My name is Clay and I suffer from heavy bow syndrome. Seems every time I get a new bow and can comfortably shoot it for hours on end. It triggers me to yet want another bow with a heavier pull. At first this was not an issue, cheap low poundage bows were readily available to scratch my itch. However once you eclipse the 60# mark things start getting pricey atleast for this country boy. I'm all out of excuses for the wife on why I need a new bow, so I have one purchase left and I'm cutt off.
I'm well aware of the fact a 45# bow will kill anything in North America and its accuracy that kills now heavy bows. With that said, I like to shoot a heavy arrow and I like to shoot it fast. The heavier I move up the better trajectory I get and for my aiming style that translates to more accurate. I'm currently pulling 72# and it's a real pleasure to shoot and I have no complaints. Well, other than the fact it's painful to look at and a tad longer than I prefer. I bought it used from a man who must have had a spray paint fetish.
My question is if you could only have one last bow (atleast for awhile) what weight would you feel gives you the best bang for your buck? It will also be my go to for everything from hunting, roaving, targets etc... I'm happy with the 72# but leaning toward a 75+. Got my eye on those mountain monarchs I keep seeing pics of and think that's what I'm gonna go with.
I like to stay around 60lbs . 55 to 60 . Anything less, and my flawed release becomes apparent.
I have one that's so heavy I can't draw it but half way. Not sure what the top end weight is at 28". I'd gladly send it on to a new home! :)
I used to shoot a 78# longbow with no problems. I really liked it, but over time, I had to drop back in weight. Now, I shoot 53# bows. I have had injuries, arthritis, and age issues that have caused me to lower the poundage I can handle. 53# is the weight now that I would select for any new bow. 60# is all right, but not quite as comfortable as the lighter bows.
My suggestion would be to go with a long [from your standpoint] 65# high performance bow. You can get good speed, a smooth draw, and keep shooting it longer so the investment in a new bow is spred out over time. I don't know what you mean by heavy arrows, I shoot 650 gr. arrows out of my hunting setups. With the hottest of my longbows I get 180. There are many heavy bows for sale used. We all age out of heavy draw weight. Put your money in something to keep for a while. As a bonus your will shoot the 65# bow better than the heavier ones. I used to hunt with my 72# Robertson. Now all my hunting setups are in the 60# range. Everyone has their favorites, among the bows that I own, the fastest are Border, Addcock, Saluki, Big Foot, and 21st Century. That said the difference is 12 fps. from fastest to slowest.
MAP
Jack Howard did a lot of research on bow weight / velocity/ trajectory , and found that upper 50's was the point of diminishing returns. I tend to agree, so that would be my recommendation, especially with today's high performance limbs and strings. Just no need to work harder for no net gain. JMO.
I shoot 50 to 53# when I was young I shot up to 80#s and I wish I hadn't, I'm now suffering from it in my neck and shoulder ,also shooting a longbow that had just a little hand shock has wrecked my elbow . You would be wise to go down in weight not up if you want to shoot when you get old and I think it is more fun !
My heaviest is 60,and I have a number of 55 pounders. I don't know if these are considered heavy bows,but I enjoy shooting them more than my 45 pounders. It's much easier to get a good release for me.
I'm trying to handle this delicately as possible I don't want to get broadside again..... but I'd like to know since the upper 50s let's say 57 lb shooting 10 grains per pound so that would be a 570 grain Arrow let's say running at 180 feet per second ......
and now let's take a 70 lb bow and a 700 Grain Arrow running 180...
Could someone please explain to me how there's NO net gain?
Shoot the heaviest bow that you shoot accuractly. If that is 75+ lbs. shoot it and be happy about it. I would shoot 80 lbs. if I could shoot it accurately. I can not though so I shoot bows in the 65-72 lb. range, arrows in the 10 gr. per lb. I say go for it. Also after a while you should have enough bows hanging around the house where the wife doesn't notice one getting snuck in every now and then. :bigsmyl:
Quote from: Terry Green on May 13, 2018, 08:17:11 PM
I'm trying to handle this delicately as possible I don't want to get broadside again..... but I'd like to know since the upper 50s let's say 57 lb shooting 10 grains per pound so that would be a 570 grain Arrow let's say running at 180 feet per second ......
and now let's take a 70 lb bow and a 700 Grain Arrow running 180...
Could someone please explain to me how there's NO net gain?
Even I can do that math. There's a difference.
Like Terry, I want to be sure I don't put my foot right in my mouth here. No need offending any of my brothers. Shoot what makes you smile.
I shot 70-75#+ bows all through my youth with no injury associated with shooting them. I'd often compete in 3D shoots and won my share. I could shoot them all day as some guys say. Of course on a 3D course it's shoot an arrow, fiddle with scoring, pulling and moving to the next target where you wait for the next group to finish before shooting your next arrow, then repeat the process. I don't find that taxing at all.
Now that I'm 71 I miss those weight bows, but I still shoot sub 60# bows with control and accuracy. There are many pluses to shooting "heavy" when hunting. Mainly penetration because all of our shots are not always perfectly placed by way of target movement or other factors. Even a perfectly placed arrow in a deer that reacts to the shot can be negatively affected by that movement. So it's not just about how deep in the ground on the other side the arrow sticks.
I prefer large multi blade broadheads for maximum carnage while still getting pass through performance. The heavier weights have always given me that.
There will always be those who don't want you to shoot those heavy weights for whatever reason, but I say if you can do i t and it makes you happy then knock yourself out buddy.
I'm not really sure there is any need to shoot 80#, but that is totally your decision.
Anything close to what you are looking at in a skilled set of hands will leave a bloody arra skickin in the ground! What more can a bow hunter want? If I could effectively handle 70+ Lbs. you bet I would. I love a hard hittin stick. Mountain Monarch is a sweet choice. Good huntin :thumbsup:
I am shooting 70 pounds and I really like it. I have a 66 pounder on order so the 64-70 rage i what i am comfortable with right now.
First of all Lakerat, welcome! Nice to see you here.
Now, to try to answer your question.
I'm 53 and I've been shooting a 75# Blackwidow longbow for some years now. Been using nothing under 800-850 grain wooden arrows all that time too.
Todays heavy bows simply shoot heavier arrows faster and flatter. I like what Charlie said re big broadheads too.
Trajectory wise, at hunting ranges I've never found heavy arrows an issue. That's where your stumping sessions teaches you what's what. Just yesterday I was having a play at a tad over 50 yards. A couple of shots to work out the drop, and it was no real problem to put the next few arrows into or awful close to a gallon milk jug. Not hunting ranges I know, but what I think I'm trying to say is, with proper practice, knowing your arrow's trajectory becomes pretty much automatic.
Other than when I was recovering from some shoulder surgery (not bow related) that 75lb Blackwidow has been my most used bow by far. Like you I use it for everything, from targets to stumps, from bunnys to buffalo. I love it and usually shoot it pretty well.
One day, if I'm fortunate enough to have been around as long as some of the awesome older guys here, like Charlie Lamb or Ron LaClair, no doubt I'll not be as strong as I once was, and reducing my bow weight will be necessary. Until then though, I'll keep using my heavy bow.
If you like the heavier weights and can shoot them well, absolutely stick with it. Get your 75lb'er, and you cannot go wrong with a bow from Big Jim.
Best
Lex
I am a firm believer that a guy should shoot the most draw weight he can shoot accurately for hunting. Target shooting is a different game altogether, and it don't matter!
For me, that is 50#. I'd love to hunt with 55 or 60 because I know heavier at the same speed is better, and I can shoot them once or twice pretty good. But after that I go all to heck, and under pressure I go all to heck, so I stick with my 50#, and keep on keeping on.
Bisch
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Quote from: Bisch on May 13, 2018, 11:28:32 PM
I am a firm believer that a guy should shoot the most draw weight he can shoot accurately for hunting. Target shooting is a different game altogether, and it don't matter!
For me, that is 50#. I'd love to hunt with 55 or 60 because I know heavier at the same speed is better, and I can shoot them once or twice pretty good. But after that I go all to heck, and under pressure I go all to heck, so I stick with my 50#, and keep on keeping on.
Bisch
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
What he said and almost the exact poundage. I punch foam and I can see the difference in accuracy with a 50 ish pound bow and a 60 pounder.
Thanks for the welcome Lex, and a thanks to everyone who voiced an opinion. If I was asked a year ago, I would have said we owe it to the game we pursue to shoot as heavy of a bow as we can comfortably handle. My answer has changed since I've been having to continually pony up the dough to chase this philosophy. I enjoy shooting and I'm a very routine person that adds up to I shoot everyday atleast afew. Moving up in weight 5lbs at a time is very costly every couple months I could easily go up. That also cheats myself out of ever developing a real feel for a particular bow. I think I am gonna stay at this 72#, and quit chasing weight. As of now believe I'm gonna put in for a 60" 72# mountain monarch. It will be the first custom I've ever had, atleast made for me.
Quote from: acedoc on May 14, 2018, 12:12:09 AM
Quote from: Bisch on May 13, 2018, 11:28:32 PM
I am a firm believer that a guy should shoot the most draw weight he can shoot accurately for hunting. Target shooting
What he said and almost the exact poundage. I punch foam and I can see the difference in accuracy with a 50 ish pound bow and a 60 pounder.
Yes that's true for some people but for me I'm more accurate with a 60 pound bow then I am a 50 pound bow you have to understand that everyone is not the same. Some people simply shoot better with a heavier bow for several reasons which I and MANY have mentioned a thousand times on here in the last 15 years..... again everyone is not the same.
And what I'm talking about is the difference in performance take a 57 pound bow to Africa and see if they'll let you hunt cape buffalo or elephant or Rhino with it...... :campfire:
Terry, not to derail the thread, but how did you get a quote with half of what I wrote and half of what he wrote in one quote that looks like it was all written by me?????
And I don't think either of us were arguing against a heavy bow. We were both just stating that the 50# area is the heaviest that we can shoot accurately enough to hunt with. I have a friend who has killed water buffalo and Cape buffalo with his recurve. I was with him last summer when he shot the cape. It was one of the coolest things I have ever seen done with a stickbow! I am envious when I see him do these things because I want to also, but don't possess the strength to do it. I have tried to move up a couple times over the years, and it just does not work for me. Now, with this jacked up neck and left arm, I'm pretty much 100% sure it won't ever happen for me!
Bisch
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro
Multiquote?
Terry has a 100 pound warbow in the works or already working Bisch!
We are shooting half that (when i dont short draw).
He and you are both hogslaying machines. I don't know what can be a more better testimonial for shooting the poundage you like.
Peace out.
Laker: I dunno. I think you should be able to indulge your desires without breaking the cookie jar by going to used bows. There are a lot of good used bows out there in weights over 60#, though admittedly, they are a little more scarce above 70#, but because of their weight, they are more difficult to sell and usually priced very reasonable. I think a bow wanted ad would bring a lot of responses. Good luck.
Out of curiosity concerning this heavy bow stuff, I weighed my heavy bows cedar arrows that I still have that are 27" bop with 160 grain head and are 80 to 100 pounds spine. They weigh from 590 grains with 160 points to 648 with 160 grain points. I was a long ways from ten grains per pound shooting the 80 to 96 pound at my draw bows. I only used B50 strings on them, yep, those heavy longbows had a little thump. That would also explain the over 70 yard point on.
Some folks like heavy draw weights for their own sake. I've heard that it helps compensate for a less than ideal release. Some folks use draw weight as a proxy measurement for what they really like, which is actually just speed/arrow performance.
If you're more in the first camp, then you can probably find a heavy-weight (albeit lower efficiency) bow for not much money. An 80# basic longbow or flatbow, perhaps? If you lean more toward the second camp, consider spending a little more on a higher-performance bow at the same weight you have now or even less. There, you get a little extra speed for little to no extra weight.
And if you just want penetration, then consider going up in arrow weight but forgetting about the speed cost. 10 gpp is a good rule of thumb but 13+ is still perfectly reasonable to me. One of my favorite hunting authors, David Petersen, shoots around 13.5 gpp, I think. He uses narrow single-bevels, heavy arrows and short bows to take elk within a max range of 20 yards. At 72#, that puts you at a 972 grain arrow. I'm sure it's a dog of a trajectory at 40+ yards but it probably won't stop at anything except a tree or the ground.
Just some stuff to think about.
Quote from: YosemiteSam on May 14, 2018, 01:36:03 PM
Some folks like heavy draw weights for their own sake. I've heard that it helps compensate for a less than ideal release. Some folks use draw weight as a proxy measurement for what they really like, which is actually just speed/arrow performance.
If you're more in the first camp, then you can probably find a heavy-weight (albeit lower efficiency) bow for not much money. An 80# basic longbow or flatbow, perhaps? If you lean more toward the second camp, consider spending a little more on a higher-performance bow at the same weight you have now or even less. There, you get a little extra speed for little to no extra weight.
And if you just want penetration, then consider going up in arrow weight but forgetting about the speed cost. 10 gpp is a good rule of thumb but 13+ is still perfectly reasonable to me. One of my favorite hunting authors, David Petersen, shoots around 13.5 gpp, I think. He uses narrow single-bevels, heavy arrows and short bows to take elk within a max range of 20 yards. At 72#, that puts you at a 972 grain arrow. I'm sure it's a dog of a trajectory at 40+ yards but it probably won't stop at anything except a tree or the ground.
Just some stuff to think about.
Agree, a 70# bow sure comes off the fingers a lot easier than a 45#. Though when I started with a light bow I never had issues but if I pick one up now I just can't get my hand off the string without forcing it. I said I like to shoot heavy arrows fast, but I was just refering to avg speeds opposed to overloading a lighter bow casting rainbows. Guessing I send 730 gr in mid to low 170s fps which I'm fine with. The thing about the used bows I come across is they can only handle B50 and I just can't get used to all that stretch. My arrow set up is prob diff than most lol. I get the lightest carbon I can get my hands on, in a .300 spine and cut it off as short as I can. Then I bareshaft and start front loading the heck out of it, and keep loading until it starts looking weak. I really like this set up other then the bow is junk but after hearing everyone's opinion I'm content in the low 70s
Bisch.... new format and stupid cell phone I guess...
I'm still learning myself... :banghead: :banghead: :banghead:
Quote from: Terry Green on May 13, 2018, 08:17:11 PM
I'm trying to handle this delicately as possible I don't want to get broadside again..... but I'd like to know since the upper 50s let's say 57 lb shooting 10 grains per pound so that would be a 570 grain Arrow let's say running at 180 feet per second ......
and now let's take a 70 lb bow and a 700 Grain Arrow running 180...
Could someone please explain to me how there's NO net gain?
Reading this thread jarred my memory about an article I read many years ago. Now I am not saying that this theory is correct, just what the author stated. (And I wish I could find it so that I could quote it better)
The author said that that there was a diminishing gain in the bows he tested (at what point I do not recall) where to get more draw weight the limbs had to be thicker/wider/heavier. This made the limbs slower to recover compared to the lighter limbs. So a 50# bow with a 500 grain arrow might shoot 180 fps, but a 75# bow with a 750 grain arrow may not shoot 180 fps. If the heavier bow shot slower, he thought that he had reached the point of diminishing returns. Don't know if he is correct or not. Seems it would take several bows of the same design (ideally same form) in several different draw weights matched with arrows at the same gpp of each draw weight.
IMO, shoot as much bow as you can accurately.
Okay so what if the 75 lb bow shot a 700 grain Arrow at 180 can you run the numbers on that versus the 57 pound bow?..... can you tell me after running the numbers which Bow wins?????
Not disagreeing Terry.
Would be interesting to see some test results of people comparing the same models but in different weights. surely someone has data like that.
I shot 82# for years. I've pulled over 125#, and did a lot of shooting with a 98@28 (around 120# at my draw). I won a lot of tournaments shooting that 82# bow. Looking back, I would have won a lot more if I'd dropped down in poundage some and I figure my joints would be in better shape. As for killing things...first buck I shot was with a 66# bow. Arrow buried up in the dirt almost 8" after it passed through the deer. The deer didn't ask me how far that arrow went in the dirt , it just died. Even shooting lighter bows can cause wear and tear on your joints. Although I can still pull heavy, I've dropped back a lot because I want my joints to last longer. My shooting sessions also last longer, my fingers don't get sore, and I'm more accurate. If I ever get a chance to hunt something bigger than a whitetail again, I'll shoot heavier for a while until the hunt is over, then I'll drop back to around 55#.
So many factors go into answering the original question. It is different for everyone. If I had no plans to hunt big dangerous game overseas and could only use one bow, it would be one that is in the upper 50#'s at my drawlength, which is between 29.25 and 29.75" depending on the grip. The long draw gives me some extra energy that someone with a shorter drawlength doesn't get, so let's me get away with a relatively lighter bow and still good performance. This should be enough comfortably to account for stand hunting in cold weather with lots of garments on. It also helps to account for getting some minor injury, sickness, muscle fatique, etc..., not to mention longterm decreases in strenth.
With that being said. the hog I shot last week was shot with a bow that is around 65# at my draw length, and since I shot my turkey with a recurve that is 57# at my draw length, I have only been shooting 2 bows. One is 65# and the other was set at 76# at my drawlength. I just tightened the bolts to bring that one up to 81-82#, and have a bow on the way that should be a little over 86# at my drawlength. That will probably seem a little stiff until I get accustomed to it. The only reason that I am shooting the heavier weights is to make the lighter bows easier, to maintain strength, and to be ready in case I get a chance to chase Buffalo again.
Terry, I am not sure what was meant by no gain, unless they were referring to the animal already being dead. The argument of diminishing returns is a poor one that has never been quantified. If you only got 90 percent (or even 80%) performance gain per pound for a similar bow over 70 pounds compared to bow in the 50# range, that would be substantial.
Clay,
Welcome to the world of traditional archery. I applaud you for being able to shoot the weight you mentioned. However, there comes a place where you get very little gain for the energy spent. It's like loading magnum ammunition. I can take a 30-06 180gr bullet, with about 60 grains of powder and get close to 3,000fps. Put the same bullet in a 30-378 case with a 114grs of powder and get just over 3,200fps. I've almost doubled the powder charge, for about an 6% increase in velocity. I suspect your getting close to that " efficiency " with the heavy draw weight. I also suspect, no matter how well you can shoot 75#, you can probably shoot 65 better. Especially, in a hunting environment where temps and clothing becomes a factor. And, it's a lot of wear and tear on you that may surface later on.
But, I understand where you coming from. I ordered my first custom bow in 1994 from Bob Lee, I was shooting 70# compounds like they were nothing. It took lots of persuading from Bob to talk me down to 63#. After all, I was humiliated by the thoughts of a 65# bow. I know now Bob was right. My last custom bow was ordered at a mere 52#. :)
Nevertheless, welcome and good luck with what ever bow you choose.
Mike
Quote from: Recurve7 on May 14, 2018, 11:40:04 PM
Clay,
Welcome to the world of traditional archery. I applaud you for being able to shoot the weight you mentioned. However, there comes a place where you get very little gain for the energy spent. It's like loading magnum ammunition. I can take a 30-06 180gr bullet, with about 60 grains of powder and get close to 3,000fps. Put the same bullet in a 30-378 case with a 114grs of powder and get just over 3,200fps. I've almost doubled the powder charge, for about an 6% increase in velocity. I suspect your getting close to that " efficiency " with the heavy draw weight. I also suspect, no matter how well you can shoot 75#, you can probably shoot 65 better. Especially, in a hunting environment where temps and clothing becomes a factor. And, it's a lot of wear and tear on you that may surface later on.
But, I understand where you coming from. I ordered my first custom bow in 1994 from Bob Lee, I was shooting 70# compounds like they were nothing. It took lots of persuading from Bob to talk me down to 63#. After all, I was humiliated by the thoughts of a 65# bow. I know now Bob was right. My last custom bow was ordered at a mere 52#. :)
Nevertheless, welcome and good luck with what ever bow you choose.
Mike
Mike,
Thanks! That explanation was what I was looking for. While I still see benefits to going heavy if one can handle it I was trying to figure out when the benefits start to peter out. Also wanted to hear from someone who has been there done that and the effects it has on the body. I never wanted to go heavy just so I can say I shoot a heavy bow. Think the good lord gives us all diff gifts, yes I was blessed with the natural ability to handle a lot of weight but I'm also dang near blind in my dominant eye. Funny how that works sometimes. Thanks again and a thank you to everyone else for there input.
Clay
Quote from: Longtoke on May 14, 2018, 05:25:34 PM
Would be interesting to see some test results of people comparing the same models but in different weights. surely someone has data like that.
A useful comparison would require that the bows being compared be identical in every respect except the thickness of the limbs. Same form, same materials, same width same profiles. Everything except the thickness of the limbs. The heavier bow is going to have thicker limbs in order to achieve the weight.
My own guess is that there would not be a point of diminishing returns as far as speed goes. I think there would be a small but measurable increase in speed.
Lots of interesting things have been mentioned, but it still comes down to preference, what performs best for a given hunter. I can't shoot the heavy bows any longer, but if I could, I would still be hunting with that 78 pounder. I totally agree with Terry that a two arrows traveling at the same speed are not equal if one is significantly heavier than the other, as the extra weight translates into penetration.
Again... take your 57 pound bow to Africa along with a friend who has a 90 bow to Africa and both of you shoot a broadside cape buffalo at the same time and see who has diminishing returns.
And really, as I have said before many times. There has been no quantification of the degree of diminishing returns, and examples as with the rifle above greatly overestimate any diminishing returns that are present. I see it mostly in arguments against shooting heavier, more energetic setups. Anyone who knows me knows that I don't care what anyone else shoots, and whatever you choose to shoot, adequate accuracy under hunting conditions is paramount. I just don't like misinformation being diseminated.
I had heavy bows and heavy arrows way back. I stuffed Microflites. I wanted to shoot a moose, but when I had a chance to shoot a moose, it all came to easy and I couldn't do it. Moose and Iowa whitetails are not the same. Since then, I have crossed paths with a number of moose on canoe trips and have no desire to hunt them. I did shoot a domestic buffalo with the heavy arrows, He was a nasty bull that they could never handle, it got crazy when they tried to coral him with the rest of the herd. He broke through fences and got into the corn fields. I got the arrow sticking about 20" out the other side, I was expecting a pass through.
Quote from: Terry Green on May 14, 2018, 03:56:29 PM
Okay so what if the 75 lb bow shot a 700 grain Arrow at 180 can you run the numbers on that versus the 57 pound bow?..... can you tell me after running the numbers which Bow wins?????
The situation determines if it matters. If you are hunting a Cape Buffalo, you definitely want to shoot a heavy setup...most of us won't get to hunt game like that though. Speaking with Dr. Ed Ashby some years ago, he assured me that my 66@30.5 longbow would be plenty with the right arrow. Unfortunately I never got to test it.
If you are hunting whitetails, as I noted before the deer couldn't care less how far the arrow buries into the ground after it passes through the lungs. If you shoot a lot over a period of several years; and/or have other injuries (i.e., torn rotator), your joints will care. You can shoot longer sessions more comfortably, if that matters, with less weight. That's a lesson I learned the first time I shot a field round with 82# in 90+ degrees.
Hermon, longtoke, I believe that is the article that I'm referring to. Study by Jack Howard back in the 90s. He shot his Gamemaster Jets of various draw weights with matched arrows out of a shooting machine. Have to see if I can dig up the article
Quote from: Lakerat007 on May 13, 2018, 12:22:48 AM
My question is if you could only have one last bow (at least for awhile) what weight would you feel gives you the best bang for your buck?
Already there. With a snappy recurve (Browning or Lee) of 51 to 55# and a 600 to 620 gr arrow.
I can shoot a 60# bow . . . but not as well.
I think what they mean by diminishing returns is that you get more gain in speed out of a bow from say 50 to 57# than you would from 57 to 64 and or on up even though the 64 would be faster it would not be as many feet per second faster as the 50 to 57# gain in weight. You may gain 15 fps in 50 to 57 but only 10 in 57 to 64 .
That is what they mean, but in my experience, that example is far beyond what I have experienced in regards to diminishing returns. It is greatly exaggerated.
And for the same model,length, string, and gpp, I have noticed no more than a couple fps difference using bows in the 70# range when compared to the 50# range. The only bows that I have enough examples to compare are Silvertip Recurves, but I still get expected results with my other heavier bows.
I still would opt for a bow in the mid to upper 50# range if I could only have one bow long term, and had no plans on hunting dangerous game out of the country.
At 64 yrs. old I have come down from my 80# longbow but "my" perfect weight bow happens to the 72# Bear T.D. that I've shot for years. I can shoot it all day and have no ill effects. I'm a little guy but learned to shoot heavy in the 60's and have ever since. The only arrow material I haven't shot is carbon from that bow. I've killed bunches of stuff with aluminum but mainly shoot wood with cedar being my preference. I shoot my deer "upfront" not really worrying about bone and have shot through nearly every animal including bull elk. I know I will get old someday and maybe have to get a set of little limbs for it but for now I prefer this set-up.
I'll be 60 in a few days and my everyday bow is a 65lb whip. I can shoot the same 820 grain arrow out of the whip and from my 75 lb. recurve. I get 165 FPS from the whip and 180 FPS from the recurve. The whip is just so much more fun and relaxing to shoot!! And I'm good with it out to about 40 yards and have no need to shoot any further.
I have both a 51# recurve and a 70# longbow. I shoot the same 650 grains out of both, and I can tell a noticeable difference in speed and penetration between the 2. I have found sessions shooting with the lighter bow to be helpful when working on form. The only challenge I have with the 51# is not being able to get a clean, consistant release, which I know is a form problem, but it is really helpful for feeling coming to fulldraw, and back tension. I find shooting 70# requires me to practice from 10 yards and in to focus on form so on longer shots I dont short draw the bow, which is a nice way to say target panic. From 15 yards in I am money on form, but when I get to 20 plus not so much, with the lighter bow this is not a problem, but my release is.
I have three sets of limbs from the same maker. Weight run from 43# to 54#. When I run each at the same g.p.p., the heavier limbs shoot slightly faster. I have been under the long held impression that once above 60#, this changes. Regardless, if I could shot a 70# recurve with a 700 grain arrow, I would.
I often see threads about light weight draw bows being "enough". Sure, a 40# bow might be enough when all go right, but when things go wrong, I prefer the edge that the heavier bow/arrow provides. And if it is not needed due to the perfect broadside, no bone hit, shot? The arrow just sinks deeper into the dirt on the other side of the deer.
Quote from: pdk25 on May 16, 2018, 10:48:05 AM
That is what they mean, but in my experience, that example is far beyond what I have experienced in regards to diminishing returns. It is greatly exaggerated.
Not only is exaggerated but it is not true. If the bowyer knows his job to go heavier in poundage he will optimize the core to glass ratio in the limbs and not just go in thicker glass nor wider limbs. With the proper built, in modern glass limbed bows in fact there is small but noticeable increase in performance. Take an odd Schaffer silvertip or a BW recurve model or heavily reflexed LB in 50# and compare it with a 70# same model on a hooter shooter with same bowstring with a properly tuned arrow for each bow and you will see usually the 10 gpp at 28" arrow speed increasing by 3 to 5 fps on the heavier bow.
Hey Clay.
My answer to your question is #53. After reading your thread I am concerned for you on a few accounts. I hate to break the bad news to you, but heavy bow syndrome in reality is an addiction that once out of control can be mighty painful, both health wise and on the pocket. Not to mention a pending divorce if the spending aint reeled in real quick. Though the good side to that is you will have more money to spend on those heavier bows.
You're still young. If you want to go the distance, shooting arrows injury free when 60 plus, those higher poundages may seriously prevent you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah,.....I get it.... flatter trajectory.........blah blah blah, blahI I have heard it all before and there are going to be plenty of guys that will disagree with me. Their choice and it's your choice too. Ask around how many archers that are injury free or have reduced their # substantially or had to give the sport away.
Find a compromise mate beteen accuracy and poundage mate. :archer2:
I've seen no empirical evidence that shooting heavy bows automatically results in ANY kind of injury. Here are the names of a few heavy bow shooters that did so over a long career. Howard Hill, Ben Pearson, Fred Bear, Denny Sturgis, myself, and the list goes on. Enjoy yourself. When the bows start getting too heavy you'll know it.
There are always exceptions to a rule. I figure most, if not all of us that have been around for any amount of time know of someone who smoked for 60 years but never got lung cancer; or someone who drank to excess their whole life but never got liver disease. Might even know someone who's hunted from a tree stand without a harness and never fell.
There's a medically documented affliction known as "repetitive motion injury". Doesn't have to be heavy, but heavy can accelerate it and increase the chances of other injuries; i.e. nerve damage to your fingers.
My dad finished concrete for 40 years. In his later years, he had a lot of shoulder pain. He saw one of the best rheumatologists in the nation. The doc said he'd never seen shoulder joints so absolutely worn out. A hand trowel isn't even heavy, but it wore out the shoulder joints of the toughest man I've ever known.
So yes, there is medically documented evidence. Just like there's medically documented evidence that smoking can lead to lung cancer, or drinking to excess can lead to liver failure, or it's dangerous to hunt from a tree stand without a harness. You might get away with it...or you might not. Obviously it's up to the individual if they want to roll the dice.
Don't take my word for it. Ask your M.D.
Repetitive stress injury is known to happen to even typists, they do not pull a whole lot of poundage.
That said I would shoot more poundage if I was accurate enough to shoot it.
On an aside I was reading through "Hunting the hard way" Mr hill mentioned his tackle as a 110 lb split bamboo bow and a 700 grain arrow. I wonder what speed he would be getting out of the setup. As a comparison I shoot an appx 600 grain arrow out of a 55 ish ILF setup.
I can't help but think that our ke figures wouldn't be that far apart.
Ymmv
All of the years that i shot heavy bows, I never hurt my shoulders. I got my chiropractor into bow hunting. He gave a detailed presentation on the how the shoulder works when shooting a bow and how to keep from hurting it. Howard Hill would have agreed with every word. A month back I had a chain saw blade bind and jump the track. No blood, but that little twisting jerk hurt my left shoulder and ended my turkey season.
Agree with Charlie and Pavan. No good evidence that shooting bows over a certain poundage does excessive damage to the shoulders. Heck, you might be better off shooting half as many arrows with a substantially heavier bow from a repetitive stress standpoint.
Quote from: pdk25 on May 23, 2018, 01:27:07 AM
Agree with Charlie and Pavan. No good evidence that shooting bows over a certain poundage does excessive damage to the shoulders. Heck, you might be better off shooting half as many arrows with a substantially heavier bow from a repetitive stress standpoint.
Good archers use their backs anyway, not their shoulders.
I'm shooting 50# in my longbow and recurve and I'm honestly a little hesitant to move up despite being able to easily shoot a hundred arrows without really fatiguing.
At 46, I'm just worried about the long term damage to my shoulder, wrist and elbow of shooting a 70-80# bow. I've talked to too many older archers that are now stuck with 35# because anything higher and they really have issues or not able to shoot at all.
Any "seasoned" guys in their 60-70's not having issues from those heavy bows? I keep toying with ordering heavier limbs for my take-down, but I just worry about the long term...that and since I'm accurately shooting a 590gr arrow 180fps and hitting the vitals out to 30yd, I'm not sure what I'd be gaining.
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My issue is related to arthritis in my string hand. Low 50's bows aren't too bad, but if I shoot my upper 50's bows much, the joints in my string hand hurt for several days. Since I learned to use my back muscles my shoulder never hurts anymore. Luckily I don't have any plans for a Cape Buffalo hunt coming up.
Maddog, there is likely no compelling reason for you to move up, IMO.
Hi Lakerat,
After reading this entire thread again, I feel your question in your original post may have been missed by a few respondents. Maybe even by me too.
Your question was, and I quote:
"My question is if you could only have one last bow (at least for awhile) what weight would you feel gives you the best bang for your buck?"
My personal answer is my 75lb'er.
The reasons why? I simply shoot it far more accurately and much more consistently than any other bow I've ever shot before. I'm comfortable with it under hunting conditions, and it delivers heavy wooden arrows (which I prefer to shoot) more than just adequately. I've got a lot of confidence in MY chosen set- up.
I read and respect all the points offered here. However everyone is different, and everyone is no doubt justified in what THEY think.
All this freely shared infomation here is a grand thing indeed, and I really mean that. Ultimately though, we have to make our own choice on bow weight, based on what we believe is going to be best suited to our own individual requirements and abilities (not to mention our wallets)
Now that I've got that off my chest, did you end up getting on the list for the Mountain Monarch? They are a nice looking bow.
Best
Lex
One? Last? Nope, nuh-uh. Not happening. ;)
Joking aside, as far as personal weight choice I really like 45-50# at 31" these days. I don't hunt anything bigger than whitetail, and could still move up to 55-60# if an opportunity for adventure arose. Messed with heavy stuff for years as a lanky teen. Thankfully I never hurt myself, but never could kill a deer with those things until I dropped back down to 62#.
As a bowyer, the point of diminishing returns is often misunderstood. As mentioned, it really depends on the bow and weight in question- and is often exaggerated. Most of the time, the biggest loss of performance usually just comes from short drawing and collapsing. Those two factors will eat up performance very quickly, making it seem like it's the bow. If the design is altered as necessary, the performance will certainly be there.
Quote from: A Lex on May 25, 2018, 05:30:18 PM
Hi Lakerat,
After reading this entire thread again, I feel your question in your original post may have been missed by a few respondents. Maybe even by me too.
Your question was, and I quote:
"My question is if you could only have one last bow (at least for awhile) what weight would you feel gives you the best bang for your buck?"
My personal answer is my 75lb'er.
The reasons why? I simply shoot it far more accurately and much more consistently than any other bow I've ever shot before. I'm comfortable with it under hunting conditions, and it delivers heavy wooden arrows (which I prefer to shoot) more than just adequately. I've got a lot of confidence in MY chosen set- up.
I read and respect all the points offered here. However everyone is different, and everyone is no doubt justified in what THEY think.
All this freely shared infomation here is a grand thing indeed, and I really mean that. Ultimately though, we have to make our own choice on bow weight, based on what we believe is going to be best suited to our own individual requirements and abilities (not to mention our wallets)
Now that I've got that off my chest, did you end up getting on the list for the Mountain Monarch? They are a nice looking bow.
Best
Lex
Lex, no I haven't got on the list for a Monarch yet. Been so busy lately haven't had much time to do anything. But its definitely the bow I'm gonna get as soon as I run out of excuses for putting it off. Still haven't made up my mind on a pull weight but looks like I have plenty of time to think it through. Picked me up a 70# grizzly the other day off Craigslist plan on doing my hunting with that this fall. Lot of great opinions guys I appreciate it!
There is a dude around named rick barbee who really loves heavy bows. Used to hint with a 95lb now that he notes would rock a 650 grain arrow at 200fps. Which is pretty damn fast and pretty damn heavy. Too heavy for my blood but don't let any body tell you aight not to go heavy if that's your cup of tea. I personally would prefer a take down recurve in that type of weight. You can find quite a few 70lbs and up of the old asblel bighorns if you look around.
I don't understand the comment Pat I really don't know I'm not trying to be argumentative but I do not understand the comment I've greatly exaggerated the numbers the numbers are the numbers are the numbers it's a mathematical formula and a fact you can exaggerate the numbers it is what it is
Terry, either I mis-wrote or you mis-read what I said. What I was saying was essentially that there is no significant decrease in efficiency when going from a lighter bow to a heavier bow, but a significant improvement in performance when going from a lighter bow to a heavier bow.
As far as what I said about what I would chose, under the conditions of not hunting overseas, was based on being easier to draw when cold and bundled up, and to account for not being able to keep up with shooting the heavier bows as I got older.
I was only responding that people that saying that there are diminishing returns for going up in weight are greatly exaggerating that. I think that if they saw what my Shawnee longbow (86# @ 29") was doing with an 800 grain arrow last night, there would be no doubt that there is little dropoff in efficiency. Once again, there are no good studies, one way or another.
I agree totally Pat. I think Terry just misread. He gets in a hurry sometimes. Kinda like his last post. :goldtooth:
Quote from: Charlie Lamb on May 30, 2018, 09:18:30 PM
I agree totally Pat. I think Terry just misread. He gets in a hurry sometimes. Kinda like his last post. :goldtooth:
Wow! That was hard to read! Looks to me like he was talking to his phone, and it wasn't understanding his Gawja drawl!!! :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:
Bisch
Quote from: Charlie Lamb on May 30, 2018, 09:18:30 PM
I agree totally Pat. I think Terry just misread. He gets in a hurry sometimes. Kinda like his last post. :goldtooth:
Yes Charlie exactly I did get in a hurry... I stay in a hurry that's all.... I'm too hectical for my own good at times I know
.. sorry guys.... and definitely sorry you to Pat.... carry on
Quote from: Bisch on May 30, 2018, 11:09:58 PM
Quote from: Charlie Lamb on May 30, 2018, 09:18:30 PM
I agree totally Pat. I think Terry just misread. He gets in a hurry sometimes. Kinda like his last post. :goldtooth:
Wow! That was hard to read! Looks to me like he was talking to his phone, and it wasn't understanding his Gawja drawl!!! :laughing: :laughing: :laughing:
Bisch
yes sir I got to get off this voice command it doesn't work too good with this Southern draw
LOL. No worries on my end.
Hey T! Try using English. :laughing:
Quote from: Charlie Lamb on May 31, 2018, 06:12:04 PM
Hey T! Try using English. :laughing:
And lay off the moonshine :coffee: :bigsmyl:
About deminshing returns. I liked heavy bows. Jack Howard argued with me about his bow if I ordered a heavy one. I figured, okay, so every bow was different. At one point my wife was shooting a 45# Big 5 and I was shooting a 90 pound Big 5. Our draw lengths are the same. The problem i had with cedar arrow is that if I went with a 90 pound shaft with a 160 head, they were too stiff and mine weighed only a bit over 600 grains. I made some 80# Acme cedars 27" bop just like the others and they weighed only 570 grains, but they flew straighter. That is not a very good ratio, but they flew through deer easy enough. My wife's bow had no problems shooting 50# arrows 27" bop that weighed bit over 10 gpp. One day we were shooting for distance and I had shot some of my old target arrows with 4" four fletch out of my wife's bow. To my surprise, they flew perfect and they flew a lot further than my arrows. I weighed them, 6.5 gpp, that was almost identical to my gpp ratio. I would never hunt with a 260 grain arrow, but somewhere somehow, the static hysteresis difference showed up comparing those two. I fixed my light arrow problem by going to fiberglass arrows with a hardwood dowel glued in the lead third of the arrow. The other observation was that the heavy arrows did not lose as much speed as i expected from the heavy bows and the same arrows would fly out of all of my over 75# bows. Some bows pay a higher penalty with heavy arrows than others. I think that ASLs, they are slower to begin with, but they do not lose as much cast with heavier arrows due to the weight of the limb versus stored energy of the less efficient design.
There was another gentleman on here, from NJ I think, that told me that he had done extensive chrono testing between longbows and recurves and found that the performance differences between recurves and longbows changed drastically as you went up in poundage and arrow weights, probably reflecting something similar to what you are describing, Pavan.
It is just something I noticed with my own bows. The harsher reality with the one slightly slower heavy bow, it was by far my best small game and pheasant and thrown targets bow. I grew up in pheasant country, but my first limit on three pheasants was not with a shotgun, it was with that bow. It liked 65-70 net length blunts and 70-75 with 160 broadheads. It had almost no arrow ledge, it needed the leather finger and somehow I could quickly tell where it was pointed. Kramer knew what he was doing.
Somewhere in this story is a point. You'll have to root it out yourself.
In 1969 I was discharged from the United States Marine Corps. Being September I loaded my little Hoyt Pro Hunter into the truck with a batch of arrows and headed for western Wyoming. That little bow (58") hit 83# at my 30 inch draw. I had some good old Acme Cedars that I bought spined for the bow at a 28" draw (probably 70-75). Hell, I didn't know any better and didn't do the math. I know I ordered the shafts matched for spine and weight and trusted they were as ordered. I had no spine tester or scale in those days.
The shafts were 11/32 and I doubt that the finished arrow with Bear Razorhead would have weighed over 600 grains. I didn't give a rip about 8 grains per pound or 10 or anything. All I knew was they shot blazing fast.
I got to Wyoming and went to the local sporting goods store and bought a deer tag... Ahh the good old days. The first afternoon found me in the mountains stalking mulies. As luck would have it my hunting partner spooked a buck that ended up standing looking back at him and 40 yards from me and broadside.
I drew one of those cedars that had a broken bleeder that was held in by the ferrule cement. At the shot the whole world went into slow motion mode. The arrow hit him right through the shoulders and as it turned out penetrated the paddle of both shoulder blades and flew off to strike a boulder ten yards behind him. The bleeder never moved.
It made me a believer in heavy bows and I have many stories from then to now about the superior performance of them... now with better matched arrows of appropriate weight and spine of course.