I had a customer ask about actual performance differences between FF and Dacron strings. He was wondering if a Dacron string with no silencers would be close in performance to a FF string with silencers. There's only one way to answer that....test them!
First up: 18 strand Rampage string with a single set of whiskers. 3 shot average 178 fps
Next: 14 strand B50 with the same size whiskers. 3 shot average 164 fps
Finally: 14 strands B50 with no silencers. 3 shot average 168 fps
All were set at my 27" draw length with clicker installed, same brace height.
I had mentioned on a similar thread several months ago that I would expect 10 fps difference. Some quys questioned that. Here is the proof. :archer:
Allen, my results led me to the same conclusion. i also get a softer shot with FF.
14 fps is nothing to sneeze at. How about sound at the shot? :thumbsup:
That's a bigger difference than I thought. I had in mind there would be about 5 fps difference between FF and Dacron. I'm not familiar with Rampage. Do you think it is typical of FF strings?
Quote from: mec lineman on June 24, 2018, 12:02:36 PM
Allen, my results led me to the same conclusion. i also get a softer shot with FF.
Same here Craig/ I much prefer the shot feel of a FF string.
Quote from: kennym on June 24, 2018, 12:45:50 PM
14 fps is nothing to sneeze at. How about sound at the shot? :thumbsup:
Kenny, the B50 string with whiskers was crazy quiet....but from the first shot, I could tell it was much slower.....ever before shooting through the chrono. B50 without whiskers was still plenty quiet, but the string vibration seemed to go on for 5 seconds after the shot.
Quote from: McDave on June 24, 2018, 01:03:16 PM
That's a bigger difference than I thought. I had in mind there would be about 5 fps difference between FF and Dacron. I'm not familiar with Rampage. Do you think it is typical of FF strings?
Dave, Rampage is Brownell's new, updated version of Fury. It is very thin, so 18 strands of Rampage is comparable in dia. to approx. 8 strands of D97 (or similar). It makes for a very high performance, yet stable string. I'm am highly impressed with it!
So what is your recommendation for say a 50# bow? 18 strands work?
Quote from: kennym on June 24, 2018, 04:04:59 PM
So what is your recommendation for say a 50# bow? 18 strands work?
Yep, I don't like to go below 18 strands of Rampage. I build most of mine with 22 strands. Zero performance difference at all between the two.
Thanks for the data Allen.
Yep. And depending on the bow, that 10-12 fps difference equates to about 3-5# of draw weight. I shot dacron for a long time and didn't want to believe the benefits of low stretch strings, but i finally tried them a few years ago, and there's no going back. In addition to the substantial increase in performance, they also make the bow much more pleasant to shoot. Mine tend to make a somewhat higher pitched sound than dacron, but i can quiet them to my satisfaction, maybe not as much as dacron, but enough.
Thanks Allen!
Good test - thanks.
What was the draw weight of the test bow? Maybe you mentioned it but I don't see it.
Thanks for the test I prefer the FF type strings also.
Quote from: monterey on June 24, 2018, 08:17:25 PM
What was the draw weight of the test bow? Maybe you mentioned it but I don't see it.
I was shooting my Trad Tech Lobo 42@27 with 380 grain arrows
Thanks Allen for your time!
Allen, How does the Rampage compare to any of the BCY products? Been shooting the X-99, I like it but I always like trying new stuff.
Bob
:dunno:
Rampage is Brownell's version of BCY's Mercury. SK90 Dyneema was discontinued by DSM, so materials that used SK90 will go away once existing supplies are exhausted...that includes Fury, 8190, and BCY-X. SK90 was replaced with SK99...a little smaller, a little more dense, a bit more durable. Mercury and Rampage are 100% HMPE/UHMWPE, X-99 is 80% SK99 and 20% Vectran. X-99 is very comparable to BCY-X. Big difference with the Vectran is better stability in higher temps, and materials with Vectran seem to be quieter (to me--I haven't done any tests). 100% Dyneema materials seem to have a slight edge with speed and durability. Good 'ol 8125 is still the benchmark for 100% Dyneema materials. Still the choice of Olympians and many top target archers.
Quote from: Bob Morrison on June 25, 2018, 09:31:35 AM
Allen, How does the Rampage compare to any of the BCY products? Been shooting the X-99, I like it but I always like trying new stuff.
Bob
I think Chad pretty much answered your question. To each his own.....I tend to prefer non blended material, such as Rampage and Fury. I get a little better performance, and the shot feels softer to me. They all make nice strings though.
Am I the only one that still uses D-97? I've built a 16 strand string for all of my Fast Flight compatible bows and have been very happy with 2 Black Widow spider silencers. I guess when Rampage is considered outdated I'll get a few spool and give it a shot. :goldtooth:
Quote from: BWallace10327 on June 26, 2018, 12:19:22 AM
Am I the only one that still uses D-97? I've built a 16 strand string for all of my Fast Flight compatible bows and have been very happy with 2 Black Widow spider silencers. I guess when Rampage is considered outdated I'll get a few spool and give it a shot. :goldtooth:
I still build quite a few strings from D97. One of the most detail oriented shooters that I know still prefers it.
How quiet was the rampage.?? How about the B-50.??
Not that long ago Chad (LBR) posted what I recollect were some of his tests with various low stretch materials. The gist of it was there was't much difference among them. I've found D-97 satisfactory for a while now and don't plan to change any time soon.
Seems the recent trend is the development of skinnier strands, which generally requires more strands in the string. I'd prefer to go the other way, thicker strands that would require fewer strands in the string. May not make as "round" a string, but easier to work with IMO. Might even obviate the need for padding the loops for certain bows.
That's the beauty of this game....we all don't have to do the same thing. :thumbsup:
Quote from: jackdaw on June 26, 2018, 08:34:37 AM
How quiet was the rampage.?? How about the B-50.??
I think Rampage is just as quiet as any other FF material. I have built a ton of them for customers this year. B50 on my bow was very quiet, especially with whiskers on it. When I took the whiskers off, it seemed like the string vibrated for 5 seconds after the shot...still fairly quiet though.
For myself, making a B50 string for that test bow it would have been ten strands.
I have enjoyed visibly observing actual increases in speed.. if my site window increases within my piint- on range, I take full advantage by increasing shaft weight such as to maintain the engrained sight window.
I agree Monterey
On a different note...I'd use "FF" type materials if they were 10 fps slower than Dacron. I can't shoot the difference in 10 fps, much less see it. I CAN tell a difference in the way a bow feels, especially at release. I can tell the difference in consistency, durability, and stability. A gain of a few fps isn't one of the big benefits, it's just icing on the cake (IMO).
A dacron string needs a few hundreds shots and some continuous brace height adjustment to be settled in. If you twisted the string and made the chrono soon after that can explain such a big difference.
Five years ago I purchased a Toelke recurve that came with a stock endless Dacron string I shot it for several weeks and then put a D10 10 strands Flemish string from a famous string maker. I chronoed the bow with same arrow and the 2 differents strings on same day shooting session under the prochrono light kit ( the D10 had a "break in time as well), both strings set for same BH. I surprisingly found only 5 fps speed advantage with the D10.
Thanks for the input guys. I know that technically the B50 string could have had a few less strands, but so could the Rampage string. Just tested what I normally build.
I'm with Chad, I would still shoot a FF string, even if there was no performance advantage. I was simply trying to answer a customer's question when I did this test.
My better longbows shoot very nice with B50 strings, but there is no arguing the durability and stability advantages of Chad's BCY strings.
I cant argue the performance increase in FF strings over B50. But I don't own a chrono and am not chasing FPS when shooting. Nothing wrong with speed but I prefer silence when looking for a hunting string. I also like that I can use Dacron on any bow from an old bear Kodiak to something fresh from a bowyer without having to use different materials. I've never messed with FF strings so I'm used to the shock of Dacron. Didn't even know there was any until reading this! The vast selection of FF string materials is too confusing for me! Shoot what you like I say, and ill do the same, tinkering with my string as it continues stretching out!!
I have been making strings since the early 90's but don't sell them just like helping those in need that I know. I have shot bows with Fast flight and my favorite Dacron is just plain B-50 by Brownell.
I made a nice string stretcher about 4 years ago that I use to pre stretch all my strings so they don't creep hardly at all.I also use the jig for putting on home made string puffs and wrapping wool down the "Y" section of the string loops "If" need be .
The B-50 may be a bit slower but how much doesn't bother me cause I try to keep my shots 15 to 20 yards max.
I don't get in "ANY" debates about what a person likes in a string but I know many folks in my parts still love Dacron B-50 and it's been around for quite some time.
Bows are built different and some perform better with F.F. materials but I get more comments about how quiet my bows are and I only have a few with F.F. on them and that is 450+ .
I really like how Brownell has come out with some really nice color choice's .
Guess I'm old school but I am a fan of B-50 and been using it for years. :archer2:
If felt that way for a long time as well Keefer, many people on here would agree there is nothing wrong with doing stuff the old fashioned way. I prefer working with D97 instead of b50 or b55, I seems to stick together better while twisting and I can make a nicer string with smaller and fewer tag ends sticking out. I haven't worked with any other materials so I cannot comment on that aspect.
String material is like buying hunting boots,if one kind was best for everybody only one company would be in business.I feel that low stretch strings may amplify mistakes in shooting form or release,my hunting bows are made for the newer materials but I still like the old tried and proven B-50.Nothing against the other materials as long as they are on somebody elses bow.To each his own and just enjoy shooting your bow!
Terry
Different bows will see varied results when comparing strings. The mass weight of the limb can nullify the lower weight advantages of the FF strings, just like a larger limbed longbow will not show as wide a difference when comparing a heavier arrow versus a lighter arrow, because of the energy/mass ratio. The heavy action longbows may not shoot much faster, but they are generally the ones that benefit the most from the FF string. Not all B 50 strings are created equal, too many twists, sloppy loops, wax weight, one in the break in process, it all makes a difference. I found years ago that if I made a B 50 with very hard twists in the loops and minimum twists to adjust for length in the finished string, showed a measurable advantage in arrow speed on my faster longbows, like my Schulz. I would bet a FF string with many more twists will not show as much variation.
Tons of variables in how the string is made, even more opinions...but sorting out string materials isn't really as complicated as it may seem.
Currently there are only 3 basic types of string materials (not counting primitive materials like silk, linen, sinew, hide, plant fibers, etc.).
#1. Polyester. Most everyone knows it as "dacron". B-55 or B-50. Safe for any bow, has the most stretch, the most creep, the least duribility, transfers the most shock. Comes in different grades. B-55 is a slightly higher grade than B-50.
#2. HMPE, UHMWPE. High Modulus Polyethylene or Ultra High Molecular Weight Polyethylene. Most common brand names, at least in the bow string industry, are Dyneema and Spectra. Comes in different grades or deniers. Original Fast Flight is 652 Spectra. Covers materials like Dynaflight '97, 8125, Mercury.
#3. HMPE/LCP blends. LCP is Liquid Crystal Polymer. The most common brand name in bowstring is Vectran. The characteristic that makes it desireable in a bow string is it's stability and resistance to changes with temperature extremes, especially heat. 452X has been the most popular on the other side of the sport for many years, and continues to be the benchmark, but other options are 450+, BCY-X (to be discontinued probably by the end of the year), and X-99.
Everyone has their preferances, opinions, and experiences. All the Olympic archers (actual Olympians...I say that because I've seen at least two "gurus" try to pass off "Olympic style" as actual Olympic archers) I know of (several) shoot 8125, as do many top archers. A few others I know that have been known to shoot pretty well (Rod Jenkins, Jason Westbrock, Denny Sturgis Jr.) do quite well with BCY-X. I'm thinking John Demmer is shooting BCY-X, but can't rememeber for sure. Of course it's the string material that make these guys such great shots! :thumbsup: :archer2:
I've had an obsession with strings and string materials for about 25 years now. The more I learn, the more I discover that there's tons more to learn. When I think I have something figured out it just leads to more questions, more experimenting, more time spent talking to archers and coaches and string makers, etc.
One thing is for sure. The string material is only one part of the equation. A good string can be made with the worst material, and a lousy string can be made with the best. Then you have to do your part with tuning, your release, silencer placement, etc. etc. etc.
Someone could spend literally years with a hooter shooter and chrony and test countless draw lengths, arrow weights, bow styles, etc. etc. etc and compile a book...and it's still not going to cover everything.
We do know that the "FF" type materials are more durable, more stable, more consistent. How much? Depends. That's my story and I'm sticking to it.
One thing i iike about Chadwards strings is when I say 5/16" Mercury nock, they work just right for 5/16" Mercury nocks. Silly thing, but nock fit is a big deal to me.