Due to some issues with my Trinity longbow I am in the market for another bow and have decided to get a Black Widow or a Bob Lee recurve . I already have an ilf and want a bow for which I can get limbs /parts as needed.
What model should I look at - eyeing the PMA 3 in the widow line up as I was told that will be good for my 31 inch draw . Not sure about the Bob Lee models though.
Any inputs will be appreciated along with practical experience both good and bad.
Thanks
Can't go wrong with either one of these fine bows, it just depends on your personal taste. I have had both and the only reason I still don't have the
Bob Lee is one of my boys took a shine to it when he moved out of state. The only plus with the Lee is you can have recurve or longbow limbs on the same riser. I had both and really liked the longbow limbs the best.
Forgot to mention, my son has a 31 1/2" draw length and with the 62" recurve limbs.
I have both and don't intend to sell any of the ones I have. Can't recommend one over the other. For a given bow length, you actually have a longer draw length with a PSA rather than a PMA, because the riser is shorter on a PSA, which means that there has to be longer limbs to get to the same length bow. PSA is my personal favorite Black Widow. My favorite Bob Lee is the Ultimate, but comparing a PSA with an Ultimate is really apples and oranges, unless you get a PSAX, which is a PSA with all the fancy wood, etc. The Ultimate is not really all that fancy of a bow, other than the limb veneers, since the riser is almost 100% phenolic. This makes for a heavier than usual bow, which is good for stability and accurate shooting, but you have to want a heavier than usual recurve, which not everybody does.
A basic Bob Lee compares with a basic PSA greybark or other standard finish and non-exotic wood. Still on the expensive side, but not as much as the fancier models. I think the basic models of Bob Lee and Black Widow shoot as well as the fancier models, and don't make you cry as much if you scratch them up in the woods.
With a 31" draw, I would go with a 64" recurve, although some of the shorter ones will also reach 31" too.
Huge BW and Bob Lee fan, and echo exactly what McDave says.
Impossible to go wrong with a SA, it just plain rocks. I am shooting a 64" MA currently and it is incredibly smooth
I believe that Bob Lee bows with heavier risers ( Ultimate, Heaveyweight) are right there with the widows..
I have a jillion recurves but the SA and the BL Ultimate are the money bows...
Thanks gents!
I have added Dan toelke to the list though his bows are two piece and not as big in volume as the other 2. He has a stand up rep and warranty.
Reasoning- I have had not so great luck with aggressive r/d longbow , being away from conus shipping is a killer. The more stable limb of a longbow especially a Hill style bow may be better.
I've had Widows and Bob Lee. My favorite widows are the PA (one piece). My favorite Bob Lee is the Ultimate, I love the limb connection feature.
There's a world of difference between r/d bows cut past center and a straight limbed Hill style bow not cut past center. I can switch back and forth between r/d longbows and r/d recurves simply by getting used to the different trajectory, but it would take a lot of shooting for me to get used to a Hill. Hills are fine bows, obviously hundreds of people love them, but I have the desire to shoot bows that are similar enough that I can switch back and forth without too much trouble, so I stick with r/d bows cut past center. I also love and own several Toelke bows. They are similar enough to the BW's and Bob Lee's that I can switch back and forth if I want to.
When I meant a Hill type bow I was referring to the toelke whip which is a r/d type bow not a pure hill type. I was alluding more to the limb type deep ,narrow limbs as opposed to wider thinner recurve like limbs.
Even the whip is different enough to require another lot of arrows , more practice for proficiency. I am just leery of limb issues as it really hits my wallet - pay shipping , pay customs and bam - limb issues.
I am hedging my bets looking at the best warranty and best limb profile. Rest even we are st the whims of a superior power and random events.
It's heartening to hear that the riser shape is more recurve like on the toelke whip
I have no problems switching between a Toelke Whip and other r/d bows. There is enough difference between a Toelke Whip and Black Widows/Bob Lees that I am sure you would prefer one or the other, although you could probably shoot both interchangeably. It is a shame that you can't try them, because I'm sure you would have a definite preference for either the Whip or the Black Widows/Bob Lees. Between the Black Widows and the Bob Lees, the differences are more subtle and you would probably be happy with either one, if that were the style of bow you wanted. The Whip is a light mass weight bow, while the Black Widows/Bob Lees are heavier, with the Ultimate being the heaviest of all.
I have owned a Black Widow PCH and currently shoot a Toelke Chinook. Toelke is better in about every way. The Chinook is so quiet compared to the BW. I felt my BW had a bit of hand shock which I did not like and I like how light in the hand the Chinook is.
As I see it, you are looking at two mass produced bows, versus a semi-custom/custom bow. I'm pretty sure Dan will let you demo a bow, and I'd recommend that first. Try out a 2 pc. Whip (get his recommendation on length), and remember the 1 pc. is substantially lighter. That should tell you everything you need to know about the Toelke. If it isn't amazing, you can go back to deciding between the other two brands.
The problem is that he's in India, and getting a bow there and back could be a problem.
I have had both and both are great bows, Toelke does not measure up to to either. Widow pma 64" is the finest shooting of the bunch.
[attachment=1,msg2793571]
This was bare shaft tuning at 40 yds with my Widow pma 64". I have a 30" draw.
I shoot a PSA 45@31 (62") it's a great shooting bow. It does stack a bit the last inch but doesn't bother me to much. I've had that all my life as hunting is the focus in my setup and I prefer to have bows short as possible. If a 64" bow doesn't bother you I'm sure it'd be smoother and stack less. It's very deadly and a joy to shoot. I've never owned a bob Lee for that comparison.
Toelke Whip 2 pc is my favorite bow bar none. 64"
I've owned widows and shot Bob Lee's but I prefer my whip...much quieter for hunting in my opinion.
Your limb problems in the past may not be due as much to design as length. You have a very long draw length. The trend nowadays is for shorter bows, particularly hybrids. A short(er) bow with a long draw length is a recipe for limb failure.
Regardless of which bow you choose, I recommend a long bow for your draw length, i.e. at least 64 inches in a recurve or hybrid, 66 inches being even better, and at least 66 inches in a mild r/d, 68 inches being even better. Good luck.
I agree whole heartedly with you, even though my sky ilf is at 64 inches but that is a whole another beast.
The limbs are xxl and carbon foam.
I am looking at getting a 66 inch longbow (recurve limbs needing more tlc) which is as per Dan Toelke perfect for my draw.
I have owned 2 Toelke whips and they are fantastic bows, and you cant go wrong with them. I don't have any experience with the others, but I am currently shooting a Northern Mist Baraga at 64 inches and I have never shot a bow this well.
Don't know why the Whip keeps coming up - I had one but you didn't ask about it, anyway
I only draw 29" and own a PSA and PMA but never a Bob Lee (almost ordered one once) anyway, I really don't notice a difference between them, both of mine are 60" and sometimes I like the PSA and other times the PMA. I really can't call one smoother than the other even though the PSA limbs would be longer, sometime I think the PMA is smoother, ha!
I do not know the building process on a Bob Lee but got involved in Widows since they are computer cut and wanted to take some Bowyer error out the the equation, got tired of getting bows a little kiddy whompas (don't know how to spell that) that functioned. I do not believe I would buy anything other than a Widow after buying two of them.
I have never heard anything negative about Bob Lee bows and think you would be happy with either.
I have owned other bows but since you only asked about Widow and Lee, that's what I got
Quote from: rraming on April 23, 2018, 05:03:01 PM
Don't know why the Whip keeps coming up
He added the Toelke to his list a little ways down the thread. That's why they get mentioned.
I was clueless, and didn't realize the bow would be going to India, so my advice about trying it out as a demo is a little off base.
Sorry, shows you how attention to detail I am
Thanks guy's!
Paid my deposit to Mr Dan Toelke
You will not be disappointed! Dan is great to talk to, and make sure you get his help on arrow setup, cause he really knows what his bows like. I was having trouble, talked with Dan and he said the arrows I was using were too stiff, and went to a weaker spine and dialed right in.
Thanks a ton. I already did the same . I have a large stock of 340 ICS bowhunters and fitted the bow to the arrows. 55 lb 66 inch whip
Good luck with the Whip....I've always read good things about the bowyer & bow. Congrats
I think the toelke static tip will really shine with your long draw.
Went with the whip just for perceived limb stability, will have a word as my build is still a ways off. How stable is the limb profile on the recurve?
Can you share more info?
Even Dan was saying how the recurve was built for draws more than 30 inches. I could also probably drop some poundage.
Quote from: acedoc on April 27, 2018, 01:47:43 PM
Went with the whip just for perceived limb stability, will have a word as my build is still a ways off. How stable is the limb profile on the recurve?
Can you share more info?
Even Dan was saying how the recurve was built for draws more than 30 inches. I could also probably drop some poundage.
I have the SS, it is the same length from tip to tip when strung as my 62" Whip, and it handles my 33" draw with zero stacking whatsoever. At 6 lbs lighter than my Whip (64 @ 33" vs. 70 @33") it shoots the same arrows with no need to retune. It is very stable, plenty fast, and much more forgiving for me (I was pushing well beyond the boundaries of what a 62" Whip was meant to handle though.
On the other hand, it is a touch heavier than the Whip. The grip is a little fuller as well. On the whole, I don't see myself going back to the Whip, unless Dan can tweak the 62" limbs to handle my long draw without stacking or delaminating.
Well, Your inputs made me change the order from a whip to the SS. Dan was kind enough to allow the order change and confirmed that the recurve limbs are stable enough.
Owned 2 whips. Killer bows! AND, THE QUIETEST.
I have not shot a Bob Lee...but have shot widows, Nice bows.
You wont regret a Toelke!
I've owned a bunch of Toelke's and Widows. The best for me have been the 64" Classic whip and 62" widow PMA. I think the Toelke chinook I owned was faster and quieter than the widow but that widow was the most accurate bow I've owned. I think a lot of it had to do with the mass weight of the bow. Like the whips much more than the widow longbows. I've never shot a Bob Lee but they have a great reputation as well.
When I get off this deployment, I've been given a kitchen pass to get a Black Widow PSR. I like the old 50's style and they have the same feel as their PL longbow. The spliced veneers have really caught my eye.
Good luck to you in whatever you choose.... I'm sure you can't go wrong with either!
God Bless,
Rodd
Hope you have an uneventful deployment!
Stay strong