It just struck me this morning that as much as we want to tell everyone we are "traditional " hunters, most of us are likely just pretending.
We shoot the highest tech composite bows, many carved out by CNC machines;
Our arrows are the highest tech, computer balanced, carbon fiber, nearly indestructible shafts;
Many of the broadheads are costing crazy high prices and they are machined from high tech alloy steel;
Many are carrying the most expensive high tech optics and laser range finders they can find;
Most are hunting out of tree stands that have taken a team of engineers to design;
Many are putting out high tech cameras to pattern our quarry, some even sending pictures back to our computers to tell us all the details; There is no doubt what so ever some guys are using the latest drone technology to do the same thing.
Those with enough money are buying tractors and machinery to plant tasty crops to ensure we'll maximize the likelihood the biggest and best deer will grow and frequent our little bit of heaven;
What say you? :campfire:
Dang, I am getting old and a bit out of shape...so could I get a Diet Pepsi with just a little butter on my popcorn?
Depends upon your definition of traditional. If by traditional you mean a basic stick that is bent by a single string attached at the two ends of the stick and used to propel an arrow, then the materials making up a traditional bow matter not at all. I mean the composite bow has been around a couple thousand years. Varios materials have been used to make longbows and recurves for many thousands of years in varying designs. So, I don't think today's traditional bowhunter is pretending at all!
Quote from: Blackhawk on July 04, 2018, 01:16:57 PM
Dang, I am getting old and a bit out of shape...so could I get a Diet Pepsi with just a little butter on my popcorn?
:laughing:
I've been shooting sticks for more than 60 years. Most of the things you mention weren't around when I started, and I use few of them now.
But, the world has changed. Technology now permeates every aspect of our lives. I wouldn't call folks who use the technology and practices you mention pretenders. They just haven't yet learned what they're missing. :goldtooth:
I dunno. I suppose this topic is worth discussing, but we seem to make little progress in furthering understanding or agreement, which would provide the basis for generally accepted norms.
I'm a modern bowhunter who happens to shoot a traditional bow. Never claimed to be otherwise.
We could all do ourselves a favor by recognizing the (recent) origins of the term "traditional" and realizing that it's just a label used to distinguish "trad" gear from wheel bows.
Trying to draw further and finer distinctions just boils down to egotistical hair splitting until we have arrived at hundreds of highly personalized definitions that are each shared by a tiny mutual admiration society and ridiculed from without by the hundreds of thousands who don't "belong".
Carbon? Wood? Gore Tex? Wool? Let's all just get over it.
I feel "traditional" because I shoot a bow without wheels,sights and no release devices. I shoot wood arrows when hunting and carbon when 3D shooting is involved. Tree stands don't matter as far as I'm concerned, mostly I feel like doing what I like ,hunting by the laws of the land and treating all animals I hunt with respect. I don't feel like categorizing my great sport.
I see no good use for this thread as others like it in the past.
I thought about removing it myself.
But I decided to pass it up the line and see what others higher up the chain of command think.
I enjoy shooting/hunting with modern traditional equipment and selfbows. I don't really question what is in my hand. I just enjoy the arrow flight.
🍿
Traditional has a different meaning for different people. For me, traditional means a bow and arrow with no mechanical advantage that you could put down in front of a caveman and he would understand how to use without having to explain it to him. For example, I think you would have to explain sights to him, so that wouldn't qualify. Other than that, it could be made out of modern materials and still satisfy that definition.
Don't get me wrong gentlemen, and perhaps the choice of wording was poor on my part. "Pretend" may not be correct, but I too have been at this for over 50 years, and do find myself questioning all the advancements I've sometimes embraced.
The equipment, or the lack of it, and the techniques used seemed to work just as well for me when I first got into this game. As has been mentioned, many just don't know what their missing by not stepping back a bit and relying on a little less technology.
Not trying to pee in anyone's pocket, just reflecting a bit is all. :coffee:
"traditional bowhunting" or "traditional archer" means whatever you think it means.
however ....
if you think that the weapon itself specifically means creating yer own hand drawn bow, string and arrows all by yerself, out of trees and hemp, and reed shoots, and bird feathers, and sinew, and pitch tar, and flint stone, and yadda yadda yadda - no, really, that's beyond silly.
if you think that the act of hunting with yer traditional bow should not include added "gadgets and gimmicks" or "hunting enhancements" that might "speed up" or "make easier" the hunt process, that is a personal call because with or without those "aids" you've still got to draw, hold and release to make the kill. maybe with gadgets yer gonna attempt or make that kill sooner than later - so what? this is just a personal call.
none of the above is a "pretend" thing, because in the final analysis, it's still up to the person drawing string on a critter, with what we've always defined as a traditional bow who's format could be carved outta wood or laid up carbon fiber, don't matter.
no matter what, if you think that hunting a "zoo" (high fence) venue is ok, no it's not, that's closer to shootin fish in a barrel and is not about traditional bowhunting (nor allowed here at trad gang).
I don't do labels, but I make my own bows, fletch my arrows and all that. I did hire a weld shop to make my own design of tree stands.
Guess I shoulda went out on a limb on the stands... :goldtooth:
when I was a kid, prior to the advent of the compound bows, it was simply archery and a bow was simply a bow. After the prominence of compounds was established, I started hearing non compound bows referred to as "traditional" bows. This difference in bow technology is what seems to have started the whole "traditional" archery concept. That distinction is both my starting point and my end point in the discussion of what is traditional archery. True, I shoot only wooden arrows now, because they just seem to fit well with my Hill style long bow. Arguing that this is more traditional or that is less traditional may start many debates but will change no minds. Why bother?
Quote from: Sam McMichael on July 04, 2018, 03:48:38 PM
when I was a kid, prior to the advent of the compound bows, it was simply archery and a bow was simply a bow. After the prominence of compounds was established, I started hearing non compound bows referred to as "traditional" bows. This difference in bow technology is what seems to have started the whole "traditional" archery concept. That distinction is both my starting point and my end point in the discussion of what is traditional archery. True, I shoot only wooden arrows now, because they just seem to fit well with my Hill style long bow. Arguing that this is more traditional or that is less traditional may start many debates but will change no minds. Why bother?
that is a perfect post on this topic matter, sir. :clapper:
Quote from: monterey on July 04, 2018, 02:20:38 PM
We could all do ourselves a favor by recognizing the (recent) origins of the term "traditional" and realizing that it's just a label used to distinguish "trad" gear from wheel bows.
Trying to draw further and finer distinctions just boils down to egotistical hair splitting until we have arrived at hundreds of highly personalized definitions that are each shared by a tiny mutual admiration society and ridiculed from without by the hundreds of thousands who don't "belong".
Carbon? Wood? Gore Tex? Wool? Let's all just get over it.
Well said Monterrey!
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
Not that I'd care what anybody thought if I wanted to do any of those as long as they were legal, but the only one on your list I still do consistently is use a treestand. The reason for that is because I hunt in the Blue Ridge Mountains where the only thing predictable about the wind is that it will be fickle and swirl, eddy and change direction about every thirty minutes. When I can't climb anymore I'll just stay on the ground and spook 'em I guess.
BAK, I understand what you are saying, I've thought about it many times myself! I have come to the conclusion than we are all hunters and small in numbers, wether we use an AR 15 or and atlal we are in this together. I don't use a compound or a cross bow but it's not my choice of what others use. I know I have to ask myself when I see a new gadget that I think I need, do I really need this, will it take away from my enjoyment of the hunt? I do know as I get older the kill is not as important as the journey!
Quote from: Sam McMichael on July 04, 2018, 03:48:38 PM
when I was a kid, prior to the advent of the compound bows, it was simply archery and a bow was simply a bow. After the prominence of compounds was established, I started hearing non compound bows referred to as "traditional" bows. This difference in bow technology is what seems to have started the whole "traditional" archery concept. That distinction is both my starting point and my end point in the discussion of what is traditional archery. True, I shoot only wooden arrows now, because they just seem to fit well with my Hill style long bow. Arguing that this is more traditional or that is less traditional may start many debates but will change no minds. Why bother?
Yep, what he said... :thumbsup:
It never makes sense to me why folks continuously want to stir this pot. Do what makes you have fun and be happy, and let the next guy do the same.
And yes, I use a lot of the stuff you mentioned, and I am still a traditional bowhunter because I hunt with a longbow, or recurve, or selfbow. Like stated above, the term traditional has nothing to do with tradition. It is only a term that was coined by someone after the invention of the compound to distinguish us from them.
Bisch
Can't be a traditional bow really if it was made yesterday but traditional archery it is even if your equipment wasn't made by sitting Bull. Call it a replica of a traditional bow, it's still traditional archery imo until you start adding things like sights, stabilizers, rests. That's only my opinion and who really cares.
i saw a quote somewhere that went something like this "I am not traditional I am just a guy that shoots a recurve bow". That pretty much sums it up for me except I shoot a LB as well. Some will say it's a way of life, some say equipment or a combination of both. I think "Traditional " means what you want it to mean.
I shoot what if fun for me. If it's a recurve in the morning and longbow in the evening. I chose on what I feel like. I care not about labels or what others think. I run cameras religiously cause it's fun for me. If a time comes when it takes away from my personal satisfaction I will stop. Until then I'm in pursuit of happiness wether that makes me traditional, modern or wanna be I don't give a hoot. I love it. :archer2:
I think public land should be leave no trace use, what you take in you take out. After that as long as hunters are considerate legal and safe, I don't care. Three things I do know, squirrels, mice and rats love popcorn and corn syrup sodas feed ants and diet sodas kill ants.
I love to watch an arrow fly. No pretending there. Its a very special thing and feeling that I do not attempt to tear apart or nalyze too deeply. It seems to me over the years that the more traditional I get the more I enjoy the entire process. I do build some fancy , modern glass and wood bows of every design but my main satisfaction is crafting a great yew or sage bow, cutting and making my own arrows and heads and st rings and then successfuly using them.
I make no judgments of what others do or their motivation. They all hunt the same woods and same animals , smell the same smells and see the same beauty. We are all brothers of the bow in those respects and we all travel the same paths in different ways, levels and goals.
God bless, Steve
If I was to be true traditional in my culture it would be a sort of double recurve (as the javaman thanjavur bow) or a nock less bamboo bow with a bamboo "bowstring" ( in essence a piece of split bamboo tied to the bow with hemp).
That said I have seen all steel recurves in museums and sadly we lost our traditions regarding archery. If I am to follow my traditional texts then I can make a bowstring out of calf gut , not happening in my country today due to dilution of tradition and arbitrary takes on morality.
So I use what I can , if carbon and micarta give me better heat and water tolerance - I will take it. If a carbon tunes with whatever I can get fabricated or imported I will take that too.
I am still to become a bowhunter , but am working towards that slowly and surely. Had tradition been alive I would have already been one ,way back!
To draw a hard and specific line on equipment, hunting techniques, bow type, etc. is going to do nothing but divide us as bowhunters.
There are some issues that I find objectionable. For me it is the guys that insist on shooting a bow draw weight as light as possible rather than work on shooting a heavier bow. Same for baiting.
But so long as they remain legal..... then my objections remain only a matter of my own personal choices.
I shoot an osage selfbow but don't consider myself a primitive shooter or hunter, to me a trad shooter is someone who doesn't shoot wheels, sights or a release, everything else fits the bill for me to be a trad shooter.
DISCLAIMER: I did not read every post so this may have evolved way past the original discussion. But here is my take, the definition of "traditional" doesn't put a specific time frame on it so wheelie bows can be considered traditional by some people today simply based on the amount of time they have been around.
tra·di·tion·al
trəˈdiSH(ə)n(ə)l/Submit
adjective
existing in or as part of a tradition; long-established.
"the traditional festivities of the church year"
synonyms: long-established, customary, time-honored, established, classic, accustomed, standard, regular, normal, conventional, usual, orthodox, habitual, set, fixed, routine, ritual; More
produced, done, or used in accordance with tradition.
"a traditional fish soup"
habitually done, used, or found.
"the traditional drinks in the clubhouse"
I shoot a longbow because I like it. I'm going to ditch my carbon arrows and go to wood in November. Some days I'm in a tree sometimes I'm on the ground. I dont watch hunting shows nor will I ever put a buck on a buck pole. I feel what I do in the woods is between me and the deer or elk. I don't use any electronics for archery or golf by my own choosing. I want the best of my opponent and I want to do the same for him. My bird dog doesn't like guys that don't shoot O/U or SxS. I'm getting older a 20 or 28 ga auto is starting to look tempting.
I started shooting a bow in the very early 70's. before compounds. Some used elevated rests, sights and rope releases. Can't remember about stabilizers. We used rubber silencers shaped in a triangle. Didn't see any "traditional" silencers, you know, beaver, wool puff or spider legs till a lot later on. I do remember seeing the cover of a Bow and Arrow magazine that had a pic of this guy shooting a recurve with an overdraw.
Myself, I don't care what you shoot as long as it's legal. None of my business. I would expect the same of the next fella.
I pretend I can shoot good most of the time :biglaugh:
Quote from: Alexander Traditional on July 05, 2018, 01:48:26 PM
I pretend I can shoot good most of the time :biglaugh:
^^^ This! :laughing:
Thank You Sam McMichael. Spot on sir !
I don't know. :dunno:
Unless you're shooting a selfbow and wood arrows that have self nocks etc etc, you're just trying to pick the fly poop out of the pepper! I use the best equipment I can that does the job I need it to do!
I use glass backed bows,no carbon or modern heads,a back quiver holds my arrows,a leather glove is on my shooting hand,no sight or rest on my bows,and I hunt from the ground. I don't own a GPS, just a compass and a map. Don't use an ATV because they have no place in the woods I use to hunt.
It's funny that sights keep showing up as trad disqualifying even though that is historically used on laminated recurves.
I think many confuse an organization's competitive category of "trad" with the original meaning. It was introduced to differentiate single string archery from the then new compound bow. Many too, try to disqualify fiberglass or carbon fiber lamination from being trad. Was Howard or Fred Bear, or Ben Pearson not in the "trad" era?? They were some of the first to introduce and use (and embrace) fiberglass in bow construction when it became available after WW2. Many too, disqualify sights and various mechanical releases (as opposed to fingers) but they have all been around for over 100 years now. Again, I think a confusion of competitive shooting categories and NOT whether or not they have been used for a long time.
Labels can be convenient but misleading. So WHICH definition of Traditional are you supporting?? For me it is very simple. A bow that is bent by the pulling of a single string that is attached to the tips of the bow limbs is traditional. Doesn't matter if a sight or release of some sort is used. Expand to "primitive," Self, or laminated (with what ever materials) BUT keep the single string concept and in my mind you are "traditional."
Again, though, NOT to be confused with rather arbitrary shooting categories that various organizations use to set up (relatively) fair competition.
Arne
Quote from: BAK on July 04, 2018, 01:09:45 PM
It just struck me this morning that as much as we want to tell everyone we are "traditional " hunters, most of us are likely just pretending.
We shoot the highest tech composite bows, many carved out by CNC machines;
Our arrows are the highest tech, computer balanced, carbon fiber, nearly indestructible shafts;
Many of the broadheads are costing crazy high prices and they are machined from high tech alloy steel;
Many are carrying the most expensive high tech optics and laser range finders they can find;
Most are hunting out of tree stands that have taken a team of engineers to design;
Many are putting out high tech cameras to pattern our quarry, some even sending pictures back to our computers to tell us all the details; There is no doubt what so ever some guys are using the latest drone technology to do the same thing.
Those with enough money are buying tractors and machinery to plant tasty crops to ensure we'll maximize the likelihood the biggest and best deer will grow and frequent our little bit of heaven;
What say you? :campfire:
Im shooting Bear Razor heads on three river pre finished arrows. Im using a Bear Montana. This is as tradtional as you get as my bow and arrows mirror that of the founders of modern archery. I also have a 1-63 inch ball sling plains rifle. IMO its very traditional. I also have a pimped out Bow madness with carbon arrows and rage head fiber optic sights and a scott release. Cant forget my REM CDL in 270 WIN topped with a 3x9 nikon. Im a hunter and choose what and how I want to hunt every hunt. I practice with all till I am proficient. This yr Its gonna be the long bow and My plains rifle. Until I go to TX then itll be the long bow and rem CDL Hunt how you like division is for Democrats!!!!!
MOE BOW GOT IT !!!!
Alright first off, hello all, first time posting ever. Been lurking for years finally joined. As to the topic, I bowhunt. I shoot longbows and recurve. I fly fish for blue hills, and a couple times I used live bait on my fly rod, oh the horror! This whole argument is pointless, we all are "trad" or we wouldn't belong to this amazing brotherhood of the bow. I haven't read one single post, unless I missed it, of anyone claiming to be a PURIST, nothing wrong with a purist, I admire that level of dedication. I used to be an avid muzzle loader guy, I would stay home if part of my get up wasn't right, or complete, I sucked the fun right out of it, lost a lot of time in the woods. So don't suck the fun out of it, do what makes you happy and let the purists be purists and the pretenders be pretenders. I love what I do and it only matters to me.
:clapper:
:deadhorse: :deadhorse: :deadhorse:
I wear non traditional underpants and drive a vehicle with foreign gasoline to my hunting areas. I bought my broadheads online and mounted them with big Jim's glue ( best glue running)
Yep, I'm a poser and don't care.
BAK, I understand where you're coming from. It is just a thought, something to ponder and discuss. IMO, it is like "Classic Rock." The definition may change to include newer stuff every decade or so. What was classic rock yesterday, is now called oldies
No labels, only fun and self satisfaction here.
I'm primitive as I use a selfbow with a fast flight stringer :goldtooth:
Quote from: BAK on July 04, 2018, 01:09:45 PM
It just struck me this morning that as much as we want to tell everyone we are "traditional " hunters, most of us are likely just pretending.
We shoot the highest tech composite bows, many carved out by CNC machines;
Our arrows are the highest tech, computer balanced, carbon fiber, nearly indestructible shafts;
Many of the broadheads are costing crazy high prices and they are machined from high tech alloy steel;
Many are carrying the most expensive high tech optics and laser range finders they can find;
Most are hunting out of tree stands that have taken a team of engineers to design;
Many are putting out high tech cameras to pattern our quarry, some even sending pictures back to our computers to tell us all the details; There is no doubt what so ever some guys are using the latest drone technology to do the same thing.
Those with enough money are buying tractors and machinery to plant tasty crops to ensure we'll maximize the likelihood the biggest and best deer will grow and frequent our little bit of heaven;
What say you? :campfire:
My recurves I have hunted with in the last 15 years were made in the 1960's (a couple from the 1950's). I only shoot wood arrow shafts I fletch up myself. My broadheads were from a batch manufactured in 1960 that Larry Whiffen Jr. found in his garage from his Dad's shop.
I use a treestand - but sometimes not.
In fact, I travel on foot to my hunting site from my home. No vehicles. I chose my current home because of the land (20 acres, 17 wooded) and only hunt that . . . and usually come up with a whitetail buck. That makes me very happy. I do not plant feed crops, put out minerals or attractants. I don't even use scent masks or buck scents/lures. Though I do brush-hog some paths I keep down for grouse hunting and for general access. The deer like the new growth along them.
But for me the "treat" is to hunt with the gear I drooled over as a kid on my own property. Your motivations may vary.
Really - it's all good. It all comes down to a shot opportunity, a shot placement, and a sharp broadhead.
Why on earth would it matter? If I shoot my self bow and wood arrows while dressed in a loin cloth wouldn't I be pretending to be something I'm not?
Whip, ya have any pictures of you shooting while wearing your loin cloth?
Well on second thought.
Never Mind.
LOL
:laughing:
Quote from: Whip on July 06, 2018, 08:04:14 AM
Why on earth would it matter? If I shoot my self bow and wood arrows while dressed in a loin cloth wouldn't I be pretending to be something I'm not?
:laughing: :laughing: :laughing:
most of us realized from the get-go this was a "cabin fever" thread, no more or less.
say good night gracie! :wavey: :campfire: