I had no intention of doing a build log but it occurred to me that as I am finding out how not to do things it might be useful to another. After all the folks that have taken the time to help me here has brought me to this point so I'll try to pay it forward.
So this is a continuation from this thread:
http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=125;t=012248;p=1
I started by making a template for the form and gluing up the plywood. I made the template from hardboard tempered panel. I wont do this again but more on that later. I attempted to glue the full length printed pattern on the board. I had paper stuck to me, to the board and bubbles and wrinkles everywhere. I made up a few dirty words in the process. I ended up making the template a little more than 1/2 the total length and flipping it over based on Kenny's build along. Kenny\\'s 62" build along (http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=125;t=012422#000000)
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I bought birch from home depot as the actual dimension is .75" and my form needs to be 1.5". As most know usually .75" in plywood is not actually .75".
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The birch seems brittle and the outer laminations want to peel off or break off if you look at them wrong.
I screwed the template to the form and broke out my fancy new pattern bit thinking "I'm you know what in tall cotton now". I checked, rechecked and tinkered until I thought I had it down, ok flip the switch lets go! All of a sudden something is terribly wrong the router shaking like a dog crapping peach pits and I smell burning wood WTH? I had checked the collar on the patten bit but somehow it worked loose and the hardboard was riding on the shaft of the bit instead of the bearing and I was cutting 1/8" too deep. Wordy dirds! You can see the aftermath.
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To add injury to insult the bit spit out the set screw (think tiny black thing). I worked the contents of the shop vac and the ground with a magnet and no luck. Dumped the vac and sucked up all the remaining stuff on the floor searched it.. no luck. Down on my hands and knees last ditch there it is in one of the concrete joints.
So as I am evaluating the aftermath of making half of the cut it dawns on my that I can fix the problem by cutting the whole thing wrong. Reset the router bit so it will ride on the shaft instead of the bearing and continue on. Take the template off and reset the router bit to run correctly (this time with loc-tite) and finish the form.
As I am standing there looking at my mess palm firmly on forhead I realize the hardboard is only like 5/16" and deforms very easily. Never again, thicker MDF or plywood only.
Also learned to cut the form as close as possible to the line before screwing on the template and cutting. The smaller the amount of waste for the pattern bit to cut off the better the surface and ease of control of the router.
So I had left myself some options at the beginning and had purchased a 1.5" strip of 1/8" aluminum.
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So I mixed up some bondo brand epoxy and sawdust and filled in the dips in the form. A little rasping and sanding made it much better. Strapped the aluminum down to the form to give it some shape and evaluate the possibility, hey this might work! Marked my screw locations and counter sunk screw holes in the aluminum. Mixed up some more epoxy and put it on the form strapped down the aluminum and fixed it in place with self tapping dry wall screws. Won't know the final verdict for another 24hrs.
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LOL, sounds like a regular day in the shop for me.. :)
I'm so glad I'm not the only one this sh** happen to !
Don't think your the first to gouge up a form, I had to use Bondo to repair my first two forms. It generally never is as easy as some of these guys make it look.
Good thing most of these mess ups are easily repaired.
Looking good so far.
RW
There's bondo on all my forms..I had to buy a pint of bondo a few weeks ago, just to fix 3 tiny digs. I mixed a teaspoon of bondo to fix the small digs. Like the other guys said..that's how it goes some days, it will go much better next time.
The aluminum strip should work- you'll want to fill those counter sunk screw holes and make them flush.
So far, you are following in my footsteps. :)
Sorry to see your pain, but somehow it feels good to know I'm not the only one to make these mistakes.
The peeling/brittle birch plywood sounds odd..the birch plywood I bought from Lowes was really nice and smooth,but that was 4 years ago.. I was at Lowes the other day and saw some super nice oak plywood along with some birch. Routers are mean little machines.if you have to you can always make a new template and recut your form. I did that on my ILF limb form a couple of weeks ago.. I didn't have a perfect square form, i didnt have router and table square like I thought I did. I was off about 1/32" ..got it right the 2nd time.
I can relate exactly to your woes,having had a very similar result with a form and my router, only I hit a hidden screw in the ply with my brand new $50 pattern bit as well. , plus biting chunks out of the form to boot!
:laughing: sounds similar to the form I finish building a couple of weeks ago. It will turn out in the end!
Looks like you are going to make it work and cant wait to see the first bow. I have had them days, by the way what is a "Recurve Build Log"
Boy I'm glad I'm not the only one that has those days. I'm looking forward to more.
-Jay
QuoteOriginally posted by rmorris:
Looks like you are going to make it work and cant wait to see the first bow. I have had them days, by the way what is a "Recurve Build Log"
Well to call it a build along seemed wrong compared to the fine work most of y'all do.
QuoteOriginally posted by Robertfishes:
The peeling/brittle birch plywood sounds odd..the birch plywood I bought from Lowes was really nice and smooth,but that was 4 years ago.. I was at Lowes the other day and saw some super nice oak plywood along with some birch. Routers are mean little machines.if you have to you can always make a new template and recut your form. I did that on my ILF limb form a couple of weeks ago.. I didn't have a perfect square form, i didnt have router and table square like I thought I did. I was off about 1/32" ..got it right the 2nd time.
The surface layer was delaminating just sitting in my garage? Sometimes I think the quality of wood products is getting worse and worse.
Thanks for all the comments, sounds like I am just paying my dues, glad I'm on the right-wrong track. :banghead:
I have a question and I think I know the answer but I can use some confirmation. I don't think I have seen anyone address this but I am thinking that when I lay up the bow the thickness of the actionboo lams needs to be the same at any given spot over the length of the limb. The lams on the back will be joined the full length of the bow and the belly lams will not. I am thinking I need to mark them on the side before lay up so I can line them up.
Riser template done! Can't say enough good things about the Ridgid oscillating sander it is a great tool!
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Finally tried out my thickness sander, made a taper sled with the action boo tapers before they are entombed in epoxy and fiberglass. Worked good once I figured out how to adjust the setup of the machine.
Man time flies. Can't believe it has been almost four months since I posted or made appreciable progress on this project. I have been busy besides but lost a few weeks with medical issues but on the mend now so time to get back on it before it gets too hot to work in the garage.
First thing first, I figured out I was breathing way too much fine dust. Did a great deal of research and decided a dust deputy was in my future. Did my homework and discovered it removes fine particles the shop vac won't and it keeps the shop vac filter clean so you don't lose suction. My unscientific analysis agrees with my research. Here's my set up.
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I built a mount on top of my shop vac, so far I'm really happy with the results. Much better dust control, portable and no larger footprint than my shopvac. I have to save space where I can.
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I didn't take pics of the riser glue up but it's not very elaborate. Ash with a purple heart accent, the only reason for the accent was to achieve the height I needed. I built a little hot box and modified a space heater. With my digital control it worked great. I still need to build the large hot box and will post some pics then.
This ash is super hard nothing likes to cut it. For those limping by with a 10" craftsman bandsaw like me, don't give up. I bought aftermarket bearings and followed this setup tutorial. Band Saw Clinic (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wGbZqWac0jU&list=WL&index=17)
Works good and cuts square for the first time.
I cut the riser out today and with a little work go it ready for glue up. I cut just outside the lines and used the rigid sander the rest of the way.
Test fit to form. I worked it until there was no light showing through between the form and riser.
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Finished riser.
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The ends of the riser came out great. This picture doesn't do it justice I'm not steady enough to get the shot. They are super thin.
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Comments and suggestions welcome.
Looking nice, can see how thin those fades are.Keen to see more . :thumbsup:
Time for another update on this saga. Mostly finished my hot box this weekend. It was a cool 97 degrees this weekend so I jumped on it. Shop time is hard to come by in the summer here with triple digit temps. I need an air conditioned shop some day.
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Outer dimensions are 84'x12'x32"
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I'm planning to use my hacked space heater with a digital control it has worked well in testing so far. Handles, lachtes and wheels yet to put on.
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I'm one happy guy. Set up the oven today, it holds temperature nicely. Setting it up with the space heater was an interesting process it's all about airflow. There has to be enough ventilation so that there is no or very little back pressure on the space heater. I ended up with 28 3/8" holes on each end. This ends up at about 74% of the diameter of the fan opening on the space heater. Good even heat distribution throughout the oven. It reaches temperature in under 4 min.
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That is one nice hotbox! I wouldn't want to post a shot of mine!Temp is regulated by 'cracking' the lid as needed.
That's coming along nicely. :)
I probably went overboard with the hot box but the hope was to make it once and as user friendly as possible. With the testing I went through is was apparent that there is a huge temperature difference from the top to the bottom in a box with no air movement be it using light bulbs or otherwise. With a set point of 170 F I am running 167 F average across the whole area. Now back to mocking up a dry run and hopefully gluing up my first bow soon.
Thanks for the kind words.
PS infrared thermometers are useless for measuring air temp and on foil insulation, you probably all knew this but dummy me just figured it out.
The hot box build was loosely based on this one by bjansen. Its a great build along. bjansen hot box build (http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=125;t=004433)
If useful below is a link to download the sketchup file created for my build.
Sketchup oven plan (https://app.box.com/s/2tlbbkx297iy4c59kzkxo0n2ehdsqhd7)
Well I don't know where to start maybe I shouldn't have at all. I hit it at 0630 this morn with a lot to do. I spliced the lams and did a dry run cut all lams to size. This is when things went to pot. The riser that I had fiercely guarded fell off the form when the wind blew into the shop,broke off both ends. I almost burned the whole lot. I started this bow in January. I couldn't bare the thought of building another riser. I cut the riser down from 20 to 18 inches and re-tapered. Added some tip wedges hoping to regain some stability. It's 106f in the shop by now. I think the heat got to me, I was on mission it was going in the hot box today or never. Seemed like things were getting better, set up to glue and had a plan. I had all but the last two lams on and the smooth-on kicked off, boogers everywhere. Scrambled to scrap them off and mix more epoxy. Finally got it wrapped and in the hot box at 1830. Out of breath, heat exhausted, heart pounding. As I set it up in the hot box I think I saw that the riser had slid, I didn't ivestigate, couldn't bare to. It's probably junk, I'm sick. I'll post a post mortem after I check it out tomorrow. Most of y'all make it look easy, it ain't or I'm just dumb as a post can't decide right now. Hope y'all have better luck.
only difference is we haven't posted all our stuff ups Pago! I have absolutely no doubt we all have similar stories if we dared to tell.i wrestled one of my earlier longbows about on the form until it ended up with glue starvation need the top of the fade ramps.And that's only one example!I hope it works for you and can relate to nerves waiting on outcome of hotbox. I think every time a bow goes in mine I still worry about the outcome.
Thanks Bob, now I can't believe I posted that. I did get a touch of heat exhaustion. I was not myself when I wrote that guess I needed to vent. I peeked at the glue-up this morning and riser did move which also created a gap I doubt it will be shootable. If only I could TBT.
Things learned:
In Arizona don't mix up more than 4oz of smooth-on at one time.
In the summer here glue ups need to happen early-early in the A.M.
Always put the riser back on the bench.
When you apply the second round of rubber bands double check the riser even if you know the epoxy is already kicking off.
Better yet, use a firehose, I may use the glued up mess to make a template for a top to the form.
I have never broke the fades off the riser
:saywhat: :rolleyes: :banghead:
and your nose id getting longer by the second! :bigsmyl: :bigsmyl: Pago have you thought of drilling a hole under center line of riser form and just using a zip tie to really hold that sucker in place . I do and it wrks well.
I use a 1/8" wood dowel, close to the edge of the riser where it will be filed off to pin the lams to the riser/ form
I am betting you get a bow out of it by the time your done. The first is normally not the best bow you will ever make - there is most definitely a learning curve. It does get easier. I am working on my 5th fiberglass bow now - the glue up go smoother after you have done a couple - however, it seems like there is always something that comes up! Those that are way up on that learning curve sure make it look easy!
The pictures tell the story.
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Tip wedge
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Other tip wedge
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I'm wondering if I could split the back lams away from the riser. Does anyone think it will be possible to cut a section out of the center of the lams on the riser and glue them back down? I could cover the split with an overlay?
I hate to bin it the glue lines look pretty good to me everywhere else. Input appreciated.
if limbs glues are fine, you can drop some epoxy on those holes and C-clamp it. you may save the bow.
I don't know where this is going at this point may not be anywhere good. The misadventure continues....
I was able to do what I wanted and split the back layers away from the riser and cut them horizontally. This will allow me to do some sanding behind the glass and smooth things out. I'm going to thin some smooth on and inject it in a few places, then glue everything back down and cover the split with a fiberglass overlay.
One limb is two inches longer than the other, there was some of this in the design but it is exacerbated by the movement of the riser. I'm still working out this problem, initially my plan is to put the longer limb on top and see where I end up.
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Here it is out of the hot box again. No gaps or voids now.
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Any advice on handling the difference in limb length appreciated.
Would you be able to chop one inch off the longer limb, then make that the top? That would make the difference only an inch, and maybe more workable? I don't suppose whacking the whole two inches off would work that well, so maybe one could be a compromise? You may need to make the bottom limb a little thinner in profile to accommodate the shorter length ... not sure about that though. You'll have to see what the tiller looks like when you get the limb profile cut and nocks on. Ooh, nother thought -- after whacking the inch off the top, maybe move the string nock down an extra half-inch from where you mark the bottom (eg, if the bottom is an inch from the tip, make the top one 1.5 inches from the tip). That would bring the working portion of the limb closer to even.
ThanksJoe I'll try and incorporate your input. I haven't had time to do anything this week maybe tomorrow.
Funny thing I have been introduced to a feller who has been making bows for 30 yrs. He invited me to his shop tomorrow to talk bows and check out the way he does it can't wait.
Progress update so far so good. It will be a challenge to tune assuming it stays together.
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Well the little bow continues to survive. Strung it for the first time tonight the tiller is off by 1 5/8". Don't know if I can thin the short limb enough to make it workable. This thing is a beast 70+# Check out the pics.
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You may still get a bow out of it but my personal opinion is that you should start again. Take everything you have learnt this time around and apply it on the next one.
A pin for the riser. Lots of tape to stop lams moving as pressure is applied. Make the ends of the riser paper thin for 1 inch so you can see light through it. Same goes for the tip wedges. Doing this will really help your gluelines where the blend is.
I had a similar thing happen in July with my first build. I took it to the range and it came apart on me before i even got one arrow through it. the guys and galls on here helped with alot of trouble shooting. dont get discouraged bow 2 will be even better.
Appreciate the kind words. I had everything right at one point before it all went to heck. I need do something to ensure the riser can't move on the next one. The real shame is everything else came out good. The form works good and makes a straight bow. The limbs unfold nicely with the stack and taper I used. I managed to get the tiller within 1/4" but it looks funky with a 1" wide bottom limb and 1.5" on top.
i had the same problem with my first 1 piece glass bow- now i use the toothpick retainer in the riser section on every bow, i also mark center of the riser block, and have a reference line on the form- and i make sure everything lines up, after full pressure- before it goes in the oven.
better luck on the next one :thumbsup:
Here it is, 65# @ 28". The bow is a little noisey, has a little bit of hand shock but shoots nicely and accurately. Makes me realize how nice it could have been. Thanks for all your comments and help.
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Good save! At least you have a functional bow that looks ok as well, given the mishap! All good!
Good save! Have you started on the next one yet?
Thanks, I haven't ordered materials yet but I'm mentally working on it. I did some things wrong but thereafter I made up for it. I give credit to this forum for instance: I put very thin tip wedges in this bow after reading discussions here, which really enhanced the function of the limbs. Just to mention one thing.