I've got the lams just about ready. On the last one like this I tapered the backing and core Lams. On this one I'm going to keep the backing lam straight and taper the core a little more. This is going to be pecan/pecan/walnut in that order for backing/core/belly. This one will have a 16" riser section (not sure on the wood yet) with 4" fades so I don't have to go so thin on the walnut belly to make the transition like I did on the last one. I'm going to put a final backing on this one with sinew before I start tillering to try to end up at 50-55@28 with no splinter pops. The specs are:
65" ntn
1.5" width to midlimb tapering to .5"
5/8" thickness from fades to 3/8" at tips.
Here is a pic of the lams and form I'll be using.
(http://i59.tinypic.com/oa8c48.jpg)
There are a few more adjustments I need to make on the core before I start initial glue up. I have marked the thickness on each side of the pecan core and have put the amount I still need to reduce between the numbers in a circle. I'm going to try to get it as perfect as possible this time before I even pull out the scraper.
(http://i58.tinypic.com/11lms1v.jpg)
Mike, I lke your plan but I would recommend not using walnut as the belly. It is not very strong in compression. Pecan would be much stronger.
Walnut is light weight and better suited to being a core.
Thanks for the advice Ben. You know, come to think of it, I think the layers would compliment each other much more color wise in the configuration you are suggesting as well. Now is the best time to change that. I'll work on it tomorrow evening and post the results.
I concur with putting walnut in the center.
Me 3..
Me 4...and no need to sinew that either to hit your weight...learn how to tiller to a specific weight instead....plus it doesn't need sinew...hickory is more than capable as a backing(as long as u chose an acceptable piece with acceptable grain)...if wanting to keep splinters at bay just use rawhide..but again if you chose a good piece you shouldn't have to worry about it
QuoteOriginally posted by Black Mockingbird:
Me 4...and no need to sinew that either to hit your weight...learn how to tiller to a specific weight instead....plus it doesn't need sinew...hickory is more than capable as a backing(as long as u chose an acceptable piece with acceptable grain)...if wanting to keep splinters at bay just use rawhide..but again if you chose a good piece you shouldn't have to worry about it
Herein lies my issue...I have a 1.25" thick slab of pecan about 18" wide and 12' long that I picked up from a sawmill in Natchez, MS for 25 bucks. You can see some of it in the pic above beside and underneath my form. This is all the material I have on hand for honing my bow building skills so I don't have the liberty to select a "perfect" piece. I have to use what I have on hand and I also have a bag full of Elk leg tendons I can process into sinew. I know the grain violations will require backing for keeping splinters down if nothing else. I also need the practice in processing and applying sinew. I know it's probably overkill but I'm really more concerned at this stage about what skills I can learn rather than having a foolproof building process.
Not sure if I'm making any sense with that statement? LOL
18 wide by 1.25 thick? I would cut that board out so I had a 1/4 sawn piece of wood for my bow.
QuoteOriginally posted by Roy from Pa:
18 wide by 1.25 thick? I would cut that board out so I had a 1/4 sawn piece of wood for my bow.
I'm still learning here, so please excuse my ignorance...but could you elaborate on what steps you would take to do this? I understand what 1/4 sawing at a mill is, but I'm not sure I understand how you mean to turn an 18" wide by 1 1/4" thick plain sawn board into a 1/4 sawn peice??
A lot has to do with the grain the board has, but if possible I would orientate my cut so the bow slat would be 1/4 sawn if possible, or at least rift sawn. Here is what you want the end of your board for the bow to look like if possible. This board is closer to rift sawn than 1/4 sawn. 1/4 sawn the grain would be running straight vertical.
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/bow4.png) (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/ROY-CHRIS/media/bow4.png.html)
What I am trying to say is, your board is 1.5" thick, which is what the width of your bow is going to be, so therefore you have enough thickness in your board to cut it in a manner to get rift or 1/4 sawn material..
Got it. Thanks Roy for explaining that. I was thinking more of the technique of how the wood was sawn from the mill, and not so much how the grain lines up in the board as a result of that sawing technique...
Classic case of OVERTHINKING it!
Yupper, here is what I strive for, Mike..
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/billetends.png) (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/ROY-CHRIS/media/billetends.png.html)
Then I run them through the drum sander to even them up and or taper them if needed.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jjSbwgKB7FA&feature=youtu.be
Interesting form, Mike. Glad to see I'm not the only one who uses a non-firehose type form. Mine is pressure treated 2x8 with dowels spaced every 2" and bicycle innertube bands:
(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b282/kenhulme/My%20Yanghai/MarkIIForm-Symmetrical_zpsad1756fb.jpg) (http://s21.photobucket.com/user/kenhulme/media/My%20Yanghai/MarkIIForm-Symmetrical_zpsad1756fb.jpg.html)
QuoteOriginally posted by KenH:
Interesting form, Mike. Glad to see I'm not the only one who uses a non-firehose type form. Mine is pressure treated 2x8 with dowels spaced every 2" and bicycle innertube bands:
(http://i21.photobucket.com/albums/b282/kenhulme/My%20Yanghai/MarkIIForm-Symmetrical_zpsad1756fb.jpg) (http://s21.photobucket.com/user/kenhulme/media/My%20Yanghai/MarkIIForm-Symmetrical_zpsad1756fb.jpg.html)
Thanks Ken. That's a nice looking form you got there yourself!
Well I went and picked up some more walnut today to remake the core. I decided to try and find a better and more accurate way to taper the lam, so after a little brainstorming, I came up with this.
(http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/k620/bmbrady77/Mobile%20Uploads/20140507_205139.jpg)
It's a jig for clamping the handle area and one limb flat down and running a router with a straight bit set at 1" depth. I thought it was a great idea and it actually produced a perfect evenly shaped and even thickness taper all the way down until I got to the tip area. I didn't anticipate the effect of a high rpm cutting bit inducing torque on the wood that it is cutting, thus producing a nice explosion when the thickness of the wood is too thin to handle the vibration and can no longer hold its fibers together.
(http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/k620/bmbrady77/Mobile%20Uploads/20140507_205229.jpg)
Long story short, I ruined a perfectly good walnut lam and I just have enough wood for one more. I may use the jig and router down to with 6 or 8 inches of the end then finish it off on the belt sander. I may just do the whole taper on the belt sander just to be safe. I'll try again tomorrow evening when I get off work.
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/IMG_7821.jpg) (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/ROY-CHRIS/media/IMG_7821.jpg.html)
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/IMG_7823.jpg) (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/ROY-CHRIS/media/IMG_7823.jpg.html)
Doing glue ups at 6am Roy?
Sleep in once and a while man, you're retired!
Well I think I finally got over the "can't make a tapered lam blues" and built a solid jig that spit them out consistently.
Here is a pic of the jig. It sits on the platform of my Ridged belt/spindle sander.
(http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/k620/bmbrady77/Mobile%20Uploads/20140510_132359.jpg)
I also took Roy's advice and made my tapered core in two pieces and then spliced them. Got the splice done and clamped down. After the glue dries, I'll test the joint and and glue up the core and backing lams. Then it's just making the riser and gluing that up with the belly lams.
(http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/k620/bmbrady77/Mobile%20Uploads/20140510_132328.jpg)
(http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/k620/bmbrady77/Mobile%20Uploads/20140510_132337.jpg)
Don't go testing that glue joint too much, it will be fine once everything is glued together! I have already not even glued the core lam into a splice. I just lay it in there at glue up between the belly and backing. The backing, belly lam, and riser will be all the support it ever needs. What's the little piece sticking up for?
That's a fine strip I put in the joint to make up for the kerf of the blade where I cut the angles.
Also, I am going to put this in my form to make it a reflex deflex. I usually glue up the core and the backing and then use the result to make the riser section conform to the curve. Then I glue the riser on with the belly lams going up the fade.
You should glue the belly, core, and backing all at one time, then match the riser to that shape and glue it on later.
But how would I make the belly go up the fades if I did that?
You make the belly lam the same length as the core and backing lam. So after all three are glued together, you just cut the riser to the contour of the riser of the glue up and glue it on.
All three cores glued together here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHEXdeQ196M
All three right out of the clamps here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YNSE5utt9Sc
Riser cut to shape and ready to glue on here.
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/IMG_7837.jpg) (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/ROY-CHRIS/media/IMG_7837.jpg.html)
All pieces before glue up.
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/nexttrilam1.png) (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/ROY-CHRIS/media/nexttrilam1.png.html)
End result.
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/atri2.png) (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/ROY-CHRIS/media/atri2.png.html)
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/IMG_7842.jpg) (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/ROY-CHRIS/media/IMG_7842.jpg.html)
I understand what you're saying but I like the look of the belly lams riding up the fade. Not underneath the riser. I do like the belly under the riser for my board nows, but I like the other configuration better for my tri lam.
Okie doke, Mike..
Thank you Mr Roy. I really do appreciate your advice. This one is just my personal preference.
Btw, the joint held fine while I did the backing glue up. It's in the form now.
With the core and backing done, I went ahead and made the riser out of afromosia and glued it up. I will put the belly lams on this evening after the Mother's Day lunch.
(http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/k620/bmbrady77/Mobile%20Uploads/20140511_093322.jpg)
Got the belly lams glued up.
(http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/k620/bmbrady77/Tri%20Lam%20Number%202/20140511_202001.jpg)
(http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/k620/bmbrady77/Tri%20Lam%20Number%202/20140511_202018.jpg)
Off the form for good. This one is done with glue up. I need to clean it up and cut the width tapers this evening. May even go ahead and glue on tip reinforcements. Should start tillering by tomorrow evening if I get home early enough.
(http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/k620/bmbrady77/Tri%20Lam%20Number%202/20140512_062713.jpg)
Uhh....your core is waaaaaaaay too thick,and your belly lam is waaaaaay to thin man...you basically have em backwards
I think mockingbird may be right.
If you're lucky and your taper is spot on you're good, but you have very limited ability to tiller on the belly side with such a thin belly lam.
These same dimensions have yielded 42 - 50 lbs at 28" for me in the past. The core is 3/8 tapering to 1/8, and you guys said the walnut was weaker than the pecan. I'm confused? Should the core be a parallel and just taper the belly then?
The belly lam is 1/8 parallel right now.
If you've used these in the past then should be good to go.
I like the core being tapered. It's tapered more than it appears.
If you don't need much tillering should be good.
Got it cleaned up and trimmed an sanded.
(http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/k620/bmbrady77/Tri%20Lam%20Number%202/20140512_185514.jpg)
(http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/k620/bmbrady77/Tri%20Lam%20Number%202/20140512_185531.jpg)
I decided instead of rushing into tillering, I would go ahead and sinew back it and wait a week or so because of the less than than perfect grain on the back.
(http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/k620/bmbrady77/Tri%20Lam%20Number%202/20140512_194319.jpg)
(http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/k620/bmbrady77/Tri%20Lam%20Number%202/20140512_194326.jpg)
(http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/k620/bmbrady77/Tri%20Lam%20Number%202/20140512_195649.jpg)
I wish you much luck.
not sure if I'd spend much more time till I put it on a tree.
You don't have much belly to work with for tillering.
Might have to think about tillering it from the sides.
Heck..I hope you don't have to do any thing..lol
Zradix,
Speaking of....if I can get the bend looking decent without much belly scraping, would side tillering be the best bet for tweaking the weight if it's too high?
I HAVE NO IDEA.
Sorry bud..I've heard of some people doing it. I've never tried doing it myself.
just seemed about like the only option I could think of ,giving how thin the belly is, to make much adjustment to weight or tiller.
I'll tell ya right now...I'm no authority on bow making.
...unless you want to know how to break a few..lol
Hmmmm...i know the glass guys do side tillering almost exclusively, but glass doesn't require as much thickness to width ratio being more flexible. Just not sure if it would be a great idea or not with wood.
I guess I could always just trap the back more to drop weight if need be. I did that on the last one to get past a popped splinter and it dropped the weight 8 lbs!!
Looking forward to seeing what weight you get. Adding sinew should add considerable weight.
The glass guys really want to hit weight without removing much material . It's all in the formula.
Side tillering is a last resort. Trapping second last.
You've got time now anyway to think about your tillering approach cause that sinew will take a while to dry. Probably a month or more to get fully dried.
really..wow..
had no idea it took that long.
QuoteOriginally posted by LittleBen:
You've got time now anyway to think about your tillering approach cause that sinew will take a while to dry. Probably a month or more to get fully dried.
Your right Ben with hide glue. I used TBIII. It will be ready for tillering in about a week. I say this one from experience because my last tri-lam was ready for shoot-in (sinewed it after tillering) after a week and its still doing great and tiller hasn't changed a bit. It will probably still gain some weight but not too much. Definitely not as much as it would with hide glue.
I didn't really add it for extra weight, just extra protection.
QuoteOriginally posted by Zradix:
really..wow..
had no idea it took that long.
Depending on how much sinew you add, especially with hide glue as IceMike pointed out, it can take a long long long long time.
I had one that I dried for a month+, tillered to 45#, came back another 2-3months later and the bow had gained another 1/2" reflex and jumped to 56# .... where it began to fret, was retillered back to 45ish# where it now stays. So it can be way more than a month.
It makes sense when you consider that once the outer surface of the sinew gets a bit dry, I'd imagine much of the water from the sinew below the surface goes right into the wood where it takes a while to come out. So what I mean is you're not just waiting for the sinew to dry, but for the wood to dry again too.
I understand Ben. Thank you.
like ya say.. the surface dries and more or less seals in the moisture for a while.
That must've been a surprise when your bow changed that much..jeesh..lol
Ok guys I'm having a little hysteria here. I think I'm going nuts...
I started doing a little preliminary long string pulling on my my tri-lam this evening.
(http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/k620/bmbrady77/Tri%20Lam%20Number%202/20140515_180317.jpg)
I got it moving about 6". I decided I'd try to keep the limbs even from jump street so I put a 4' level on top of the bow.
(http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/k620/bmbrady77/Tri%20Lam%20Number%202/20140515_180536.jpg)
I though I would be smart and use my caliper to measure the distance along the tick marks I made on the level on both sides to ensure the limbs were bending evenly. I did this for a couple of scraping sessions. I was getting 2.3" deflection on one side and 2.6" deflection on the other at the same distance down the limb measured to the bottom of the level. I decided to turn the bow around on the tree to make sure that my long side moved...IT DIDNT!! I put the calipers on the riser block and measured every point I could and found that I had ground the back of the riser block a few hundreths out of square. I pulled all the points and marked it up and brought it to the belt sander and corrected that issue. I put it back on the tree and I still have the same issue. I don't know why it's giving me false readings but it is. The left side limb always measures longer no matter how I put the bow in the tree. I checked level from every angle on the tree itself..I just don't get it..
Should I just tiller it by eye?
Also, I'm at 55 lbs. at 6" inches right now so I gotta drop some serious weight. You guys had mentioned I might have that issue with the core being too thick and the belly too thin so my next question is...Do I start side tillering if I start getting too thin on the belly? I don't mind if the bow comes in at 60 or so (It's for myself anyways) but I'm not sure if this wood combo can handle that kind of weight at 1.5" wide..any suggestions? If I should start side tillering at some point, what is the best method to begin on that? Bring the taper back to the fades instead of mid limb?
Here is a pic of the bow drawn to 6" on the long string. I don't want to draw it too much further because, like I said, I'm hitting close to 55 lbs. right now..
(http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/k620/bmbrady77/Tri%20Lam%20Number%202/20140515_190540.jpg)
Thanks in advance for any help!!
If your 1 1/2 at and past the fades I'd start there maybe a couple of inches past the fades bring it down to at least 1 1/4'wide.
At first I would leave it wider at the fades because all your bending looks to be in that area.
Have you heard of the tillering gizmo that Eric K designed?
Make one, look it up on TG.
Since you added the sinew no way to thin back but maybe trapping if needed.
Thanks for the advice macbow. I have heard of the gizmo and have made one..but I have a question on that. Since the profile of this bow is reflex/deflex, should I be shooting for a circular type tiller that the gizmo would produce? I was under the impression that I should be looking for more of a Holmegaard or elliptical profile tiller. Is my thinking on this wrong?
#1. Shorten up your long string to where its pretty much touching the handle
#2. One limb is stronger than the other,and that's why it doesn't change when flipping it around
#3. Take the levels off and don't tiller by the distance from them...
#4. Since you did your thickness backwards with the core and belly,and have lots of weight to reduce you might lose too much of the belly(IMO you already don't have enough),and it could cause the belly piece to become overpowered and fret,and eventually fail possibly...if you lose to much you will have to take the while belly piece off,and then take some more thickness off of the core to where its no thicker than 1/8"...I taper my cores thickness 1/8"-1/16"...and then glue on a thicker belly lam..on tri lams I prep my belly to 3/8"-1/4" thickness taper(on standard normal bows)
#5. Sinewing that was a waste of time IMHO...and you just added to the complexity,and put in more work than needed and necessary...next time just use a proper grained and chosen backer...
When first getting into wood bows its best to keep things as simple as possible,and learn the basics..learn how to walk before you try running...and that's about as short as I can make my post ..although I feel like I could write a small book mentioning and explaining everything thoroughly
I think Black Mockingbird is onto something.
I would not side tiller, I can guarantee you cannot reach your target weight by side tillering.
I would tiller on the belly ... just scrape away, and if you remove too much belly wood and go through the belly lam, then so be it. (this is almost certainly going to happen). In that case, tiller to maybe 10-15# BELOW your target weight, but make sure the tiller is very good, take your time.
When you're done tillering your bow will be very underweight.
Then add a new belly lam of maybe 1/8" or so, and recheck tiller. Make tillering adjustments as necessary.
This will get you proper tiller, and sufficient belly lam thickness, but will take a substantial period of time.
I've got it on full brace and pulling to 52 lbs @ 21". Here is a pic of the tiller up to this point.
(http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/k620/bmbrady77/Tri%20Lam%20Number%202/20140516_174843.jpg)
It looks a tad off to me but I'm not quite sure if it's my eyes playing tricks on me or it's really a tad off. Where do you guys think more wood need to come off?
Looks pretty even to me, I would just remove wood evenly on both limbs. Do you have a positive tiller in mind or how are you going to tiller it?
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/mike.jpg) (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/ROY-CHRIS/media/mike.jpg.html)
She is getting there. Just go slow to avoid any hinges or cracks.
Thanks for marking that up Mr. Roy. That makes its a little easier to see.
I'm going for an even elliptical tiller I think. I shoot 3 under.
Do I have that right. Positive tiller for split finger and even for 3 under?
Yup that's a pretty close assumption, Mike..
The reason you thought your draw weight was way too high was because of the long string. The long string gives a false reading on draw weight, and shows the outer limb to be stiffer than it will be with a proper length string on it.
I still use the long string, they can be very helpful, you just have to keep those things in mind.
Well I'm done with wood bows I believe. I popped a splinter in this one on the backing where I had trapped it a little to drop some weight. It's fixable, but I just don't have the desire to keep babying wood to try to make it become a bow. If it's that sensitive...If it's that finicky, and it's that critical to have everything just perfect or it's going to break...which has been my experience for 6 bows so far now....Then how can I ever feel confident with one of these when I am in a stand and getting ready to draw on deer where it counts?
I'm ordering some fiberglass monday. I give up on all wood and will now try my hand at making a more reliable style of bow that has been proven time and time again...
Thank you guys for all your help during the progression of this thread. I may fix this one and finish it somewhere down the line...but the desire for building a reliable wood bow for me is like Elvis right now...It has left the building!! LOL
sorry it didn't work out Mike.
I certainly feel your frustration.
I will say...sometimes the hardest row to hoe yields the most rewarding harvest...
..or at least that's what I keep telling myself...lol
good luck on your future bows.
It's amazing how a good night's sleep will put things into perspective..
I went ahead and and fixed the popped splinter and inspected the area. There was a tiny pinhole knot that I didn't see before and that's why it popped right there. I braced the bow and mixed up a little epoxy and filled the crack, then let it down and clamped it. I think it's good but I'm going to re sinew the entire area I trapped just for good measure.
If it ain't broke, it ain't over!!
:thumbsup:
Have to admit...I like that spirit much better.
Dunt....Dunt...Dunt...da dunt dunt da duh dunt!! Another one bites the dust!!
LOL...
It gave up the ghost. Guess that crack went too deep...I feel better about it though because I saw it through to the end..Time to order some glass and lets get kicking on a REAL bow!! Lol!!