I have been experimenting with some different arrow setups. Both configurations tune well to the bow and both use 200 gn Bone broadheads. I have not been able to chrono them but there is a noticeable speed difference and point on difference, however both have a predictable flight and can be shot accurately.
One setup has a total arrow weight of around 550 gn and the other is around 635 gn. The lighter setup has a slightly higher FOC%. Both are shot from a bow that draws approximately 54 lbs at my draw length. Both configurations tested at typical hunting ranges and even out to 35-40 yards on 3D to compare performance.
The question is, with the primary purpose of hunting with shots under 30 yards is a slower arrow with more mass and energy ideal or is a faster arrow that may not have the smack of a heaver setup ideal in everyone's opinion? I know there is no right answer but I am more curious of opinions on the matter.
Thanks!
My personal preference is a heavier arrow up to a point. Momentum is the name of the game in our world. But I shoot 99% of my critters at 20 yards and under. Speed is of very little concern to me . I want a efficient bow that will provide momentum with a heavy arrow . Think of the old ping pong ball vs golf ball analogy, with that said your lighter arrow is still over 10gpp which is a good area to be in
I agree. I prefer it have some force when it gets to the target rather than get it to the target fast but out of steam.
i like arrows around 10-11 gpp. for whitetails the 550 is enough in my opinion. I would like to at this point acknowledge Nathan Andersohn. in a recent podcast he was on he was talking about his super slam and the weight arrows he shoots on ALL game. what he says might surprise most folks, but you absolutely cannot question his success.
For hunting I've found my best penetration/performance is 9-10 GPP. That's for my bows in the high 30s to the mid 50s. On a side note, I used those heads last year. Great Broadhead.
Quote from: mec lineman on July 30, 2018, 01:33:18 PM
i like arrows around 10-11 gpp. for whitetails the 550 is enough in my opinion. I would like to at this point acknowledge Nathan Andersohn. in a recent podcast he was on he was talking about his super slam and the weight arrows he shoots on ALL game. what he says might surprise most folks, but you absolutely cannot question his success.
Which podcast was that interview on?
the push
I listed to that one as well. It was really good. If you listen to the one where they talk to Rick Duggan, he talks about completing the super slam with a 475 grain arrow from a 58 pound bow. Makes you wonder...
I think they will both work fine, and you should use the one that you have the most confidence in, and are most accurate with!
35-40yd shots on live critters????
Bisch
Quote from: Bisch on July 30, 2018, 04:40:43 PM
I think they will both work fine, and you should use the one that you have the most confidence in, and are most accurate with!
35-40yd shots on live critters????
Bisch
That was my question as well.
Quote from: Bisch on July 30, 2018, 04:40:43 PM
I think they will both work fine, and you should use the one that you have the most confidence in, and are most accurate with!
35-40yd shots on live critters????
Bisch
I didn't word that clearly. I never shoot past 30 hunting but I tested both out to approximately 35-40 yards on a 3D target to see the performance as they lose some steam.
Yeah, I'm also with Bisch on this one. I shoot several bows in the poundage described and at the 550 grain approximate weight. In my experience, slight though it is, this strikes a good balance between velocity and mass. I don't believe this arrow will run out of steam at appropriate hunting distances. However, if you like the heavier approach, there is nothing wrong with it, either. Essentially, you are looking at a win/win choice. Which ever one you choose, be sure to post pics.
Quote from: Sam McMichael on July 30, 2018, 08:17:12 PM
Yeah, I'm also with Bisch on this one. I shoot several bows in the poundage described and at the 550 grain approximate weight. In my experience, slight though it is, this strikes a good balance between velocity and mass. I don't believe this arrow will run out of steam at appropriate hunting distances. However, if you like the heavier approach, there is nothing wrong with it, either. Essentially, you are looking at a win/win choice. Which ever one you choose, be sure to post pics.
I definitely will! Looking forward to seeing how these Bone broadheads perform!
Seeing as both set-ups should have more than adequate energy, I would choose the one with the flatter trajectory. But, that is because I have proven to make errors in judging distance under pressure in the past & would rather have the set-up more forgiving of such errors.
That being said, my opinion is worth little to nothing since I have never killed anything with ANY bow (other than some fish, a little bit of foam and a LOT of time.... :wavey:).
The problem I have with that thinking is nobody shoots an arrow close to that weight in a compound and they blow through animals all the time. Speed kills. I believe a balance must be found but saying I can only shoot 15 yards because I have to shoot such a heavy arrow it has a rainbow arch does not compute for me.
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Speed just makes you miss faster!
The reason compounders blow thru critters is because of the much higher speeds produced by those bows. Trad bows are inherently much slower, and as such, you need added arrow weight for higher momentum which produces better penetration!!!!!
Bisch
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635 gr is only 15% heavier than 550 gr.
In real world you won t see a significant increase in penetration on critters at real stickbow hunting range.
Though on the lighter arrow speed will be in the 15 fps faster. When bowhunting sometime we make shots with perfect form and release and full draw length and sometimes in the fever there is weak shots with less than perfect release, underdraw etc ... in those shots, that extra speed may help to stay in the game and hit the vitals thanks the avoidance of 2-3 inches arrow drop. At least, It happened to me many times.
Quote from: Bisch on July 30, 2018, 11:56:09 PM
Quote from: GCook on July 30, 2018, 11:19:15 PM
The problem I have with that thinking is nobody shoots an arrow close to that weight in a compound and they blow through animals all the time. Speed kills.
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Speed just makes you miss faster!
The reason compounders blow thru critters is because of the much higher speeds produced by those bows. Trad bows are inherently much slower, and as such, you need added arrow weight for higher momentum which produces better penetration!!!!!
Bisch
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Maybe if you only look at the 300fps bows of today. But my first compound didn't sling an arrow much faster than the recurve I shoot today and I shot through a few deer with it like they were paper targets. Leaving a broadhead buried in a cedar trunk 10 yards past the deer on the first buck I killed with it.
Only a 125 grain Satellite broadhead up front.
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Please no disrespect to be taken, but why all the recent discussions about compound bows. Remember this is a Tradition bowhunting forum. I understand that it is just comparison talk, but it will ultimately lead to removal of the thread.
If you are equally accurate with both, heavy is always better. Otherwise the more accurate set up.
all that matters most is yer consistent accuracy under hunt conditions. the rest is just something to talk about when we're not hunting.
Quote from: mec lineman on July 31, 2018, 08:27:39 AM
Please no disrespect to be taken, but why all the recent discussions about compound bows. Remember this is a Tradition bowhunting forum. I understand that it is just comparison talk, but it will ultimately lead to removal of the thread.
None taken. Just comparing an arrow at 204fps out of a recurve vs ro an arrow at 212 out of an old compound energy wise won't be far off yet somehow it's considered apples and oranges.
My set up shoots great, well tuned and fp/bh shoot same point of aim but I'm just over 8.4gpp. Foc is a out 15%. For Texas whitetail and pigs I think I should be good. Most importantly I have to do my part and put it in the right spot.
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I prefer heavier within reason. And heavier also means quieter. Of course it also depends on the game and distances. Open terrain out west will require a hunter to be more proficient than someone hunting thick cover. So I'd go a little lighter to improve trajectory if i was hunting something like pronghorn vs. Whitetails in a thick swamp.
Out here in the open corn barrens, where bucks can be 5 miles distance from one day to the next and the occasional mid-field terrace is called cover, a bit of speed doesn't hurt and a bit of accuracy past 25 yards doesn't hurt either.
I lean towards the heavy side myself , seems to work for me..
,,Sam,,
Hunt within your effective hunting range...acknowledge the ever changing effective range within the given circumstances...make the shot and neither arrow will kill a deer deader than the other.
Quote from: Trenton G. on July 30, 2018, 02:55:10 PM
I listed to that one as well. It was really good. If you listen to the one where they talk to Rick Duggan, he talks about completing the super slam with a 475 grain arrow from a 58 pound bow. Makes you wonder...
I recently listened to both of those podcasts. Interesting for sure and it got me thinking about doing a little experimenting myself
I would probably pick the lighter one if shooting over twenty yards especially if you're not shooting at anything bigger than a deer. Twenty yards seems to be about the point where I can see a big difference between arrow speeds POI!
There is only one answer and that is predicated upon the foundation of your own established confidence.
This debate is no infant and will continue and continue to be chewed upon well into the future.
Well and enough said.
I spent some time tuning some carbon arrows to my longbow. I was able to get 340's and 400's to tune very well to my bow. One shaft was longer though which gave it more weight. I don't remember the exact weight. I also tuned them both using 200 grain tips.
At the end I had one arrow shaft longer and heavier as well as one that was shorter and lighter (just shy of 9gpp). I had quite the mental road block trying to determine which arrow I would use for an upcoming bear hunt. I opted for the shorter/lighter arrow given that it had more FOC than the longer/heavier one.
Now the differences were minimal. There isn't that big a difference in weight, length and FOC. But I tried to build an arrow for that shot I mess up on. I'm shooting 200 grain single bevel broad heads. I was successful on my bear hunt btw. And the arrow passed though the bear lodging itself in the off side shoulder blade.
-Jeremy
Speed or Energy??? I want as much of both as I can get.
That being said there are always compromises/trade offs. Even your "light" arrow is over 10 gpp. Shoot whichever one you have the most confidence in.
Quote from: Hermon on August 01, 2018, 09:19:44 AM
Speed or Energy??? I want as much of both as I can get.
That being said there are always compromises/trade offs. Even your "light" arrow is over 10 gpp. Shoot whichever one you have the most confidence in.
I agree. The 550 gr is still above 10 gpi, which is plenty for most critters.
I think most trad shooters would agree that keeping the FOC high also pays out, especially at longer distances.
I shoot a 72# bow with a 575gr arrow. This combo is just perfect for me. It gives me a bit of everything but most important "confidence". The biggest game I hunt is whitetails and I've never had any issues with penetration, if I ever do I would up the anty in a heartbeat. The flat trajectory is the big seller for me. My logic is if 400 gr is praised by a guy shooting a 40lb bow how can my 575gr be in the wrong. Bow is quiet and it just plain works for what I do.
My hunting bows are 49 to 55#. Hunting arrows weigh in the 550 to 600 grains.
I shot a nice bear with a 48# bow last year with complete pass through, so I started off this year thinking I would use a 49# stickflinger.
Then I was talking with Glenn Hermon and he agreed to trade a set of 55# limbs to me. Glad I did that, as I like the trajectory better even though it is only 5# difference. I dont shoot much beyond 20 yards, but it seems quite noticable to me.
10-11 grains per pound is about perfect in my opinion. Especially when shooting over 50 pounds. That setup would work for elk and moose as well.
Mike
Ok, nerd alert! The question isn't really about speed vs. energy because an arrow's energy is a function of it's speed. Actually it's not even a question of bow weight (bow weight does affect speed and energy but some bows of the same poundage can shoot harder/faster than others due to design...so it's an inconsistent variable) or momentum (momentum relates mostly to a fixed arrow velocity and it's mass...hard to quantify on an object that slows down quickly as it moves to it's end). It makes more sense to use kinetic energy (a measure of the energy of an object in motion) as a yardstick, even though that isn't perfect either. Still, a bow/arrow combo that delivers at least 30 ft. lbs. of K.E. should work pretty well for deer-sized critters, a broad guesstimate based on what seems to work in the real world for most bowhunters. The problem comes when folks get into the mindset that very light arrows shot from very light bows are great for target shooting so they must be ok for big game because the arrows seem to fly pretty fast. That MAY work...but only as long as the K.E. for an on-the-edge bow/arrow combo is enough to overcome the penetration roadblocks posed by less-than-perfect hits (bones and scapulas are alot harder to penetrate than soft lungs...doh).
So, for a bit of insurance in the event, however remote it might be, that we all don't make perfect hits all the time, it's best to stay away from 'ultralight' bowhunting tackle for bigger critters. It might work fine for perfect lung hits on stationary animals but for the average shooter under average hunting conditions that isn't always what happens. So, why risk it?
I suppose a better way to say this is, why not just let common sense have it's day.
No matter what your weighs it is absolutely critical that your broadhead is razor sharp. I also prefer cut on contacts.
Assuming the same size fletching, lighter arrows are more affected by drag than heavier arrows. Dan Quillian insisted that in flight shooting, a heavier head on the same arrow would fly farther. I never tested to see if he was right, but he was very rarely wrong on anything to do with archery. I like arrows to be heavier, because they don't react as much as lighter ones to flubs in the release or other aspects of form in a hunting situation.
I think with arrows, there's a point of diminishing returns. "Middle of the road" seems to work best for me. Between 9-11 gpp has always worked for me, with decent cast/trajectory and penetration. The rig I'll carry to start off the whitetail season with this year is shooting a 9.8 gpp arrow perfectly, nice speed with still enough weight to penetrate decently.
Like the old 45-70.....slow and heavy gets it done!!!
I would say it depends. If you're going to be hunting antelope at the far end of your effective range, go light. If you're going to be hunting hogs at close range, heavy.
I actually have a lighter (8.4gpp) set up and a 9.9ishgpp set up for that cause.
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Compounds are irrelevant to real bowhunters and the information is NOT welcome here - and I couldn't care less if someone takes this statement as disrespect.
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I would not sweat it to much.A straight flying arrow that recovers from paradox quickly and has a strong razorsharp broadhead is most important including being good shot with good arrow placement.I think a balanced arrow is probably the best bet on deer sized game.Around 10 grains per pound.
A heavy arrow performs better on hits to heavier bone and larger game with bigger ribs.
Terry Green, the owner of trad gang, made a post back on August 15th.
He stated that there will be no mention of compounds or wheelbows in this site.
Please adhere to his request!
http://www.tradgang.com/tgsmf/index.php?topic=163282.0
Thanks
Speed?
In bowhunting there are many factors....a big one being bow noise.
A fast arrow with accompanying bow noise is begging for animals to move on the shot.
I think what the fast [and lighter] arrow guys are saying is; An arrow with perfect arrow flight and a sharp 2 blade head is an incredibly efficient killer....and it is.
To me it just boils down to different strokes for different folks....viva la difference!
Good point, Beendare. Especially with recurves, a heavier arrow tames the noisiness. I started shooting recurves instead of longbows a few years ago so I could go down in draw weight but still put the energy in the arrow. Even though recurves are technically more efficient with lighter arrows, I have found that I get good quiet shooting with arrows that weight 12-15 grains/inch. I've killed several deer with 40 and 50 pound bows since changing, and the 50# recurve (set up hot!) shoots the same arrows I was shooting from my 64# r/d longbow. Same arrows = same energy. With heavy arrows I don't find a noticeable difference in bow noise.
for myself, and perhaps the majority of trad bowhunters, having a good 10gpp setup and the ability to have consistent accuracy at trad bowhunting woods distances typically is a fine setup that works best.
this is not a game of speed, this is a game of good consistent accuracy at ethical trad bow hunting distances, no more or less.
the reason for the 10gpp arrow is quiet stable consistency, not so much interested in the energy thing, though the greater energy numbers will be there as well.
all of this is good stuff, but none will work well unless the pointy thing at the end of the flying stick is cut-on-contact Sharp like you won't believe.
life is good ... for us. life is quickly over ... for our quarry. it'll all happen on cue if we do our part well.
:campfire:
It is not a "vs" thing. Speed and energy do not compete. Energy (kinetic) is dependent upon speed (as well as mass). Without speed there would be no kinetic energy. To me it seems pretty straight forward, shoot the heaviest arrow that you can shoot accurately and consistently at the distances you will be shooting. For many of us that is about 20 yards and in. If you are shooting an arrow that is so heavy that it drops 20" in 20 yards it is probably too heavy. As shown over time a ball park figure of about 10 ggp gives us good enough speed and plenty of energy to do what we want the arrow to do. It goes without saying the pointy thing on the end needs to be sharp.
Its kind of funny really....it seems to me the guys tossing number around for "KE" don't really get it.
KE is misapplied in archery so much its ridiculous...but I don't want to go there..../grin
Ask a guy that have been hunting and killing stuff for years with a bow and arrow what his numbers are....most don't even know ....or care.
The successful bowhunters I know instead emphasize; good shooting form.... smooth accuracy....good arrow flight.....a quiet bow..... and a sharp BH.
They don't go into a long dissertation on KE...or a minimum FOC number......
Money.
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Quote from: beendare on August 24, 2018, 11:53:34 AM
Its kind of funny really....it seems to me the guys tossing number around for "KE" don't really get it.
KE is misapplied in archery so much its ridiculous...but I don't want to go there..../grin
Ask a guy that have been hunting and killing stuff for years with a bow and arrow what his numbers are....most don't even know ....or care.
The successful bowhunters I know instead emphasize; good shooting form.... smooth accuracy....good arrow flight.....a quiet bow..... and a sharp BH.
They don't go into a long dissertation on KE...or a minimum FOC number......
Can't argue with good form, smooth accuracy, good arrow flight, quiet bow, and a sharp BH that is for sure. Could have done without the condescending forward however. I would guess that a lot of guys hunting and killing stuff for years know how heavy the arrow is they shoot. The ones I know do, including myself. As far as KE goes...you can't shoot an arrow without it. ;)
To be clear....I wasn't trying to be condescending to anyone here.
I didn't mean to ruffle any feathers...its probably that "KE" is a pet peeve of mine, alone it doesn't tell you anything.
Someone tells you,"I'm at 55 KE"...that doesn't tell anyone anything about their setup.
Arrow flight trumps everything else when it comes to total arrow performance, including penetration. I'd recommend paper tuning both setups to confirm that they are both flying perfectly straight. Personally, I generally shoot arrows on the heavy side like your 635's, but either will be very much up to the task.
No ruffled feathers. Agree with what you say. Lot's of factors involved in a good hunting arrow set up. I think the original questions has been answered by most as both of those set ups will get the job done. Good hunting!
I agree. In retrospect I should have made the subject speed vs. weight since that is what I was curious about from a personal opinion standpoint. Regardless there was good information brought to the table.
I think this thread has run it's course and can be closed.
Decent Speed with plenty of momentum.
And Cory...thanks, I've been posting about this for a month now...thanks for your help getting the message out.