.  Why would a youngster want to be part of that?  I sure as h*ll don't!

When you put the hunt back into hunting, non-hunters become potential participants.  But all the commercialism and media noise drown-out what it is all supposed to be about.

JMC

I guess my final post is. Obey the laws, don't get mad at those of us that like APR's as we didn't set the law the state did and if you don't like what the laws are then go to a meeting or contact someone by phone or mail. If the complainers don't contact someone then you have no complaint. I like APR's.  I  made contact with Chad Stewart and told him so.  I like them because we see MORE deer and not because we see bigger bucks.

And just an FYI. There will be more changes in laws. We just don't know what they are yet so if you are going to be mad, you are going to be mad for a long time. Not everyone is going to be happy.

I hunt long bow right through gun season. I like the point restriction. I has increased the size of our bucks greatly on the property I hunt.

     Over the past few days I have been hunting and observing a lot deer and it got me thinking about your topic. I know that in Utah we manage for Mule deer not whitetail and it might not be the same. We use to have antler point restrictions here(3 point on one antler or better) and our DWR went away from it because of a study they did. They had studied one mule deer for I believe 7 or 8 years. That buck never became any bigger than a small 2x2 buck maybe 10" wide on it's best year. They would display this bucks antlers in their defense for many years after they canceled the restrictions at sportsman's shows and expo's.
     In the last few days of hunting I have observed at lease a 100 bucks and it has confirmed something that I have been seeing more and more. This is what I call the " Dedicated Hunter Syndrome".  In Utah we have a program that called The Dedicated Hunter program that allows you to hunt all 3 weapon type seasons, archery, muzzerloader and rifle.  You may only take 2 deer in 3 seasons. The DWR did this to give hunters more time in the field without killing as many deer out of the herds. People love it but I personally think that it has turned everyone into a trophy hunter with some side effects. Everybody has become a "inch counter" and will not shoot a buck unless it scores well. I now see a lot of big 2x2 and 3x2 bucks that are being passed up. These are not young bucks they are 3 to 5+ years old deer. Last night the only deer that seemed to get close enough to shoot (I have a antlerless tag) was a 27" wide deep forked 2x2 buck with 3" eye guards! I would age him at a 5 year old buck. I would say more than half the bucks I see on the winter range are mature 2x2 and 2x3 bucks with a few typical 4x4's around. If they are a 4x4 buck they are usually a younger 3 year old buck. Even on Utah's prized trophy units the Henry mountains and Pausaugunt have had to have management buck hunts because of the number of this type of buck.
     Now some food for thought. With our elk here most units are "spike" only units and to hunt the big bulls it is a draw system and a long wait. Here in Utah we kill a lot of cows and a few bulls. That is why we kill so many Boone and Crockett bulls each year. Some of these units are 50 bulls to a 100 elk ratios. I know I have had to pass on the 350" class bull of a life time and have to shoot the cow with the bull instead! I'm not saying I know the answers here but antler restrictions can lead to frustrations and side effects whether they are self imposed or by the the state. Being a tradition archer with limited time to hunt I don't think they are the way to go. Unfortunately IMO if we want more mature deer in our herds we have to limit the amount of hunters which can be frustrating also.

Dennis, no offense taken.  Both of these young men just started hunting, they didn't start at 12 or 6 like some people seem to.  They were excited to go at it again but after sitting in rain and then cold for two weeks and watching bucks that don't meet the AR's but couldn't shoot their rush was gone.  As much as we older hunters like to say there's so much more to hunting than killing a deer a young mind hears it but doesn't buy it, that takes years of experience.  More than half of the men I know that hunted their whole lives but are now plus 60 yrs. old have already quit because they can't count points as deer go running by.  There needs to be some kind of median for the seniors and younger hunters, that is if they would like to keep hunter numbers up.  Not saying I have the answers but was just giving my answer to the original question.

So here's my $.02 on antler restrictions...I hunt mostly in northern PA. Neither a hotbed for deer numbers or antler genetics. Almost 20 years into AR's and I am a huge fan. Yes it can be frustrating trying to count points and ending up without a buck after seeing easy shots on bucks we used to be able to harvest.....going into Ar's I heard my dad and the older guys complaining that we'll never see a legal buck because all the deer in PA were spikes and y's....and the first year our club got skunked on bucks. But after the first year we started getting a couple bucks every year that were once a decade bucks under the old rules. I'm not talking about monsters, just average 6 and 8 pointers. On average we get just as many bucks as before AR but they are now 2.5 year old and older deer as opposed to all 1.5 year old deer. The older guys always said all those PA bucks would always be spikes and y's no matter their age and that simple isn't true. In almost all cases, a spike or y whitetail is a 1.5 year old buck and in PA we were killing about 90% of our male deer every year, do the math...1 out of 10 1.5 year old bucks were surviving the hunting seasons. I know we all want to get a buck, and young hunters are easily distracted by other things but we have to be aware of the reality of the situation. Killing 90% of all male deer every year isn't healthy for the deer herd. I used to see lots of fawns that were born in late summer because there simply weren't enough bucks to breed all the does in the traditional rut. A 3 month rut isn't healthy for the bucks doing the breeding and it certainly isn't good to have 3 month old fawns entering winter. I don't see nearly as many of those late born fawns now. In the old days for every 10 deer i saw, 9 were does and 1 was a spike or y....since AR's for every ten deer maybe 5 are does, 4 are sub-legal  bucks and 1 is a shooter.....I like that dynamic better. I'm am no trophy hunter, if a buck is legal and presents a shot, I'm taking it. I shoot just as many bucks as before AR's, but now they are just a bit older.

I haven't hunted all over, my feelings are based on my experience in PA. If people want to quit hunting because they can't shoot a spike or because they didn't get a buck for a couple years, my feeling is that the point is being missed. And frankly, my experience is that the people who complain the most about not getting deer are the ones who don't put the required time in the woods scouting and hunting. I know I killed a lot more deer before I had kids and a real job because i was scouting all summer and hunting a few days a week from October through January.....most of the people I know that complain hunt maybe 3-4 days a year and scout even less. Some years I'm in that category but I'm complaining i have no time instead of complaining there's no deer. Anyways, my novel is over.
Happy hunting.

Mr. Dudley is pretty spot on. 

As a MI hunter/Resident, a big problem I have with the APR/QDM push is their lack conceding any concessions in forcing APR on the populous, or do they have any interest in finding some middle ground in other forms of managing buck harvest with out managing Antler size at harvest.

Single buck Tag needs to be seriously considered by MIDNR first and foremost.  Revisiting weapons restrictions are another.   Timing and duration of the firearms season, both black powder and regular should also be considered. 

As hunters, we have pushed and continue to push the efficiencies and ranges of our weoponry in the modern day.  No part of what we do is immune from it, and if we continue to simplify and ease our mode of harvest, we will either hunt ourselves out of season, or game, all in the name of technology.

I fully support APR because people have a habit of not being able to self-regulate, and every comment I read so far said "I was skeptical until I saw the results " paraphrase quote..lol.  I can hunt Illinois or Indiana and get a crack at a 4+ year old buck in a few days, yet have only seen a few in MI in 30 years..and I hunt really good areas. And I'm speaking of traditional bow APR. It's a great idea to get doe numbers reasonable and wait on good bucks.

Oh and it would help reduce poaching where people just kill buck after buck on other people's tags (because little bucks are really easy to kill), pretty tough to do if there's a limit on size. I knew people that did this when I was young so I'm positive it's still happening. They'd kill 6-8 young bucks a season when the limit was 2, with the second having APR.  They'd never get to the second tag because they're using everyone else's tag in the family or friends who could buy one.

The bi-weekly CO reports for the month of November, this was every other report.  Most common violation after baiting violations.

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Passing a 1.5 to kill it at 2.5 makes no sense to me. Mandating that all must pass 1.5's so my chances are better at a 2.5 even less. And at the bottom is targeting the best of the 1.5 and 2.5's because they meet some arbitrary standard of "big buck" when both are still years from maturity.

Education - not legislation - especially the feel good kind.

1.5 year old bucks are the dumbest deer in the woods. Horny, little caution, active, and come to almost any call, scent, etc. I don't see why trying to protect them (as best as possible) is a problem. Sometimes a basic rule may weed out some nice young deer meeting minimums, yet overall really change the trajectory of a herd age class. Once a deer gets 2.5, they act entirely different.  It's like nobody complains about the Colorado 4 pt on a side minimum on elk. It just makes sense to allow the dumb spike elk to walk..I've called in the same young deer, and young elk repeatedly. I've never thought...man I wish I could've shot that immature animal...

Quote from: Overspined on December 16, 2018, 08:31:38 PM
1.5 year old bucks are the dumbest deer in the woods. Horny, little caution, active, and come to almost any call, scent, etc. I don't see why trying to protect them (as best as possible) is a problem. Sometimes a basic rule may weed out some nice young deer meeting minimums, yet overall really change the trajectory of a herd age class. Once a deer gets 2.5, they act entirely different.  It's like nobody complains about the Colorado 4 pt on a side minimum on elk. It just makes sense to allow the dumb spike elk to walk..I've called in the same young deer, and young elk repeatedly. I've never thought...man I wish I could've shot that immature animal...

Completely agree, 1.5 year old bucks are the most vulnerable deer in the woods, first fall away from mom, hormones raging for the first time. By the next fall they are a completely different animal if they can survive...I know in PA, the antler restriction was implemented to increase the amount of male deer in the herd not about trying to increase the antler size.

Quote from: Krex1010 on December 16, 2018, 10:20:29 PM
I know in PA, the antler restriction was implemented to increase the amount of male deer in the herd not about trying to increase the antler size.

Bingo. I've been waiting for someone to point this out. Restricting any age or size class of bucks (from being killed) has the net effect of leaving more bucks alive to accomplish the breeding, and for hunter satisfaction in years to come. Getting the breeding done efficiently is an important benefit of having a better buck-to-doe ratio. Restricting the kill on smaller/younger bucks really reduces the overall buck take, as the more mature bucks are 1) fewer in number and 2) more difficult to kill versus immature bucks.

There's always a thought that the objective in APRs is to grow big antlers. The truth is that...for some people...big antlers are a motivation for APRs, BUT the reality is generally bigger antlers are just an indication of more maturity in the buck population. The old statement applies: "If you want what you've always had; do what you've always done".

I think the antler point restrictions have worked well in increasing the overall buck-to-doe ratio. 

I have a little spot in PA.  I have trail cameras out all year long.  Over the course of the summer I get photos with groups of 3 and 4 bucks routinely now.  I used to NEVER see that!  I hunted in Delaware County, NY for a few years and saw spike bucks breeding does.  This year on my place in PA I saw a fork-horn buck dogging a doe when a six-point came out and ran the forky off.  Before the sixer could get that does first name an 8-point came barreling out of the ticket, gored the sixer in the butt and flipped him head-over-heals.  As the sixer was laying on his back, wondering what just happened the 8-point hearded the doe off, into my neighbor's place (damn!).  I passed up several shots at legal but not super bucks just because I didn't want my season to end!  That is what makes me a fan of APRs.

John Cholin

It basically is all for knot! Now that CWD is in the mix we have to admit the almighty  horn craze might have made our hunting obsolete! WE was our own worst enemy to get hunting obsolete. PETA didn't hold a candle to getting rid of hunting as much as hunters have. Deer farms, the obsession with bigger antlers, food plots, baiting etc. I honestly don't know what the answer is but I do know what we've been doing isn't working. Hunter numbers dropping, CWD on the rise, the efficiency of hunting equipment increasing making it available for anyone in  any season. Coyotes taking 40% of fawn crop and that's conservative. Hunting future is not bright!

CWD has been around forever.  It was not created by deer breeders.  Is it probable they concentrated it in certain areas?  Yes.  But just because it was not known forever, nor even close to understood until very recently, does not make trophy hunting or hunters to blame.

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GCook I'd love to see any data or research documents you can provide to back up your statements. 

The origin of CWD is unknown, and it may never be possible to definitively determine how or when CWD arose. It was first recognized as a syndrome in captive mule deer held in wildlife research facilities in Colorado in the late 1960s, but it was not identified as a TSE until the 1970s.
Chronic Wasting Disease FAQ – CWD-INFO.ORG

What I learned is that deer escaped and started the spread. I could go into more and more 2nd hand information I have but I will not. Gary

The information is out there but it's just like climate change.  You choose a side to be on and no one is going to change your mind.
But hunters blaming and attacking hunters is just doing what the antis want.

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All 11 deer found in SE MN this year with CWD were mature bucks. We've had APR's here for several years now.Coincidence?

Yes.  Until recently testing was not as widespread.   As more testing is done the more it will be found.  It was there before just not known and then exposed through testing.

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 Until recently testing was not as widespread. True

  As more testing is done the more it will be found.  True

Because it's spreading like a wild fire!

It was there before just not known and then exposed through testing.

False unless you have data or evidence to back up that statement.

I've hunted and bow hunted  probably longer than most reading this post. I've never heard of anyone before saying they witnessed emancipated deer walking around. EHD yes but those examples of being found dead close to water doesn't translate to CWD. Even that wasn't common years ago.

By the way the climate change thing is irrelevant. I'm highly skeptical of climate change for the record myself. There is tons' of research out there from highly intelligent scientist saying it's bogus. They confirm the temps in recent years just support how consistent the earth is in temps.  I was taught in history that the Appalachian's  mountains were formed from glaciers. That the Sahara desert use to  be a lake. Climate changes. BUT the degrees most folks talk about now prove that it's VERY staple now.
We are way off topic now since your brought up climate change but I still say the horn craze and the commercialization of hunting  was one of the final straws to diminish hunting to being obsolete in the very near future. For LOTS of reasons but they all revolve around having to  "killing" a BIG buck.  We are guilty ourselves of doing what the PETA movement could not do.

You have no evidence more to uport it was never there before than I do that it's  always been there.  It's the same with climate change.  Modern records are too short of a period to know.

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 :deadhorse: :deadhorse: :banghead:
I thought this was about antler restrictions.

Antler Point Restrictions are loved by some and hated by others but to suggest that for the majority of people who approve of them they somehow about anything other than the potential to see (kill) bucks with bigger antlers is questionable.

Even QDMA, one of the biggest proponents of antler point restrictions, will clearly say that the science does not support the notion that buck to doe ratios are anywhere near as bad as what many people think they are (see link).

https://www.qdma.com/reality-doebuck-ratios/ (https://www.qdma.com/reality-doebuck-ratios/)

As to herd health, according to Russ Mason, the chief of the MI DNR Wildlife Division, there is simply no science that suggests that a deer herd managed under antler point restrictions is any "healthier" than a herd managed without them.

As to how antler point restrictions relate to CWD, the following is also pretty clear.

"CWD is more prevalent in male deer than females, so a strategy that emphasizes killing more bucks of all sizes is a reasonable step to slowing its spread.
The disease is also more common in older deer, so passing on young bucks so they can grow older and larger, as many hunters in Quality Deer Management Areas do, is a poor strategy for controlling CWD's spread." - Bryan Richards of the National Wildlife Health Center in Madison WI.

Quote from: Tooner on December 20, 2018, 10:08:22 AM
Antler Point Restrictions are loved by some and hated by others but to suggest that for the majority of people who approve of them they somehow about anything other than the potential to see (kill) bucks with bigger antlers is questionable.

Even QDMA, one of the biggest proponents of antler point restrictions, will clearly say that the science does not support the notion that buck to doe ratios are anywhere near as bad as what many people think they are (see link).

https://www.qdma.com/reality-doebuck-ratios/ (https://www.qdma.com/reality-doebuck-ratios/)

As to herd health, according to Russ Mason, the chief of the MI DNR Wildlife Division, there is simply no science that suggests that a deer herd managed under antler point restrictions is any "healthier" than a herd managed without them.

As to how antler point restrictions relate to CWD, the following is also pretty clear.

"CWD is more prevalent in male deer than females, so a strategy that emphasizes killing more bucks of all sizes is a reasonable step to slowing its spread.
The disease is also more common in older deer, so passing on young bucks so they can grow older and larger, as many hunters in Quality Deer Management Areas do, is a poor strategy for controlling CWD's spread." - Bryan Richards of the National Wildlife Health Center in Madison WI.

Nicely summarized. 

CWD has everything to do with  antler restriction

As a college student with little time to hunt and from an area where a buck rarely sees a second set of antlers because of those who do things less than legally I am strongly against aprs and am real glad that WV doesn't have them.

We have antler restrictions in some areas here in Missouri. I really could car less because I am a meat hunter and would rather shoot a young doe anyway.

So 2 things:

"mature bucks are more likely to have CWD" hmmm, doesn't seem as fatal as they suggest, so I'd say mature is like 3.5 years and up, what's the Wild life expectancies? Maybe 6-7 tops generally? I know there are outliers.

And I LOVE the youth hunt, it's proven the younger you get them hunting the more locked in their interest. Video games is the real enemy to future hunters. My boy is 10 and has shot about 6 deer so far, one forkie and the rest does.  Forkie was first deer at 7 yrs old. Don't worry your big bucks will make it. Plus after that he knows what a big buck looks like and has zero interest in killing lil ones, it was his idea to let LOTS of little bucks go. I believe it's because we see big ones on occasion so it's a good stretch goal to go for a big one. And when that doesn't pan out he shoots a doe. In the meantime we enjoy lots of encounters. At the end of the day kids want action, which includes animal encounters, some success, and learning how to be a sportsman and learn self control and enjoy the challenge. These all are aided by APR's.

Meat hunters, I'm trying to wrap my head around traditional bow hunter meat hunters. If you want to actually kill animals for meat I can think of a lot of other more effective ways than by using traditional equipment. I would think by definition a traditional bowhunter would not be opposed to limitations because by equipment alone you are self limiting. I'm getting the feeling like this is about more than APR for archery seasons, and in this case traditional archery.

Quote from: Overspined on December 25, 2018, 07:05:06 PM
Meat hunters, I'm trying to wrap my head around traditional bow hunter meat hunters. If you want to actually kill animals for meat I can think of a lot of other more effective ways than by using traditional equipment. I would think by definition a traditional bowhunter would not be opposed to limitations because by equipment alone you are self limiting. I'm getting the feeling like this is about more than APR for archery seasons, and in this case traditional archery.

I am done with my opinions about APRs but I highly disagree with your statement about being at a disadvantage because of my equipment. My bows are very much capable to kill a lot of deer year in and year out. In fact I typically kill 3-5 deer a year with my trad bow. equipment has nothing to do with being a meat hunter I was a meat hunter when hunting with a wheel bow I'm still a meat hunter with my shotgun during our gun season equipment has zero effect on my killing abilties 

**Full disclosure**. I didn't read all 10 pages of arguments.

When hunting private lands I have started to limit myself to does and any buck bigger than the first one I shot, back in 2004.  I really enjoy everything.  From preparing for the hunt, the hunt itself, the killing, the processing, the cooking.  All of it.

Public land is a different story.  If it's a legal deer I'm gonna shoot it.  The challenge of the hunt is that more difficult especially since I live in a low deer density area of Illinois, I limit myself to the use of my longbow and my time is limited.

Would I be disappointed if a law stated my buck had to be a certain size?  Yeah, I would.  But I've also only shot 2 deer in the 15 years I've been bowhunting.  So one more card from the deck stacked against me wouldn't be a big deal.  I'd just trust that the state biologists are acting in the best interest of the hunters.  I'm more discouraged with how our past time is attacked and becoming more of an anomaly then anything else.  I don't like the feeling of having to justify why I hunt.  I don't like the feeling that someday it may not be an option for me.

-Jeremy :coffee:

I think what some are missing here is Michigan is allowing for hunters to shoot TWO bucks in a year, one of which is unrestricted on size. In the southern part of the state with first year bucks that can be a basket 8 point, that equals a two buck limit.  As long as the does are bred timely (and there is some concern that that may be stressed with the current buck rules and increases in buck harvest before the rut with crossbow legalization) then how many bucks harvested becomes a social matter. Those in favor for APR's want to see bucks rutting and chasing and a more balanced age structure in the buck population of the herd. They probably wouldn't even be proposing antler restrictions IF there was a one buck rule.  Our state has had everything from a one buck rule to a four buck rule.  Most guys don't want to restrict what you want to shoot, they want to restrict what you want to shoot if you want to shoot more than one buck.  I'd recommend a first compromise for Michigan to be the hunters choice, either one buck tag good for any size buck or two tags that both are restricted, both at 4 on one side or better (or 4 and 5 on one side respectively). Hunters get their choice and no more antler restriction areas.  No one telling you what is a trophy, you decide which license you want before season starts. 

In Michigan BY LAW all decisions regarding wildlife and the hunting of wildlife are supposed to be made with science in mind and be biologically sound. I follow APR for myself but have yet to see a single shred of evidence that says it is better for the herd. Is it better for hunters? I believe yes. Though that may not be what is best over all.

I do not get to tell or force people to use what I think is the correct tool for the season, so why should I be told what I can take with my choice of tool?

Your hunt, your choice.  No one else's.

Quote from: TwinsofPrey on December 26, 2018, 02:05:14 AM
In Michigan BY LAW all decisions regarding wildlife and the hunting of wildlife are supposed to be made with science in mind and be biologically sound. I follow APR for myself but have yet to see a single shred of evidence that says it is better for the herd. Is it better for hunters? I believe yes. Though that may not be what is best over all.

Bill, first I'd like to say welcome to Tradgang.   Second, the DNR biologists weigh in neutral on APRs. This may change as CWD becomes more of an issue and opinion may be that keeping older deer around increases the chance of spreading the disease.

There was a very good study done by Dr. Ben Peyton and Peter Bull back in the early 2000's (google will find it for anyone interested) about the perceptions of Michigan hunters on buck harvest rules. The study was done to help game managers make decisions about buck harvest rules because of the SOCIAL aspect of this issue (management of the herd is essentially done through managing does).  The crux of the study was that the MAJORITY of Michigan hunters wanted to see a better age structure in the buck population of the herd, however the disagreement was in how to accomplish that.  Some hunters wanted a one buck rule. Others wanted an 'earn-a-buck' rule (although this does introduce science because it affects doe harvest). Antler restrictions was another option given.  The Natural Resource Commission has basically washed its hands of this and there is a process, by which hunters and landowners of a given county unit can be surveyed  to see if a two thirds majority (not just a simple 51%majority) to put in place antler restrictions.  There was discussion of this earlier in the thread where there was one county close to my home that was one of the first to get this passed. The approval rating of these rules in that area went from 64% (NRC allowed the rule to pass because it was within margin of error on survey of +\- 2%) to 78% in most recent years and the rule now encompasses a 12 county block in Northwestern Lower Michigan.  Also what was interesting in the survey was younger hunters retention in the sport was 4% higher in the APR area than out of the area. So my prediction is that you're going to continue to have this debate in MI until you either have a one buck rule or state wide APRs added one county at a time.

P.S. - one other comment about the above is that, while not said publicly, changing to a one buck rule in MI without significant increase in cost of the one buck license would have a significant impact on funding for the DNR.  Another reason why I think NRC has left the issue lay and leave it up to grass roots organizations pushing for the antler restrictions.  It doesn't change funding and they can point to the survey saying majority wants the change, so don't point any fingers at them.

I have not read every post but will add that here in Ark we've had APR's in place for a lot of years a statewide 3 point rule which was put in place with the objection of a lot of biologists , and a few state owned WMA's having a much larger one. The introduction of CWD in the northern counties has eliminated these APR's as it appears the state is trying to decimate the herd in those CWD counties  We do have a 2 buck limit here, I've always been against APR's for the same reasons that have been brought up here. Should we be forced to be trophy hunters or should we be allowed to kill the buck of our choice ? Also the biologists I've spoken with agree that APR's force you to target the deer you want to be doing the breeding and leaving the younger ones to breed. Our archery season includes scoped crossbows and opens in late Sept. then we have 2 weeks of muzzleloader in mid October followed by a 2 day youth gun season early November then the general gun opens for approx a month around the second weekend in Nov. then bow closes Feb 28. So there is a lot of killing done before much breeding takes place.

Dave, for those biologists against antler restrictions because it targeted the better genetic bucks, why would this matter if they're not trying to produce bigger bucks??? As long as the does are bred, and a spike can do that, the herd is sustained. Don't get me wrong, I'm against APRs unless it's limiting a two tag choice with restrictions versus a one buck unrestricted choice, but in that scenario, the HUNTERS get to choose what form of buck hunting satisfies their desire, but the two choices move the bar overall to a better buck age structure.

This has really turned into an interesting discussion.

I said I was tapped out but I want to add my version of what Ray said. He said it better I'm sure. I think we have made killing a deer in this state very easy buck or doe. I think APR's make it a little harder just to indiscriminately pull the trigger. I don't know biology. I'm a simple carpenter and I'm only capable of carpenter math. I just feel if we shoot all the spikes and forks sooner or later there will be no 6's , 8's or 10's and where I live and hunt there aren't many of those anyway. We've made it easier all across the board , I think we need to something to balance the scale in the other direction, or soon we will have no deer. My opinion has nothing to do with shooting a Bullwinkle, CWD, PTSD or Whirling disease. Ijust want to have some more regulations, so we don't slaughter them all off. Thanks Guys

If restrictions are aimed to improve antler size, age structure has to be addressed. If a state allows more than one buck per year...TOTAL, all other efforts are pointless.   

The restriction in my part of Texas is 13" inside spread on any branch antlered  buck. This rule has been in effect for better than a decade and hunter approval is in the 80%+ range. Having a much older age structure in the herd resulted in a much shorter rut as the older bucks "got the job done" better. The shorter rut puts most fawns on the ground in a much shorter window. Hence, less loss of fawns thru predation so the restrictions actually do impact herd health.
Hunters can shoot a second buck only if it is a spike.

It appears that the 13" spread restriction on any branched antlered buck is better than a APR. Around here in some places we see nothing but large 2 points (Mule Deer) that will be nothing more then a 2 point. These 2 points will be doing the breading in that area  with the results of large 2 point that can not be shot.

With the Elk restriction for archer, we can only shoot cows or spick bulls unless drawn for branched antler. I took a drive yesterday and saw 16 Bull Elk and these were all branched, the smallest one I saw was a nice 5 point. There were no cows or spicks. This is an area were I would always see several cows and spicks with a few Large Bulls all togerther. I am not sure this pratictis is good for the herd or the lining of the wildlife department pockets.

I still don't understand something. It seems that some believe this concept leaves more of the younger bucks to do the breeding and that this is a bad thing. However, if a deer has the proper genetics, does it really matter about the age? My final take is that hunting regs should be geared to the best overall heard balance, meaning different areas of a state might need different rules. Admittedly, I know nothing about the science involved, but it still seems to make sense to me.

Quote from: Sam McMichael on December 27, 2018, 11:49:18 AM
I still don't understand something. It seems that some believe this concept leaves more of the younger bucks to do the breeding and that this is a bad thing. However, if a deer has the proper genetics, does it really matter about the age? My final take is that hunting regs should be geared to the best overall heard balance, meaning different areas of a state might need different rules. Admittedly, I know nothing about the science involved, but it still seems to make sense to me.

APR's allow for a greater number of older bucks as well as just a greater number of male deer in general to be present and available for breeding. If spikes and y's (which in most cases are 1.5 year old deer and heading into their first fall without mom around) are protected, then the following fall they will still be around to breed does. Once a buck hits 2.5 years old almost all are legal bucks in most places with APR's. A 2.5 year old has a year of experience under his belt and is much better suited to surviving a hunting season compared to a 1.5 year old. My hunting experience with APR's is exclusively in PA where we have only been allowed one buck per year forever and still had decimated the male deer in the herd before APR's. It was either APR's or not guaranteeing a buck tag with every license. APR's are the better choice in that decision.

Quote from: Overspined on December 25, 2018, 06:55:05 PM
So 2 things:

"mature bucks are more likely to have CWD" hmmm, doesn't seem as fatal as they suggest, so I'd say mature is like 3.5 years and up, what's the Wild life expectancies? Maybe 6-7 tops generally?.

I'm not sure what relevance this has to the risk of CWD and it's transmission.

Adults are more likely to have AIDS than children, but that doesn't make it any less fatal...or transmittable.   

Just because a deer might not actually die of CWD until it is mature (or from something other than CWD), it can be transmitted any time after infection.  So, in the years between infection and death, a deer can infect an untold number of other deer...and still get hit by a car or a bullet or an arrow before dying from CWD.

Pancreatic cancer is always fatal.  That doesn't mean a person who has it can't die of something else before they die of pancreatic cancer.  Fortunately it's not infectious...CWD is.

Quote from: Sam McMichael on December 27, 2018, 11:49:18 AM
I still don't understand something. It seems that some believe this concept leaves more of the younger bucks to do the breeding and that this is a bad thing. However, if a deer has the proper genetics, does it really matter about the age? My final take is that hunting regs should be geared to the best overall heard balance, meaning different areas of a state might need different rules. Admittedly, I know nothing about the science involved, but it still seems to make sense to me.

It really only becomes a problem if a significant number of available does go un-bred.  That is rarely, if ever a problem.  As long as there are enough bucks of any age to breed the majority of the available does, the age of the breeders is irrelevant to anyone but hunters.  The deer don't care, nor do they suffer any ill effects from being bread by younger bucks.

Not a fan of APR!  I live in wi. and yes i am a meat hunter, and it wouldnt bother me a bit to shoot a nice doe every year for the rest of my life, and never shoot a buck, but if i am not seeing does and a small buck comes, i will shoot it, thats what i bought a tag for, but dont restrict me to size, that should be up to me. Biggest gripe here is too many seasons!