Hello Guys, so I'm in uncharted waters again and could use some help. I've cut my ipe and now have two pieces 72 long, 1 3/8 wide and 13/16 thick.
For the first bow I will be using my white oak backing strip, I've never done a r/d or worked with ipe and bamboo so ill use the boo on the next one. Trying to keep it as simple as possible. If 13/16 plus 1/8 backing strip turn out to be to thin for a bendy, I have enough ipe left to do a glue on riser stiff handle bow.
The WO has a slight wave in the grain, I can center it in the handle area of a 59 3/4 inch bow (26 draw), it only last a couple inches. I'm thinking it will be fine, its not much but........(who knows).
So I'm thinking 60 inches t2t 1 inch wide BITH bow, parallel mid limb to mid limb, taper to .5 or less tips with slight reflex.
How does this sound? Design advice welcome.
Question can I prep the ipe for glue up with mineral spirits or alcohol, don't have any acetone.
Like I said on PA I think just sanding and a brush off with a good brush is your best bet. I've heard that solvents will bring oil to the surface.
Lets see what other more experienced bowyers say.
Ought to be good.
Yes Pat is right do NOT use acetone....
Anyway you could never get all the oil out of ipe even if you tried!
Ipe at that thickness will make a 100#'er
At 60 inch long I would glue up at around 3/4 thick total for a 60#'er.
Ipe is stiff stuff ;)
For your r/d bow you would need the ipe to be around 3/16th to 1/4 max. The problem is its stiffness, any thicker and it either simply won't conform to the form or it will raise splinters/snap if you force it. Anyway it sounds like a r/d is in your future! Just ask for lam thicknesses when you come to make one. I can give you fairly precise measurements.
Thanks Mike, not sure I follow you though on the thickness. Originally I said r/d, I meant only some reflex. The way Pat did in his alb lemonwood build.
But I will be doing a R/D in the future and would be very grateful for help with lam thickness when I do.
Well Guys, got the belly taper roughed in on both limbs 13/16 down to 7/16 at the tip. Shes still 1 3/8 wide and stiff, you could hunt elephants with this thing if you could brace and draw it. So I guess I should put a string on it line up the tips and work a rough profile in there. Leave some wiggle room maybe 5/8 tips 1 1/8 on the rest.
Roy, you said the parallel out 6 inches formula works on any bow right. I'm going with that on this one. I'm thinking if ipe is as stiff as people say, and it seems to be, this will keep me from having paper thin outer limbs. I planed on ending up with 3/8 tips, the rest will be one inch wide.
To late now, she's almost ready to run. No clue how this recipe will turn out, so some body hold this jug and let me know when the feds get here.
Well its what I got.
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Every thing went right as far as I know. Had it all lined up ahead of time just hope I got it all done before it started to set up. Meant to use tight bond original grabbed tb2 by mistake. I only put an inch and a half in it, if it keeps any after tiller ill be happy. Every one else seems to do 2-2.5 but until I know how this ipe works I didn't want to cause myself undue difficulties. When I get to the next one with the bamboo, hopefully I will have a better feel for it and be able to do a more proper reflex.
It will hardly have any reflex. And you should alternate the clamps side to side. Look at my bow party pictures.
Roy, its a slightly different set up than yours. I was told by several people that ipe wouldn't take deflex well. All the clamps are centered on the bow and hook from beneath the bench, so there is no twisting from the weight of the clamps being on one side.
Ive been watching you fellows and listening. I need to get me about 30 c-clamps, may go to harbor freight this weekend. I plan on doing the boo backed one just like yours, if it doesnt hold the deflex oh well.
Clamps obviously work but a better option is to go to your local bike shop and ask for their waste innertubes. You'll likely get a big box for free :)
The tubes give a more even compression (better gluelines), weigh nothing and are free.
your glue-up is going to be very stiff....plenty of floor tillering! ;)
Oh and ipe WILL conform to a pretty radical shape but you must know stack details and use a thin enough piece with very good grain. Trying to bend a too thick piece or a swirly grained piece of ipe is not a good idea.
Thanks Mike, The grain looked ok in this ipe best I can tell, I did notice some swirls as you said, possibly a knot? Another reason I didn't try for lots of flex. But what I did put in was fairly easy.
I don't even know what stack details are, but I got a good idea. After this bow I hope to have a better feel for it. That way I can intentionally get in over my head. lol
It will make a bow. Good practice, Johnny.
Its gonna make a kick ass bow, trust me. Or its gonna blow up like bad boob job, well shall see.
How long to leve that clamped up, used tb2?
I leave them dry 24 hours. Especially when clamped with reflex.
That's what I figured. Sounds safe anyhow.
When you guys say two inches of reflex, is that two inches measured up from the back of bow? Meaning if ya had two inches of reflex the tips would extend two inches higher than the back at the handle.
I went with an inch and a half, but i didnt take the handle into consideration. I did end up with a nice smooth 3/4 though. Live break and learn i guess.
John, I use a 2x4 block which gives the bow 3 1/2" of reflex at glue up. That usually settles to just over 2" off the form and 1" to flat after shot in.
Gotcha Pat, I was trying to go easy. I was surprised it kept over half. I didn't want to stress it tonight, it just came out of the clamps after 24 hours. Its nice and symmetrical to. I done some scraping, its stiff. 3/4 at the handle, 5/8 mid limb and half an inch at the tips including the backing, she don't bend much.
I run a line 1/8 from edge down the back and 3/16 down the side and rounded the corners.
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At those numbers it will be stiff! Keep checking tiller at full draw weight as you progress.
Use the faceting technique to get the belly round.
ipe can be a pain if you find a pin knot as if it is strained it will chysal there. hopefully you haven't got any hidden pins. Swirly grain is the same because the fibers are hitting the surface at an angle and can't take the compression that straight grain can. Anyway don't stress about it, if you get anymore ipe in the future be super careful about getting straight grained boards.
Mike, Yea shes stiff all right. Haven't seen any pin knots, there is a swirl or something in one limb. I can feel it when I'm scraping. I don't know, we will se what happens.
Took a long weekend off for Mardi Gras. Not really my thing but I'll take the 2 days off of work.
Yeah John, looks like you have a lot of ipe to remove. Other than that, looks good.
Once you start bending nicely on floor tiller take a measurement on thickness so you'll be closer on #2. Ipe that thick hates to bend, and hates tension. I've had 3 or so break on me at glue up when trying to r/d it too thick.
Brenton, I've been measuring thickness a lot on all my builds for that reason. That way I have a better idea of many bows I can get from a particular piece of wood. Had I know what I was doing could have got two from that stave Pat sent me I believe.
Well fellows I'm cooking with gas now. #55 @ 3 inches of tip movement, nice even bend. Maybe ill just exercise it up to full draw and have a 130 pound turkey bow.
I think you are cooking with potassium nitrate, the main ingredient in fireworks, if you keep pulling on that thick ipe.
Slow and steady wins the race.
BMorv, I only pull it to draw weight, it feels like a nice fluid bend, even though it doesn't bend far. How else am supposed to tiller it? I think I understand what your saying, but I don't know what I'm doing. Its not nearly as thick as it was, ive got 4-5 inches of tip movement now at #55. I think its on the verge of starting to move faster. So I slowed down to ten scrapes, sand, exercise check tiller.
I'm a genius, this is how good I am. I started with 5/8 reflex and have tillered in another 1/4 for a total of 7/8, now that's skill right thar.
No seriously guys, I was reading about that the other day, how the more belly wood you remove the more Perry reflex would show up. I understand the reasons for that. I don't remember it saying that was a bad thing due to improper tillering or what.
Whats up with this witchery guys?
What I'm saying is that there's no point in tugging on a block of wood on the tiller tree or whatever you are using. Take your 55 lb pink bow you just made and grab it by the handle, pad the back of the tip and bend the limb a couple of inches on the floor. Do it a couple times to get a feel for what force it takes to bend that small amount. Then do the same with your ipe bow. If it takes twice the force then you got more work to do. If you aren't pulling past your draw weight I guess you aren't doing any harm, it just will take longer.
It's normal for it to take on more reflex when reducing that much thickness. The glue was set with the reflex forces of a thick piece of ipe. Now that it's thinner, the forces in the glue stay the same, and it bends more.
And to be clear, once you do get the limbs bending a bit on the floor, you should go slow. Especially slow with ipe. And excercise it. It's notorious for "nothing, nothing, nothing, nothing, then 10 lbs under weight"
Gotcha. I made a proper tree on the wall. Its down to 3/8 tips 1/2 inch mid limb that includes the backing. Doing 10 scrapes at a time, so it might take awhile but its better than coming in under like ya said.
A better tool would be a spokeshave or a coarse rasp at this point.
Scraping will take a long time and it is likely you will end up with a 'washboard' surface.
Put pencil marks all the way up the belly, remove with coarse rasp, redo pencil mark scrape smooth, check tiller/draw weight/length. Repeat.
Once you get it bending to 18 or so inch at draw weight then switch to more gentle tools like the scraper/combined with a fine rasp/bastard file. Past 22 inches 2nd cut file and scraper. Past 24 inchs scraper and 60 grit paper. Last couple of inch use only 80 grit.
Next time I will use the rasp and planes a lil longer. I'm scared to switch now, I think I'm at the point BMorv mentioned. She could start to bend easier at any time. Gonna take the better safe than sorry route.
Inch and a half of reflex now. I read all I could, I understand that a reflexed bow will seem stiffer at first as opposed to a straight limb bow. I am going to start working more to the inner and midlimbs. I don't think I have the outers to thin, but Its possible. If it comes in at 40 ill be happy, be happier with 60 but ill know next time.
How are you measuring reflex? There's no right or wrong way. I usually flip the bow over on a flat surface and measure how much the tips lift the back of the riser up. Like this....
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I've had and still have trouble with proper tiller on heavily R/D's bows. I've found that pre-tillering the belly before glue up and just letting the R/D take what shape it wants is my best chance at a good tiller. I've gotten into trouble more than once trying to shape the r/d into what I wanted it to look like.
But you have a mild reflexed bow. You can still use the gizmo. Just know that the reflexed areas will look a little stiffer.
I was doing it the other way, either way it gained 7/8 of an inch.
Doesnt matter now she blew like chinese fire crackers at #45 in an area 1/4 inch thick.
I believe my reflex wasnt even enough, or the wood seemed seriously dry to me, not to mention questionable grain in the backing. But both limbs went simutaniously just before or in the most acute area of reflex.
The most likely reason is on the wall with the rope and pully something seemed off it was still #55 at 6 inches of tip movement. When i put it on the other tree with the scale hooked directly to the string i was at 45 and noticed the tips were way more than 6 inches, thats exactly the instance it went pow. So i probly pulled it 5 inches further than it had been pulled before all at once. On to the boo then.
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Sorry to see that.
Yes the grain wasn't straight enough on that backing strip.
Always use only the straightest grained wood you can find, especially for the backing. A good bow is built on good foundations.
I mentioned the tools before because you will find that the combinations I suggested will give you more accuracy. Speed is irrelavent at your stage accuracy is key. I wasn't really meaning to use those tools to speed things up at all. Sticking with a scraper is likely to mess up the taper. A clean accurate taper is one of the holy grails of bow making :)
Thanks Mike, I have a long background in wood working, not bow making though. The taper was perfect. I get carried away with rasp and spoke shaves.
Sorry to hear that John. It always sucks to break one.
Looks like the backing was the start of the problem. You say it broke at the same spot on both sides simultaneously? That's interesting...
One good thing about bamboo is you don't have to worry grain. You have other things to worry about, but not grain runoff.
And every time I've broken ipe, it cracks with a puff of dust, and then it looks dry alone the fibers. Inside my garage was 84% humidity today, and I used to not measure moisture content, so I know the ipe wasn't too dry.
What taper rate did you use?
Sorry, John.
Thanks BMorv, I don't see anything being dry were your at. lol Maybe it would have blew eventually but I really think the uneven refkex combined with me pulling it to far made it sooner rather than later. Got to go to town and buy clamps. when I get back were gonna start an BBI. I was also out of beer, that's what I really think happened.
"I was also out of beer, that's what I really think happened."
I think we got to the bottom of it...never good to work with the shakes. lol
LOL, I understand.. :)
If you can get perfect tapers there is no need to floor tiller..... ;)
I can pretty much guarantee you that the taper wasn't perfect ;) Even sat here ;) Much to learn grasshopper...