This bow is for Mr.**** ,
Kelly, You did good. Thanks for all the advise and tips.
With just over a year of experience in making bows, I know enough to just get myself into trouble. So if anyone sees something that looks questionable to them please let me know.
My first thought for Mr.**** was a horn and sinew bow. But I would be cutting it close and if it failed then what? I only have to June. I do have the Asian steppe bow I could redo the sinew the that got chewed on by something down in the basement. But it still requires seasoning.
This leaves me with an all wood laminate bow. I think if I follow the 1- 1.5% rule for wood I can make a good solid composite lever bow. I have been looking at PA's bow gallery and James Parker has some horn bows that could be converted to an all wood laminate bow.
http://s28.photobucket.com/user/coaster500/slideshow/Bow%20Racks%20Members%20of%20Primative%20Archery/?albumview=slideshow
tile 17, 6th bow down looks doable
Over at atarn one topic by Pat Menzies has a picture of one that I have wanted to try for awhile.
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His bow is ipe and has a ash backing with nice levers.
Then there is blackhawks lever bows over at PA and I do have one piece of yew that has seasoned for a little over a year. And one osage stave.
Mr. **** was a little vague in his likes and needs so I think I will try the bow in the picture if that does not survive I do have some options.
Well mr scars i definetly dont have one like that... And it would be cool. I have also drooled over blackhawks lever bows... So if youre tryin to make ME happy youre on the right track!
That certainly is a interesting bow.
Anyone would be happy with that design.
I never realized How many Mr. **** there were until I entered the bow swap. :bigsmyl: Almost as common as $*&$%#.
Scars I can't wait to see this one come to life. Good luck and happy building.
QuoteOriginally posted by Echatham:
Well mr scars i definetly dont have one like that... And it would be cool. I have also drooled over blackhawks lever bows... So if youre tryin to make ME happy youre on the right track!
LOL I drool when I sleep now.
Blackhawks' bow are mostly selfbows I told Kelly I would make a wood composite. But if panic sets in. You never know.
I was just out in the shop drawing the bow core onto some Ipe. It looks like I can get 15"-16" of active limb. With a siyah of 8" I think I will be under the 1%.
And Eric this could be your bow If at a later date you see it backed and bellied with pvc. Then you will know....
:laughing: ill be watching!
Yes I was a little vague in my likes and needs...but I like and need that!
That's a beautiful design, and the one I am most comfortable shooting. Finish it with a nice thin leather or snakeskin wrap and send her to me!
QuoteOriginally posted by macbow:
That certainly is a interesting bow.
Anyone would be happy with that design.
Thanks Macbow,
I'd be happy with that big ole set of horns in your picture.
QuoteOriginally posted by redbeard126:
Yes I was a little vague in my likes and needs...but I like and need that!
Aren't we all redbeard, But subtleness will get you nowhere. Man I got this picture of you with a long flowing red beard blowing in the wind right across the fletchings as you release the arrow :archer:
QuoteOriginally posted by halfseminole:
That's a beautiful design, and the one I am most comfortable shooting. Finish it with a nice thin leather or snakeskin wrap and send her to me!
halfSeminole I'm not sure if I could add two more limbs to this one. Thought you liked those four limbed helicopter bows that gets drawn coast to coast.
QuoteOriginally posted by KellyG:
Scars I can't wait to see this one come to life. Good luck and happy building.
Thanks Kelly :goldtooth: I'm really enjoying this.
Very nice..
Eh, I'll try making one of those myself. I've got pics of myself with my PVC horse bow around here somewhere, but I gave that to my brother, since he shoots targets and needed a new bow. I learned thumb rings somewhere, didn't I?
halfseminole
You Shoot with a thumbring? I have a leather, a brass one and a PVC ring. Believe it or not the PVC is my favorite.
Okay, on to the build. I will get the pictures up then explain my thought processes.
Everything is cut to rough block dimensions. I will do a glue up tonight.
first pic an over all mock up
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this pic is a close up of the handle
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next two pictures are both siyahs
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So after looking at this picture for a long time I reakly couldn't see how he glued his siyahs to the limb. I believe I can vaguely see a fish tail joint on the belly, but the back is squared off. My conclusion he added gussets to each side of the V on the back.
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I changed the sals so I would have less time doing the rasping sanding and all the tweaking needed. At the eye I will either make a fish tail or a W joint where it attaches to the limb. The belly side is going to be visible so I need to decide if I want more contrast with the W joint or a cleaner, simple look with a single V.
I used flat sawn Ipe dadoed into the maple to make another contrast and to keep more of a I beam look to help add strength.
Most of the handle will be covered with the grip. I kept that true to Pats picture.
The limbs or sals are 1 3/8" wide 5/16" thick at the handle fade, and 3/16" at the kasan.
Tonight I will glue the handle on and glue up the parts of the siyahs. When they are cured I will cut the joint to connect them to the limbs.
scars
Scars,
Never seen one of these built gonna be a treat watching your progress!
Cory
Heartlandbowyer,
I've made 3 sinew back horn bows but never made a all wood horse bow. They say a bow is 9-10ths broken. So I will certainly be pushing my skills to the limits with this one. The Ipe is one of the straightest grain I have ever had. The hickory backing came from a batch that has never gave me any heartache. So with salt over my shoulder I'm going for it.
Yeah, I shoot thumb or pinch style, depending on my arthritis that day. Thumbring is easier on my hands, but I haven't found one I like after losing my bone one in the move out here. Thought about making a rawhide one, as all the bone I have now is too small, and I don't have a horn of the right size I can sacrifice. It might have to be PVC for me, as well. I have very long fingers, so I had one I made that I really liked, as all the others were short. I learned long ago how to shoot with the shelf "normal" and not fling arrows everywhere, so there's that. My horsebow had a bent PVC rest on either side for convenience. Think I want a new one of those.
QuoteOriginally posted by Roy from Pa:
Very nice..
Thanks Roy,
Siyahs and Handles glued and ready to put into the hot box.
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QuoteOriginally posted by halfseminole:
Yeah, I shoot thumb or pinch style, depending on my arthritis that day. Thumbring is easier on my hands, but I haven't found one I like after losing my bone one in the move out here. Thought about making a rawhide one, as all the bone I have now is too small, and I don't have a horn of the right size I can sacrifice. It might have to be PVC for me, as well. I have very long fingers, so I had one I made that I really liked, as all the others were short. I learned long ago how to shoot with the shelf "normal" and not fling arrows everywhere, so there's that. My horsebow had a bent PVC rest on either side for convenience. Think I want a new one of those.
I think you were standing at the bottom of some stairs with it drawn. No, I remember you had it drawn your arrow point nock point and elbow lined up straight and looked good.
My leather was the first I still have it. The brass one never fit right use to dig into my thumb. So I copied the style of the brass ring onto some 1" PVC cut the nock into the ring base and split the top of the ring removed about 1/4" then heated it up with the heat gun and shape fit it to wrap around my thumb. It does not dig into the top of my thumb and I can shoot it all day.
Looks like I got some good clean lines and the tips are parallel.
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Depending on how I feel after work tomorrow I will get these cleaned up, cut off what is not needed on the siyahs. Then decide on double fishtail or single.
scars you have any pictures of that pvc thumbring, would love to make one myself.
thanks
wayne
QuoteOriginally posted by fujimo:
scars you have any pictures of that pvc thumbring, would love to make one myself.
thanks
wayne
Here you go fujimo:
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First pic shows nock
the rest are just perspective
I choose my nock to be on the back edge it's at the meat of my thumb and I guess foreknuckle I get to feel my arrows nock and with the fore finger I feel the fletches. At release I just relax thumb, fore finger and middle finger. The ring finger and pinky are holding a pretend eggshell without breaking it in the base of my palm.
Once sanded the tips really look good. I drew my lines cut the side profile I think will work with this blank. The glue line on the handle is almost invisible however it is really bulky. The blank and handles thickness is 2 1/4" ripped half the glue off it is now 1 3/4" thick. I rasp a facet on the tips on both side all the way to the fishtail. Will do more shaping once glued up and backing is applied.
I am almost regretting not making this little bow a hornbow with a sinew back. There is no twist, I have not had to do one thing to correct anything. She is almost putting herself together.
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The tips look long I like to leave them that way until strung. I will adjust when I start tiller and shooting it in.
Pretty cool project scars! I`m excited to see how this all wood version works!
Will you glue in some more re- or deflex when adding the back and belly round the core? You could get some perry in it when you do the glue ups one after another. Maybe this would really help the woods to stand the enormous forces in the short working areas by distribution tension better through limbs thickness!
Ed. I like the idear of the two-piece siyah! Another alternative to plywood or natural grown pieces...
That is absolutely beautiful. I wish I had the money to buy a bow from you. Sadly, that probably won't ever be the case. On the slim chance I get it, you're pretty much the list of who I'd want to buy from.
By the way, this is the picture you mentioned. PVC with red oak siyahs.
(https://scontent-a-atl.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/t1/1069961_10151498649317540_692399785_n.jpg)
Sorry to hijack your thread. You were trying to recall the pic, so I reposted it.
Moe,
I don't know what it is about these little bows but everything about them fascinates me. Once I have one to brace I run my hands over them like long lost friends that have finally found there way home. Sad I know.
Also Moe,
I am worried about the forces on this one. If I do anything it will have deflex. Sam Harpers bamboo recurve has come to mind. Perry's reflex is for stock that has some good thickness to work with. And I believe that for a trad swap bow the longevity of the bow should be one of the factors for consideration. More than likely I will not put any r/d. Pats bow has none and although I have increased the angle of the siyah. I think it is still within the parameters of his style. So I will maintain as much as needed to keep it that way. To be practical this is just a very short hickory backed ipe bow with levers added, all said and done it should work out nicely.
QuoteOriginally posted by halfseminole:
That is absolutely beautiful. I wish I had the money to buy a bow from you. Sadly, that probably won't ever be the case. On the slim chance I get it, you're pretty much the list of who I'd want to buy from.
By the way, this is the picture you mentioned. PVC with red oak siyahs.
(https://scontent-a-atl.xx.fbcdn.net/hphotos-frc3/t1/1069961_10151498649317540_692399785_n.jpg)
Sorry to hijack your thread. You were trying to recall the pic, so I reposted it.
Yep that's the one I was thinking of. To be honest, with your draw length I think a glass backed self or 2 wood lam bow would be the most economical choice for you. Horse bows of the older styles like Crimean-tatar, The older mongol style or Magyar with the long straighter tips. The Korean bow could work green bamboo to make the core.
2 pieces of belly horn 26" to 30" is hard to find unless it was gemsbok and then to obtain a good stave with no knots.
I've made 30 to 40 bows and broke 2-3 times that many. And still don't have the skill or knowledge to feel justified in selling bows. I give them away. The ones that broke I burn unless they had interesting breaks or I keep the ones that I have not figured out why they broke.
I am rambling on, But I have been thinking, And its all your fault. When I first seen that photo I thought. If you took some pvc pipe 3 or 4". Rip a couple of strips at say 1 1/2 " wide flatten it with heat, would it make a good belly or backing? Some day I am going to find out. If it does I'll let you know. But it will have to wait for now. I have 2 bows for friends a bow for my brother and at work a coworker has a sisters son that shoot his bow I made for him and would like me to make one for him.
Well it looks like I'm not going to glue any parts up on this swap bow tonite.
And no you did not hijack this thread. Your comments always make me think I enjoy that.
Hey scars, I didn`t think about the perry with thicker stock to work down but I remember about another way he wrote about to bring the tension off the surfaces.
If I remember right it was about doing two glue ups- the first giving a form against the final.
E.g. glueing deflex and then bring in reflex or even make it straight with the final layer.
The bow is looking Great!
Yes Moe I understand what you are talking about. But this bow lacks some criteria for some of Dans inspiration. The tips will have to much mass, granted the reflex would still assist in the active limbs and using hickory for the backing would be a positive. However If you look at the mock up of the side profile and if I cut off half of the ipe tips cut my nocks 25,4mm. I would still be 5 inches in front of the back of the bow. To get it to brace 6.5 to 7 inches more, then draw pull of say 27" that is 39 inches of stored and possible released energy.
Now take into account even Dan Perry will say that over time his technique will weaken the lower limb.
So if I put two inches of reflex into 2 layers of Lams Perry style then I glue my hickory backing on at a neutral ( or unstressed state). That would increase my potential energy to 41".
From the nock to the kasan eye I will have 13 inches of static tips and my active limb or sal is 15 inches. 15 inches to create 41 inches of potential? I think it would blow up.
Now lets look at keeping every thing the same except when we get to the glue up of the backing we induce 4 inches of deflex. I can see it reducing tension at draw but I also see it increasing tip speed at release.
But I also see another problem arising. With putting perry into two lams in reflex then putting deflex into it. We are inducing perry in reverse. Like Adam Karpowicxz puts a maple staves crown in reverse to make his ottomans. Now back to the top if this message I mentioned that Perry admits that his procedure causes lower limb stress over time. I can see this bow surviving the tillering process and the shoot in of 200 arrows but what then? I see the lower limb breaking after I send it to Mr ****. Not a pleasant visual. If I was making it for me I would chance it. Wood is 1% to 1.5% of reaching it break point. horn 4% Glass I don't know but I believe it is more. I am going to glue a safty backing on to this bow on top of the working backing, because I feel that I will be cutting it close on the woods percentage.
After thinking about Perry reflex for the last couple of days. You are making want to build a bow with with it. A four hundred yard shooter would be a nice achievement.
QuoteOriginally posted by Cyclic-Rivers:
The bow is looking Great!
Thanks, Cyclic
I just glued the siyahs to the limbs tonight. Tomorrow I will glue the backing on. Since I am using a two piece backing I will also put the overlay on the backing.
Scars I have wondered about cutting and flattening PVC my self. If it works call it poor mans horn.
Can PVC be glued to wood?
Been thinking about that and I can't come up with an answer.
Dave.
To Kelly and wood carver 2
Yes it can. I used it on a couple of tips. Also mellame is a vinyl product used on shelving stock and edges. Same lam glues work on both, unibond 800.
I have tried abs pipe as a backing and frp both failed. The abs pipe has a closed cell structure and it was fretting even as a backing. The FRP had no elasticity pulled itself apart. I have never tried either as a belly horn substitute. I think the ABS would just collapse not even crush. Cell structure not even compatible. The FRP would just fret and turn to powder it has a very dry type of plastic composition. The pvc pipe does have some good promise, as a pipe bow material it does work. At the moment I have some pvc scedule 20. One of these day I'll try it out and let you know. We will never know till it is tested.
The fish tail joints looked good after last nights glue up. Moe has really got me thinking about introducing some Perry reflex. All day long at work that's all I have been running through my head. The different things that could go wrong, what I could do to reduce that possibility. And so on and so forth. So tonight I cleaned up the joints reduced the width. Then started to flex the limbs to see how much resistance there was in each limb. Looked at it some more the decided to put it on the long line. I worked it for maybe 50 to 60 pulls eye balled it down the limbs, checking for set, no set. Now you gotta note I'm doing this with no backing. So I am doing this as gentle as possible. I decide to go to a 3" brace and it holds I look down the belly the string holds true down the center. I work it another 50- 60 pulls.
So that's where I am at. At the moment with no tillering bandsaw kerf ridges and all, at the fades I have 3 3/16" on one limb and 3 5/16" on the other. There is about a 1/2" of difference in tip levels and the arcs are real close to even stresses. I am starting to lean towards adding one inch to one and a half inches of reflex at backing glue up. So I am at a stand still till I figure out where to go from here. More tomorrow.
This has been very interesting to follow so far! I look forward to seeing the results and hearing your conclusion to this build. Thanks for taking us along.
Sorry scars- didn`t intend to cause you headache!
(and I don`t want to lead you on a wrong track)
Can`t wait to see more pics....
I've got some preflattened PVC sheet here. In fact, I can make a BUNCH of it if someone wants to try it. I use it in prop building (which is how I make what little money I get, that and sculpting/carving) and it's pretty flexible, but part of what imparts the strength is the curve of the material itself. I dunno what it would be like grooved for a horn bow, but I'm willing to see if I can make one, if I can find the wood. I have the sinew as well, or I can make some up and send it to someone to try (they'd have to pay shipping, I'm flat busted-my disability has still not been approved and I haven't sold enough lately) but I'm planning a new PVC bow as we speak anyway. It seems to be the material I have the best luck with.
LOL PVC facings as substitute for horn would be the joke of the year... cool!
But isn`t it hard to glue especially with wood?
Pheonixarcher
Thanks welcome to the blog.
To all,
Criticism is help. Tips tricks and advice always helps.
Moe
No headache a little saw dust can't cure.
I also have no idea if PVC will work as a backing or as a belly substitute. I do know that however good it may be as a low cost alternative it is photo sensitive so it wood have to be covered.
Adams book talks about making the wood core convex on the belly side and shapeing the horn to a concave profile that's mates to the core. I think that is how the PVC would have the best chance of success. Basically a rounded belly.
So I will post the pictures then explain them:
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The first picture shows the V splice. I decided to sand the point of the splice flat up about one inch. My thoughts on that, figured with 3 sides glued it would be stronger. The backing is also shaped to fit around this area as a gusset and to assist the core, siyah glue up.
Second picture shows the dry fit.
Third picture shows more weight reduction of the siyahs.
HalfSeminole
I have a Kentucky Coffee tree stave roughed out and siyahs glued in place. No horn no sinew on it. It is yours if you post the results of your PVC testing.
Nice build going and thanks for posting it. One of these days I'm gonna give it a try.
I'm doing some further reading, but my initial thoughts are that it would fail over time, not spectacularly all at once. PVC is viscoelastic. As horn is a fibrous material, and keratin itself is both flexible and slightly stretchy, we have a materials mismatch. My initial research (I have more white papers to read) leads me to think it doesn't have a snowball's chance in a microwave, but I'm gonna do some more experimenting here anyway. I have an awful lot of the stuff.
Bumping this with a real find-the entire translated Saracen Archery. It's long, so settle in for a while. I speak a bit of Arabic, but the culture I understand a bit better (read the qu'ran in Arabic, for my theology classes) so if something obscure is confusing, I'll answer as far as I'm able-some still escapes me.
http://pgmagirlscouts.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/saracen_archery.pdf
The URL looks fake, but it's the real thing. Figured those interested in this style would like the definitive treatise on Turkish archery.
I've always wanted to make the cross bow in there.
Ya I'm not to optimistic about PVC. I do want to give it and honest attempt but only after I get done with all the other bows I want to try and make.
I do have my backing glued on will take pictures this week end. On Call work has really spoiled my play time during the work week.
I glued my backing on with one inch of reflex.
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Narrowed the tips some more.
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I have never seen anyone post this so I figured I would.
This is a sheetrock tape, but not fiberglass. It is called fiberfuse and you can get it at homedepot. Next to the paper and fiberglass sheetrock tape.
I've used it on a couple of bows and it looks a bit like raw hide if used with TB3. And it makes a good safety backing.
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Time to glue it on and then I will post the results.
If you want some nice thin deer rawhide, I could send you some.
Not interfering , just offering :D .
QuoteOriginally posted by fujimo:
If you want some nice thin deer rawhide, I could send you some.
Not interfering , just offering :D .
Heck, with that kind of interfering, interfere all you want :) I wanted to use this type of backing to just give an option instead of fiberglass tape. Also I wanted to have a safety backing so I can start to tiller. I have plans of using some birch bark on the finishing touches.
PM me what you would like for enough for a couple of bows.
re:
what is this sheetrock tape? really wonder. it is not drywall tape isn't it?
can you give us some more sample that you made on bow?
QuoteOriginally posted by inksoup:
re:
what is this sheetrock tape? really wonder. it is not drywall tape isn't it?
can you give us some more sample that you made on bow?
Yes, it is just drywall tape. In locations where mold is prevalent. It helps to reduce the chance of mold growth.
This is the only bow I have pictures of that I used fiberfuse underneath the skins.
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Here is Mr.**** bow blank with the safety backing glued on and a piece of clarified deer raw hide laying across the backing to compare.
Not a perfect match but close, for a person wanting to try out making a bow but not wanting to spend the money on rawhide it is a better product then the fiberglass sheetrock tape.
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I will let the blank dry for a few days before I start to tiller.
Scars looking good thanks for the tip on a backing option.
Thanks Kelly
I tried fiberglass sheetrock tape once and sanded it off the next day. Figured this would work better or at least look better.
Next on Mr. **** bow, make a tillering string and get it on the vice. I have also been thinking about making some bamboo arrows to go with her.
How do you make a footed bamboo arrow? I'll have to think on that one.
Long sigh,,,
I have not done anything on her this week.
Nice bows Scars,particularly the one on the tailgate.Course the other one ain't finished.
QuoteOriginally posted by Jorgy:
Nice bows Scars,particularly the one on the tailgate.Course the other one ain't finished.
The guy who has that bow sits on his porch and tries to shoot pocket gophers in his yard. :)
If I remember right it is 47# at 28", 54" n2n, gemsbok horn belly, sinew under cobra skin.
Today I tillered Mr. ****s bow, Shot sixty arrows though her. Shaped the handle area. Tomorrow I will do some more shaping sanding and shoot some more arrows. Post pictures tomorrow.
Can't wait!
Yeah me neither!
as above x3.
Sorry did not do any detail work on the bow. Spent the day installing a new well pump. I'm beat.