Honest and sincere questions here, and a few points to ponder.
First one has bugged me literally for years. When there are so many real sources of information, why would anyone get their advice from someone who's barely if ever hunted and never killed anything with a bow? Seriously. I've seen it more times than I care to remember and it always just puzzles me.
Why would anyone think that tuning is "hardly critical" for hunting???? Besides affecting accuracy it also affects bow noise and penetration.
Even if you believe the above, why in the world are you hunting with traditional gear if it's your habit to half-a** it? We hear all sorts of stories about wanting to "up" the challenge is why lots of people went to traditional bows for hunting. We know that hunting with this gear is more difficult. Why in the world would you want to handicap yourself further? I've never met a hunter who said deer hunting with traditional gear had just gotten too easy, so they figured they would do stupid things like half-way tune their set-up to make it more of a challenge. To the contrary, there are countless debates about how to get BETTER penetration! Heavier heads, more FOC, heavier arrows, faster arrows...BETTER TUNING...
A perfect tune, or at least as close as you can reasonably get, DOES MATTER. IT MATTERS AT AT 20 YARDS AND UNDER. I remember being at the Lost Tribe club in Collierville, TN several years ago. They had an "aerial" novelty. Since space was limited, the targets weren't thrown very high and they had archery backstop netting behind the thrower in case of misses. I was shooting a 66# bow and heavy arrows...and I missed several times. Net stopped my arrows, no problem. Rod Jenkins was there. He was shooting around 40#. He didn't miss many, but when he did his arrow WENT THROUGH THE NETTING! Reckon why? Simple. Because Rod is anal about tuning, and very good at it. He was getting better penetration with a bow that was at least 20# lighter, AND ON A MOVING TARGET (i.e. a hunting type shot).
Another "excuse" is "well, you will be wearing extra clothing, shooting from an unfamiliar position, maybe an awkward position, yadda yadda yadda...". Here in Northeast MS we aren't even expecting a frost until mid November. Our bow season opened October first. I've been hunting in 80+ degrees. I ain't exactly been wrapped up in wool. That's what happens when you make blanket statements based on...well, I don't know what it was based on, but it wasn't actual experience or from actually talking to different hunters. Imagination? Even when we do hunt in the cold, there's this thing called "hunting ethics" that most bow hunters are proud to have. That means you practice in the clothes you hunt in. You practice from the position you hunt in. You practice "cold" shots. You pass on shots that require you to get contorted and awkward. Pretty simple.
Then you have the claim of "empirical evidence". What evidence? Read it on the internet so it must be true? It's true because some joker on the internet said so? Someone who isn't even a hunter and never has been? Hey, he said "empirical". That's got to count for something, right? Actually no. Pulling crap from your imagination doesn't make it fact, even if you label it "empirical".
Why in the world would anyone think that tuning is important for punching paper, but not for hunting? Targets don't bleed. Targets don't go for days before they die when you make a lousy shot, or get poor penetration because some idiot on the internet convinced you that you don't have to worry about tuning for hunting. Yeah, thanks internet.
I ask that the actual questions and points be addressed in replies. If you want to attack the messenger and ignore the message, my e-mail is chad@recurves.com. Knock yourself out.
I am located in a country with no actual bowhunting opportunities and very little permitted game shooting. That said I am also curtailed in my tackle selection as most archers here are competitive.
I had to rely on the forum to get my rigs in the ballpark. I have used all the recommended heads and tuning methods so that I can ready a "recipe" for an arrow that complements my bow and is accurate.
The journey was not easy and I had to re- evaluate my assumptions several times, in this I was helped by the old hands here ( not directly all the time but some people like Cyclic Rivers and big Jim Have been really helpful - shout out to Gary of DM custom and Mr Dan of toelke bows).
Now I am reasonably sure of what my rig needs to be and that I need help of more practice before I draw a bead on a live animal on safari. Also testing on carcasses has shown me the best performing broadheads I have in my repertoire.
The internet is an enabler, what it can't change is someone's gullibility or inability to rationally dissect facts.
QuoteThe internet is an enabler, what it can't change is someone's gullibility or inability to rationally dissect facts.
Outstanding! Short, simple, and straight to the point!
For me I want my arrows to fly right regardless of target or hunting. Bare shaft tuning is something I do although my form isn't perfect and I have to weigh the results and temper that with broadhead flight.
That said, for me, you can be the best expert out there and if your method of delivery is insulting or not done in a manner the least experienced can glean from then the message will be lost.
On the other hand if you are friendly and offer help often with most of your info being helpful you may be better received even when your information is less reliable.
However I would hope one could reserve comment should they know they lack sufficient knowledge and experience to give solid information.
But regardless we have the opportunity to take it in or let it go.
I let a lot go. Even from this site.
Sent from my SM-G892A using Tapatalk
Thanks GCook. I know that often people will prefer a pretty lie over an ugly truth, and that with many the WAY it's said can mean more than WHAT is said or even who said it. I don't understand it...to me that's like choosing poison that tastes good over medicine that is bitter. Makes no logical sense. Grown folks should know better.
For me, I know I'm blunt and that can be received the wrong way, especially on a computer screen. I just like to get to the point.
For information, I thought something as serious as hunting...killing animals...would be important enough to at the very least check out information sources before taking their word as the gospel truth...not just personally applying it, but running to defend it. I know you don't have to have a kill record like the Wensel brothers or Dr. Don Thomas or Denny Sturgis Jr. to be able to give accurate information or have your own experiences...but when there's zero experience and the information is presented as if it's based on years of experience? Shouldn't that raise a red flag, especially when it goes against logic and reason and those who do have experience? All that matters is it sounds good and appears helpful? That poison sure smells and tastes good...just ignore the fact that it's going to kill you or at least make you really sick? We need a "scratching my head in total confusion" emoji...
As everyone here knows, I'm sure, the traditional community is often criticized for wounding game. Many compound hunters feel that people ought not hunt with trad gear, and probably many rifle hunters feel that people shouldn't hunt with archery gear period, except for the rifle hunters who also like archery hunting, of course.
We allow, even encourage, hunting with primitive equipment, including arrows made from reeds with stone points, where there is too much variation from arrow to arrow to do much tuning.
I think the bottom line is, we know we hunt with equipment that is not the most efficient way to kill an animal, and we accept that. But within the limitations of our equipment, whether it is matched carbon arrows that can be tuned to perfection, or stone tipped bamboo arrows that can't, we have to do the best we can. Going out there with equipment that is capable of being tuned and broadheads that are capable of being sharpened and purposely not doing it is unethical.
QuoteGoing out there with equipment that is capable of being tuned and broadheads that are capable of being sharpened and purposely not doing it is unethical.
Exactly! And promoting, advising, saying it's ok or "good enough" to do that is unethical too. Why that is a point of contention is beyond my comprehension...
Let me try again !
I shoot Beman ICS bowhunters and axis and black eagle vintage. I have zwickey, wensels , stingers, ozcut and tigersharks.
The ozcut were brought by a friend are more of a compound bow type head. I will use them for crows and rats instead of field points as they are not likely to perform on game irrespective of continent and species.
Now some one can say that I should use a grizzly stick or nitro or fmj shaft as the bowhunters ain't good enough. Zwickey are not as great the one piece machined bishops or other cnc heads.
The bow poundage will be another bone of contention regardless of tuning. I bareshaft tuned after 2 yrs of archery and had several robinhoods.
Now I realise my release needs a lot of work to get the best of bareshaft tuning.
When facts are repeated enough times people will believe them even though experience will point otherwise.
I had a tough time believing a full length Beman ICS would fly well with 200 plus grains up front - I was told to use 125!
Let facts guide you and make allowance for different forms and releases.
GCook you're relatively new here based on your registration date, but since 2003 we haven't allowed much fake news.
If you see any fake news or such comments that you're letting go that you think her fake news or completely wrong statements please let us know. I'd like some examples of what your "Letting Go" . Statements like broadheads don't have to be sharp, nock points are useless, a shooting method is worthless and those who shoot that way are disciples, trashing the pioneers of our sport, etc etc....
Thanks... :campfire:
Acedoc, I understand. That's a bit different that what I'm talking about. Sometimes experiences are different. Someone might have excellent results with a particular arrow or broadhead, another might have bad results. That's just different experiences.
What I don't understand is someone with zero experience being considered and treated as if they are an expert in the field, especially when they are giving "advice" that is contrary to logic or actual experience. Not only that, if someone dare bring up those facts...that the person giving the bad advice actually has no experience, and the advice they are giving is awful, there are people who will attack you for it as if you are the bad guy. Need that "scratching my head in total confusion" emoji again...
I read GCook as there is a multitude of information on here. Some may work for you some may not. If it works for you, use it. If not let it go. It does not mean any of the information is incorrect per say.
Quote from: LBR on October 18, 2018, 03:44:32 PM
Acedoc, I understand. That's a bit different that what I'm talking about. Sometimes experiences are different. Someone might have excellent results with a particular arrow or broadhead, another might have bad results. That's just different experiences.
What I don't understand is someone with zero experience being considered and treated as if they are an expert in the field, especially when they are giving "advice" that is contrary to logic or actual experience. Not only that, if someone dare bring up those facts...that the person giving the bad advice actually has no experience, and the advice they are giving is awful, there are people who will attack you for it as if you are the bad guy. Need that "scratching my head in total confusion" emoji again...
:banghead:
Is close enough , as a doctor I go through this everyday.
If close is good enough for some people, I respect their choice.
Al Dean, you miss my point. I'm not trying to be the "trad police". Maybe this will make sense.
If you had a serious illness, would you go to a doctor who had ZERO experience treating that illness and ignore countless other doctors who had lots of experience treating it?
What if you didn't know that and that doctor spoke with you about it as if they had years and years of experience and knew exactly what they were doing...THEN you find out they had no experience?
Not only that, the doctor was just making up statistics with nothing to back them up, and you find that this doctor's remedy went against the advice of specialists in the field?
Would you keep going to that phony doctor because you think they sounded good?
Would you defend that phony doctor and go on the attack when someone tried to warn you that they were a phony?
I'm talking about a phony pretending to be an expert when it comes to bow hunting giving advice as if he's killed all sorts of game with a bow and arrow when he never killed squat. Hasn't even tried in 40-50 years. Not just that, but it's lousy advice. It's misleading advice. It's downright false advice. That bothers me.
Al,...someone saying that tuning isn't important is not a "close enough" statement... it's a reckless statement.
Chad is not addressing 'close enough statements' but blatantly false statements..... more like "not enough" statements
Too funny on the dr. Chad. I sure wouldn't want any surgery performed on me by Dr Close Enough
:biglaugh:
Am I missing something? Do you folks really know guys with a "close enough" mentality in regards to bowhunting? I don't.
I tune my arrows to my bow, very,very well. That said, I have never been satisfied.
Roger, I personally don't know anyone like that. I'm referencing a "guru" from a different site. One who reluctantly admitted to me a few years ago that he hasn't hunted...since the 70's, I think. He either killed a bunny with bow and arrow or witnessed one being killed and "lost his taste for it".
This doesn't stop him from spewing out "expert" advice as if he taught Fred Bear how to hunt. It was his remark that perfect tuning isn't needed for bow hunting...it really didn't even matter, and "good enough is good enough". I could (and have) list a LONG page of false and idiotic remarks he's made concerning bowyers, bow hunting, 3D, bows, and archery in general. Remarks that I have personally seen.
If that wasn't bad enough, he has a troop of groupies that run to his defense and are happy to gang up and slander anyone who dares question their hero.
This absolutely boggles my mind. I understand the old Ron White punchline "You can't fix stupid"...but this guy has a cult like following...and for what? Because they think he sounds good I reckon...never mind he's never done anything of notice in archery, other than talk about it.
Not that there's anything wrong with not being a superstar in the field...most of us never will...but most of us aren't phonies that pretend we have done something either. Most of us don't act like we are experts and dole out false and misleading advice to those who don't know any better and evidently aren't bothering to verify anything.
You aren't really missing anything...nothing important anyway.
Quote from: LBR on October 18, 2018, 05:56:08 PM
Roger, I personally don't know anyone like that. I'm referencing a "guru" from a different site. One who reluctantly admitted to me a few years ago that he hasn't hunted...since the 70's, I think. He either killed a bunny with bow and arrow or witnessed one being killed and "lost his taste for it".
This doesn't stop him from spewing out "expert" advice as if he taught Fred Bear how to hunt. It was his remark that perfect tuning isn't needed for bow hunting...it really didn't even matter, and "good enough is good enough". I could (and have) list a LONG page of false and idiotic remarks he's made concerning bowyers, bow hunting, 3D, bows, and archery in general. Remarks that I have personally seen.
If that wasn't bad enough, he has a troop of groupies that run to his defense and are happy to gang up and slander anyone who dares question their hero.
This absolutely boggles my mind. I understand the old Ron White punchline "You can't fix stupid"...but this guy has a cult like following...and for what? Because they think he sounds good I reckon...never mind he's never done anything of notice in archery, other than talk about it.
Not that there's anything wrong with not being a superstar in the field...most of us never will...but most of us aren't phonies that pretend we have done something either. Most of us don't act like we are experts and dole out false and misleading advice to those who don't know any better and evidently aren't bothering to verify anything.
You aren't really missing anything...nothing important anyway.
Hmmm. Sounds like someone that I wouldn't get along with. Folks that "advise but don't do" aggravate me.
.
I tune until by bare shafts are grouping with the fletched shaft. Then back up and make fine adjustments. Then I slap a big broadhead on a matching shaft. I may have to make minute adjustments for it. In the end, bare,fletched,and broadheads are going to the same spot. Every set of arrows has one with no fletching,for continued checking. I have one set of arrows I haven't even bothered to fletch. They shoot just fine. So I don't think I need more than a 3" parabolic fletch.
I have no idea what all the fuss is about. It seems like we are preaching to the choir. If your arrows are flying point on with no wobble they will penetrate much better. Note the high poundage bow not penetrating the arrow net but the lower one did. We all have to start someplace. If your cut on contact broadheads are shaving sharp you will have no problem.
I do have a little experience. Hunting 5 deer counties most of my life. I am 77. Rice fields over run with feral hogs,a few javelina, a couple of antelope,truck loads of fish and gar,as well as 2 bears. I am sure that pales in comparison to some of you but the deer and hogs were pretty good proving grounds. I might add I have used 42 to 44 pound bows and never failed to get penetration. I do pull them an extra 1 1/2 inches though.
I don't think I have said anything that hasn't been said before so why all the Drama?
Thanks. >>>>------> Ken
We may be preaching to the choir but... the congregation is watching. :campfire:
AMEN
Drama?....since when has informing others against miss information become drama? Have we become so complacent that we just lay down to BS?????
Especially BS from people playing make believe???
Chad, maybe this person has the multitudes fooled into believing he is someone he is not, perhaps?
One of the negative sides to the internet is that people can claim to be whomever and whatever they want their resume to say...and without actually knowing this person, you have no way to prove or disprove that person's claims. If you DO know the person and have proof he or she is not who they claim to be, maybe you should blow the whistle on the other site?
On the other hand, some people need affirmation from others that they are important and/or great and will fill that need in any way possible; up to and including complete fabrication or hunting experience/prowess and lying through their teeth when called on it. Using your example, some people long for the respect a doctor might get even if they are a lousy doctor or not a doctor at all... :dunno:
I though the rest of the quote was printed and it was all resolved, my bad.>>>---> Ken
Chad, I agree with the fact that tuning is of utmost importance to any hunter to help make the most of any chance he gets at a critter.
Why people get on the internet and become someone who they are not is a question I can't answer. I have PM'd several folks I know, telling them to take everything they read on a forum with a grain of salt after reading threads like you mentioned above.
Most any seasoned Trad shooter knows when he is getting buffaloed with disinformation. It the new guys that don't have a clue yet that get led down wrong paths, and those are the guys who need good info the most!!!
Man, that guy really got under your skin, huh????
Bisch
Kenneth, it wasn't "resolved". It's not just that one post, but countless ones over the years with the same theme. Opinions based on imagination rather than experience, but given as if he is an expert on everything archery when the fact is he's done nothing of notice in the sport and often gives "advice" where he has zero experience. When he gets called out, there's any number of groupies that flock to his defense...even here. That's the reason for all the drama.
Kirk, for some reason this guy is protected. No idea why. I have tried calling him out, and when I did he'd dissapear and let his groupies take care of his dirty work. They ignore the message and attack the messenger. Boggles my mind. Only thing I can come up with is that site isn't about promoting archery. Tradgang is the ONLY site I've been to that doesn't protect him and his ilk.
Tony, I wish that were the case. A thread I'd started was (mistakenly) deleted when a couple of people came running to his defense. The ridiculous statements were ignored. The focus was attacking me and questioning me, my honesty, and my integrety for listing a bunch of false and ridiculous statements.
Bisch, I agree 100% on the new guys. That is why he got under my skin. My wife and I have dedicated countless hours and a lot of money out of our own pocket volunteering for a school program that helps young archers get started. I blame those who protect those people who act like they are some kind of expert but don't have a clue. No idea why they do it. They ignore the facts and attack the messenger. It burns me to no end. Like I said on the thread that got removed...people like this are a stain on the sport that I love. A skid mark on the undergarments of archery. The need to be bleached out.
Respectfully, I thought that is what I was doing, posting a correction. The quote was second hand, by admission,out of context, and incomplete. When the whole quote was put up it was resolved to me and others. Then it disappeared.
LBR I know nothing of the other experiences and countless posts over the years,you speak of but that quote was in error and should have been resolved when the full quote was posted.
I believe we all agree that tuning is of the utmost importance. See my thread.
By the way you asked if I would come to your aid? Certainly. If some one posted, what I knew to be false accusations about you, I would jump in to correct it. As I said I hope to always be as quick to defend as I am to criticize. Regards. >>>----> Ken
It has taken me years to figure it out, but a large majority of folks who are consistently spouting advice on the internet are spouting BS.
I actually think TradGang is one of the sites where it DOESN'T happen often. And my theory is that because we happen to meet each other face to face, there is less room for nonsense.
Try one of the tactical shooting or veteran sites. EVRYONE is a hardend combat vet, EVRYONE is a SEAL/Ranger/Sniper/SpaceShuttleDoorGunner :biglaugh:
Kenneth, I did "admit" (sounds like I was trying to hide something before...I wasn't) it was second hand, since I don't go to the site where it was posted.
It wasn't resolved. The full quote, in context, just revealed more false "information" spouted off as if he actually had experience and knew what he was talking about.
The thing about experience is it can change your opinions as it grows. Experiences can vary a lot, and there's only one way to get it.
Pretending you have it when you don't is, to me at least, very telling. It exposes a fake. A phony. A con. A charlatan. A wannabe who never had the talent or discipline or whatever to actually get out and do it, so they just pretend.
I'm no deer slayer. I don't pretend to be. I have spent many years hunting though, many of them with bow and arrow, in several different states and Canada, and I have killed game with traditional gear. My actual experience tells me his pretend experience is wrong.
"Good enough" isn't good enough. Sure, it will get you by sometimes. Sure, there are some sloppy hunters. Anyone that bothers to read forums can get any number of stories every hunting season.
Listing a bunch of excuses as to why "most" hunters don't worry about perfect tune (that "empirical evidence" garbage) and just "grip it and rip it" was not only false, but an underhanded swipe at bow hunters.
Speaking just for myself, I don't care for fakes. I don't care for liars. I don't care for people who take cheap shots at bow hunting. I will correct and expose them if I have the opportunity.
This isn't a case of different opinions. Never has been.
Life ain't fair, people pleasers will succeed more than upfront guys !
State your opinions and do what you feel is right. The rest is not worth getting riled up over. Keep the bp and cortisol down , easy to say ( I know).
Kenneth Butler, if you want to re-paste the entire comment again I'll be more than happy to specifically point out the fallacies.
Either way you want to look at it, the guy is complete phony.
Those who can do, those who can't, teach.
I am sorry I wasn't the one who posted the entire quote. I know nothing of the years of internet B.S. you keep referring to. I only know of what was said right here on this site now.
You seem to be the accuser and dong the name calling. Yet I have not seen one shred of evidence that every thing in the quote was false. I have been receiving messages and emails asking if it was this or that person. Not one had it right. That seems to mean you are messing with others reputations also. That certainly is not good thing.
Now I find out you are a sponsor. Guess I can't fight city hall. So who ever you are not even naming, is guilty until proven innocent. I am sorry I got involved. That is what I get for trying to correct an error.
I hope you have a better day. >>>>-----> Ken
Thank you Ace and BAK!
Something else I'll say again...you don't see this kind of crap posted on Trad Gang. Reckon why? Ever wonder why this guy hasn't joined here to bestow his wisdom on even more of the archery world?
Because he wouldn't last 5 minutes! A fake wannabe putting out crap "information" would be spotted and called out in no time flat here. He wouldn't be PROTECTED, he would be E-JECTED!
I don't begrudge anyone their opinion, regardless if I agree with it or not. There's a difference in giving an opinion and putting out baseless, false, fake "information" as if it's the gospel truth.
Again Kenneth, anything you have a question about just put it up. I have nothing to hide.
Why you want to defend this idiocy is beyond me, but that's your business.
I never said that "everything" in the quote was false. That's a false accusation. Thanks.
How am I messing with the reputations of others? Another false accusation.
So you think that, as a sponsor, I'm getting special treatment? Lol...I've had lots of posts pulled before. Other sponsors have as well.
So here you are again, attacking the messenger, doing that very thing you accuse me of.
Does it matter WHO pretends to have experience but has absolutely none? Does it matter WHO is telling the lies and half-truths? Will it make the "information" better or worse depending on who said it?
Like I said...if you have a question or want to confront me personally, my e-mail is chad@recurves.com.
Mr Butler...don't go dragging 'city hall' into this. I've pulled many a sponsors posts not just Chads....Barry Wensel, Ron LaClair, Ray Hammond, Doug Campbell, Bob Morrison, Rob DiStefano just to name a few, and even my OWN. Maybe you don't know because you don't know. Tradgang is pre instagram, facebook, and youtube. Chad has been about the block more than once, knows the fuller brush(yes, I've been around long enough to know what that means). And, not sure how he's messing with the reputations of others. Who's he named? I posted some stuff too about fake news posting, yet no one is emailing me about that.
I think some are getting too riled up....the typed word sucks,....zero inflection. The most hatted thing by me about message boards. ....and I'm working on a way around this.
C'mon guys, we should be looking out for others. Life is short, no sense in just letting dissinfo to run rampant so new comers will suffer, we should be guarding them against disaster in the making. Least that's the way I see it.....I wouldn't let a kid cook with fire by telling him to stand in it.
Ease up guys, there's wisdom in this thread.... :campfire:
Oh, and I would like to add....
I have turned Sponsors away because they didn't meet the criteria for TradGang and/or they were claiming to to want to pay me big bucks if they would let them 'control' the site with domination advertising.
I have also banned Sponsors and gave them their money back because they didn't want to follow the rules.
I have flat turned money away because of preceding reputations.
So please, don't go down the road of 'the tail wagging the dog'. That aint happening here. However, we will protect the Sponsors against aggression in a heartbeat. Neither is the case here.
We have to have Sponsors to help finance the site no doubt, but they don't anymore run it than we run their business. We are here to help each other.
Like I said, some haven't been here long enough to know our history, they just 'assume' way too much.
Just wanted to make that clear..... :campfire:
Thank you Terry. I'm trying not to take anything personal, but it's not easy...especially when my honesty and integrity is called into question over confronting easily disprovable claims...but the one who made the claims has his words taken at face value? Because he claimed "empirical evidence"? :dunno:
I haven't posted about it before, because I don't like talking about screwing up...but I have one EXPERIENCE while ACTUALLY HUNTING that is contrary to just about every claim made in that post. I'm going off memory (of the post), so forgive me if I missed something.
Last season I wanted to kill a deer with primitive gear...at least with a primitive bow and arrow. I have a 54@30 hickory selfbow I made at the TN Classic several years ago. I actually competed in, and won, the "Selfbow Challenge" with it. Later on I took it to Mr. Eric Krewson's and we further refined it. It's a shooter.
I'm no flint knapper, but I know a few. One of the better ones is James Parker. Survival expert, bowyer, primitive bow hunter...he's got skills. We did some trading, and for my end of the bargain I got a dozen Tonkin cane arrows with flint heads.
I took this dozen arrows (the shafts had been spined and sorted before being made into arrows) and I shot them...and shot them...and shot them. I have a dense foam target that wouldn't dull the (very sharp) stone points, and would show impact. I chose three arrows from the dozen, for (perfect) flight and sharpness. I was getting a good 7" of penetration into the dense foam. Should blow through a whitetail like a paper sack.
After several days of ACTUAL HUNTING, the PERFECT opportunity presented itself. A great big old doe was diving nearly to her eyeballs in pine straw (evidently something grows under the straw and the deer love it). I watched and waited. She was maybe 8 yds, perfectly broadside, head down behind a tree, totally relaxed (or as relaxed as a MS whitetail ever gets). She had no clue I was in the world.
One thing I love about self bows...a mouse fart seems loud compared to mine. I had chartreuse marribou feather "tracers" glued to the back of my arrow so I could see it in flight. Looked like a tennis ball. Shot was absolutely perfect. She didn't even flinch until the arrow struck.
I'm thinking "dead deer". Long story short, after getting a buddy and looking...and looking...and looking...finally found my arrow. Blood showed just under 2" penetration. Best we could figure the head hit perfectly horizontal between two ribs and the ribs gave just enough to kill penetration. Deer got sore ribs out of the deal.
Now, to get to the point.
I didn't go with "good enough".
I put a lot of time and work into getting everything right. I didn't have on heavy clothes (early bow season in MS...if I remember correctly I was wearing shorts). I wasn't in an odd position. I didn't rush the shot (had plenty of time). I'd practiced the shot (seated) over and over and over. I wasn't "cold" (I shot before I went to the blind and wasn't there very long, and it wasn't even cool weather). I sure didn't "grip it and rip it".
Absolutely none of that so-called "empiricle evidence" applied to me or my situation. Even though I went way above and beyond "good enough", it wasn't good enough.
THAT is the difference in actual experience vs. phony imagination and pretending. That is why that "good enough is good enough" and all the excuses to try and justify it is some of the worst "advice" I've ever seen. That is why I strongly suggest you take the "advice" given by someone who has ZERO experience with a grain of salt.
Thanks for the clarification, Terry. Wrong is wrong, no matter who posts it.
Since I obviously don't frequent the site you are mentioning, Chad, I have no idea of who this person is...or perhaps I do but don't realize it...it makes it hard for me to verify what you are are saying, but i do understand your frustration in 'experts' teaching false information (doctrine, if you will) to new hunters and archers. It's easy to take the word of someone who speaks with authority as gospel when you are young or a newbie to a sport; make that lifestyle such as trad archery...because one of the many facets of trad hunting is the unwritten code of ethics that goes along with that lifestyle. And if you can't transfer that code along with the passion and love for hunting and trad archery, you have created a very dangerous situation that can spread like a disease within the trad community, as it's done in other facets of hunting. And enough non/anti hunters already have a negative prejudice toward trad hunting as 'cruel, ineffective and inhumane' already without creating a new generation of Rambo-oriented neanderthals that will bend or break the rules (as well as the code of ethics) any way they see fit, to get their jollies and a freezer full of meat.
Anyway, thanks for bringing this to the forefront, Chad. It's a critical issue in a very crucial time, as trad hunting (at least in my neck of the woods) is skating on very thin ice right now.
Thanks Terry, I wrote you to explain personally but it was blocked.
I am neither accusing nor bear any ill will. The P.M.'s and emails I got are real. I believe a couple were right here. One may have even been on the thread that was pulled. They asked if Chad was talking about this guy or that. None got it right. Many more are probably thinking bad of good folks that don't write and question it. I hate to see good folks repetition sullied needlessly. When they don't even know about it. All I can do is answer and say no he was not talking about him, to the ones that do write. I really wish the name calling and bashing would stop. Thanks for listening. >>>------> Ken
Kenneth Butler, I have no idea why anyone would contact you as you neither posted the thread and obviously you aren't the one responding to it. I also have no idea why it's somehow my fault that people are taking guesses. I've put my e-mail up at least twice, plus it's available in my profile, plus anyone can private message me any time they want.
You aren't accusing and bear no ill will? Except you are obviously questioning my honesty and integrity while defending him.
Stating facts is not bashing. The "name calling" is calling it as I see it.
Once again, if you have a question about anything I've said, ask it. Once again, I have nothing to hide.
Almost forgot...if you are referring to the poster as the "good person" who's "reputation is sullied" (you aren't clear there), don't worry. He trashed his "reputation" years ago. He's a laughing stock in the archery community amongst those of us who have been around and seen his comments over the years. The internet makes for a small world, and there's quite a few of us that actually have EXPERIENCE hunting, shooting in tournaments, and travelling to do both.
No!!! I guess the typed word don't make it clear. Chad who in the world am I defending?
You make accusations without naming names and folks are coming to the wrong conclusions as to who you are talking about. I am sorry,I do not know how to make it any plainer. As to emailing you. I am not sure I want my address in the hands of someone that carries on such a vendetta. Not questioning your honor or integrity. In this case I think you were TOLD bad information or simply made a mistake. Please stop calling out my name. I feel the need to defend myself as well as others. This nonsense has gone on way too long. Let it be,move on, and try to salvage the rest of the day. >>>----> Ken
Sorry Kirk...my intent wasn't to bring attention to some person or another site, but rather the absurd statement and the fact that there are (obviously) people who are naïve, inexperienced, or just trusting enough to believe a ridiculous remark and even defend it in spite of the facts.
I've said for years that the internet is one of the best and worst things to ever happen to archery. Gobs of good information available, but gobs of bad information also, and in our "I want it all and I want it now!" society some people have a tendency to think that all they have to do is read about it and that's as good as living it. There are plenty out there ready and willing to feed them whatever they want to hear. "Internet experts". Sound convincing, but when you start peeling the onion you find it's rotten on the inside.
Then when someone dares mention that the king has no clothes, what happens? You get attacked. HOW DARE YOU! He's so helpful, so quick to give advice and information...never mind he doesn't know what he's talking about, he SOUNDS good. You are just hateful, and have an agenda, and just aren't a nice person...
Oh well. Ron White rule.
Wow Kenneth. Do you read your own posts?
I'll ask again...why should I "name names"? Will that make a lie more or less true with a name attached?
I'm responsible for other people's conclusions?
QuoteI am not sure I want my address in the hands of someone that carries on such a vendetta. Not questioning your honor or integrity.
Lol...you just totally contradicted yourself. Btw, you can p.m. any question you might have without sending your address.
You keep accusing me, I'll keep calling you out.
You don't "think" anything. You are making assumptions and ignoring what I've actually said, yet feel justified in accusing me of a "vendetta" amongst other things. Comes across as quite hypocritical to me.
I don't have a dog in the chase and it doesn't matter one way or the other to me, BUT.... there's always a but, you know? Seems reasonable to me the whole post should have been posted to keep the context of what was written before anyone took upon themselves to defend or be critical of the poster in that particular thread. Believe me, I agree with Chad about other comments from this fellow, but you're talking about this one post in that one thread. So.... for better understanding of what you fella's have been talking about, here's the post in question.
"That is however a horrible bow to learn on. It's too heavy and way too short. Yes, you are learning, despite your compound history.
Next you said, "I'll be attempting to hunt with it next season, so tune is critical."
Ah, no. Tuning is a good thing, but hardly critical in a hunting situation. IOWs, close enough is close enough. Fact is, few bow hunters have good enough form (in a hunting situation) to get any benefit from a "perfect" tune vs. a close tune.
I know it's been done, but with a bow that short, I would not go 3 under and a glove ain't gonna help, think about a tab.
So, if you really want to hunt it next season, get a cheap, lighter and longer bow to learn on, and then see if you really want to work with that one."
QuoteFirst one has bugged me literally for years. When there are so many real sources of information, why would anyone get their advice from someone who's barely if ever hunted and never killed anything with a bow? Seriously. I've seen it more times than I care to remember and it always just puzzles me.
As for the first part of your post.... I've often wondered the same thing. I've watched guys that never hunt, give all kinds of advice about how to hunt, what kind of broadheads to use, how they should shoot their bows, what kind of bow they should use, etc., etc. It's beyond me. It'd be like me giving advice to an Olympic Archer. :)
When/if you get it figured out, let me know...... ;)
Thanks Jim. Like I said before, I don't even go there. Not good for the blood pressure.
Wasn't there a part 2 where he talked about clothing, position, "grip it and rip it" and such?
QuoteAh, no. Tuning is a good thing, but hardly critical in a hunting situation. IOWs, close enough is close enough. Fact is, few bow hunters have good enough form (in a hunting situation) to get any benefit from a "perfect" tune vs. a close tune.
Tuning is "hardly critical" in a "hunting situation"? When someone doesn't hunt, how do that know what constitutes a "hunting situation"? Would that be still hunting, stalking, tree stand, blind, or? Sitting, standing, crouching, kneeling?
As I posted before, even when you do everything you can the best you can, things can still go wrong...so don't worry about doing your best? That is just plain stupid.
I have lost the premise of this thread. Is it about some self proclaimed expert that said good tuning is not necessary for hunting or what ever? Is it about ethics, which are a personal choice? I have seen on Trad Gang many threads or post I consider poor to very poor advice. Example, if your broadheads and field points hit at the same point you are tuned good enough. Not in my opinion. Anyway I guess I have lost the point of this thread.
The original was accidently dumped, this one kinda picked up where it left off. The original was "the worst advice I've ever seen", based on the post Jim put up. It's not differing opinion, it's just wrong. There's another part where there were excuses like clothing, and the claim of "empirical evidence" that "most" bowhunters "grip it and rip it", etc. Not that the advice is just lousy, but given from the standpoint of "this is the way it is, period" and the guy doesn't hunt, barely if ever hunted (decades ago if he did), and never killed anything that maybe a bunny. In other words, a fake. Phony. Pretender.
LBR asked, "Wasn't there a part 2 where he talked about clothing, position, "grip it and rip it" and such?"
Not in that particular thread, Chad.
Thanks again Jim. Somebody has posted another part, giving excuses as to why tune wasn't "critical". I want to say there were similar threads on two different sites.
It never ends...lol. He almost made sense for a little bit, but again...zero hunting experience shows through...
Quote"Guys -
Glad you folks can see through the BS. The best way to deal with people
who continually "stir-the-pot" (and not in a good way) is to ignore them.
That takes away the one thing they desperately need - attention.
Anyway, getting back the the original topic... tuning is generally a good
thing, if you remember that you can only tune as well as you can shoot and
while tuning can make a rig more forgiving, it will only forgive minor
form flubs. That's why the better the shooter, the tight the tune. The
more inconsistencies or the less controlled the environment, the less
"critical" the tune becomes - within reason of course.
Not going to bother with the personal attack. Straight to the point.
"The more inconsistencies or the less controlled the environment, the less
"critical" the tune becomes - within reason of course."
That's plain stupid. When it's raining or snowing, are you more careful about how you drive or less?
You control what you can, PERIOD. When there are things you can't control...weather, wind, etc....then if anything you would want AN EVEN BETTER TUNE to try to get the most from the shot. That remark is like saying "when the road conditions are hazardous, speed up because when you can't control the car as well it's less important to be careful."
I don't care who says it. That's not an opinion, it's an idiotic remark. And it's not supposed to matter as much because it's a living, breathing animal you are shooting at?
Man alive...sickening...
At least it highlights the difference in here and there. Over there he'll get accolades and "attaboys". Shows the difference in mentality between this board and that one. Hunters vs. posers.
Mr Butler...you are not blocked from me...I don't have my PMs enabled...and for good reason. I get so many emails that I don't need an email telling me I have a persona message when folks can just click on my name and email me directly. So, feel free to email me if need be. No worries.
"""Ah, no. Tuning is a good thing, but hardly critical in a hunting situation. IOWs, close enough is close enough. Fact is, few bow hunters have good enough form (in a hunting situation) to get any benefit from a "perfect" tune vs. a close tune."""
This statement comes from a 'basket weaver' NOT a hunter. I'm about ready to name call now!!!!
Here ya go "basket weaver"....
Target archery is really way dumbed down 3D......
Over the Pond...... (http://www.tradgang.com/videos/tg/terry-2.wmv)
Man oh man...I could post that "laundry list" again of idiotic remarks...some of them make the ones we are talking about look smart!
I think you are right Terry...there were Indians who hunted, defended the tribe,...killed stuff. There were others that hung out at camp and wove baskets and gathered nuts, and made up stories to tell around the fire. We know which job that guy would have had. Think he's been hitting the peyote too...
Regardless of any one opinion, taking the life of an animal deserves our most intense attention to detail and due diligence to make sure the shot is as ethical and morally humane as possible, tuning included...or to decline the shot. And that's all I've got to say about that.
Amazing anyone would take tuning advice for hunting from someone who has basically never hunted.