So i took my new trilam huntin with me. Shoot a few stumps on the way to the blind... Alls well. Get to the blind and lean her against a tree.... Felt a sharp edge. Dont know what happened or when. Never heard a funny sound. Aint goin back to the house for another bow.... So maybe we will see if she has one last shot in her. I hereby name her "last chance"
(http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/s608/echatham/IMG_20131111_145007_453_zps1571af0b.jpg)
(http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/s608/echatham/IMG_20131111_144951_014_zps614a8b49.jpg)
I think you left the edges too square, you can see the abrupt edge on it in the picture. I would have rounded the belly over to more of a radius belly. And your core lam is too thick. Both the core lam and belly lam need to be thickness tapered from flares to tips at least by 1/16th. And I can see rasp scratches on the side, you need to get out all of those, that is a starting place for failures. Thought I learned you better than that, son:) You need to slow down and finesse bows into their final stage. When you think it is done, go back over it with a fine tooth comb, looking for any little tiny scratches or nicks, and sand them smooth. Then put a light coat of stain on it and look again. You will see where it needs attention. But your not doing too bad, Skippy. :wavey:
Yeah, Thought Roy learned you better!
Where is the failure on the limb? And which limb?
Guessing here, upper limb about 3 to 5 inches out of the fade?
Bottom limb ten inches from the tip
cant help with the bow, i would listen to the ol'guy- saw a photo of his 'pipes' a while ago- man i would be skeerd!!
but sure like to see people using the asat leafy suits- my favourite hunting gear.
missed a nice spike buck yesterday at 5 yards( dont ask!!! :knothead: )
and he just stared at me in my leafy suit. and strolled off unspooked!!
i might try and wrap something around the area for the rest of the day- duct tape, cord, anything!!
then a C.A. fix and C.A. saturated wrap- later tonight- would still make it usable tomorrow!!!
but im sure you had that figured out anyways!!
Um it cracked. Diagnosis complete :)
Looks like some swirly grain in that area to me. Is that the belly? Also looks like the glue line might have failed???
10 inches from the tip? Holly crap, my mid limbs aren't that thick..
missed a nice spike buck yesterday at 5 yards( dont ask!!!
Well I gotta ask, Wayne:) But don't feel bad, I did that once too:)
I was guessing from the thickness it was near the fade.. Got any photos before the failure, full draw or on the tillering tree?
I guess that may be a close up and just look thicker than it is.
he came in pretty quick to the squeal, and stopped sort of right in front of the tree( i use a tree seat) but at the base, so it was a near vertical, round the tree, contorted sort of shot- should have just waited till he walked away some- and given the perfect shot- like he did after i shot :knothead: he just stared at me for the longest time, and slowly strolled away, by the time i hads another one nocked, he was behind some brush!!
just misread the situation- thought that he came in fast, that he might leave in a hurry too!!
so echatham- is the bow surviving the day!!!
well, didn't have anything to shoot at... to windy tonight. it does have a weird swirl in the grain there, probably a hidden pin knot. the glue joint seems to have failed to, might have been starved... wonder if that could have been the clacking noise i couldn't figure out. tell ya what, im 0 for 2 on these bamboo backed bows... Roy, you can have em. im building another self bow :thumbsup:
here's a full draw pic prior to today, bottom limb on the left
(http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/s608/echatham/IMG_20131025_122237_498_zps71ef80ee.jpg) (http://s1308.photobucket.com/user/echatham/media/IMG_20131025_122237_498_zps71ef80ee.jpg.html)
(http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/s608/echatham/IMG_20131028_150045_032_zps477ededb.jpg) (http://s1308.photobucket.com/user/echatham/media/IMG_20131028_150045_032_zps477ededb.jpg.html)
not sure why you guys think its thick... just over a quarter inch.... is that thick?
(http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/s608/echatham/IMG_20131111_191925_701_zpsf1ed3d02.jpg) (http://s1308.photobucket.com/user/echatham/media/IMG_20131111_191925_701_zpsf1ed3d02.jpg.html)
Man it looked nice! Must have been the swirl and glue problem.
Round the belly more on the next one, just as Roy said.
Your learning things you can't get by reading a book. Some times these lesson don't come the way we want them. But I bet you will never forget to check for these things you learn.
Roy may have hold you back a grade for saying your giving up.
It was the close up, we had nothing to compare for a size reference.
I think it was the glue failure that caused it. Maybe clamped her to tight. What glue did you use?
Has nothing to do with it just wondering.
did you use C clamps??
a lot of people use clamps successfully- i just dont like them- too much margin of error- i prefer bands- but then you gotta make a caul, then might as well use an air hose- which is probably the quickest cleanest most accurate.
just my opinion thats all.
Eric, it wasn't always easy...
used bar clamps on the posts and spring clamps on the rest. i believe it likely was the glue line that caused it... coupled with the tiny pin knot. just seems like theres a higher rate of failure with these laminated bows... they are sensitive i guess... guess you could say they were sissy pants bows... i guess thats fitting though... considering who builds the most of em :laughing:
im not stressing over it.. hell i got another one on the tree and one in the oven. there will be lots of bows and lots of lessons learned.
i got a HHB molly at low brace, but it needs a few more heat sessions to get the tips lined up with handle, and i got a very clean (only one pin knot and its in the handle) osage stave roughed out almost identical to my last osage bow... 64" ntn, top limb one inch longer, 1.5" for 5" past the fades then straight tapered to half inch. and im going to make it as simple and as perfect as i can. very slow... like tillering with 400 grit slow... no flipped tips, just mild reflex, and im shooting for a straight standing finished bow about 45-50#
I don't use spring clamps. I use C clamps.
Perhaps you listened to much to some guy from PA. ;) :laughing: Bue--.
How did you prep the glue joints? What glue did you use?
It was likely a combination of the grain direction change and pin knot that allowed this to happen... and the glue joint may have been fine otherwise, but just couldn't stop the break.
Since growth rings run one direction, and grain runs perpendicular to them... a piece of wood could be perfectly quartersawn or rift sawn and have potentially threatening grain run out. This appears to have been the case here. Unfortunately, if you don't saw the lumber yourself, it may be very hard or impossible to know ahead of time.
Hey Bue Boy, don't make me make a trip over the pond.. LOL
Eric, how many beers did you consume when you were gluing it up?
Jeff i used unibond 800, and i prepped the glue surfaces by scoring with a hacksaw blade and cleaning with acetone.
Roy, I don't remember.... is that bad? :dunno:
Not bad as long as ya had some:)
there were definitely "some"
Ok then that wasn't the reason it broke:)
I don't think the acetone clean up is necessary. I quit degreasing about ten years or about a hundred bows ago, no glue failures so far. I use Urac but will switch to unibond when I run out of urac.
When I was degreasing I always wondered if all the solvent cooked out of the wood or if there was a little left hiding in the wood cells to cause a glue failure.
I used to use denatured alcohol to clean up, now I just blow the wood off with an air hose. Never had a glue failure with urac or unibond yet.
I don't degrease anymore either. I wondered and worried like Eric about solvent left behind and whether it would inhibit the best adhesion.
Instead, I try to grind the pieces immediayely prior to glue up, and be careful not to touch the gluing surfaces at all before I get them glued together.
Just when I am ready to jump into a tri-lam bow i read a thread like this and I get a bit overwhelmed and I think maybe i will wait awhile before getting into the all wood bow world and stick with my glass bows a bit longer. Someday...
Proper ingredients equal a lasting bow. Don't be overwhelmed, just get boards with good grain and go to town. That swirl was the killer IMO. Im a round edge guy myself, but Id say this one was plenty rounded and not the fault.
Pearl it is pretty rounded. got to be the grain swirl. i used the best quartersawn osage i could find, but it wasn't perfect. i will try another laminated bow one day, but im gonna stick with sticks for now.
Cant blame you Eric. Im a stave guy myself.
sorry about the tough break Eric.
...sounds like you've found your niche anyway...till ya get bored and need to try something new...lol
It was not pretty rounded, you can see a crisp edge on the belly. Not saying that's why it broke, but it's a possibility along with the grain swirl. Just keep making them, Eric. And there will be more break in your Bowyer Adventure. Happens every now and then when building wood bows. And store this thought Eric, a radius belly is better than a flat belly with wooden bows.
Roy it might have been a trick of the camera or just your tired old eyes... But there was no crisp edge anywhere on that bow... All nice and rounded. Now why dont ya go open up one of them sissy beers and take a rest :laughing:
OK:)
Lol! Not gonna put up much of a fight ehh?
So... Torges style patch or ca glue and a wrap? Might as well try to save it.
On the edge like that, yes CA, patch, and a wrap.
You could try the Torges patch.
First though, I would put thin CA down in there and clamp that glue joint back together. After it was dried, and THAT part was effectively repaired, I'd grind out the area where the grain seperated with a sanding drum of sufficient radius to remove that crack and as much of the surrounding 'strange grain' as possible. Don't grind all the way across the belly if you don't have to. I've had excellent results with those patches... but should admit that I've never had to take one as close to the backing as the glue joint, and yours has already seperated a little there, so I'll be waiting to see how she holds up if you try.
yeah i might as well try.
I think a wrap will hold it down. I've had worse ones survive.
Spread the crack if you can, fill with super glue, clamp, give it a super glue soaked thread wrap and you will be good to go.
I use nylon string serving thread and serve the bow just like I would serve a bow string.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/ekrewson/bow%20making/copperheadbackcrackwrap.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/ekrewson/media/bow%20making/copperheadbackcrackwrap.jpg.html)
Out at least a half a dozen such wraps, the only one I have had fail was one I served up to a bamboo node but not over it and the node failed. If I had served another half inch the patch would have held.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/ekrewson/bow%20making/canedragonbreak.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/ekrewson/media/bow%20making/canedragonbreak.jpg.html)
Eric it looks like your were patching a problem on the back... but it should work just as well on the belly right?
absolutely- probably better chance of survival on the belly, as they are very effective on the backs anyway.
i do as Eric does- serving thread and CA. looks neat, and pretty tough.
seems simpler, and i don't have a drum sander, just a bench top belt sander that i was going to use the end of. gonna give this a try when i get home this afternoon.
Belly cracks are an easy fix. I fixed a belly crack like yours for a friend 3 years go. He has shot the heck out of the bow since, even finished second in the IBO worlds with the repaired bow this year. These thread wraps really hold up well.
Here is a monster Torges patch I did on a a friend's narrow bamboo backed osage ELB a couple of weeks ago to fix a rotten, very cracked knot. So far so good, I used a half round file to cut the bad place out.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/ekrewson/bow%20making/joesbowpatch_zps49be8111.jpg) (http://smg.photobucket.com/user/ekrewson/media/bow%20making/joesbowpatch_zps49be8111.jpg.html)
(http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/s608/echatham/IMG_20131113_193341_362_zps35a736e7.jpg)
(http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/s608/echatham/IMG_20131113_193318_720_zps27663d9c.jpg)
Well we will see tomorrow if it will hold
looking really good- i am sure it will be just fine!
g'luck
That looks fine and it should hold, Eric. If you want, you could do a similar wrap on the other limb to match it for cosmetic reasons:)
Roybert is hardcore into cosmetics. Like Mary Kay, Avon and all the other high quality types.
Hey Pearly Boy, I hain't sent ya that bow blank yet:) Watch your potty mouth son.. LOL
yeah i thought about that... and i might.
put about 50 shots through it today... finally... seems to be holding good. thanks for the tips guys. :notworthy: