Have some black walnut I picked up. I have hickory or rawhide for backing. If I wanted a ELB which would be better. If I was going with a self bow which would be better. What are some of your designs preferences for black walnut. I have been a osage and yew bower for some time but glueing up anything more than sinew or rawhinde is new to me
Take this with a grain of salt, I've never built a walnut elb... But I only build wood backed lam bows and I favor the elb.. so a mildly educated guess...
I would say back it with ash or maple, if all you have is hickory, keep it thin. (3/16-1/8)
I don't have any experience with rawhide so I'll let someone else speak to them..
I like the self bow and if you do back it I like the rawhide or flax linen.
Stave or board???
Board. It was basicly a post 3X2x4ft. But it had really straight grain. I am going to try for a carriage hinge bow a take down. I have ripped it down to 2.5 wide by 1 inch deep x 36 (going for around 72 length. I have a piece to glue up for handle and fades. So I am on the fence as to trying a hickory backed ELB (I can get it down to 1/8), or a white wood design with goat or thicker cow rawhide. Dont have linen have not researched a source. So you think hickory may overpower the walnut belly.
My personal favorite uses for black walnut are cores sandwiched in a all wood tri lam bow,and handle n tip overlay/underlays etc...and NOT as belly wood....there's much better choices for a belly out there IMO
I would say that with proper tillering you should be fine. That being said, it may not be as forgiving through the process. I would suspect that it would make a good bow as long as you keep everything even, if the tiller is right, particularly if you let it bend through the handle, I don't think you would crush the back under normal use.
Like I said before, grain of salt.
Yes, hickory can easily overpower walnut bellies. I would thin the hickory to 1/16" or use something else. I tried walnut heartwood boards with 1/8" hickory backing strips and they all fretted, some sooner, some a little later. I don't think mine were wide enough or thin enough... made really good kindlin though :)
I still have some of that walnut board and will use it as cores in tri-lams or in glass bows.
A search of old posts I found one where black walnut was discussed and an over built design was suggested with hickory backing. Think that is the way I will go, I also have more experence with that design over ELB.
I will thin hickory and make overbuilt design.
Thanks for suggestions.
Jack, I have seen and shot 2 different black walnut bows. Both were pretty lookers!
One was made by John McCullough, backed with hickory. It was a fine shooter, and stood straight at rest. John said at the time, that hickory/walnut was a good combo, even for a beginner.
The other was a sinew backed walnut by Gary Davis. Both were made back in late 80's.
Look forward to what you build!
Good shootin,
Steve
I think you're one track with the overbuilding plan.
My opinion is that with any marginal bow wood, you need to be going wide, and long, with flat belly.
Regarding the hickory, thinning works, but trapping the back will have a much greater effect than thinning the hickory.
No matter how thin your backing is, the very outer surface of the backing is doing most of the work, so thinning a backing by 50% only reduces the backing's tension stiffness by maybe 10%. Trapping by 50%, reduces by nearly 50% .....
So I'm sure either method provides some protection against compression fracture, but mathematically at least, trapping is the superior method.
Thanks guys
So I went with the overbuilt/mear heath design. I thinned the hickory to 1/8 and have trapped the back. I have it almost to brace height 4 inches on the tiller board. It looks good so far no frets or other problems. I then toasted the belley and put it on my caul to maybe give it a little setback, but it came off the caul straight, which is fine. So I will start working it and getting it to draw lenth. I will try and post some pictures soon.
Looking forward to seeing this one in person.
Well here are some pictures of the walnut bow and the process to get to in the white. A trip to a couple of lumber stores in northern CO produced these finds
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n274/JackSkinner/Mobile%20Uploads/Bowbuilding2014051.jpg) (http://s114.photobucket.com/user/JackSkinner/media/Mobile%20Uploads/Bowbuilding2014051.jpg.html)
Nice hickory board, black walnut, and pucte. The pucte is going to be tried for shaft footings, it was a good looking wood, it was heavy (dense), and on sale the trifecta of arrow footing materal.
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n274/JackSkinner/Mobile%20Uploads/Bowbuilding2014056.jpg) (http://s114.photobucket.com/user/JackSkinner/media/Mobile%20Uploads/Bowbuilding2014056.jpg.html)
The hickory rip in two to make two bows and I will take a slice from one for my backing for walnut
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n274/JackSkinner/Mobile%20Uploads/Bowbuilding2014057.jpg) (http://s114.photobucket.com/user/JackSkinner/media/Mobile%20Uploads/Bowbuilding2014057.jpg.html)
My first thought on walnut was elb but as above in post went with over built
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n274/JackSkinner/Mobile%20Uploads/Bowbuilding2014055.jpg) (http://s114.photobucket.com/user/JackSkinner/media/Mobile%20Uploads/Bowbuilding2014055.jpg.html)
Here I had it layed out for elb take down hinge but cut splice and glued up handle and hickory back
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n274/JackSkinner/Mobile%20Uploads/Bowbuilding2014067.jpg) (http://s114.photobucket.com/user/JackSkinner/media/Mobile%20Uploads/Bowbuilding2014067.jpg.html)
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n274/JackSkinner/Mobile%20Uploads/Bowbuilding2014069.jpg) (http://s114.photobucket.com/user/JackSkinner/media/Mobile%20Uploads/Bowbuilding2014069.jpg.html)
Well here are some pictures of the walnut bow and the process to get to in the white. A trip to a couple of lumber stores in northern CO produced these finds
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n274/JackSkinner/Mobile%20Uploads/Bowbuilding2014051.jpg) (http://s114.photobucket.com/user/JackSkinner/media/Mobile%20Uploads/Bowbuilding2014051.jpg.html)
Nice hickory board, black walnut, and pucte. The pucte is going to be tried for shaft footings, it was a good looking wood, it was heavy (dense), and on sale the trifecta of arrow footing materal.
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n274/JackSkinner/Mobile%20Uploads/Bowbuilding2014056.jpg) (http://s114.photobucket.com/user/JackSkinner/media/Mobile%20Uploads/Bowbuilding2014056.jpg.html)
The hickory rip in two to make two bows and I will take a slice from one for my backing for walnut
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n274/JackSkinner/Mobile%20Uploads/Bowbuilding2014057.jpg) (http://s114.photobucket.com/user/JackSkinner/media/Mobile%20Uploads/Bowbuilding2014057.jpg.html)
My first thought on walnut was elb but as above in post went with over built
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n274/JackSkinner/Mobile%20Uploads/Bowbuilding2014055.jpg) (http://s114.photobucket.com/user/JackSkinner/media/Mobile%20Uploads/Bowbuilding2014055.jpg.html)
Here I had it layed out for elb take down hinge but cut splice and glued up handle and hickory back
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n274/JackSkinner/Mobile%20Uploads/Bowbuilding2014067.jpg) (http://s114.photobucket.com/user/JackSkinner/media/Mobile%20Uploads/Bowbuilding2014067.jpg.html)
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n274/JackSkinner/Mobile%20Uploads/Bowbuilding2014069.jpg) (http://s114.photobucket.com/user/JackSkinner/media/Mobile%20Uploads/Bowbuilding2014069.jpg.html)
Sorry about double post
Here is the walnut in meare heath shape and a ishe, as well as Comstock design hickory
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n274/JackSkinner/Mobile%20Uploads/Bowbuilding2014070.jpg) (http://s114.photobucket.com/user/JackSkinner/media/Mobile%20Uploads/Bowbuilding2014070.jpg.html)
Here all three have been tillered to about brace height and then bellies toasted and clamped to caul
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n274/JackSkinner/Mobile%20Uploads/Bowbuilding2014079.jpg) (http://s114.photobucket.com/user/JackSkinner/media/Mobile%20Uploads/Bowbuilding2014079.jpg.html)
Well after trying to get the walnut backed with hickory to draw weight/length one thing was for sure
Those woods worked well together. Maybe a little to well. In its MH design I would have to shoot it in the 90 lb range, not happen. The belly was getten mighty thin and still way heavy. So believing in lisening to bow as to its design not just what I thought I wanted the bow took its second design change. I began to narrow the limb width and work belly as well as trapping hickory backing. That worked and it came In at 60@27 I can live with that.
So I would say it is somewhat Comstock's idea of good hunting bow from his book the bent stick. I am really begining to appreaciate that design and starting to narrow my tips more and more. Anyway here is the bow in the "white" and at full draw
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n274/JackSkinner/Mobile%20Uploads/Bowbuilding2014092.jpg) (http://s114.photobucket.com/user/JackSkinner/media/Mobile%20Uploads/Bowbuilding2014092.jpg.html)
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n274/JackSkinner/Mobile%20Uploads/Bowbuilding2014094.jpg) (http://s114.photobucket.com/user/JackSkinner/media/Mobile%20Uploads/Bowbuilding2014094.jpg.html)
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n274/JackSkinner/Mobile%20Uploads/Bowbuilding2014101.jpg) (http://s114.photobucket.com/user/JackSkinner/media/Mobile%20Uploads/Bowbuilding2014101.jpg.html)
Looks good. Always wondered how a bow of that design shoots. Have you shot it much?
I have shot it three evenings in a row now. It is shooting great, but Bowjunkie may have been correct about frets. I am seeing some micro frets on one limb I suppose time will tell. I am going to drop weight little and thin tips some more and hope for best.
Anybody once frets start is it all over?
One of the Bowyer's Bible volumes has a little bit on stopping frets from spreading. It mentions taking a little wood off toward the tips if the frets are above that (mid limb or outer mid limb, if that makes any sense). Also an odd trick of putting small pin holes around the fret to take some of the pressure off of the wood. I tried it on a hickory board bow that had a few very small chrysals (overstressed design I think) and it seems to work, but I also don't shoot that bow regularly. I made a hickory backed cherry bow once that started to fret and they just gradually got worse, to the point where I retired it. Hope you get 'em to stop 'cuz that a neat looking bow.
So I got the walnut bow finished and took it to a 3D shoot this weekend. Well the bow shot great, me not so well, I even had two guys I shoot with quite a bit compliment me on the bows cast. They were correct for the design it really cast a flat arrow. I even shot high throughout the event, just not used to the flat cast. For the meare heath/pyrimid design it was lite in hand with little hand shock. So my interest in walnut as bow wood is piqued. Now the bad there is fretting on one bow limb but not the other, so not sure if bow design needs tweeking or my tiller. But for sure more walnut bows will be in my future.
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n274/JackSkinner/Mobile%20Uploads/Bowbuilding2014001.jpg) (http://s114.photobucket.com/user/JackSkinner/media/Mobile%20Uploads/Bowbuilding2014001.jpg.html)
Walnut on left then a couple of pyrimid/Comstock style bows and a Ishie style I just finished
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n274/JackSkinner/Mobile%20Uploads/Bowbuilding2014002.jpg) (http://s114.photobucket.com/user/JackSkinner/media/Mobile%20Uploads/Bowbuilding2014002.jpg.html)
Couple more
(http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n274/JackSkinner/Mobile%20Uploads/Bowbuilding2014007-1.jpg)[/URL
[URL=http://s114.photobucket.com/user/JackSkinner/media/Mobile%20Uploads/Bowbuilding2014005-1.jpg.html] (http://i114.photobucket.com/albums/n274/JackSkinner/Mobile%20Uploads/Bowbuilding2014005-1.jpg) (http://s114.photobucket.com/user/JackSkinner/media/Mobile%20Uploads/Bowbuilding2014007-1.jpg.html)
Glad to hear you're enjoying your new bows.
My advice is simple on the walnut .... go wider next time.
Whatever your width was, just add like 15% or something.
It shouldn't increase mass very much but should give you lots of durability.
Good luck.
Yep I was thinking wider and maybe maple or some other backing, then hope that combo will shoot as well as walnut/hickory but without the fretting.
Not a bad plan going to maple either, although staying with hickory and trapping the back slightly is another reasonable option.
Good looking bows :thumbsup:
I trapped it some but I think I could have been more aggressive with that. I had never tried it before and was a little hesitant. Have planes for three bows of walnut if I can find good board, and will try a couple of different things with each. A maple back on one, more trapping on another and a D bow design on the third. But it will have to wait for later in summer or next bow making (winter) season.
Best solution to the problem: get some better wood for a belly....like osage ;) ....frets r bad and IMO there is no way to totally fix em....dont know how bad yours is...but its likely it'll get worse,and possibly just fold up and break if continued to use it...once a bow frets its literally nothing but firewood to me
Yep Mockingbird I'm with you. Before this past winter I built almost exclusively with osage. But living in a bow wood desert and staves and shipping being what they are now, I have been experimenting with woods I can get at the lumber store. I am pretty sure this walnut will fail sooner than later, but I learned a lot and have a few hickory bows for back up (and of course osgae). I do like a challenge though and if I run into another good walnut board I going to give it another try, because it sure shoots sweet.