Ok this is making a joke of what I just figured out as my first rookie bow making mistake. So on my hickory self-bow I am working on, I measured the center point for a 68" Tip to Tip bow (66" NTN); so 34", and drew the lines for a 4" handle (2" on each side of the center-line). And guess what? I forgot the fade lines! :smileystooges:
I've already got the end of the handle (what I denoted as the fades) to 2" width and taper to 1/2" tips! I have yet to get the thickness profile.
I originally wanted a stiff handle design pyramid hickory self-bow but I fear this is not going to be the result. What can I do to salvage this mistake?
Here's a picture to prove my idiocy!
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v352/Number01hunter/P1010449_zpsfccc2159.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Number01hunter/media/P1010449_zpsfccc2159.jpg.html)
If you want to try and save it you could always try gluing a riser/over lay on the belly, won't be a true self bow but you still might make a shooter out of it. Good luck.
I have yet to get the thickness profile.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v352/Number01hunter/P1010449_zpsfccc2159.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Number01hunter/media/P1010449_zpsfccc2159.jpg.html) [/QB][/QUOTE]
Do you still have the thickness you need at the fade area? If so I would just go on about my business, mark out my desired fade length and keep on building. Unless I'm missing something.
I don't really see a problem. The taper from top and bottom of handle out another 2 inches is so minute it won't matter. A 2" wide hickory bow at the handle is a lot of wood. Your handle will be a tad narrower with the cut you have in it now, but I would make a bow out of it...
How thick is the handle area?
Sorry I forgot to add that detail. The handle width in the center is 1.5" wide. The thickness of the stave is around 2" from end to end.
Ok I was afraid that the taper would mess things up. Glad to hear my rookie mistake is not too detrimental with what I was planning. Just slightly narrower fades then what I was going for but as long as you guys think it'll be fine then I am happy.
As far as thickness should I go with a parallel thickness with taper from the handle wood, or a slight taper from fades to nocks?
if it is a pyramid profile go with an even taper from fades to tips I use 1/2" to start and tiller from there. I think pyramid is the way to go especially on the first couple bows, the grip area only has to be 1" at the ends and 1 1/4" in the middle least ways that is how I do it, and if you need more thickness in the handle when all is done you can build it up with leather or cork and shape to fit
Thanks bubby, and might I say you did an excellent job on your rawhide backed buckthorn! Are you saying 1" at the fades taper to 1/2" thick at nocks?
Here is how I do it and the same will fit easily on your bow;
I like bulbous handles so I leave a little more width in the center. My formula is a 1 1/4" circle in the center, 1" circles at the ends of the 4" handle section and out 2 3/4" I draw my fadeout full limb width circle.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/ekrewson/bow%20making/handlelayout_zps899b29e3.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/ekrewson/media/bow%20making/handlelayout_zps899b29e3.jpg.html)
I know you all are thinking "2 3/4" fades, what's up with that? I start my fades that long for a purpose, as I shape the limbs and get the fadeout area working the fades shorten a bit. The extra length keeps slope of my fades from ending up too abrupt.
Looks like you have plenty of handle shaping room. I like handles to be 1,25 in wide and 1.5 inches thick.
I never shape handles until the stave has reached full draw. I don;t want to waste time if it pops but more importantly, I can shape the handle accordingly to track the string better. I also leave the nocks a good inch wide until full draw for the same reason. I work a lot of character staves. I will heat but only as a last resort.
http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/traditionalshoots.html
Jawge
George has a valid point about not putting time in a bow that may or may not make it.
I do it a little differently. I completely shape my handle as soon as I get on the short string. Wood removal, especially in the fades will affect poundage. I have also changed a badly tracking string to a perfect, down the center string by shaping the handle perfectly even side to side, especially in the sloping area of the fades.
Thanks fellas, I just roughly laid out the handle and crudely used a rasp to get it to the lines. I am on the safe side and am leaving more wood than necessary for everything.
My next thing is getting the thickness to snuff and letting the stave dry out (it's at 12% MC) before tillering. I am not sure about what I want for a handle yet, my first one that broke had a locator handle with a sight shelf. I think for this bow I might go with a simple handle and to wrap it with deer buckskin, and have a wrapped shelf so to speak, such as using something to wedge a shelf underneath the wrapping.
But gotta make sure this stave survives the journey, and have it's life literally in my hands depending on if I make any more stupid mistakes! :goldtooth:
*~*UPDATE 2/20/2015*~*
Hey guys here's an update on the stave! And here's a link to where this bow began!
http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=125;t=011486;p=1
So awhile back I re-drew the fade lines they are 2" off each side of the handle, and I measured what the width of the stave is at those marks and she is 1 and 25/32th inches (or a big 3/4) wide. tapered to 1/2" tips.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v352/Number01hunter/Hickory%20Staves%2008-24-2013/IMG_0289_zpsd39f615d.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Number01hunter/media/Hickory%20Staves%2008-24-2013/IMG_0289_zpsd39f615d.jpg.html)
Thickness I got to snuff and actually started working on with the long string and the EKG (Eric Krewson Gizmo) :smileystooges:
And here's the results:
Unbraced:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v352/Number01hunter/Hickory%20Staves%2008-24-2013/IMG_0282_zps5c0c9814.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Number01hunter/media/Hickory%20Staves%2008-24-2013/IMG_0282_zps5c0c9814.jpg.html)
Pulled to 12" (32 pounds according to my bow scale):
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v352/Number01hunter/Hickory%20Staves%2008-24-2013/IMG_0283_zpse83334d0.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Number01hunter/media/Hickory%20Staves%2008-24-2013/IMG_0283_zpse83334d0.jpg.html)
And I felt confident to pull it to 18" as at 12" they looked identical, however you'll notice my right limb is much stronger than the left (47 pounds according to scale):
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v352/Number01hunter/Hickory%20Staves%2008-24-2013/IMG_0284_zps2d98c8db.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Number01hunter/media/Hickory%20Staves%2008-24-2013/IMG_0284_zps2d98c8db.jpg.html)
I wanna know how my progress is, with the gizmo, it's showing still thick at my problem area which is a big knot mid-limb off to one side, for which I have now carved out due to the thickness taper to be snuff as well as the dead wood inside the knot. I left it thick to maybe try and save it, but I'll leave it to the gurus for that judgement (did I mess up with the knot?)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v352/Number01hunter/Hickory%20Staves%2008-24-2013/IMG_0285_zps2f166d69.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Number01hunter/media/Hickory%20Staves%2008-24-2013/IMG_0285_zps2f166d69.jpg.html)
Here's another small knot in the other limb which I feel confident will survive:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v352/Number01hunter/Hickory%20Staves%2008-24-2013/IMG_0286_zps30eb8fc1.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Number01hunter/media/Hickory%20Staves%2008-24-2013/IMG_0286_zps30eb8fc1.jpg.html)
So my last question is, should I go ahead and move to the short string yet? or stay on the long string pull it to 18" each time with the gizmo until they are both bending evenly and then go to the short string. And how about the fades do I give them even scrapes along with the limbs?
My routine with the gizmo is mark lines, scrape off the lines with 10 strokes of the scraper (scraping with draw knife) and then 10 strokes down the entire limb.
Just would like to know where I stand and how to proceed further. And with that knot hole, should I leave it like it is throughout the bow's life (if it lives) or should I fill it in with a mixture of glue, wood shavings and dust (from the stave).
Sorry for all the questions but this is my second bow to work on after my first one broke and I had guidance on the first.
Oh yes, and the bow I plan on making is going to be 50# at 28"
Thanks,
Randy
You are still way heavy. I would take an even amount of rasps (or scrapes) off each limb and then bend it to 18" again. You might want to take a few more off the right limb but it's not too bad. Just make sure you are being very precise in wood removal and not taking too much off a particular point. I usually mark a spot like that know with the word "NO" on the belly and avoid it until the final tillering stage.
Get it closer to 40# at 20" before you string it up.
Thanks for the reply John. I worked on it for 4 hours today before giving in to the cold; was snowing today with a high of only 28 and the shop has no heat.
I measured with my calipers and found the fade area on that right limb (where the big knot is) was not exactly to my line of 5/8" so I perfected that as well as re-tapered the rest of the limb accordingly. With the knots I just left some extra wood around them as to leave a slight swell when viewed from the side. I'll work on those later.
I started to pull it to 18" with the gizmo and reduce the wood down. Will continue on it tomorrow as the high they are calling for is in the mid 50s so that will be a relief, and a good day for some time in the shop.
When I do remove wood I make sure I blend it into the rest of the limb.
Did you ever find out why your self-bow blew on final shoot in?
I think it was Satan. He's a bowbreaking A-hole :)
I'm enjoying your questions and build Randy.
You might wanna consider a cross over the top of your tiller tree...
(http://i.imgur.com/mLbo1SE.jpg)
I found this great example on the internet. You know to keep satan from breaking your stave!
:pray:
Oh lord, well then keep me and the bow in your prayers! :pray:
I got back out to the shop today and was working on 'er. Started bending to 18" and using the EKG on her and I've got it bending right in all the areas of the limb except a 8" area from the fades to mid-limb, in both limbs. I even worked on those knots a little bit and got them down to just a few rings around them (about 4), the rings in this hickory are tight.
Oh and the little hole where I carved the knot out is nice and flat with the rest of the belly so that gives me some hope!
I read in TBBI on tillering that if the tree built extra support on the back of the bow you don't need to worry about leaving extra wood on the belly. And in my limb there is a heck of a swell on the back right on that big knot, but just in case for now I'm going to leave a little wood on the belly side too.
Other than the stiff area where the knots are, both limbs are looking great! I'll keep you guys posted. I'm taking a break now after a few hours of shoveling yesterday's 5" of snow and 4 hours in the shop scraping away, I'm whooped lol. I'll get a few more hours in the shop in a little bit.
Um, hate to say it but that's my setup :)
Sometimes the answer to a prayer is "No". But I will say that I wasn't using the tree when it blew.
Haha, I thought that image looked familiar!
Another update, I worked and got both limbs to bend good with the EKG at 18" with the long string. Checked the weight and I was at about 35# at 18". So i think I am going to go with the short string next with a short brace.
I thinned the area of those knots down a little bit more with the rest of the limb but there is still a slight swell or build up in that area of the limb (I left it thicker for the knots).
I will try to get pictures of the 18" draw and the area before moving to the short string, which I don't know when that will be as during the week I work from daylight to dark and even had to work yesterday, so today was resting time!
Another question I have is last summer I went to my uncle's house in Maryland and got my hands on some white ash that he had cut down for firewood, and we cut out a 72" straight section with the least amount of knots possible. After splitting the section into staves, one skinny split occurred and followed the grain. So I have in my possession a not much bigger than 1" wide (I measured the width the entire length of the split) split section about 4" thick the entire length.
I was thinking maybe I could take this and turn it into a kid's D bow. That split section is like 1-1/4" wide at the most. Would it work? or is it too skinny. I figured as long as I kept the stave long and made a D-bow out of it I might be-able to get away with a bow, but if not then it's no big deal. What do you guys think? If I were to approach it how should I do the layout? I was thinking maybe like 1" wide to at least mid-limb then taper to like 1/4" or 3/8" width tips.
It should work
you could flip that ash stave on its side and treat it as a 1/4 sawn board, should still make a great bow!
so now you would have a board 4" wide and an inch thick, in fact you would get two bows out of it, side by side!
never done that, but 1/4 sawn hickory is used for backing strips all the time. i would think ash would perform the same!
*~* Another Update *~*
Because of the snow I was able to work on it yesterday and I got 'er to full brace height at 5-1/2" and start bending her. From what I can tell she's going to be lighter than I originally planned but oh well, it's better to have a lighter working bow than a 50# broken one!
So far, I know that knot area is still too stiff, but I want some opinions.
Here's the brace height picture:
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v352/Number01hunter/IMG_0299_zpsjrzsw9ml.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Number01hunter/media/IMG_0299_zpsjrzsw9ml.jpg.html)
And here's a video of my bending test out to 20".
http://vidmg.photobucket.com/albums/v352/Number01hunter/MVI_0300_zpsrzrqbixu.mp4
Here's the reason that first 1/3 of the limb on the right is stiff.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v352/Number01hunter/IMG_0301_zpsj0sugaww.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Number01hunter/media/IMG_0301_zpsj0sugaww.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v352/Number01hunter/IMG_0302_zpshajr25og.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Number01hunter/media/IMG_0302_zpshajr25og.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v352/Number01hunter/IMG_0303_zps1tl6pvjn.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Number01hunter/media/IMG_0303_zps1tl6pvjn.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v352/Number01hunter/IMG_0304_zpsn9bafgfq.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Number01hunter/media/IMG_0304_zpsn9bafgfq.jpg.html)
Is it ok to leave this area stiff? or should I take it down a little more and make it bend a little more than what it is? Do my fades look good?
How should I proceed?
Thanks,
Randy
maybe its my eyes ( or should I rather say - eye!!)mate- but not sure I really see a problem there
I see two little pin knots, and a grain island- that might have been a knot further into the tree- the pin knots would not worry me, but for the other- if I was really worried about it- I would put some silk on the back- I love silk backings- looks good, cheap insurance against a splinter lifting- and don't rob too much from the performance- other option is to rawhide the back- that will really help!!
now at this stage that may all feel a little daunting- but its super easy to do- and big peace of mind.
whether its needed or not?- only one way of finding out it was needed- shoot it till it breaks- then you will know you should have put some on :D :D :laughing:
it just seems you have put so much careful effort into this bow- I would hate to see you lose it now.
others with a lot more experience will chime in here for sure!
but you are doing it right- going slow- asking lots of questions- and yer learning stuff- that a straight forward bow would never have taught you ;) :D
cheers
wayne
If it were me, I'd keep going. Just don't pull it past your desired draw weight or length.
Thanks for the replies.
Fujimo, those knots were much bigger further into the limbs but I have worked them out to where they are now. And your right, I am taking it slow (maybe even too slow) but I feel like I should take every approach to ensure I am making the right decisions. And yes, perhaps the only way to learn these right directions is with knowledge and experience.
John, thanks and this bow is already lighter. I went to draw it to 50# after switching to full brace height seeing as how full brace height tiller wasn't too bad. And she was at 47# at 28" (I didn't go past 28") with the tiller still uneven (the right limb still being stiffer). So I am still going to lose weight working that limb down and getting it to bend more.
I'll probably end up with it being something like 40# @ 28" which is fine, like I said I'd rather have a lighter working bow than a heavy broken one. And besides I can always pike it, toast the belly, etc. to bring weight up. So I'm going to take a chance and am going to get both limbs bending evenly. If she blows then I'll know for the future whether or not to leave wood or not. I'll keep you guys posted.
Your fades look great; that's a nice smooth taper to the limbs. I'd just keep using the gizmo and get both limbs bending evenly. Like Wayne said, you can back it if you're worried about those knots. Cherry bark is my personal favorite, but silk or rawhide will do the job as well.
Oops...I didn't see your last post while I was typing mine. That's the attitude! :thumbsup:
Keep us posted.
Red Stage, I think you have a good eye for tiller.
I was going to say the inner limbs look stiff too.
A couple of points...
I long string tiller out to 10" looking for good limb bending and around my target bow weight or a little greater. It takes me a few hours to get there because I don't push it. I found that at 10" the target weight of the finshed bow is right on.
Knots should be tillered to appear stiff in relation to the rest of the limb...by just a little.
Jawge
~*Another Update!*~
Sorry it's been a little while, been busy with work, and finalizing the bow and now I am back to the work table building bow #3.
George, thanks for the input, yeah I learned that I kept this bow on the long string far too long and the end result was a bow too light. I will try your suggestion for bow #3.
Well this bow I have finalized, I worked the fade and knot area a little more to have an even bend with the other limb and suprisingly it didn't take too much wood to make a difference. I also piked an inch off of each limb to get some fps out of her and gained about 8 fps from doing so as well as a few pounds.
As of right now she stands at 43# @ 28"
I have since put about 100 arrows through her, and even put her up to the test with my chronograph. As of now she has taken about 1 1/2" of set and she is putting an overly stiff spine 545 grain arrow through the chrony at 138 fps on average.
I decided to try a lighter arrow and weaker spine. A 425 grain river cane arrow unfletched (bareshaft tuned) flew perfectly at a speed of 150. I am rather satisfied with that! Especially with a bow that is slightly over built, and with a low draw weight.
I think this bow is going to be a practice/target bow until I make one a little heavier in weight and properly built vs. overbuilt for my hunting bow. Right now I am in the process of applying several coats of Tung Oil on the bow and some shafts from Surewood Shafts. I am on coat 5 of 8 on the bow. When that's finished I have a piece of suede leather I will stitch into a nice grip and a bear hide strike plate from 3rivers to apply.
Then I will take pictures and post 'em!
Thanks for taking this ride along with me guys and helping me along the way! I know I have been quite obnoxious with the questions but I didn't want this bow to end up like my first (a pile of splinters).
The next bow is going to be hickory as well and I think I am going to change the design to 2" out to past mid limb before tapering to 1/2" knocks and try to get that 50 or 55# draw I'm looking for! Wish me luck! :thumbsup: :pray: :archer2:
if you wanted you could always pike the bow, and recover some of that draw weight.
excellent job man! :thumbsup:
All right guys pictures are in!
I had the pleasure of shooting this bow at the Dixie Bow shoot in Disputana, Virginia yesterday and the bow caught some attention!
I even ran it by the inspection of my teacher and mentor and he approved! So I am more than happy with this bow!
Here's the long awaited pictures!
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v352/Number01hunter/Hickory%20Staves%2008-24-2013/P3290467_zps4ltp7byl.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Number01hunter/media/Hickory%20Staves%2008-24-2013/P3290467_zps4ltp7byl.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v352/Number01hunter/Hickory%20Staves%2008-24-2013/P3290460_zpscesfhdov.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Number01hunter/media/Hickory%20Staves%2008-24-2013/P3290460_zpscesfhdov.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v352/Number01hunter/Hickory%20Staves%2008-24-2013/P3290461_zps9u35wwpt.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Number01hunter/media/Hickory%20Staves%2008-24-2013/P3290461_zps9u35wwpt.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v352/Number01hunter/Hickory%20Staves%2008-24-2013/P3290462_zpsbi9awkor.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Number01hunter/media/Hickory%20Staves%2008-24-2013/P3290462_zpsbi9awkor.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v352/Number01hunter/Hickory%20Staves%2008-24-2013/P3290463_zpsskurtkcg.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Number01hunter/media/Hickory%20Staves%2008-24-2013/P3290463_zpsskurtkcg.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v352/Number01hunter/Hickory%20Staves%2008-24-2013/P3290466_zpslygvo2lc.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Number01hunter/media/Hickory%20Staves%2008-24-2013/P3290466_zpslygvo2lc.jpg.html)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v352/Number01hunter/Hickory%20Staves%2008-24-2013/P3290464_zpsvt8pkzzz.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/Number01hunter/media/Hickory%20Staves%2008-24-2013/P3290464_zpsvt8pkzzz.jpg.html)
I stitched on a suede leather grip and added a bear hair rest from 3 rivers. Now I am in the works of tuning some douglas fir arrows to the bow and I'll be hunting with her this fall!
I once again would like to thank you guys for all the help and opinions! Couldn't have done it without you!
Good looking bow! Judging by the mounts behind you, I don't have to wish you much luck this fall. ;)
Nice work!
Thanks Takefive!
heh, I wish those were my mounts, they're my dads. Although the elk hide I have the bow laying on is mine but I took the elk non-traditional (rifle). And the bear is my dad's as well. :rolleyes:
So please wish me luck this fall! I'm going to try to change some things and hunt from the ground in a ghillie suit, try to be up close and personal to be effective with the self bow! :thumbsup: :archer: :archer2:
Great work on your bow! Hickory is some tough stuff, and seems to cooperate well with heating etc if needed.
Again, great job.
great bend on the piece of hickory, you did a fine job
Good luck to you this fall then, Randy. Hope you take a nice buck with the fine bow you made :thumbsup:
Oh yes. Very nice. Jawge
Thanks everybody!
I'm working on #3; some design changes I am going with the next one is going 2" wide out to about 1" past midlimb then tapering and this time I am going to go heavier, say 55# at 28" or so.
I've already got a few 'customers' if you will my father says he would like to have one for him. He's 6'4" and has about a 30" draw so for him the the bow I make for him is going to be full length of the stave (72").
My nephew loves the bow, I let him shoot it. I probably will make me and dad a bow with hunting weights and give this one to my nephew for his first self-bow. It will be an easy one for him to grow up into.