Ok, so the ipe backed redoak board bow was a bust. Fortunately, at this point I've had so many bows fail that I now only try to make them out of wood that I can barbecue with. At least that way I'm not just filling the garage with wood chips. So, in keeping with that mindset, here are some pictures of my latest wannabe. (http:%20%20https://www.dropbox.com/sc/i78ct23m5deylvg/yLAdsDUb7W%20%20/)
If I did that right you should now be looking at pictures of a pecan stave (and my backyard on a rainy Texas day.) Now I obviously don't know much about this, but this looks like a pretty good stave to me. I'm hoping to get at least one good flat bow out of it. I'd like it to be 5'6" maximum, and pull 50# at 27". I ralize that this is a tall order for a first time bowyer, but I have a specific reason for wanting this bow. You see, hogs can be hard to kill, and the only bow I currently own is a takedown recurve my wife gave me as a gift. I'd rather not scratch it up by dragging it through the rocks and brambles that our friendly South Texas terrain has to offer. So, how bout it, folks? Anyone feel like holding my hand while I fumble my way through this one? Please!
I'm sure you'll get all the advice you need here. Just keep posting pics of your progress and people will chime in.
a flat bow of 66" and 50# @ 27" should be doable with pecan. I can't imagine why not. I'd probably go 2" wide to mid limb then taper to 3/8" tips.
8" stiff handle section or so.
I'm sure some of the more avid selfbow guys will chime in here too so just hang in there.
Your stave looks awful weathered, has it been stored outside in the elements.....Art
Good call art. That may be for the smoker and not for the bow bench.
Might be good inside. I'd try it just for the practice. Never know, you may get a shooter 1st time!
American Electric Power is going to cut a pecan that resides in my back yard. My late Father planted it years ago. If I have to let them cut it, I too will be working some pecan in the future.
Good luck & keep us posted!
My favorite part of working with hickory is that heat treating it produces a smell very much like roasted hickory nuts. It's quite enjoyable. I imagine pecan is very similar in that regard.
The stave was cut from a neighbor's yard about four years ago. It has been sitting on rack in a carport since then. I only recently moved it outside where the pictures were taken. So it has not been exposed to direct sunlight or rain except for the last three weeks or so. But it has been out in the heat (which is considerable here in south central TX) and the cold(which is never much below freezing). There doesn't seem to be any visible splitting or checking on the stave at all. But then again I haven't taken the bark off yet. What exactly would I be looking for to tell me if I have a good or bad stave? The bark is still holding tight to the wood, and the stave has some pretty good weight to it, so it's not rotten or desiccated. And it's also fairly large, so a lot of what's shown in the picture can be shaved off.
Cut you a sliver off and do a bend/break test. Hickory will take a great bend before collapsing, but not break entirely. If it's bad, it'll break fairly quick........Art
Ok, Art. I did the bend break test and here are the results: (//http%20%20https://www.dropbox.com/sc/8cao24pusztzswm/od205c_eTn%20%20//). Soooo, now what? I'm dying to sharpen up the drawknife and start taking the bark off this bad boy, so I'm sure that that's the wrong thing to do. And I'm wondering if I couldn't get two bows out of this stave? It's 7' feet long, one end is a triangle 5 1/2"x5 1/2". The other end is shaped kind of like a crescent with a flat top. 7" on the bark side and about 4" through the center plane. How would I go about splitting that. Or should I just leave well enough alone and go for one bow? I won't be making a single move until one (or more) of you experienced guys sounds off. I'm tired of scrapping these bows. It's time to shoot one.
Bend test looks OK. Might as well give it a go.
Last chuck of hickory I had was 5 1/2" wide also and I sawed two staves out of it. But it didn't have any bark on it and things were much easier to judge. Got two staves 1 3/4" in width. But the back was kinda flat to start with. More crown means less width. So, if you want two staves, you're going to have to saw/kerf dead down the center. Here's how to find the center:
Removing that bark is probably going to test your patience with a draw knife but that's where you should start. Once the bark is removed, and if no defects to work around, then clean up the stave's sides to where you have at least 5/8" reveal on the side(s). This will help give you the exact center of the stave. Mark each end and straight edge. Once sawn/split, and allowing for a side reveal on the staves' other sides, will give you a good idea of their widths.
Quick question. Am I taking off the bark skin also. It kinda cool looking and I was wondering if it isn't like a built in backing. Thanks.- RD
That's the cambium layer. It's OK to leave some here and there for a camo effect, but basically you want to remove most of it.......Art
Now how did I know you were gonna say that. For twenty years I've been framing houses and I don't know if my hands have ever been this tired. Drawknives are way more labor intensive than nail guns. And pecan is much tougher than oak. Labor of love though, right? Three hours I've been shucking bark. Tomorrow I'll take off the cambium and cut the two individual staves. Btw, how should I cut this thing? I have a bandsaw, but it kinda sucks; I'd need a larger blade for it anyway. Is that the tool to use here? That's probably my only option. The stave itself is straight as a Nebraska highway if you look up the bark side or along the point of the wedge. But turn it on its side and it has a 2-1/2" crown, cup on the bark side. A lot of this should come out when I cut it to length, I would imagine. I'll post pics so that you smarter than me types can throw in your two cents on the subject. And Art, thanks so much for your guidance. You've been a Godsend on this thing. I swear if we ever meet in person I'm gonna kiss you on both cheeks. (don't worry, I hardly ever leave TX.) (https://www.dropbox.com/sc/0vndje4gbl19zfc/A-tOp05sQH)
One way to spit it is to run a chalk line down the back and cut a kerf with a power saw.
Then use wedges etc to split it.
It takes a good bandsaw to handle a large stave.
I have a 12" Craftsman bandsaw with 1/2" 4 TPI blade that will handle that. But if yours is less than 1 HP it would be best to kerf and split with a circular saw as Madcow suggested.
But if you do decide to go the bandsaw route, square up the stave's base for better control on the saw. And it'll reduce cutting material making it easier on the saw also..........Art
We'll... I got the cambium off and cleaned up the edges some, and some issues became apparent. First of all there's a couple of nasty knots along the right side of the stave, so I don't think I'll be getting two bows out of it. But my real concern is the bugholes. I don't know if it's wood wasps or or those god forsaken beetles, but there are five holes about 1/4" in diam. along the side of the stave. I took a piece of picture hanging wire and ran it into each of the holes. The deepest one went about 1-1/4" . The good news is that they seem to run more alongthe surface of the wood than into it. So I may be able to cut them out. I really didn't want to back this bow; so maybe find the deepest one and start chasing rings from there? There's also a number of much smaller pinholes, too small to even get the wire into. I'm not sure if this is a natural occurrence in pecan or if it's also done by vermin. I know I've heard that some woods, like yew, are riddled with pinholes. Anyhow, my thought is to cut the stave out of the center of this piece and hopefully eliminate some of these problem areas. That is unless any of ya'll have a solution. I've posted pictures. i plan to kerf about 1/2" outside of the black lines and split away the rest. No worries though. Nothing better for smoking a pork butt than pecan. (https://www.dropbox.com/sc/ump0l5j6lkh95ci/OsRFn1WFPl)
Ok, so l did what I said and cut the stave out of the center. I got rid of all but one of the bugholes, and that's fairly high up on the stave, so I'm thinking it will get cut out when I taper the limbs. The knots are still there, and they cause the grain to roller coaster some, but I've seen some cool bows made out of much worse. So now I have a stave 3" wide across the back, 5'10" long, and about 5" thick. I even had enough left over to make a couple of hatchet handles. The reflex that God put into the stave came down to 1-1/2" after and will still come down more. So what do I do now? You still with me, Art? I feel like this is the one that the pigs gotta look out for. Here's some pics. (https://www.dropbox.com/sc/vfytkxtcwygjdpp/hxrDW99ovh)
Ok, so l did what I said and cut the stave out of the center. I got rid of all but one of the bugholes, and that's fairly high up on the stave, so I'm thinking it will get cut out when I taper the limbs. The knots are still there, and they cause the grain to roller coaster some, but I've seen some cool bows made out of much worse. So now I have a stave 3" wide across the back, 5'10" long, and about 5" thick. I even had enough left over to make a couple of hatchet handles. The reflex that God put into the stave came down to 1-1/2" after and will still come down more. So what do I do now? You still with me, Art? I feel like this is the one that the pigs gotta look out for. Here's some pics. (https://www.dropbox.com/sc/vfytkxtcwygjdpp/hxrDW99ovh)
Time to lay out your bow Ronnell. What you do have in mind? I see you want 66" 50@27" but what about handle shape? Cut-in shelf or not? Bendy or flat bow style?
But before you do that, and since you have plenty of scrap, now would be a good time to do another bend/break test, against the rings this time. Last test looked good but that was with the rings and not indicative of how the bow actually bends..........Art
[IMG] https://www.dropbox.com/sc/60viyr3e8776sh4/onJqo7bYkb /IMG]. The bend test is in the pictures. I'm thinking American flatbow like the old Popular Mech. layout. I like the look of that bow. I'd like the handle cut out of the same stave as the bow, all one piece. Leather wrap, and floppy rest. I learned how to shoot a bow off my knuckle, so I don't need anything fancy. If I can just make one that shoots straight and hits hard I'll be happy. Not a bend through, though. Stiff handle for sure.
I couldn't get those last pictures to come up so I'm going to post them again. (https://www.dropbox.com/sc/o42xskn4zixvju2/_sYWnLCJQu) sorry if they're blurry. I had my nine year old take them.
Test looks fine......again. Time to reduce your stave for a little drying time. I like to get my bow pretty close to working dimensions as possible and store it horizonally for a week or two in conditions that'll produce 6-8% MC for hickory. Temps between 70-80 degrees and humidity 30-40% will achieve that. You can pick up a temp/humidity gauge if you don't have one for about 10.00 bucks or less about anywhere.
So for a bow of 66" ntn and 50#, 1 3/4" width is plenty IMO. Handle width of 3/4" and 1 1/2" deep will work. For handle length, and if you use a full hand grip, 4" centered is fine (2" up from center for arrow pass). For a medium grip make the handle length 5" (1 1/2" up from center for arrow pass).
From there, handle fades, 3" or so. Handle flares (sides), 1 1/2"-2". from the end of the handle fades, parallel the limbs out 1/3 the limb's length. Side taper to tips from there.
So let me explain my reasoning for this particular limb design. First, your stave has a moderate amount of reflex. That requires a certain
amount of paralleled limb to handle the added reflex stress. Second, with the longer side taper, it'll allow you more room to rid yourself of the bug damage.
Most people like to tiller a bow out on the tillering board/tree. I do things a little different and "apply a taper" instead of tillering for it on a tree. So that's what I'm going to explain to you since you're an "old carpenter" too!
OK, you have your limbs shaped, now you need to apply a belly taper to achieve the proper bend. This will more or less be finished dimensions so allow some leeway on the rough-out. So get out your framing square for this.
Right at the handle fades, lay your square on the back of the bow, riding the exact crown of the back, mark 9/16" on the side. Now step your square down to the 1/3 mark and mark the side 1/2" (square on crown of the back). From there, carry the 1/2" mark all the way to the tip. Now mark the other side of the limb the same. Using your pencil, now scribe the sides and join the marks.
If things go your way, little tillering will be needed to achieve the proper bend. Only weight reduction/wood removal out to your draw length is required. But if any extra tillering is required, it'll be at mid-limb where weight drop-off is less, than say inner limb.
So get busy, rough out your bow, dry properly, and it's a piece of cake after that. Good luck........Art
Finally found some time to start roughing out my stave today. While doing so I noticed this dip (https://db.tt/lMo3qbRb). Most of the stave is fairly uniform in its thickness butbin this spot, where the black "x" is and between the black lines, it drops off a good 5/16"from the center line to the edge of the bow. Can this be over come? I was by no means expecting the stave to be dimensionally perfect, but this seems fairly dramatic. Also, the vast majority of the natural reflex is in one limb (the same one as the dip). Should I plan on this being the top or bottom limb, or does it matter?
Finally found some time to start roughing out my stave today. While doing so I noticed this dip (https://db.tt/lMo3qbRb). Most of the stave is fairly uniform in its thickness butbin this spot, where the black "x" is and between the black lines, it drops off a good 5/16"from the center line to the edge of the bow. Can this be over come? I was by no means expecting the stave to be dimensionally perfect, but this seems fairly dramatic. Also, the vast majority of the natural reflex is in one limb (the same one as the dip). Should I plan on this being the top or bottom limb, or does it matter?
Just scribe the side of that dip area like the rest of the limb, rough shape your limb, then let the growth rings on the belly guide you from there.........Art
Finished roughing out the bow. It's about four days into the.drying process, so there's not much to do but wait. That's actually killing me a little bit. What do ya'll do while waiting on a stave to dry? I may have some questions about arrow building before too long. Anyway, here's some pics. (https://www.dropbox.com/sc/p6pm5qajxd2dlz/P_jivdI6Cb) . How's it looking?
Trying again. Can you tell I'm not a big tech guy? (https://www.dropbox.com/sc/p6pm15qajxd2dlz/P_jivdI6Cb)
Lots you can do while it's drying. Clean it's back up. Round all edges good. Get your handle to a finished state. Cut your string nocks in. Make a string. Even if this bow fails, and it's just an IF, all the above is good experience.
Personally, I think it's high time we put arrows back in "bows&arrows. So learn arrow-making skills right along side bow making. One is useless without the other..........Art
Just a quick question. I've some old whitetail antlers laying around and I was thinking about using them to reinforce the string nocks. Is this a good idea? If so, what's the best way to shape them? Would a Dremel work?
You want to use the outside of antlers, Inside is spongy. I use files to shape. Dremel can be dangerous. They shape real fast with wood files, 50grit paper.
I do a lot of mine with antlers. Like Bc said, use files instead of dremels. Super glue gel works fine for gluing them down. I use a large double cut flat bastard to rough shape, a small double cut to dress that, and then a scraper/sandpaper from there..........Art
This is a little unrelated, but I just got my first two spools of B50 in the mail. Can anyone direct me to an idiot proof Flemish twist tutorial?
This is a little unrelated, but I just got my first two spools of B50 in the mail. Can anyone direct me to an idiot proof Flemish twist tutorial?
QuoteOriginally posted by wazabodark:
This is a little unrelated, but I just got my first two spools of B50 in the mail. Can anyone direct me to an idiot proof Flemish twist tutorial?
http://poorfolkbows.com/flemish1.htm
I have a nice bow made of pecan. Pecan is the Largest of the Hickory Family. my wife shoots it as I over tillered it and now it comes in around 37#. it is the bow that I brag about shooting a spider with at 10yds on a bet with witnesses!!
when you cut pecan to make a stave from( most any white wood) you peel the bark off while its green. this makes the back of the bow.
Hedgeapple
This is a little unrelated, but I just got my first two spools of B50 in the mail. Can anyone direct me to an idiot proof Flemish twist tutorial?
You must have missed that Poorfolk link that Flyboy posted...........Art
No. I didn't miss it. I can't figure out why I have so many double posts. But I've already been to the sight and it was just what I needed to see. Thanks Flyboy.
QuoteOriginally posted by wazabodark:
No. I didn't miss it. I can't figure out why I have so many double posts. But I've already been to the sight and it was just what I needed to see. Thanks Flyboy.
Your welcome! Keep the pictures of the bow coming along...I have access to basically an unlimited supply of pecan. Where in Texas are you?
I'm in New Braunfels. About 15 miles north of San Antonio on 35. And since I have the attention of a fellow Texan let me ask: why do these fellas keep referring to bodarks as "osage"? Do they not know the difference between a tribe and a tree? (Just kiddin' guys).
Ok folks, here the latest set of pics of the Pecan Rollercoaster. He's been sitting in dryout land for two weeks. I only took him out to finish cutting the width to finished dimensions and do a little shaping on the limbs. Also scraped the tool marks off the back with a piece of glass and sanded with 100 grit. (https://www.dropbox.com/sc/soclw2g6i7rt48a/gtCO8X8OS4) I've decided to go ahead with the antler in the nocks. So do I do that now, or do I mount temporary blocks like I've seen others do? Also, I really like the wavy lower limb. I'm not gonna have to straighten that, am I?
(https://www.dropbox.com/sc/8htke95loz7eq7t/3Daan8lE5_) OK. I have the nocks mounted, tillering tree ready, and a tillering string built. What now?
I don't believe I've ever seen overlays done quite like that Ronnell. Probably be Ok since it's hickory, but to err on the safe side, I'd do a wrap right out in front of those overlays to prevent that back ring from lifting.
Next step, if you have the tips moving enough, place on the tillering board, using a short as possible long string, pull the bow down to about what you think is brace height. Then run a string line (affix to each end) from nock to nock to where you can stand back and judge tiller.
Once you have an even tiller, and the bow is light enough to string using a regular short string, then do so. Wood removal and sanding can all be done with the string left in place. Just don't cut the string. Easy peasy from there........Art
(https://www.dropbox.com/sc/k3cmwfwamzbqisb/7zAMpQkXdg%20%3Cbr%20/%3E) this is making me a little nuts. The top limb(on the right) is bending well with no tillering at all. The bottom limb isn't moving much at all. After lots of scraping this is what I've managed to get out of it. The first picture is at what I figure to be about brace height (7"). The second is 12". I'm at 15#@12". It seems that the limb is naturally inclined towards bending where the the roller coaster crowns to the back of the bow, and nowhere else. Is this normal? It makes sense to me, but should I be working to overcome this? Also, would I be better off working from the tip in or the fades out? Or from center out? I'm afraid to put the short string on it for fear of stressing the top limb.
For the time being Ronnell, keep your bow centered on the tree.
Looks like you need to do some more floor tillering on that lower limb to get it bending more before going to the tree.
One trick that I use that will get both limb close is to balance the bow for equal limb mass. Very simple and easy to do. Just mark the exact center of your bow. Now balance it on a pencil or something similar. Adjust limb mass until the bow balances at the center of your bow. This way, you know you at least have equal limb mass to work with. And maintain that balancing act right on through construction..........Art
I did the balance trick and the top limb is actually heavier than the bottom. Meaning the one that bends actually has more mass. Now I'm REALLY confused. It seems like taking material from the top limb is just begging this bow to come in under target weight. I'll do whatever you tell me, I'm just trying to train myself how to think about these things. As a frame carpenter I go out of my way to make sure wood doesn't move. Bowyering is the exact opposite of that.
I did the balance trick and the top limb is actually heavier than the bottom. Meaning the one that bends actually has more mass. Now I'm REALLY confused. It seems like taking material from the top limb is just begging this bow to come in under target weight. I'll do whatever you tell me, I'm just trying to train myself how to think about these things. As a frame carpenter I go out of my way to make sure wood doesn't move. Bowyering is the exact opposite of that.
One thing you're going to learn about full length staves is that you're dealing with uneven working properties Ronnell. So limb dimensions from limb to limb can and often does appear slightly different at times. That's why many bow makers prefer matching sister billets to work with.
Wood removed for the sides, and perhaps tips of the top limb, will effect movement very little Ronnell. But a small amount of wood removed from the belly of the lower limb has greater consequences. So stay with that balancing act...........Art
Got it, Art. Thanks.
Got it, Art. Thanks.
Okay. So I put in some time today and finally got limb mass equalized. I also got that bottom limb to start moving some. Now I have a couple of questions. First; what kind of arch am I shooting for with this style bow? Am I looking for a true arch or more of an ellipse? Second (and this is me thinking like a carpenter again) if the handle is centered in the cradle and the center of my string is under the peg on my tree, then I should be able to mark my limbs in 6" increments from centered and measure from there to my peg to check if I'm tillering evenly (but not necessarily properly), right? My wife (who hates my bow but is smarter than me), seems to think that the waviness of the stave would negate the effectiveness of this technique. I'm inclined to agree. Third; should the limbs bend from the fades out, or from the tips in? oiu
Look for the greater bend of the limbs to be about where you started your side taper Ronnell. So you're looking for more of an elliptical tiller more so than an arc.
That's the beauty of an applied taper tillering over searching for one by scraping here or there for one. Or as Torges puts it, "stalking tiller".
If you have about 1/16" belly taper from fade to where the side taper starts, with even limb mass, first stringing will be very close to the correct tiller for your limb design.
If you have a caliper, run it down your limbs, taking into accounts any irregularities in the bow's back, look for any high/low areas in the belly.
I think I mentioned this before, the growth rings can be a big help in determining where wood needs to be removed.
Oh, my hat's off to your wife! ;)
Okay, I'm back. I got a little busy building things for other people, but I've found time to indulge in my own selfish pursuits (my wife is thrilled). The limbs are bending more or less evenly so I put the short string on it. (https:/www.dropbox.com/sc/58xpd0qlyp482wy/COkSkXuS2b) . The pics show brace height, 12" of draw, and 16" draw. My scale shows 15# @ 16", so I'm cutting it retty close to target weight. That's not a real issue to me at this point, though. I shot a 50# bow the other day and although I could handle it, pt wasn't exactly comfortable. I'm used to a 30# recurve. Anyway, I can plainly see that there is tillering yet to be done, I'm just hoping that I can get some advice on where to start.
Right limb between the humps.
Finally got the bottom limb bending, but in typical fashion I overworked the @&%& out of it, completely ignoring the other limb. The pictures are at brace, 14", and 20". It draws 18# at 20", so I'm going to come in way under target weight. Doesn't matter though, I still have hope for it. And I'm learning quite a bit on this one. (https://www.dropox.com/sc/lu5wa9sbi1tgsth/vM-zNKacCj) . Any suggestions?
Finally got the bottom limb bending, but in typical fashion I overworked the @&%& out of it, completely ignoring the other limb. The pictures are at brace, 14", and 20". It draws 18# at 20", so I'm going to come in way under target weight. Doesn't matter though, I still have hope for it. And I'm learning quite a bit on this one. (https://www.dropox.com/sc/lu5wa9sbi1tgsth/vM-zNKacCj) . Any suggestions?
(https://www.dropbox.com/sc/z6rm7n9vr42y39u/B_qsTckfeh)
I'll try posting that link again.
Good deal, this link works for me. Your left limb looks great but the right one looks a little thin in the middle to me. Then again, I've tillered exactly one stave bow and I know that natural humps and dips in the wood can deceive the eye a bit. Do you have a picture of it unstrung? A Gizmo and a cheap dial calipers are a huge help. I also mark the side of the limbs every 6" from the fades out when I can first string it and measure each increment from the string as I do the final tillering to keep it even. But that still doesn't stop me from making a few rasps in the wrong spot sometimes. Hey, if your bow comes in light, but it's still shootable, give yourself a pat on the back and remember how it got that way so you won't do it again on your next one. My stave bow came in 5# light, but I have some lighter arrows that shoot great thru it.
(https://farm4.staticflickr.com/3692/13154791194_76e4c38cfe.jpg) (https://www.flickr.com/photos/21955099@N07/13154791194/)
This should help.
Looks like you actually have a little reflex in the left limb, and what looks like a hinge in the right limb.
I will leave it to the more experienced to tell you what to do, but if it were me I would get the left bending like the right and not touch the right limb where the hinge is again.
PS- Rooting for success