This is not to start any debate. I don't care what anyone does it just seems a once great sport is being eroded.
Years ago hunters were America's great conservationists. We hunted but at the same time the challenges we placed upon ourselves made things take longer. We'd never deplete areas of game either. Some prob still don't but it seems we're going the wrong way.
The get a deer this year mentality causes guys to do things more what they envision as guaranteed. They buy carbon suits, hecs suits, bait, use cameras w time stamps. You never hear of many using binoculars to long range glass.
Than there's the preseason rituals of sharpening heads, making arrows, etc.
Even the hunt outcome itself is becoming questionable. Too many place value on themselves as a hunter with what they harvest that particular year. You hear guys make excuses for a buck not being large enough. Who actually cares?
Years ago we'd take a doe and show it off.
Paul Schafer did an interview one time. I don't remember where I read it but he was fortunate enough to take a record book I think it was sheep. When told it was record book material his response was "good for him". That's the mentality so lacking now.
I've had some issues. My dominant eye was sewed shut, balance was off, had to learn to walk and talk again last year. One side is numb and my face has no sensation where I anchor so it makes things tough but I'm just glad I can be involved in the greatest sport or should I say life style around.
Many can't believe I won't use a crossbow w so many limitations. There's no way to explain to some why not.
Getting game isn't shopping. Besides game harvested the "right" way for me because it is all personal taste better.
This is no knock or disrespect to anyone who does things different. Fairly certain there's more people who think this way on here. I know things change and they call it progress, I just miss the old days when the majority instead of the minority had a different way of looking at the sport and the game God gave us.
A doe taken a couple days ago and one I am proud of.
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You should be proud of that deer-just getting out with bow in hand and having a good hunt is reward in itself. Buck or doe taken cleanly and ethically is why and how I hunt. I won't starve without a deer but when I bring one home I am proud of my accomplishment. You have the right ideals and thanks for the reminder of how we should be out there.
Congratulations on your fine doe.
Congrats...
:thumbsup:
Well done and well spoken Bowguy.
I see bowhunting (including traditional bowhunting) as inevitably affected and changed by the same forces which change almost everything in our lives. There's no sense in me listing everything I can think of, but it's enough to know just about EVERY thing we do today is done far differently than it was 50 years ago. Our society has become one of generally doing things faster, easier, with less calories, with more brain cells...and along the way using most any advantage we can glean. Just take any basic endeavor and compare today versus 1970. Nothing we do is immune from progress...whether we agree and like that progress or not.
In many respects traditional bowhunting flies in the face of the modern hunting mentality. But even we...as an overall subset of bowhunters...are slowly embracing the changes which make what we do a little easier. We tend to shoot weapons somewhat consistent with the past, but then we climb into tig-welded aluminum stands, or maybe we screw carefully machined broadheads into carbon shafts. We share hunting info and techniques instantly across the internet, whereas most of it was learned via hard effort and mistakes in the past. Though we love wood and graceful arcs, how many of us carry a gps or smartphone and use it while afield? Game cameras anyone?
My simple contention is we are traditional bowhunters (by claim) but we don't live on a proverbial island away from the tide of progress and development. We've embraced some of it, while rejecting parts of it. I think if we took a sampling of 500 traditional bowhunters we'd see plenty of evidence they avail themselves of gear and techniques which aren't consistent with how things were done 50 years ago. The accepted definition of 'traditional' is always a moving target, and one that I've yet to see universally accepted.
Hunt honorably and hunt hard. Beyond that, hunt to please yourself....and nobody else.
I agree boys but somewhere in the back of my mind I see the cave men talking about how the younger generation don't even make their own clothes from the hides of animals they killed....
Tim B
Nice doe, kudos. But true bowhunting will never die as long as we are around to pass ethics and tradition to others. Why I donate my time at least twice a year to hunter education and/or youth shoots.
That's very true. We gotta pass it down. Myself I teach hunter ed, do Jakes days, open houses for state, teach archery to kids and what might be in my opinion the most important, mentor. I do the mentoring through the NWTF as well as on my own., we can really touch more kids spending time w them and showing them things of the craft. Myself I even carry two Buck Woodsmans. It's a favorite knife and when a kid is successful on a deer hunt we clean the deer, than the knife and I give it to them. It's a cool momento for the child.
Society as a whole is changing....don't think anyone would argue that.
Many ...maybe most..people have tech driven lives....at least in some way.
The tech of today gives immediate results...we're used to it.
...when is the last time a kid actually went to a library to find an answer to a question?
As a whole, we're also used to "needing" the latest/greatest gadget to get the best results.
....why would hunting be any different right?
Fast food, online instant payments, online loans, shop online...the list goes on.
TV shows and online vids showing hunters "how it's done"...with the latest/greatest gear, super ultra mag this and that..etc
To me it is a no brainer of WHY hunters are changing....everyone is looking for an edge.
I myself started out hunting with the mindset of wanting all the best stuff...fastest wheel bow, scent blockers, awesome scopes on rifles,...my list went on and on too.
Later on..for reasons I don't truly understand..my mindset with hunting changed.
Just decided to go simple and humble and try to connect with nature a bit rather than trying to turn myself into the Predator from the movies...lol
I do my best to teach my kids and whoever wants to listen to me about how simple and humble hunting is actually more rewarding.
Be proud of what you accomplished...not of what you bought.
I'm not so sure there's anything really wrong with using every gadget you can afford to go hunting.
....I just feel sorta sorry for those who will never experience how fun and rewarding it can be to not buy into the hype.
In the end, it's a personal choice...and kind of a deep rooted one.
..Nice doe btw. I'd be proud of it.
I was born into archery. Dad owned an archery shop back in the late 50's thru 1969 and after getting into my early teens I had the good fortune to work in the shop and learn how to fletch arrows and make bow strings and work on traditional archery equipment. Because dad shot for Bear and was on his advisory staff for a period of time it was nothing to answer the shop phone and have Mr Bear (as what we called him) on the other end asking for dad. I watch the turn that archery has taken. Now fast forward to ten years ago when I found my first stone point artifact. I looked at that thing and said I can do that, I can make that and hunt with it. As you older folks know getting your mind and hands working together at the same time ain't always easy, lol. But I learned how to knap a stone point well enough to hunt with. I killed a doe with a stone point and a long bow that year and it was a hunt I will never forget. I wrote a story about that hunt calling it "A stick and a Stone". I later learned how to make self bows. I now hunt on the ground with primitive equipment hoping to do another first and that would be taking a deer with equipment that I made. And when I do I am sure another story will be written and probably will be only enjoyed by myself,lol. Yes, archery has taken a turn. For some in one direction and for others in a different direction. It is all a matter of "your" choice.
I think about stuff like this myself. I'm only 48 years old,but it does seems like things are changing faster than they used to. Hunting season was my grandma and grandpas place,and sometimes public land. I had my blue jeans on and maybe a camo shirt,some walls coveralls. It was just the excitement to go sit in the woods with my bow.
It does seem like the ramp up now is about all the neat new gadgets,but some people back when may have considered a camo shirt to be new age?
I think we tend to over-romanticize the good ole days. Most people have always used the best equipment available to them which they could afford to purchase. The old timers did not use much of the stuff we use today because it was not available, not because they thought it unethical or that it gave them too much of an advantage. Each of us needs to decide how much challenge we want for ourselves and select our equipment/accessories accordingly.
Very good point.
I agree on the "gotta get one mentality" that seems to run rampant now days. I have not killed a ton of animals but the ones I did harvest I like to think I did it the "right way". I admire you getting out there with your issues and getting it done. May you have many more hunts in the future. :notworthy: :thumbsup:
Well-said to the OP and many of the replies.
My son, who shoots and enjoys trad, (but still hunts with modern gear) can't for the life of him fathom why I put down my compound and went to hunting with bows that were designed when I was a kid, effectively cutting my effective range and arrow speed in half, and widening my target circle by shooting instinctively without sights. From his standpoint it makes no sense.
I got very turned off by the techno-wars that make this season's hero obsolete for next season, which my son has himself witnessed at the lightspeed at which his new, outrageously expensive equipment is eclipsed.
My newest hunting bow is over 40 years old and it shoots as well as the day it left the Grayling factory (can't necessarily say the same for me :laughing:). I use my own handmade woodies for the same reason; they work. And if I can't bring home the bacon with what I have, I need to work on improving ME, and not expecting newer and better gear to make up for my own shortcomings.
QuoteOur society has become one of generally doing things faster, easier, with less calories, with more brain cells...
The "instant gratification" mentality. Some find it hard to accept that you can't become an expert on bow hunting just reading about it. It requires actual experience. Time. Devotion. Sacrifice even. Think you have it perfected? Try hunting somewhere else. I've seen a few miles difference make a big difference in behavior, and I'm an average hunter at best.
As others have said, each of us has to decide what we want out of the experience. The fact that we've chosen the traditional route (in the big picture sense) says that we are more interested in the process and method of the hunt than purely in the outcome; otherwise we'd be compound shooters or just using the latest "Tactical" sniper rifle. Within that traditional framework, we decide where we fit and exactly what we want out of the experience. This influences our equipment choices, hunting style, scouting method, and a host of other choices. What I think we have in common and different from many today is a recognition that easier isn't always better, and that how we get there (or attempt to) is more important than end results (measured by game killed or trophy status).
Fellas
Been a minute since I posted. But this has kinda got me thinking. I know this is tradgang (traditional). And I sure don't have the experience slash age (43) that alot of the members here have. But I don't believe losing bowhunting is or should be our concern. I am not driven by politics, faceplace, Twitter space, sattalite TV or any of the other crap that is running most everyones lives. What we are losing is hunting in general. Woodsman ship, the simplicity of learning on our own. Figuring it out from what we remember an elder once said. Or something we saw, but didn't seem important then. But makes alot of sense now. The older gentleman at the diner drinking coffee, by himself. So full of the information that everyone thinks they are getting from all the social media. But no one bothers to ask? No one takes the time to sit and just listen. Would take to long. Can't just push a button and skip to what you wanna hear, or turn the channel to what we wanna see.
We are losing way more than bowhunting these days. Hunting in general. Weapons are just away to divide us as a whole. Modern , traditional, primitive, recurve, self, longbow, compound, crossbow. I could keep going. All words that divide us in general. And those are the titles we give ourselves. It's no wonder we are(losing bowhunting).
Wonder if I took the time to sit down, show that old man at the diner the respect he has undoubtedly earned. The reason he sits humbly by himself. What his answer would be. I think he would be of the opinion we are losing the outdoors all together. Hunting, trapping, fishing. The thing that brings us all together. Being in the outdoors. Dividing it is and will be the reason we lose it.
Are we losing bowhunting? We may have already lost it.
Sorry for hijacking. Fellas, I was just thinking.
Dennis
Dennis, I think you nailed it. Your post brought me back to the MTB shoot held up in Grayling last June. We were sitting around the camp fire Friday night and a long time family friend showed up and at the age of 83, set his one man tent up next to our trailer. Aaron sat next to me and we started to talk about the old times, 60's archery, my dads archery shop and some of the "olde" timers that we both knew. There was another younger friend sitting with us just listening to our talk. He said to my friend, I need to interview you for an article in the MTB magazine. Aaron laughed and said, anytime. Well the interview never took place and we buried Aaron two weeks ago. He went to bed and didn't wake up. A good long time family friend is gone as is his wealth of knowledge. My friend could speak 7 languages.
Quote from: JohnV on October 24, 2018, 11:26:55 AM
I think we tend to over-romanticize the good ole days. Most people have always used the best equipment available to them which they could afford to purchase. The old timers did not use much of the stuff we use today because it was not available, not because they thought it unethical or that it gave them too much of an advantage. Each of us needs to decide how much challenge we want for ourselves and select our equipment/accessories accordingly.
Truth.
I haven't posted in ages, but I want to chime in on this one.
Also, back in the "good ol' days" there was no internet/facespace/tradgang powwow and not nearly as many hunting shows...so, your sample size back in the day was extremely limited compared to what it is today. The powwow was most likely limited to just folks you knew personally...friends/coworkers/etc. Typically, one's hunting buddies share the same values (at least in hunting) or you probably wouldn't hunt or associate with them.
Technology has certainly changed and has made hunting much more accessible. This is crucial to understand because not everyone that hunts today grew up hunting and may not fully understand or share the core values of conservation and what folks generally think "hunting is all about." I believe a vast majority of us hunters out there "get it," and those are the ones who bear the responsibility of passing along the values that will keep out sport and tradition alive for generations.
I don't have nearly as much time or experience as a lot of folks on this page, but I grew up hunting, enjoying the outdoors, scouting, fishing, hiking, camping, etc. I have three little boys that I can't wait to teach everything I know. One is just old enough to start getting into shooting. He's 6 and he has his own St. Joe's River bow that he calls River Laser, and he also just started Cub Scouts. Teaching one of my boys will hopefully replace me...anything more than that will spread our values even further.
You can't be afraid of the younger generation out there...they might not always know how to approach the gentleman sitting at the diner drinking coffee. Millenials love information...even if it's not through Instagram. You'll be surprised.
One last thought on technology in the hunting world. If there were no advances in technology as it pertains to hunting, there wouldn't be nearly as many hunters nor would there be corporations with money to keep the sport alive. It all comes down to constituents and $$$. Be glad it's there, but also pass along our traditions and values. It's all required if we want to keep our sport alive in this rapidly changing world.
I think that's enough nonsense from me for a while.
Take it easy.
Quote from: Kevin Dill on October 24, 2018, 06:22:31 AM
Well done and well spoken Bowguy.
I see bowhunting (including traditional bowhunting) as inevitably affected and changed by the same forces which change almost everything in our lives. There's no sense in me listing everything I can think of, but it's enough to know just about EVERY thing we do today is done far differently than it was 50 years ago. Our society has become one of generally doing things faster, easier, with less calories, with more brain cells...and along the way using most any advantage we can glean. Just take any basic endeavor and compare today versus 1970. Nothing we do is immune from progress...whether we agree and like that progress or not.
In many respects traditional bowhunting flies in the face of the modern hunting mentality. But even we...as an overall subset of bowhunters...are slowly embracing the changes which make what we do a little easier. We tend to shoot weapons somewhat consistent with the past, but then we climb into tig-welded aluminum stands, or maybe we screw carefully machined broadheads into carbon shafts. We share hunting info and techniques instantly across the internet, whereas most of it was learned via hard effort and mistakes in the past. Though we love wood and graceful arcs, how many of us carry a gps or smartphone and use it while afield? Game cameras anyone?
My simple contention is we are traditional bowhunters (by claim) but we don't live on a proverbial island away from the tide of progress and development. We've embraced some of it, while rejecting parts of it. I think if we took a sampling of 500 traditional bowhunters we'd see plenty of evidence they avail themselves of gear and techniques which aren't consistent with how things were done 50 years ago. The accepted definition of 'traditional' is always a moving target, and one that I've yet to see universally accepted.
Hunt honorably and hunt hard. Beyond that, hunt to please yourself....and nobody else.
Well Said :clapper:
The point is raised that if hunters 50 years ago had the modern technology we have now they would have used it then. Of course they would have! Animals, which include humans, don't evolve very much in 50 years. People have always been motivated to do the minimum amount of work necessary to get something, and for the most part, that has worked out well for us as a species. So well, in fact, that we now run the real risk of killing ourselves through the side effects of over-population. So we now have to ask ourselves a question which would have been unthinkable 50 or 100 or 1,000 years ago: have we become victims of our own success? Would it be better to work a little harder for things, have more personal interaction with our fellow human beings, rely less on technology and more on our own resources? Peoples' answers may differ, but they are questions worth asking.
A few things are at play here...the instant gratification of the 20 to 40 year old crowd is one. Working to learn a traditional bow, passing up a buck out of range (but an easy shot for a crossbow), these things require time and self sacrifice that this group is not interested in. Certainly there are a few exceptions, but in general, why would someone with the ultimate smart phone controlling their life not gravitate towards the highest level technology in other parts of their life?
Second, archery history. Like Jon Stewart, I was born into this. Instead of Cowboys and Indians, I grabbed my York green glass bow and played Fred Bear. Michigan's rich bowhunting history was driven into me at a young age. I cannot estimate the amount of hours I spent sitting in the dark mini-theater at "Bear Mountain" in Grayling, watching Mr Bear stalk the world. To the millenials today, Fred Bear is someone Ted Nugent sang about. Glenn St Charles? Never heard of him. I was in camp one night with Tom Jenkins, who I consider one of the great bowhunting historians. He was talking about different people in bowhunting, recounting their exploits in the early years. Suddenly he just shut up and went to bed. I talked to him the next morning over coffee..."Too much eye rolling in that room, those youngsters don't care about our history"......what a shame.
Finally...with technology like the internet and especially podcasts (I'm beginning to dislike podcasts) EVERYONE WANTS TO BE FAMOUS. I am sick of listening to some guy explain "how it should be done", and then learning they have been hunting with traditional gear for 8-10 years....maybe.
I suppose as long as one of us sits a stand with longbow in hand, it will never die. But it's changing. And not for the better.
QuoteI think that's enough nonsense from me for a while.
Not nonsense at all!
I think a lot of this just comes down to human nature. It has been a long time evolving and has been largely driven by intense curiosity and applied intelligence. It happened over thousands of years but today it happens at an ever accelerating pace just due to technology. Technology driven by the same forces that got us here. It sorta drives itself.
So bow hunting that is so important to us is just a small slice of the culture around us and the things that drive it. We aren't the only ones to sing this song of lament. It can be found everywhere in today's world.
We can't predict where all of society is going but we can direct our own lives and the lives our children and grandchildren on a daily basis. If they are listening to you, you are doing about all you can and doing it right to boot.
lotsa good thoughts here to ponder...
:archer2:
Jon, I was sorry to hear about Aaron. I first met him years ago when we got the MLA going, he was a good guy....an "old timer" that will be missed
Give me a medium-sized doe every time...no kidding. We all hunt for our own reasons. I love my time afield in the autumn woods...to me that time is a gift from the Almighty. I want the challenge of using a simple stick and string. I enjoy eating venison... antlers are great but don't count for much with me.
Everyone has their reasons and I truly believe we would all do the sport a favor if we didn't bother about anyone else'.
We are a diverse group from all over the country and traditional likely means different things to each of us. And why shouldn't it?...that's a good thing I think. If we all keep bowhunting in our own way then what's to lose?
Hunt hard and safe, hunt ethically, enjoy God's gift of the autumn woods and don't worry so much about how others define traditional bowhunting.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Well said Bowguy.
I don't think it's realistic to expect it not to change.
Most of us it takes a lot of time to get and stay good enough to ethically hunt.
When I was younger I spent too much time working and building a retirement to shoot enough to be good with "traditional" equipment. I could squeeze in a couple evenings with a sighted modern bow and maintain my consistency to hunt but knew I would get back to trad when life slowed down.
That said most younger people's lives are saturated with too many things to do. I see it with my scout parents who have 2 and 4 kids at different activities and running themselves ragged to keep up. The percentage of young shooters to older shooters is small at the shoots I've been to. Just the opposite of modern bow matches.
If young people get involved and do it a little differently then somehow we should be able to look past the differences and help them fit in and grow into the sport.
Yes the push for bigger antlers and quicker success can be challenging but face it, we compete in everything in life.
I can only hope I make a good clean shot on a good doe or two this season. But if a wallhanger buck walks by I won't be ashamed to try to put a good arrow in him.
The world is changing and none of us can stop or even slow it down. Our job is just to keep doing the right things and pass our knowledge and wisdom down to the following generations. How they absorb it, what they do with it, is beyond our control.
To the OP, congratulations on a good deer. Enjoy it and the time you have in the woods. Don't let what you can't control ruin these times.
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I had an experience that changed me forever. Years ago I drew a much convened Montana Moose permit after 18 years of putting in for it. I was committed to hunting with a bow, I was shooting a 70# Dale Dye recurve at the time. I had seen several big bulls but could not seal the deal , as they say. One time I took my 10 year old son with me and we were hunting a old clearcut that had grown up and was full of saplings, We got with 15 yards of a approximately 36" bull, I had a perfect shot but because I wanted a bigger one, I passed the shot. A decision I regret to this day!! I could have shot a nice bull with traditional equipment with my 10 year old son at my side and I passed because of ego and concern about what other people think!! I will NEVER make that mistake again!!!! I did shoot a bigger bull with a rifle but it never meant anything to me! So the moral is hunt for your self, enjoy yourself and never define your hunting experience by what other people think!!
Great post..great stories... thanks.
And congrats also :clapper:
Shouldn't we mention some of the other changes that have an effect?
For example, I used to have good places to hunt and I used to see a lot of deer. That's all changed. Now I mostly hunt for a place to hunt and haven't even drawn my bow in the presence of a deer in a couple of years.
I hunt with a bow because that's what I like to shoot and carry. I'm not trying to make things harder on myself. I sure wouldn't blame somebody in my position who chose to use equipment that increased the chances of putting some meat in the freezer.
Guys I think part of this is focus. That's why I mentioned the word lifestyle. Let's say a guy involved himself fully and had a blown shoulder, chose to use a wheel bow to still hunt. He'd still be a bowhunter.
I'm not referring to a man's choice in gear, it's about really being a hunter. I know things change but there's a dif in deer shooting and deer hunting. The fellows that use every bit of technology to guarantee or as close to guarantee a shot today imo aren't really living the lifestyle. They show up shoot a deer, take a pic to show off on a job site, that's it. I don't wish to get into any debates but if someone dropped bait say anywhere, put a stand on it, his camera telling him when to show up, he shoots a deer on it, that's be legally hunting in some places but it's not the same imo. I don't get why these techniques are so accepted w deer and so shunned w turkey, waterfowl. Isn't an animal an animal?
Let me ask another question and nothing here is absolute but guess where you think the odds favor? If they somehow outlawed the bait and camera use how many that know only that would convert? How many in a couple years would be "too busy" to hunt.
Nothing here is saying the people are second class citizens, they aren't. Are they fully vested though?? Idk.
If someone really learns the ways of the bow, takes time to learn shooting, learns their herd, learns the land, learns patterns, food sources and which are preferred in what order. Keeps a tab on rutting areas, escape areas, uses and understands good entry and exit strategy, is he more likely to stay w it and pass his knowledge down? I'd say so.
I'm gonna say something I found incredulous. Last week I hunted a N.Y. farm. These locals to me seem wherever they hunt to blow up. The deer disappear, they get spooky, they change patterns.
So when I hunted I was slightly annoyed they again were hunting a same farm. These are nice guys mind you. I was cordial and mentioned the wind. The fellow said that's one thing they don't worry about or understand, hunting the wind. (Bowhunting 101)
He was proud they learned cameras and bait and told me so. I felt I had misread the guys. Explained to him wind use and how even baiting back home this would have to be considered. He told me I better tell his brother as well cause he doesn't know either.
I showed him easily nowadays w scoutlook how to check the wind and scroll it fwd to see how it'll unfold during a sit. I mentioned if it went off I'd personally leave instead of blowing a spot.
Old school we used topo maps, the weather forecast and a compass to check while still home. Today it's easy and he's maybe using a gadget but it's giving the same results.
If a fellow used some technology but still lived the lifestyle I don't think anyone would question them. Guess it's all in the eye of the beholder and those who don't understand what I'm getting at perhaps never will.
Be a mentor and pass it down so it's not lost
Good story, lovely picture of a fall hunt gone well.
HH~
"The only thing constant is change"
Bowhunting has been changing ever since I started hunting deer with a bow in 1955. It has evolved from it's simple beginnings to a point of developing away from customs and "old" beliefs.
The majority of the "flock" have followed blindly down the "path of least resistance". It's human nature to take the "easy" way, people have a tendency to be lazy want to accomplish their goal quickly and easily.
Then there are those like the people on this forum that want to challenge themselves and do things "the hard way". They have a respect for the history of bowhunting and have been inspired by men like Pope and Young, Fred Bear and Howard Hill.
The crossbow is the latest threat to bowhunting. It's addition to the bow season was brought about by greed for the almighty dollar by manufactures and retailers. It appeals to the aforementioned human nature to take the easy path. Even so I believe there will always be people like us who believe in the history and tradition of bowhunting and will keep that spirit alive. We/you have a choice to choose the path that you will follow. No matter how the archery world changes in the future, as long as there are people like us who refuse to let the old ways die, we can inspire others to realize the joy of a simple stick and string :archer:
I don't think we are losing hunting... yet. Overall, fewer people are hunting, and more and more people condemn it as cruel and inhumane. It has been this way for some decades. Plus, changes in technology, land usage, and "hunters" looking for an easier path to bragging rights are disheartening. HOWEVER, there is still a hardcore cadre of sportsmen (both archers and riflemen) who do respect the game, the land, and have a sense of fairness, placing the challenge and sense of fair play ahead of the need to simply collect a trophy. As long as we hold to these values and pass them along to our young ones, we can save the essence of ethical hunting. True, we are a small niche in the overall scheme of things, but as traditional bowhunters, we are used to being the minority. Let us hold fast to our beliefs and share them with all who will listen.
I feel a little differently on a things. First I don't believe that lots of people are opposed to hunting, I just think more people are demanding greater respect to the animal and antis just have big audiences and loud voices due to social media. Next while I do agree we are looking for faster and more convenient methods, for a variety of reasons, I believe we have more accurate archers with trad or modern bows as ever before. I attribute that to the easy access we have to training materials via the web. If we can keep involvement high I actually feel like we are in good standing.
Quote from: bigbadjon on October 27, 2018, 01:08:08 PM
I feel a little differently on a things. First I don't believe that lots of people are opposed to hunting, I just think more people are demanding greater respect to the animal and antis just have big audiences and loud voices due to social media. Next while I do agree we are looking for faster and more convenient methods, for a variety of reasons, I believe we have more accurate archers with trad or modern bows as ever before. I attribute that to the easy access we have to training materials via the web. If we can keep involvement high I actually feel like we are in good standing.
Idk bout this. Hope you don't mind if I qualify what I'm thinking. I get your point but it's a double edged sword of sorts.
Years ago I remember Curtis Sliwa did an interview on the radio. Curtis was the guardian angel founder. He knows nothing about hunting but he vocalized a common perception back than. He said he wasn't fond of hunting, except the Bowhunters, at least they gave the animal a chance.
The point I say is a double edged sword is keeping involvement high. Yea we need numbers but are some helping or hurting us in the public eye?
If you mentioned bowhunting who would visualize a stick, string and wooden arrow?
Many think sport hunting means for sport and that all we want is the head. This isn't true. When I explain sport hunting ,at least to me, means keeping things sporting. Making things harder than it needs to be as well as explaining the predator/prey relationship and for the good, a small percentage need to be harvested. The health of them all means some must go, it's the way they reproduce, well you can see gears in their brain turn as they understand. If you talk about the work involved, the waiting, etc to a kids first harvest and that some are being taken either way by us or a slaughter team, they change their tune. What is the difference between a deer shooter and a slaughter team?? Really nothing, they employ similar techniques often, save a cast net and pin gun.
I do get what you're saying we do need numbers but I say the right numbers. That's why mentoring is so important. Also not saying I'm the only one right. Just more to think about
Good thoughts posted here. I won't pretend to know anything about the future or the sport as a whole. But I'll offer my experience for what it's worth.
Our rifle seasons here are set to end right as the rut kicks in and for most places, it's buck only. So we have to find bucks in the daylight when they're mostly nocturnal. That's not to say that it can't be done. But it's not easy. Success rates are less than 10%. I've heard that bowhunter success is somewhere around 2% (compound included).
So although I'd prefer to go exclusively with a traditional bow, the odds are so slim that I've felt no problem hunting with a rifle this year. As luck would have it, I filled my tag with a nice forkie. I've had so many shot opportunities at does and spikes these last few years that I can't even begin to count them. I'd love to take a doe. But it's just not legal here. That forkie, while nothing to brag about, is a trophy out here -- even with a rifle. Most hunters I know will shoot the first legal buck they find and will feel extremely lucky to have found one at all.
My biggest fear for the future of hunting in my family is that successes get to be too few and far between to hold the interest of younger hunters. Although I understand why our game laws are the way that they are, I also feel that traditional archers should have greater leeway in what they take. If it were up to me, does would be legal deer for traditional bowhunters while compound hunters and rifle hunters should be more restricted. But it isn't up to me. As it is, with a legal buck being something most hunters only see once every few years (let alone get a shot opportunity on), I feel no shame in picking up a rifle every so often.
In some ways, it's a similar trend with the copper ammo rules we have. I used to hunt with a 30-30. But when the lead ban hit, which was really meant to solve problems related to high-velocity cartridges that fragment, my 30-30 became obsolete. Yes, there is copper ammo for the 30-30 but the copper needs more speed than a 30-30 generates with accurate loads. So I was "forced" to buy a .308 to have an accurate rifle for deer hunting. I feel that it's a similar legislative change that "forces" hunters out here to use rifles over traditional gear. If I could take does, I'd be done hunting before labor day. But the laws are what they are. And if I want to have any success at all, I have to make some peace with the idea of rifle hunting every so often. I still plan to hunt the archery season with traditional gear. But I certainly don't hold it against anybody out here who wants to be able to put the odds a little more in their favor. Unless the regs change (unlikely) taking a compound for a 30-40 yard shot or a rifle for up to 200 yards is still within the bounds of ethics and fair chase as far as I'm concerned.
Congrats to the OP on a great deer. I could type out a long response but Ron L. said it the way I was thinking.
Quote from: Roger Norris on October 26, 2018, 06:56:06 AM
Finally...with technology like the internet and especially podcasts (I'm beginning to dislike podcasts) EVERYONE WANTS TO BE FAMOUS. I am sick of listening to some guy explain "how it should be done", and then learning they have been hunting with traditional gear for 8-10 years....maybe.
I get your point here Roger but a little something for you (and others) to consider. There are some of us doing podcasts not to become famous but in an effort to try and preserve some of our outdoor traditions, woodsmanship skills, and the mindset of a hunter/conservationist. Embracing technologies, like podcasts, are the best way to try to reach a younger generation and hopefully pass along some of the qualities in hunters that many of us hold very dear. Yes, we do want to entertain and engage with those of us that are already of the same mindset, attitude and opinion but hopefully we might also entice someone away from the "Smoked HIM!" mindset that Outdoor's Television has created. Not to mention that the podcast platform is a good platform to deliver a message without the negativity that we ourselves sometimes can't stop ourselves from engaging in on the tennis match that most social media conversations end up being.
I guess I am just saying keep in mind that there are some of us doing this for the right reasons. We spend our time preparing content, contacting guests, scheduling interviews, paying for hardware and software and more, all to create a product that anyone can access and consume for free. Then we put ourselves out there publicly for anyone to come along and provide negative, and public feedback if they don't care for a guest, topic or a point being made.
Just a little food for thought. Not trying to generate an argument or anything........like I said, I can understand why you might feel the way you do......just trying to offer some input from the other side.
Quote from: BowHunterGA on October 31, 2018, 08:57:11 PM
Quote from: Roger Norris on October 26, 2018, 06:56:06 AM
Finally...with technology like the internet and especially podcasts (I'm beginning to dislike podcasts) EVERYONE WANTS TO BE FAMOUS. I am sick of listening to some guy explain "how it should be done", and then learning they have been hunting with traditional gear for 8-10 years....maybe.
I get your point here Roger but a little something for you (and others) to consider. There are some of us doing podcasts not to become famous but in an effort to try and preserve some of our outdoor traditions, woodsmanship skills, and the mindset of a hunter/conservationist. Embracing technology, like podcasts, are the best way to try to reach a younger generation and hopefully pass along some of the qualities in hunters that many of us hold very dear. Yes, we do want to entertain and engage with those of us that are already of the same mindset, attitude and opinion but hopefully we might also entice someone away from the "Smoked HIM!" mindset that Outdoor's Television has created. Not to mention that the podcast platform is a good platform to deliver a message without the negativity that we ourselves sometimes can't stop ourselves from engaging in on the tennis match that most social media conversations end up being.
I guess I am just saying keep in mind that there are some of us doing this for the right reasons. We spend our time preparing content, contacting guests, scheduling interviews, paying for hardware and software and more, all to create a product that anyone can access and consume for free. Then we put ourselves out there publicly for anyone to come along and provide negative, and public feedback if they don't care for a guest, topic or a point being made.
Just a little food for thought. Not trying to generate an argument or anything........like I said, I can understand why you might feel the way you do......just trying to offer some input from the other side.
Good morning Steve. I think you are reacting to this part of my post:
Finally...with technology like the internet and especially podcasts (I'm beginning to dislike podcasts) EVERYONE WANTS TO BE FAMOUS. I am sick of listening to some guy explain "how it should be done", and then learning they have been hunting with traditional gear for 8-10 years....maybe.Fair enough. I apologize that I have not listened to your podcast, so know that I can't possibly be talking about you. And really, I picked on "podcasts" a little unfairly. I'm also considering the youtube videos, etc.
I won't say exactly what set me off,because the folks involved probably have their hearts in the right place, and they certainly have time invested in what they are doing.
But whether it is a written article, self published video, podcast, whatever...I am always a little puzzled by folks who have done something for a relatively short time who self proclaim to be "experts".
Good morning Roger, honestly I did not think you were talking about my podcast. In fact there are several I could name that I think your post could have been directed at and I do get it. Hey I understand basic marketing and if you want people to "buy in" to your product one way is to sound like you know what you are talking about. That is not what I started mine for and though I may give my opinion or discuss what has worked for me, the LAST thing I want people to consider me is an expert on anything. LOL
Still, I do think all of these platforms are a way to reach a new, younger audience so from the perspective of preserving traditional archery and bowhunting I support all of them but just know that there are a few out there that even I choose not to listen to for the same reasons that you mention. Thank you for the reply.
And what the heck are arrow canoes?
:bigsmyl:
Quote from: Roger Norris on November 01, 2018, 05:26:52 AM
Quote from: BowHunterGA on October 31, 2018, 08:57:11 PM
Quote from: Roger Norris on October 26, 2018, 06:56:06 AM
Finally...with technology like the internet and especially podcasts (I'm beginning to dislike podcasts) EVERYONE WANTS TO BE FAMOUS. I am sick of listening to some guy explain "how it should be done", and then learning they have been hunting with traditional gear for 8-10 years....maybe.
I get your point here Roger but a little something for you (and others) to consider. There are some of us doing podcasts not to become famous but in an effort to try and preserve some of our outdoor traditions, woodsmanship skills, and the mindset of a hunter/conservationist. Embracing technology, like podcasts, are the best way to try to reach a younger generation and hopefully pass along some of the qualities in hunters that many of us hold very dear. Yes, we do want to entertain and engage with those of us that are already of the same mindset, attitude and opinion but hopefully we might also entice someone away from the "Smoked HIM!" mindset that Outdoor's Television has created. Not to mention that the podcast platform is a good platform to deliver a message without the negativity that we ourselves sometimes can't stop ourselves from engaging in on the tennis match that most social media conversations end up being.
I guess I am just saying keep in mind that there are some of us doing this for the right reasons. We spend our time preparing content, contacting guests, scheduling interviews, paying for hardware and software and more, all to create a product that anyone can access and consume for free. Then we put ourselves out there publicly for anyone to come along and provide negative, and public feedback if they don't care for a guest, topic or a point being made.
Just a little food for thought. Not trying to generate an argument or anything........like I said, I can understand why you might feel the way you do......just trying to offer some input from the other side.
Good morning Steve. I think you are reacting to this part of my post:
Finally...with technology like the internet and especially podcasts (I'm beginning to dislike podcasts) EVERYONE WANTS TO BE FAMOUS. I am sick of listening to some guy explain "how it should be done", and then learning they have been hunting with traditional gear for 8-10 years....maybe.
Fair enough. I apologize that I have not listened to your podcast, so know that I can't possibly be talking about you. And really, I picked on "podcasts" a little unfairly. I'm also considering the youtube videos, etc.
I won't say exactly what set me off,because the folks involved probably have their hearts in the right place, and they certainly have time invested in what they are doing.
But whether it is a written article, self published video, podcast, whatever...I am always a little puzzled by folks who have done something for a relatively short time who self proclaim to be "experts".
Roger if I may, the reason people think they're experts is cause they don't know what they don't know. Think about that, makes perfect sense
Quote from: Roy from Pa on November 01, 2018, 07:24:06 AM
And what the heck are arrow canoes?
:bigsmyl:
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h227/rnorris/IMG_0655_zps5lzgnjk7.jpg) (http://s65.photobucket.com/user/rnorris/media/IMG_0655_zps5lzgnjk7.jpg.html)
:biglaugh:
:biglaugh:
Ya have a picture of the other side, Roger?
Quote from: Roy from Pa on November 01, 2018, 09:15:06 AM
:biglaugh:
Ya have a picture of the other side, Roger?
(http://i65.photobucket.com/albums/h227/rnorris/IMG_0650_zpshtxqf4ht.jpg) (http://s65.photobucket.com/user/rnorris/media/IMG_0650_zpshtxqf4ht.jpg.html)
:thumbsup:
Nice..
Well I've been at this red thing a while now. I started with a compound. And I never did give it up. It was my first passion. And it was a sure thing to put meat in the freezer. Honestly when I started with recurves and longbows it made me excited again. Like the early days. But when I would blow a shot I'd be so mad at myself. The kill was my sole focus. And I could never fully commit to the stickbow because of it. Well a few deerless years with every weapon from stickbow to crossbows, and even fun misses did a thing to me. It made me realize I'll live if I don't get a deer. And that just seeing them is a thrill. So this year for literally the first time ever I've committed fully to the longbow. And I've let a few deer that I'd have iced with my compound walk, because the shot didn't feel right. And the crazy part is it didn't bother me in the least. And for the first time ever I didn't feel handicapped by my bow choice. I'm having more fun than I have in years. And I could care less if I kill one. But I'm also pretty confident if something gives me the shot I'm after I'll do my part.
But I must say I don't think it's all lost. I've gotten many people including all four of my kids into trad. Not by trying to convert them. But because they see how much fun I'm having and want in. Stickbow are just a blast. And I think more folks are gonna catch on.
Got auto corrected lol. Trad thing. Not red lol
And gun misses. Not fun. Lord help me I gotta go to bed. Night all lol.
I've read every post on this thread. Lots of deep thinking here...you can tell we spend a lot of time between sightings, simply contemplating. I'm also sure many of us smile upwards and thank Him for the opportunity to enjoy His wonderful creation.
I've only been at this for 49 years. Started with curves in the 60's, went to compounds in 1975, and back (partially) to curves in 2010. I've also observed the sport and sportsmen and women from the wildlife manager/regulator's seat for about 3 of those decades.
I am extremely optimistic about the future of bowhunters and bowhunting. I've always been this way, but even more these days as the "zanies" have poisoned their own well with the general public, with their antics and ridiculous hunter hater positions.
I now this topic is mostly about the bowhunter's frame of mind and choices. A lot of focus here on equipment modifications and participants.
I do remember the time, about 30 years ago, when the bowhunter was seen by other hunters, the public, and wildlife management agencies as more avid, knowledgeable, and maybe more thoughtful hunters than most. Some complete stranger, non-hunters were actually "impressed" with bowhunters (obviously they didn't know ALL of us). That may or not have been a fair or accurate portrayal of us. There are certainly folks in the firearms crowd that are as much or more of all these things than the best among us.
I used to think that more hunters should make the kinds of equipment and technique choices as I made, in order to elevate their game, have more fun, and be as respectful of hunting and the hunted. I even saw a lot of that "hunt like me" in archery hunting regulations (draw weights, point weights, point widths, arrow cast, accessories, ...on and on. These were complicated regulations and in many cases, for most officers, very difficult to enforce.
However, for most of my career, at least, I was of a less is more mindset, especially regarding regulations. I put my fingerprints on many of those simplifications, at least here in Kentucky. I'm not even anti-crossbow any longer. I don't prefer to hunt with them, for now as long as my body holds out. But I don't mind those who do. I have no fear, here in the east, about game populations or seasons being impacted by crossbow take.
I love our (bowhunters') long seasons with time to wait for the weather, temperature, and winds we prefer. I love that the field isn't as crowded as in other seasons. I also like being able to disappear in the woods, even from my own reflections instead of glowing orange.
Bowhunter numbers are up nationwide, and not all the increase is by folks with crossbows being counted among vertical bow users. Even recurve/longbow user numbers are up. I believe we will see this trend for a long time.
As so many have said here, I'm fine with the ethical choices of others. They may not have to work as hard as I do to get and make a close, accurate shot. But, I know what gives me the greatest joy. I know there are some who have greater adventure than I do (those fellows who disappear in the moose bush of Alaska for example) but there are too many who have far less.
I've been tinkering for about two hours before church this morning with my bows and a DIY phone/video set up. The videos (if I get em) are moving pictures for me to enjoy. All part of the bowhunting experience for me.
I'm looking forward to replacing myself with at least four grandchildren in the field. All but one is 8 and under. They want a papaw who shows them how, rather just reminisce about it. Ha, they are going to get both I'm afraid.