I'm in the process of building my first board bow using instructions from a book called the backyard bowyer. The bow is white ash 70" long 68" NtN with a 5" static handle pyramid design. In the book the bow is 1.5" wide and the fades are 1" long. However my board was wider so I increased the width to 2" but I kept the fades 1" long, I have recently read that I should have increased the fade length as I made the bow wider.
So my question is will this cause the bow to break? Also is there a rule or formula as to how long the fades should be?
I haven't seen anything on a formula for fade length.
Most usually allow for 4 inch handle and 2 inches of fade on each end.
I think a thicker, top to bottom handle requires a little longer fade.
The fades are the transition between the static handle and flexing limb. As long as you get a good transition you should not have a problem. I prefer a 1 1/2" to 2" fade area depending on the bow design. 1" seems a bit short for a smooth transition in my opinion.
This is why I dislike the use of the term 'fade' in wooden bows. Only three posts into this thread and we're talking about two completely different things.
I've always understood it to mean as Pat described... where the stiff handle 'fades' into working limb. I believe the term was derived from 'the fadeouts'... on glassbows, where the handle thins to nothing, or, fades-out . which is more of a reference to thickness, not width. The same area on wooden bows has been traditionally known as 'the dips'.
What I believe Dave is talking about is where the narrowed handle flares out to the limb's widest point. I was taught to call this part of a bow the flare. On his bow, I'd say that it has a 1" flare.... meaning, in the space of an inch, it widens(or flares) from the narrowed handle to the limb's widest point.... and yes, that is quite an abrupt change considering he is taking it to a full 2" wide. I would have lengthened the flare to about 2"... in other words... it would be 2" wide, 2" from the handle. But don't change it now Dave, unless your dips (fades) will STILL be beyond the flares afterwards... I don't know if you have a handle piece glued on yet.... if you do, its length could limit how much you can change.
I think 'fade' was mistakenly used to reference 'flare' at one point and more folks have come to follow suit... which probably happened because the words are similar and these parts of the bow are in very close proximity to one another... new bowyers wouldn't be too sure yet of the terminology or what they were looking at.
But regardless, it's important to clearly differenciate between the two because their relationship in these bows is vital. If a bow's handle/throat area doesn't get thick enough before it gets narrow, it will be weak there and likely break.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Jeff_Durnell/Assorted%20bow%20pics/FlaresandDips_zps2343269d.jpg)
This is generally how things are discussed in the bowyer's circles I've been privy to, which I think eliminates confusion. Depending on the bowyer's desire/design, sometimes the distinguishing elements of these 'parts' can be very suble, appear quite different than I have drawn (plus, I'm obviously no artist), with the transitions perhaps making them harder to identify, but their relationship would be no less important... the dips always coming in to working limb thickness far enough beyond the flares to eliminate weakness in the narrowed portion.
I've seen numerous times where folks apparently understood 'flare' and 'fade' to be synonomous, got them confused and switched, or believed that they should be executed at the same place... which created a weakness and the bow broke right there.
I do think the fades and the flare should correspond with each other.
Thanks for clearing up the terms. I thought it might be easier just to take a photograph.
(http://img15.imageshack.us/img15/2192/8eit.jpg)
I have re-measured and its not as bad as I feared the flare width is 1 3/4".
So the question is how should I proceed,
a) get the surform out again and take the flares down to 1 1/2" width.
b) carry on and hope that it doesn't snap.
If I do just carry on, what are the danger signs to look for? If its weak at the fades/flare would that mean that the bow would bend more at that point?
I think you can proceed. You didn't say what weight your goal is. 1/2 inch is still pretty hefty. If you will be taking more off overall then the fades will grow a little longer as you tiller.
The flares could be a little longer but think that can be accomplished as you finish the bow.
Should be strong enough. Just don't pull it too far. Do the floor tillering next.
Have started long string tillering and it seems to be bending evenly. So would I be right in thinking that if there is a problem with the flare/fade it will be bending more in that area?
It might, but there's just as good a chance that it will just break there with no warning.
What is concerning to me about your bow is the orientation of its flares and fades. This is what I was referencing in my post above. Compare my drawing to your bow. See how my dips fade into working limb thickness just beyond the flares, and yours dips into working limb thickness to the handle side of them? That's scarey. Some folks' bows break there if it gets too thin and narrow in the same spot.
It might be ok if your bow is of lighter draw weight and there isn't a lot of strain there, but you should do things a little differently in the future to ensure durability/longevity.
Best of luck with it, but I wouldn't want to shoot it. BOOM....
Good eye Bowjunkie, I failed to see that.
It is scarey.
Think light weight.
Thats disappointing, but I am pleased that you noticed the error, so thankyou. I was only intending for the bow to be around 30# @ 28" so not sure if thats light enough. I think that I will proceed with tillering it for practice, and rough out a couple more boards correcting the fade/flare problems.
So in reference to my photo in previous post, the flare length should be longer approx 2" and I should be starting the dip before the flare, would 1/2" suffice? That would mean a 2 1/2" fade and 2" flare.
Don't be bashful with your dips. Get them on out there past the flares. IMO, 1/2" is barely enough. Depending on other design parameters, I lay them out 1 1/2 - 2" past the flare initially, and then work them back in a little closer as I tiller, sneaking the flexing back closer to the flares as I gauge its bend AND shape and blend together the limbs and handle area. Though my limb bellies are radiused and handles rounded, so I likely do more shaping and wood removal in this area than you do. Also, my bows are usually over 60 lbs and sometimes 70, so I can't afford to takes chances in this area.
You can always take wood off... can't put it back on.
All is not lost. You said you had a 5 inch handle, cut back to a 3 1/2 or 4 and get a smoother dip area. Or just remove the built up handle area and roll-on!
I like the second option better.
Or a third leave as is and well you never know!
I was succesful w/ similar dimensions w/ a hickory (sapwood) backed w/ pecan (heartwood) --- lost a lot of working limb area and poundage (had to pike it) and it came out whip-ended, but shoots well.
If you're trying lightweight, it's fine, if you want something heavier, shorten the handle as 1mississip suggested (which is what I wish I'd done).
For a light weight bow, it would likely survive. If you wanted to be sure, you could cut the handle off, so that the handle area was the same thickness as the limbs, then glue on a handle piece long enough to carry your dips past the flares. You could allow enough to cut your flares longer too if you wanted.
If I were to cut the handle to the thickness of the rest of the bow and glue on a new handle, how would I prevent the handle going off when the bow bends
(http://poorfolkbows.com/images/ipe61.JPG)
the only way I have read about is to start the fade in the main limb wood, and its currently only 1/2" thick.
Eric Krewson came up with a neat method that you could try. Check out this thread:
http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=125;t=010659
You could simply build a nice feeling handle with a leather wrap and shoot off a floppy rest.
Yes, feather the fade out onto the limb, about 2" past the flares. It will flex a little bit out near the fadeout, but less as it gets nearer the flares, then probably not at all in the narrowed portion(arrow pass) since it will be thick at that point. The fadeout is what slows and then stops the bending.
One way to keep such a glue joint from seperating is to create perfect mating surfaces, then roughen them (I use a toothing plane blade), then use a glue with gap filling properties... I use Smooth On. I NEVER have handles 'pop off'... and sometimes I really push it too... like on short bows with short dips and short flares... so as to maximize working limb area.
It also helps to stretch things out... making the fades long and low... and 'flow' nicely into the handle... no abrupt changes... sometimes it'll be hard to tell where one 'part' stops and another starts.
Here's one on a bamboo backed osage recurve... Core is a little less than 1/2" thick, with a 1 1/4" thick piece added on to build up the handle and dips.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Jeff_Durnell/Patch/Patch4.jpg)
Here's another along the same lines... a 58" d/r bamboo backed osage. These bows are 60# @ 28". On both of them, the dips blend into working limb thickness 2" past the flares.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Jeff_Durnell/Wild%20Thing/WildThing15.jpg)
Thanks for all of the advice. I have cut the handle off and planed the bow flat so the whole thing is 1/2" thick and have shaped a 13" piece of ash to act as the handle and fades. I was wondering about how I should proceed from there? Should I uniformly thin out the limbs to start the fade in the limb wood, or should I just keep the thickness and try to tiller the bend away from the handle area?
Once you have the new handle with fade glued on.
You would tiller as needed treating the thing as one piece of wood.
If your 1/2 inch now I would think the limbs would get down to 3/8 or less and tapering to the 1/2 inch at the fades. Making a smooth transition.