This is my first post, I am a novice to archery and bow building, but want to get into it as much as I can. In the past I have had a couple of compounds and did some bow fishing growing up in south Florida, but now I'm getting back into archery with traditional gear after a 19 year hiatus.
I am interested in making as much of the gear as I can, with hope of bow hunting deer with it next year, or as soon as possible.
I started to work two board bows, but have a simple question before I get too far. When do you transition from a long string tiller to a short string? And is the short string the same length as the finished bowstring?
Thanks for any help.
-Rob.
Rob, I floor tiller to about 4" of tip movement. If all looks well I long string tiller(string just bow length) until I get 6" to 8" of tip movement. If all is well I add the short string(regular bow string) at low brace of 3" to 4". Now you can really see if the limbs are bending evenly and together and how the string tracks.
welcome! different people do different things, and im kinda a newb too, but i have learned alot from the guys on here. you want to get your tips moving to about their braced position... or where they will be when they have the real string on them. about 6" or so lower than where the handle sits. then go to the short string. i usually try to brace it at about 1 or 2 inches the first time, but if the first try ends up at 3 or 4 i say thats ok too. once you get to the mid stages or so of tillering, i go ahead and take it to almost brace height... say 5 1/2 or 6". it would behoove you to buy a roll or two of b50 (its cheap) and learn to make a flemish string (its easy) that way you don't have to worry about ordering the right string length over and over again. by the time you buy 3 strings you could have bought b50 and made yourself a hundred for the same price. best advice i can give you is to post lots of pictures during the tillering process, and listen to the guys who know what they are talking about. they can't help you after you screw it up... but they can sure stop you from doing it. you will end up with your own list of trusted people, but Roy from PA and Bowjunkie (and others)are at the top of mine, and they won't steer you wrong.
Good advice.
There are many with proper,advice.
Another I like getting posts from is Pat B.
X2 What Past said.
Watch the DVD by Gary Davis, very straight forward and easy to understand.
Pat has you heading in the proper direction.
Hey thanks for the answers, that helps me a lot.
Looks like I need 3-5 more inches of travel with the long string (using 550 cord) I'd guess I am half way to brace height...about 3 inches at the moment, and with the stretch of 550 cord I'll aim for a little more than is really needed.
I am hoping for about a 50# (its a Mollegabet) out of red oak.
I put a scale on it today and it was 50# half way to brace height.
As for the string, unless there is something just wrong with a continuous loop, that's my plan.
I picked up some B55 and serving string/jig already, and have practiced tying/serving some jute string. I think I can handle that, the flemish string is a bit intimidating so far.
I'll try and post pics ASAP.
Rdog the flemish looks harder, but its actually alot easier. i used to make endless loop... until i learned flemish.
For those of you who have built Molly bows before, is your working limb all the same thickness, or is a sort of (for lack of a better word) bowed, i.e. is the center of the working limb the thinnest section?
I have been working on the tiller, and it seems my gizmo (if I even am using it right) always makes contact about 1 1/2 inches in from the fades.
the block I am using as a gizmo is 3.5" long, if that matters...don't know if it is supposed to be a certain length?
It seems that the working limb is not bending, should I concentrate on scraping the entire working limb including the fades, or just inside the section that is not bending (1.5 inches in from the fades)?
Also, is there a trick to posting pics, i don't see an attachment link...
Rdog the gizmo is usually 6" long but a shorter on will not hurt.
The reason a flemish is better then an endless you you can use the same string from start to finish. Make it as long as the bow with one loop, then but a bowyers knot on the other. You can shorten it as you go. (Pat B's Ideal)
I would suggest you get rid of the 550 cord ASAP. I used it on my first bow and the stretch in that stuff really miss leads you. I was almost to a full draw length using it as a tillering string before it would brace. I did not know it until I put a string on it and was really surprised I was almost done. It really could have caused the bow to come in light if I had a lot of bad spots or issues left.
You need to use a photo sharing site like Photobucket and copy and paste the img code to post pictures. Never made a Molly; bet someone who has will give you some advice.
What length of bow? What width?
what is your draw length? what is your target weight?
Red oak, I would argue is not ideally suited to a mollegabat design because you're restricting the bending to a small portion of the limb.
in addition to pictures, we'd need this info to give more specific advice.
What is the total bow length?
what is the handle length?
what is the length of the bending section fo each limb?
what is the length of the stiff outer section fo each limb?
what is the width of the limb in the wide bending section? at the fades and at the end of the bending section.
what is your draw length? If you're not absolutely sure, then what is your height?>
I'm thinking that for red oak to make a mollegabat, you'd need to be around 66-68" in length, 2.5" wide in the bending section, the bending section being at least half of the total length of each limb, to get near 50# @ 28".
This is just a guess though. Also a molegabat is a great design but you will need to make sure you reduce the excess mass on the outer stiff portions of the limbs in order to see any of the benefits. If they'er left really thick like clubs, you will still get alot of handshock and not much speed.
I'd generally recommend a pyramid design for the first bow and also for red oak, wide and long. I think it's easiest to tiller.
63 1/4" N/N
6" handle
14" working limb
12" non working
2" fade between working and non working limbs
1.5" fade at handle
3/4" square non working limb (being shaped down...if I can tiller the bow these will be oval and a bit thinner)
Working limb is ~1/2 thick at the moment.
(http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w465/Galvell/100_2675_zps7044fb99.jpg) (http://s1077.photobucket.com/user/Galvell/media/100_2675_zps7044fb99.jpg.html)
Oh, 28" draw, hope for 45-50lbs but I'd rather it shoot at 35# than break at 50#.
I also think it should have been longer. next one will be.
Actually I am building two bows at the same time, the other is 70" something long...
next bow will likely be a pyramid.
In picture, left limb is a bit stiffer, and I'd say it needs another inch to be at brace.
I'm curious as to how the bow is progressing. I'm making a Molly for my first bow, also out of a Red Oak board with very straight, narrow grain.
My dimensions differ from yours a bit with a working and static limb of the same length of 14" 2" Fade between working and static limbs. 2" fade between handle and working limbs. I'm working off a pattern by a fellow over on YouTube that's made several of these Mollys from different types of wood.
Hi, thanks for the interest...We likely were motivated by the same guy, how my dimensions changed I guess were by slight accident. when I wanted to add a built up handle I was confused as to how it affects the location of the fades.
Anyway, its coming along slowly. It seems I only get time to work it a couple hours every two days or so.
I have it bending a few inches more than the last photo. I think I need the short string at this point.
I am still new to making strings (well, I'm new to it all really) But I am still making practice strings (out of jute string)before tying the real bow string material I have. Good thing as the last attempt to make the short string ended with one loop far to small. So I am still using the long string I made up. I twist it to make it as short as I can but its still too long.
I noticed one limb was not getting the same bend and have been trying to get it to catch up. I put a straight edge from fade to fade and measured at the center of the working limb...it was about an 1/8" less than the other, but I think its close now to even.
fingers crossed, I'll do some more on it today.
I'll post more pics when I can.
here is a pic from the other day
(http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w465/Galvell/100_2675_zps7044fb99.jpg) (http://s1077.photobucket.com/user/Galvell/media/100_2675_zps7044fb99.jpg.html)
this is from today, getting a little better, but so far its just been getting to brace,now I guess the real tillering starts.
(http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w465/Galvell/workingtiller4nov4_zps4daa983a.jpg) (http://s1077.photobucket.com/user/Galvell/media/workingtiller4nov4_zps4daa983a.jpg.html)
(http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w465/Galvell/workingtiller5nov4_zpsc72eb0ea.jpg) (http://s1077.photobucket.com/user/Galvell/media/workingtiller5nov4_zpsc72eb0ea.jpg.html)
Its a bit hard to see things with my background and the leaning setup I have (I'll blame that if this thing fails on me!)
From what I can tell the limbs from the center out to the outer fades are a bit stiffer, and I think the bottom limb is still just a bit stiffer than the top.
I really need to make a real string, hopefully I'll get the chance tomorrow. I tried to make another practice string out of jute, and served it with the same string for practice, but its too thick.
FWIW, I use #36 Mason's line for temporary and bastard strings, even strings for kid's bows. It has a breaking strength in excess of 700#! One strand worked well for my 300# crossbow until I had the prod 'right' and ordered a custom string for it.
I'll look into the masons line, thanks for the tip.
I do have a new question for anyone who can answer it, whats a ballpark measurement for working limb thickness on a red oak Molly bow for 45-50# @28"
I suspect at around 1/2" its a bit heavy for my target weight.
I'm afraid to rasp too much and as a result I fear I am moving at a snails pace.
Yeah, I'd agree that the one limb is a bit stiffer. Our friend over on Youtube, his limbs were just a bit less than 1/2 inch when finished and the bow was a 55lb'er at 28.
For fine work on any wood I don't use a rasp. I go with a small plane or a Stanley 81 scraper. It's much easier to take off just a bit here or there with a blade.
I think thats too short for a 28" draw length, especially with short working limbs. Give it a try, but I think you're going to either end up with enourmous set and chrysaling or a bow of maybe 30#.
I also think its too short, next time around it will be longer for sure. What would you say is a better length?
However the plans came right from youtube except for the add ons I put on the limb tips, the builder got 48# @29 inches.
The more I think about it I will aim for right around 40# on this one, as 35# is the min weight for hunting here.
If it works it will be great, if not, I will have at least learned a little.
I didn't tiller any today, but I made another string, its a hair long as I ended up with less than a hand and thumb distance, but maybe that's good as I still need much tillering.
I see several new folks making this design. In my opinion, this is advanced work. Make a few straight limbed, normal tiller bows before you try this. Here is a good tute: http://sticknstring.webs.com/ferretsboardbow.htm
And just saying, red oak is not the best choice for this design. I understand that it is cheap and available. But is that where you want to lay the foundation for your craft? Finding good wood can be hard. But it is worth it.
The next build will not be a molly, it is a bit tricky, and I do have this gut feeling longer would be better. I think the design is very cool and I will build more like this for sure though
Here is the string I did, its still long, as the brace was low, but it was on purpose, to have an intermediate tiller string (and more practice).
(http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w465/Galvell/100_2708_zps086cdfa4.jpg) (http://s1077.photobucket.com/user/Galvell/media/100_2708_zps086cdfa4.jpg.html)
Well I got a little more brave and worked the mid limb to outer fade more, and things were looking better...
Then I flexed it too much...and got this.
(http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w465/Galvell/100_2724_zps4302ed78.jpg) (http://s1077.photobucket.com/user/Galvell/media/100_2724_zps4302ed78.jpg.html)
Sent this limb over 10 feet...
(http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w465/Galvell/100_2723_zpse54ea042.jpg) (http://s1077.photobucket.com/user/Galvell/media/100_2723_zpse54ea042.jpg.html)
(http://i1077.photobucket.com/albums/w465/Galvell/100_2727_zpsb3a253f4.jpg) (http://s1077.photobucket.com/user/Galvell/media/100_2727_zpsb3a253f4.jpg.html)
I also got a bloody face from smacking it into the screws sticking out of my tiller tree. Three nice bloody wounds, between the eyes, on my nose, and above my lip.
But hey, I don't feel too bad, I learned something, and can't wait to get back at it. I'll be looking for the right board right away.
I wish I had not messed up the first backing attempt, as I wonder how it would have held up during the break?
(I didn't go into the backing issue I had here, but if you want to read about it check out "my failures in board bow building" at the "bushcraft usa" forum.)
I suspect it was the arrow shelf that did me in, I had fears about it, the handle and shelf were the first mistakes I made in this build.
I'm with John on this one, if you want a bow for hunting the the design of a flat bow can't be beat!
Another thing a lot of people forget it is during the process; is to to never pull the bow past the intended draw weight.
*when floor tillering place the tip on the bathroom scale.*
Ouch; sorry to read about your bow but glad that you're okay. You should put a pulley on your tillering tree so you can stand clear of it when you flex the limbs. I've also learned through my own board bow failures that my wood choice literally makes or breaks the bow. I've tried lighter woods like cherry and walnut on R/D style bows and found that they just can't tolerate the limb stress inherent in those designs. Now I use stronger woods; osage or hickory.
Glad to hear that you are undeterred, though. Good luck on your next one.