Hey guys :wavey:
Hope your projects are going well tonight.
While I'm waiting for my boo and Ipe to arrive, I decided to put together a form for my BBI.
I'm worried it might be too curvy.
Right now I just have a pc of 3/16" pine that I shaped to the same outline I plan on using for the bow in the form.
I've never even touched Ipe before so I really have no idea how much it can bend.
Also a little worried about how much bend I can get away with on the bamboo mid limb where it's bending "backwards".
The center post is 4.5".
The mid limb pads are 1.5"
The tip posts are 5"
Looking at the pic now..It does look like things are uneven...It's just because I couldn't get into a postion to shoot the forn straight on.
I assure you ..it is evened up..
..What do you guys think?..Too much to work?
Thanks
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/BBI%201/Formtestwpine.jpg)
so maybe I should just shorten the center post an inch or two.
And possibly raise the tips
I've always liked the feel of more grip forward bows.
That's why I put such a high center post in.
I just have no idea how much spring back I'll get.
I was thinking the middle would spring back more than the tips because of it being thicker...I guess just the opposite is true..go figure..lol
I'll be redoing it soon...
Thanks Scott
have to admit..
I was a little worried I'd have to brace the thing at 9" or something to keep the string off mid limb.
...yeah..It's gonna get gutted..
lol
Center post 3 3/4
Mid limb posts 2 3/4
Tip posts 6
its already been said, but my next one will look something like yours, but with the center post about 2" shorter.... actually i will probably just follow Roy's dimensions to the letter.
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/IMG_7438.jpg) (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/ROY-CHRIS/media/IMG_7438.jpg.html)
Zradix, if you bring the centerpost down 2" you'll be within 1/4" of roy's rocommendation. That's probably the way to go.
Wood bows will get plenty of reflex through set which occurs during tillering and shooting ...
Wood bows will get plenty of reflex through set which occurs during tillering and shooting ...
Oh really? LOL come on Ben..
Just did exactly that Ben....
Puts me very close to you and Roy.
Thanks for confirming my thoughts.
2.5" center
1.5" mids
5" tips
Looks much more reasonable..
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/BBI%201/formfinal.jpg)
Much better.
looks sexy
:saywhat:
As I NEED a bow right now I'll build it on the form as is.
If it goes smoothly and I think it'll go further, I'd like to try raising the center about .75-1" and the tips 1" on the next one. :rolleyes:
...maybe a boo back with a lighter core wood and an ipe belly so I can use thinner strips and get some more bend out of it ...
They call me Mr. never satisfied..well everyone but my Wife..lol
I kin just imagine what she calls you... :laughing: :nono:
I bet you can Roy...I bet you can..lol
if she's anything like my wife she's probably saying stuff like " you already have a bow, why do you need to build another one? i don't understand why you need all these bows" and im all like... I don't know why you need all them shoes...
...LOL..
Nah..She's great about this stuff..as long as I use MY $$$ not OUR $$$.
Actually she thinks I'm a little crazy for selling my one bow..just to afford taking a chance on making one.
ya you are a little crazy for doin that
NAH..
When you know what ya want you just know....
..I just hope I'm not wrong..lol
Just got a call from Matt.
The wood is going to the PO today! :bigsmyl:
Should have it early/mid next week.
Just Ohio to Michigan...could drive there and back in a day.
Sure is a good guy. Thanks for telling me about him Eric.
The Ipe is going to be 3/4" thick.
I'm getting another pc of boo and 2 PL's also.
Have a couple riser options coming too.
And some horn..
Going to have enough for 2 bows... :rolleyes:
Going to have a hard decision on whether to use an Osage or a walnut PL...hhhmmm
I'm kinda scared of ripping that Ipe board in half.
The saw I'm able to use has an 1/8" kerf.
So that leaves me with 2- 5/16" boards.
I see most guys use 3/8" but it seems they all scrape them down to 3/16" or so.
What do you guys think..?
For a 66" tip to tip bow trying to be 45-50# @28"
Is a 5/16" board thick enough?
methinks it will be fine... the ipe is thinner than that on the working portion of my limbs.
that sounds like a better idea to me Vanillabear.
You won't get much springback at all when gluing in reflex/deflex. Personally, I would move the center posts out maybe 2" from the handle.
The first time you tiller one of these bows you'll be confused. But watch the limbs move and don't take too much off until you get it bending about 20". They really start to come full circle the closer you get to full draw.
You don't have to worry so much about set since you will be really close to final dimensions, assuming you did everything right. If your design, measurements and layout are really well done, these kind of bows are almost tillered on glueup.
Thanks for the advice guys.
John..Why would you move the posts out further?
Right now I have them so the actual center of the limb is centered right on the middle of the pad.
From what I read, moving them out further will make the bow like lighter arrows.
Also, it will put a more pronounced/agressive bend at the tips.
Neither of these things sound particularly bad, though I'll most likely be shooting in the 11.5 gr/# arrow range.
I'm not arguing with ya John..
Just asking for an education buddy..
:help:
Zradix here is my theory on mid limb post placement... and its based solely on my own ponderings and i took a physics class once. if the reflex to deflex transition is occuring more towards the handle, it puts more of the limb mass moving in the later part of the power stroke, meaning more momentum, meaning more efficient with a heavier arrow. if the transition is happening closer to the tips, there is less limb mass moving at the end of the powerstroke, meaning faster.. meaning it throws a lighter arrow more efficiently.
That's more or less my understanding as well Eric.
Has to do with the efficiency of the wood and the moving mass I believe.
Man when you got it, you got a bad case of it, whatever it is that you got...... :goldtooth: :biglaugh:
Mostly visual for me. I abandoned physics after 2 weeks and the first quiz :)
I learned BBOs from Dean and others on the ***********. I was instructed to get my core to 3/16" thick or so and well tapered so that's what I have always done. I never got much springback doing that. That should get you to 50-60# depending with a 1-1/4" width and a 60-64" NTN length.
Every material has a thickness that it will work best at without taking a set. 3/16"-7/16th seems to be a sweet spot for good osage in a BBO. Adjust width to adjust weight from there.
Good info
Thanks John
looking good zradix brave move selling a brought bow to finance making your own but nothing in life is worth doing without a bit of risk. good luck
:pray:
lol
Zradixy ole boy, just use the post specs I said above. I learnt form Dean Torges also. And yunzs are right on your theory of mid limb placement. Posts closer to the handle work more limb for shooting a heavier arrow. Posts moved more towards the tips shoots a lighter arrow faster. But I really doubt we could see the difference with the naked eye if both bows were 50 pounds at 28". Lately I have been placing my mid limb posts exactly half way between the tips and the flares. Ya otta flip the tips too before ya glue her up. Makes for a sexy looking bow.
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/IMG_7429.jpg) (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/ROY-CHRIS/media/IMG_7429.jpg.html)
Wait wait wait.!!
I need some lingo edumacation..
What/where are the flares? ( end of the power lam?)
..I have my mid limb posts so the middle of the limb (measured from the center of the bow to the tip) ,rests on them.
I measured and marked my template slat. Then placed the pads so they were right under the mark.
Is that not good?
Now ya got me thinking maybe I should measure the "mid limb" from the end of the power lam to the tips?
What is "flip the tips"?
Thanks
I don't use a power lam. I glue up the boo and osage first. Then after that's dry I lay the riser section of the bow on top of the side of riser block and trace out the curve onto the riser block, then cut that curve out of the riser block. Then glue the riser block onto the bow with the center of it centered on the center of the bow tip to tip.. I make my risers anywhere from 10 to 12 inches long. The flares are the widest part of the bow limb at the end of the riser. I center my mid limb posts half way between the flares and limb tips. The way you describe is moving your mid limb posts closer to the end of the riser. Flipping the tips is inducing reflex at the end of the limb tips with heat, about 8 inches in from the end of the tips. Gives the bow profile a little recurve look.
When you glue up the belly wood and boo, the riser section of the bow will now have a curve in it. You see how the center of this glue up is curved? You have to make a riser block to fit that curve.
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/IMG_7439.jpg) (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/ROY-CHRIS/media/IMG_7439.jpg.html)
You then need to cut out a block of wood for the riser/handle section of the bow. You take the bow and lay it on it's side on top of the side of the riser block you have cut out. Trace that outline and cut out the outline. Then you glue the riser block to the bow like in this picture below.
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/IMG_7371.jpg) (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/ROY-CHRIS/media/IMG_7371.jpg.html)
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/IMG_7372.jpg) (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/ROY-CHRIS/media/IMG_7372.jpg.html)
I see..
Thanks Roy.
You're exactly right in my mid posts being closer to the riser.
I had heard "middle of the limb".
I shoulda heard middle of the working limb.
I'll be playing with that a bit over the next few days.
Thanks for the help guys.
I truly appreciate it.
The flipped tips do look nice.
Doing that feels outta my skill level at the moment.
That is the way I'm planing on doing the riser..after the boo and ipe are glued.
Read that advice on Eric's build
you guys are great!
Flipping the tips is a piece of cake. I made a 7 inch long curved block and place it under the belly wood. Clamp the bow at center so it doesn't move. Heat the last 8 or 9 inches on the tips with a heat gun till it's almost too hot to touch, then clamp it down and let sit till it cold.
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/flip2.jpg) (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/ROY-CHRIS/media/flip2.jpg.html)
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/flip1.jpg) (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/ROY-CHRIS/media/flip1.jpg.html)
Darnit Roy..
You're making more work for me.
lol
You make it look easy man.
I'll be thinking bout this move.
When you do that, do you keep the same end post height as normal?
Or do raise them a bit to account for the pre glued bend?
I would think it might take some practice to do that evenly on each end.
This is gonna be sweet..
I keep the end posts still at 6. When making a wooden bow, ya don't want to get too crazy with reflexing tips. Some guys do, not me.
Who in the world would use IPE, when there's Osage out there? :)
This guy is using Ipe this time around.
So Ipe and heat don't play well together?
Zradix, just so you know, I had alot of crazy ideas going into building that bow.... and Roy shot most of them down. :laughing: but i followed every bit of his advice, even when i had doubts, and i can promise you that bow wouldnt have came out so well if i didn't
I hear ya Eric.
I am trying to follow the great advice I'm getting here from you and others.
I think I just misunderstood a few instructions.
I am so very appreciative of all the help I'm getting.
I don't get this much help from family...lol
Well I split the distance from the edge of my power lam to the tips and put the pad there.
I believe that is what I have been advised to do.
The tips look a little steep to me..but I've never done this before.
Course clamping a this piece of pine is nothing like clamping a 3/8" pc of ipe and boo with a bunch of grease all over it...
I'm worried the tips will break if I try to clamp it like this.
Does this setup look right to you guys?
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/BBI%201/formfinal2.jpg)
Your form looks fine, the dry run will be stiffer than the actual glue up. The glue seems to soften the fiber tension in your boo and wood. If you follow Roys form for flipping the tips you will be fine, the belly of the static tips will be completely supported by the form, minimal stress cracks if any and since they are static super glue will work. Ipe when heated to the right temp makes the back of the tips shine like a gloss finish and will be hot to the touch. But I would save that for your next bow since I get the impression you want to hunt with this one soon LOL
I've never used IPE, the first and only time I was exposed to it was when a buddy came over to my shop and was rasping and sanding on IPE. I got a severe reaction from it. So I had no idea that IPE doesn't like heat treated, sorry bout that.
Your form there is fine, but the reason it's showing so much reflex at the tips is because you have the tips out past the outer edge of the end post. The more you move those end posts in towards the riser, the higher it's going to push up those tips. OR now that I think about it, it's because your mid limb posts are way shorter than mine and causing more reflex. I would take about an inch off your end posts.
Note my end posts below.
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/IMG_7438.jpg) (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/ROY-CHRIS/media/IMG_7438.jpg.html)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGXmqFxUjHU
Darn,
Guess I did not get the memo :D
(//%5Burl=http://s309.photobucket.com/user/mjoeh/media/archery/IMG_0284.jpg.html%5D%20%5Bimg%5Dhttp://i309.photobucket.com/albums/kk376/mjoeh/archery/IMG_0284.jpg)[/url] [/IMG]
This ipe was heat gun bent using a form on the back of the slat.
I wouldn't mind hearing a little more on bending the IPE.
Just dry heat and a caul?
I use a shorter handle/ riser than Roy and I use a power lam.
My handle is usually more like 8 inches.
From center of bow I put my blocks at 16 inches for bows 64 to 66 inches.
Sorry it's taken me so long to reply guys.
Between the flu and my Son B-day party I've been pretty busy.
Roy..
My blocks are all shorter than yours...but they have the same difference between them within 1/4" So the overall "bends" should be about identical.
I understand what you're saying about the tip overhanging a bit.
I thought I should leave a little hanging out so I could put a clamp right on the tip.
I see in your vid you don't have anything clamping the last inch or so.
How long is that bow in the vid?
I was thinking that if yours is longer, that might be why mine looks to have more curves in it too...ie same bend height over shorter distance.
I may very well move the tip posts out a tad.
I really appreciate all the help guys.
I think I'll play around with the tip flipping with the piece of ipe I'll be trimming off the slat before I try it on the good pc.
That part has me pretty worried.
Might not be bad at all once I just DO IT.
I'm thinking of a 9" handle section with a 12" power lam.
then keeping the 1.25" width for 2-3" after the tip of the PL.
Thanks again Sages.
The bow is 66 tip to tip. I cut the last 2.5 inches of boo off at an angle to put on horn tip over lays so it's clamped to with in an inch of the end which is good.
By you having the tip out past the end post, your making the post act like 6 inch posts at least.
yep.
I hear what your saying Roy.
I'll have to move the tips posts out a bit.
I plan on doing the horn tips as well.
Cool
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/IMG_6985.jpg) (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/ROY-CHRIS/media/IMG_6985.jpg.html)
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/IMG_6986.jpg) (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/ROY-CHRIS/media/IMG_6986.jpg.html)
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/IMG_6987.jpg) (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/ROY-CHRIS/media/IMG_6987.jpg.html)
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/IMG_6989.jpg) (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/ROY-CHRIS/media/IMG_6989.jpg.html)
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/WP_000382.jpg) (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/ROY-CHRIS/media/WP_000382.jpg.html)
thats about how I was thinking of doing it Roy.
What type of glue should I use?
I'll be gluing buff horn to ipe and boo.
It looks like you leave about 1/8" of belly at the tip.
And you said above you cut 2.5"
So it sounds like I should make a mark 2.5" from the tip on the back. Then make a mark 1/8" up from the belly tip..and sand away.
I did move my tip posts out about 1.25".
Now there is only about .25" of tip unsuported.
I tried to clamp a piece of 3/8" thick pine in the jig...lol
sssnnnaaaaapppp..lol
Didn't help aleive my worries of whether or not the ipe can bend that much..
I use smooth on for tip over lays. Pine will snap. Your right on how to measure it.
If ya don't mind me askin what type of glue do you guys use for the wood i'll be makin a hickory/oak bow and was planning on using tightbond 3
hi beast.
I'm new at this but from what I've read T3 is good for perfect mating surfaces as it doesn't have gap filling properties. And you want the surfaces smooth.
I'll be using uinbond 800 for my BBI. With this glue you want to rough up the surfaces a bit. Many drag a hacksaw blade over the surface to do that.
QuoteOriginally posted by Roy from Pa:
I use smooth on for tip over lays. Pine will snap. Your right on how to measure it.
smoothon...nuts..lol Don't have any of that.
Would regular 2 part epoxy, uni bond, or superglue gel suffice?
Thanks
Do not use regular 2 part epoxy, or superglue for laminating the boo on.
Smooth=on, unibond 800/urac 185 or Titebond3. Your choice for laminating the bow.
For the tips superglue gel or smooth on in my opinion. I don't know how unibord will adhere to horn. You could test it though. Typicaly cyanoacrylate (supoerglue) bonds extremely well with biomaterials like horn ,... or your skin ...
As for the bend in the ipe. I do not think you will get it to make that bend without some kind of bending beforehand with either dry heat or steaming. I've tried to reflex ipe cores before and have snapped them. I don't thhink you will even get close to making that bend with a plain ipe slat 3/8" thick.
I would either try to pre-bend it with heat, or rip the ipe into two slats of 1/8" (I'm assuming you will lose 1/8" from saw kerf), and add a core lam of something else like maple or walnut (1/8" thick) between the boo and ipe to bring you back to 3/8" total thickness. The thin pieces should make the bend fairly easily I think.
If you do that though you might need to taper one or more of the center laminations so that you dont end up tillering through the ipe on the belly.
The epoxy will work for the over lays. Lots of guys us super glue but I don't.
well jeez Ben..that rains on my parade..lol
I do appreciate the heads up.
hhmmmm...Not sure what to do right now.
Flipping the tips sounds the best right now..
QuoteOriginally posted by LittleBen:
......
If you do that though you might need to taper one or more of the center laminations so that you dont end up tillering through the ipe on the belly.
That was my worry while reading your post Ben.
That sounds beyond my realm of knowledge at this point.
Maybe after I get at least one under my belt..lol
I thought when doing a laminated you tillered by taking or shaving wood off the sides...
of coarse i don't have any experience with this as of yet i'm on my first bow
With glass bows I think this is true, but my experience with wood laminates is that it's hard to get the stack thickness perfect (hard to predict) so you end up tillering both, sides and belly.
Zradix, maybe the thing to do is just put some simple reflex into it. You can probably get 2-3" of reflex bu just eliminating the mid limb posts and clamping the handle to the center post and the tips to the outer posts, that will drastically decrease the bend, but you will still get a nice performing bow ... then again I'm just partial to reflexed longbows.
I think I'm just going to wait until I get the ipe in the mail.
Take it down to thickness.
And just see how it feels.
I'll practice some heat bending on the scrap.
At that point I'll decide if I want/need to lower the tip posts.
Thank you for the help Guys.
QuoteOriginally posted by Roy from Pa:
The epoxy will work for the over lays. Lots of guys us super glue but I don't.
Cool!
I bought the unibond for the glue up as I had read the smooth on needs a heat box...I guess that wasn't true.
I have some slow cure epoxy that might just be the ticket for the tips..also have some good gel type super glue for feathers that seems like darn good stuff. I'll probably try a little test with each and see which one needs a bigger hammer to get it to come apart..lol
damnit boys..lol
You got me all work up with worries now about if I'm gonna crack the ipe.....
Zradix. chill man! take a look at my build again. I had no problem putting that bend in mine. I know you are trying to push the envelope and get as much R/D as you can... and as much speed as you can.... and as short as you can.... but the bow i made, is moderate in R/D, no flipped tips, nothing crazy... but it shoots FAST. and its a dream to shoot. you don't have to get to crazy. you won't have any problem following Roy's advice. I sure didn't.
I have been Eric..
I've been overlaying your pics over mine on photoshop..the whole bit..lol
YOU NAILED my wants though..lol
For this one, I'm just gonna play it sorta safe though.
Right now I have my blocks set with the same difference in height as Roy..well my middle block is just a tad higher.
I've moved the tip blocks out..well to the tips.
So that got rid of a bit of the sharp curve.
I also moved my mid blocks in just a bit too.
It looks ...well..not as scary now..lol
Did get in the horn today..so that's a good thing.
Here's how it looks now..
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/BBI%201/formfinal3.jpg)
Here's how it was...
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/BBI%201/formfinal2.jpg)
i think it looks perfect now. :thumbsup:
Thanks for the reassurement Eric.
She looks more like a graceful glider than a fighter jet.
..though..Corsairs could certainly hold their own.
Graceful lines are GOOD.
graceful gliders are good.
just received some wood in the mail.
Guess I'll be making some sawdust tonight.
:thumbsup:
dbl post
IPE cracks all the time.
And I mean all the time.
ROFLMAO..........
Just messen wif ya John.. :laughing:
Thanks for the confidence booster Roy.
That just puts a nice spring in my step.
...lol.. :bigsmyl:
gonna be a loooong 4 hrs till I can start...
:scared:
don't rush it! measure twice, cut once!
Thanks Eric.
So I received this pile of wood today..
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/BBI%201/SANY0356.jpg)
After looking things over a bit..not really knowing what to look for..but seeing nothing obviously bad, I started measuring the boo.
Found the node placement didn't really cooperate on the pc with the longer distance between nodes.
So I went with choice 2..already back peddling..lol
I found I could cut this pc and have a node at 5.25" from each tip.
After cutting to length, I found the center lengthwise...made a mark.
Then found the center widthwise..made a cross.
Then I found the thickest part on each end and tried to stretch a string between those points and thru the center...that didn't really work out.
So I moved the line on the tips to the spots that looked best to me, while still having the string cross at the center.
After I was satisfied on the placement of the string I made a mark where the string lied on the tips...to be the center of the tips.
After that I connected the dots lengthwise to make a center line down the boo.
With these lines in place, I then carefully measured and drew out the layout for the bow.
This bow is going to be appx 1.25" wide thru the handle and power lam.
The handle will be 9"
The PL 12"
I'm planning on keeping the 1.25" width 4" past the PL.
Then doing a straight taper to 1/2" tips.
66" tip2tip
Here's the overall layout..
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/BBI%201/SANY0357.jpg)
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/BBI%201/SANY0359.jpg)
Then it was off to the sander to taper the boo down to the lines..
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/BBI%201/SANY0360.jpg)
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/BBI%201/SANY0361.jpg)
At this point I started thinning down the boo.
At first I used the table sander.
Sanding with the boo at a bit of an angle down to near the edge on both sides so that a crown was left in the middle.
I just couldn't see well enough to try and keep the boo flat on the sander and not be afraid of going too far on the side I wasn't looking at that particular moment.
After The edges were pretty thin, I carefully worked the crown down a bit with the sander.
Then it was time for the block..
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/BBI%201/SANY0362.jpg)
I got it very evenly sanded..that took quite a while..
I was thinking about the advantage of a shorter bow at this point..lol
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/BBI%201/SANY0364.jpg)
I did have one scary oops though.
I got one spot a little too thin right next to a node..
This kinda freaked me out ..
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/BBI%201/SANY0366.jpg)
After, measuring, laying the boo on my pine template I've been playing with, and a little hope..lol
I'm pretty sure I left things just wide enough in my rough out to compensate for this edges of disaster.
Then it was time to play with the ipe.
I had been a little leary of working with the ipe as I've heard some people have a really bad reaction to the stuff.
But it was time.
So off to the table saw to rip it to a thickness of 3/8".
Then a width of 1.25"
And cut to the 66" length.
didn't start coughing a gagging ..whew.
I was wearing a dust mask though..
Then I laid the boo on the ipe and traced it out.
Then back the sander to rough out the ipe's shape.
Ended up like this..
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/BBI%201/SANY0365.jpg)
Tomorrow (if I can find time) will be shaping the PL.
I have a couple questions though guys.
can you go TOO thin on the boo?
This stuff is down to about a knife edge.
I thought thinner was better..maybe I went too far?
The center is a knife edge too, but as it's wider it's also a bit thicker there...little under 1/8" about .12.
so..the thickness of the boo does taper from center to tips..getting thinner. to about .04
Obviously that one spot by the node got too thin..but I'll be sanding down right to the deepest part in final sanding.
also..and a little less important..
I can use ipe of osage for the PL..what do you think?
The boo is ok but you should have left the IPE wider than the bows profile of the boo, then after glue up, cut the bow out to the outline of the boo. But it will still make a bow. The lam will be fine.
how much outside the line did you cut on each piece?
I didn't see your little Boo oop's before. Cut it up and throw it away, it's garbage now son.
Ya throw it away yet?
LMAO...........
It will be fine, John. Your going to rasp in facets on the back and belly edges of the bow anyway and that little oop's will get rasped away then. Your boo will be very thin there though but it should be fine. It looks to be 7 or 8 inches from the tip so that part of the limb won't/shouldn't be bending much at all. You want to keep the last 7 or 8 inches of the limb tips fairly stiff.
Ya got me Roy.
My heart sank.
And then a revival!...lol
The reason I tapered the ipe is because it did NOT want to go into the form. So I tapered it so I could get some bend in it.
I'm still a bit worried on the tip flip.
There's another thread on here talking about it with ipe.
seems it can be done, but sounds a bit touchy.
..I'm not so good with touchy things...
Eric,
I can't explain it yet..
I know that's sounds insane.
But the fact is I tried to leave about a 16th or so around the bow.
Those digs look deeper than that.
I know it was late last night, but I just looked again this morn and things still look like they'll work.
I'll be double checking the whole deal again before proceeding.
Thanks!
so you "tried" to leave a 16th... did you or didn't you? haha whats the width of that boo boo in the boo? if you are on thin ice you might want to use that other piece of boo. just position it so that nodes are equal distance from the tips, nevermind where they fall in the middle. you want to leave plenty of extra until after glue up, because once you get all the glue on there and put them together they are going to slide around once the clamps come down. you can minimize it though by wrapping in masking tape just to hold them in place.
that is a good thought Eric.
It is tempting.
I'll have to study things a bit more before making a decision.
Thank you
QuoteOriginally posted by Roy from Pa:
LMAO...........
It will be fine, John. Your going to rasp in facets on the back and belly edges of the bow anyway and that little oop's will get rasped away then. Your boo will be very thin there though but it should be fine. It looks to be 7 or 8 inches from the tip so that part of the limb won't/shouldn't be bending much at all. You want to keep the last 7 or 8 inches of the limb tips fairly stiff.
Was I wrong in thinking you want to get the boo as thin as possible?
Also..my boo is tapered in thickness.
Is that correct?
Or is it supposed to be the same thickness at the crown all the way?..which of course will keep the edges at the tips thicker.
I have a spare pc of boo..and I'm not afraid to use it..lol
Thank you much.
maybe my ratio would be better with thicker boo?
hell I don't know.. :knothead:
hell all you had to do was do exactly what i did! but noooo.... had to try and get fancy.... :laughing:
I can't help it.
I always gotta add my thoughts to something..for better or for worse.
Yeah..I just hope it's fancy..lol
I ended deciding to work down another boo back, and just see which I liked better.
The second one was better.
Figured out a better way to situate the nodes then the first time I looked at it.
Ends up I'll be able to trim two of them right off when I do the tips.
Did a dry run tonight..
Learned a few things while doing it.
..where clamps have to go..where c-clamps were needed...if I indeed had enough clamps..lol
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/BBI%201/DRCLAMPMID.jpg)
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/BBI%201/DRCLAPLEFT.jpg)
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/BBI%201/DRCLAMPRIGHT.jpg)
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/BBI%201/dryrun.jpg)
Then I just couldn't keep myself from going the rest of the way..lol
I roughed up the pcs with a hacksaw blade.
Mixed up the glue unibond 800.
I used 100gms liquid and 10 grams powder..seemed to be about right.
So I slathered the stuff on.
Not near as messy as I was expecting.
Not as slippery either..the lams didn't slide around as much as I thought they would.
Didn't get any pics of the gluing.
I was concentrating pretty hard on what I was doing as this being my first time gluing anything like this.
Anyway..here's the proof..
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/BBI%201/GLUEDPROFILE.jpg)
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/BBI%201/GLUERIGHTTIP.jpg)
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/BBI%201/GLUEDLEFT.jpg)
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/BBI%201/GLUEDLENGTH.jpg)
Of course..the suspense is killing me.
much...MUCH worse than knowing a bow is in the mail..lol
So I gotta ask..
How long till I get to unwrap it?..12 hrs?..24 hrs?
Thanks
i did mine at night before bed... took it out the next day after work.... so .... 20 hrs or so..... make sure its warm enough whereever it is..... you may need to build a SWTR. looks good man. looks good. you worry me going so fast though! took me several weeks to get to glueup. but i see you got all manner of power tools going on there. my lack of power tools may have been a blessing for my first bow. forced me to go slow.
hey wait a sec.... weren't you going to do a power lam? is it in there?
:scared: :eek: :scared:
:knothead: :help:
Your first boo was fine. You want it very thin.
Like I was saying earlier..you are a busier man than I Eric.
I've just been able to work on it from about 9pm till 3am one night. And from about 9pm till 1am last night. ...and still get few hrs sleep before taking the kids to school.
So I have some time in it..
...I'm not really cheatin...lol
I've been lucky enough to be able to use a building where I used to help make Megalogs....they're like REALLY big lincoln logs.
There isn't much there to use..but the space is nice.
and I had permission to turn it up to 80Ëš!
There's a cut off saw, table saw...and a dual drum planer sander..
I had to figure out how to paper those drums..bit of a trick to that..lol
That big thing behind the jig is a "home made" gang dado saw for making the slots in the logs.
OH and my trusty ryobi belt/disc sander..
I did miss using the hand plane though.
Lots of hand sanding with a block though on the boo..lots..so I got my hands dirty..lol
Thank you for the time rec.
Let's see..1am Wed...1am Thurs..
Should be able to get to it Thurs..maybe in the morn...
...And thank you...
I do have a power lam stuck in there...good catch..lol
QuoteOriginally posted by Roy from Pa:
Your first boo was fine. You want it very thin.
Thank you Roy.
The new one is almost as thin..still knife edge..or just a literal hair from it. But I didn't get it too thin at the spots around the nodes like a few spots were in the first.
Just the new one didn't have the "oops" in it.
The glue up profile looks nice, I think you will like the out come:)
Well thank you Roy.
I sure hope so.
You've been a GREAT help man.
Thank you!
..just hoping those glue line are good..no crushed boo..
OH..I did take some time and contoured some of those pressure blocks for the thicker part of the boo where it had more of a curve to it.
Thanks for the tip.
Start saving the scrap pieces of boo and cut them into 2 inch pieces. Or use a piece of boo that's not so bow worthy and make a bunch.
Lookin awesome Zradix can't wait to do mine though...i'm gonna need more clamps...hmm.
if you have the $$$ I'd really recommend some decent c-clamps.
There more of a pain to use but I personally felt more secure where I used them.
..but for most of the bow you're only pressing that thin pc of boo down.
The spring clamps were $1 ea at home depot.
i'll be doing a tri lam maple between hickory so probably need the c's for the whole thing
btw where did you place your power lam in the bow?
I plan on using a 9" handle.
I made the PL 3/16" thick and 12" long.
The handle and PL are in the center of the bow..I guess some offset..but that seems way to complicated for my simple mind..lol
oh maybe you meant where in the stack?..if you'd call it that..lol
It's between the ipe and boo.
LOL mine too. I have seen people on here put a lam between the backing and the bow not sure if thats what they called the pl...Ithought it should be between the handle and bow.
cool that answers my question. Sorry I'm just tryin to learn as much as i can here.
I think you can do it either way.
Basically you're just trying to stiffen the area where the handle goes so it doesn't want to flex so easily...takes some pressure off the handle glue joint so it isn't as prone to pop off.
Other guys don't use one at all..like Roy.
I just wasn't sure enough of my knowledge of how things were going to bend to not add a little extra "cushion" to my design.
here is a little better pic of it's location..
where the boo looks thick is the PL..it's osage
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/BBI%201/DRCLAMPMID.jpg)
QuoteOriginally posted by alteredbeast:
cool that answers my question. Sorry I'm just tryin to learn as much as i can here.
ME TOO!!
no problem man.
I'll happily share what I've picked up..but I don't have a whole lot of knowledge just yet...lol
hey..just remembered one reason I figured was the best reason for putting the lam between the back and belly....
it was going to be a hell of a lot easier to bend the boo to the taper than any part of the bow...
sweet can't wait to see how this turns out when it gets off the form!
looking good zradix completly missed your power lam in there it just blended in perfectly well done
WELL, Ya got a bow?
dooo...dooo....dooodoo...dooo..doo... dooooo! (to the tune of jeapordy theme)
you don't need to wait til 1 AM.... you can take it out now.... i know you want to.... :jumper:
took it off the jig this morn.
..not super happy..
Tips are twisted/bent over 1/2"-3/4" from center.
I have no idea how this happened..I had the jig marked on center and then marks where the outside of the wood should lay.
..hell..maybe the wood just wanted to bend a bit after being cut..?
So there's going to be some straightening to do.
My glue lines are fair to good over most of the bow.
There are a couple spots where there glue didn't seem to get out to the edge. Not sure how that happened either..
I had a LOT of glue all over this bow...not taking any chances type mentality..but that didn't work out..lol
One fade looks really good..the other...eh..I hope it'll be ok.
After I get the glue off and sand down the edges a bit, I'll be able to see how the glue lines really look.
At this point I think I'll be buying a tube of superglue..darnit..didn't want to have to do that.
She had a fair amount of springback.
Here the only pic I have at the moment..
Just gonna keep at it and see what happens.
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/outofformplasticon.jpg)
hmmm.... wonder why the tips would be off like that. i hate that it didnt turn out better. might be fine if you can get the tips back in line.
It might be the pic but your 2x6(?) base looks to be a bit twisted. I highly recommend you get Dean Torges' video "Hunting the Bamboo Backed Bow". (bowyersedge.com)
I use strips of innertubes and stretch them as I wrap between clamps set 3-4" apart. Alternate the direction that you wrap to keep forces relatively equal. That makes for real nice glue lines.
It'll be OK. Just keep at it. You didn't really expect your first one to be all that good did you?
I've only glued up a couple HBH bows and what I found on the first one on a trial run is that you need to be sure if your using big heavy C clamps to not put them all on one side it will twist from the weight of the clamps. After my first one I bought a bunch of cheap small clamps. Hope it turns out ok ... I bet you make a Bow out of it.
Thanks guys.
One thing I did notice John..
My 2x4 base board flexed from the force of bending the bow.
It seemed to stay straight..left to right..but curved slightly up and down.
The 2 x 4 is prolly pine. That's a soft wood. When you clamp down a bow, your form will twist with pine. My form is 1 inch thick oak with 1 inch steel angle iron bolted to each side.
And if you leave your belly wood 1/4 inch wider than your boo, then cut it out after glue up, you will have better glue joints.
Thanks for the tips!
!!!!GOOD NEWS!!!!
After cleaning off the boogers and sanding some facets..
my glue lines aren't bad at all!
Just didn't look worth a dirty penny right on the outside.
I'm so %#^^&$& relived I could darn near cry.
there is still hope...
...gonna get back to it..just wanted to share my excitement with some who can understand.
Roy..
You're so cool.. :notworthy:
My best Bud is 2nd in line at a machine shop.
I'd love to get a steel I-beam with locking rollers for the posts....
Just gotta scrape together the $$$
or..just drill a bunch of holes and use bolts...if I gotta do it all normal like..lol
maybe even cut some nice 3/4" plywood into 6" wide 8 foot long pcs.
Don't really need 8'..but you get the idea...
Then glue and screw em together..that should make for a tough beam...
All I KNOW IS MY PINE 2X4 DOESN'T WORK PERFECT.
Have a question guys.
I'm putting horn tips on this one...gonna try to do it like Roy.
Should I put those on before tillering or after?
Thanks!
thats strange to me.... i used a regular 2x4... im sure its pine..... and i didnt run into anything like that.... i didnt go for quite as much bend as you did.... but not to much less. glad your glue joints werent bad..... i had the same feeling when i first saw mine out of the form. can you show us a pic of how the limbs are twisted?
i put my tips on after i got a couple inches of bend.... and modified them as i went.
Thanks Eric.
Here's the best pic I good get.
My camera is almost as bad as my photography skills.
But this one seemed to show "reality" instead of fiction.
The dark spots are a few spots I spread a little SG just to be safe..
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/BBI%201/SANY0401.jpg)
it's not horrible and I think I can fix it along the way.
I know I've corrected worse on some old f-glass recurves.
I know it's bad enough that I'd be miffed if I paid someone for it..
i think you got a better eye than me! i dont see it. is the far tip a whisker right?
if thats the case... then u should be able to correct it when you sand down to the line.... thats why you left so much extra right!
Yes..it's to the right.
It's hard for me to photograph.
..and..uummm..eh..yeah..that's why I left sooo much extra..just in case this happened..lol
I didn't leave that much but I'm confident I'll be able to get it pretty close if not darn near perfect.
Got kinda dirty tonight..if ya didn't know better you'd think I was working on my truck..lol
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/BBI%201/SANY0403.jpg)
I decided that things looked good enough overall to glue this on...
Lots of sanding is where the "dirt" came from..
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/BBI%201/SANY0404.jpg)
I grind, install, and shape the tips prior to tillerirng. Prior to any tillering, I also establish all facets... limbs, handle, dips, trap the back... faceted end to end.
Zradix, did you pretaper the ipe before glue up, or did you leave it the full 3/8" thickness?
and dont forget to scrape the rind off of the boo becore tillering
you don't have to scrape the rind off of the bamboo before tillering, or ever for that matter. removing rind is one of the last things I do. usually after I decide a bow is ready for sanding and finish, after it has been shot a couple hundred times. you won't affect tiller or draw weight by removing the rind.
It looks like a bow:)
Miller, ok thanks.... I was under the impression it was at risk of lifting a splinter or something with the rind on, that not the case?
yes, that is not the case. you don't have to remove the rind at all. or you can remove part of it or all of it. it's just a skin, so to speak.
clumsy removal of the rind can cause any piece of bamboo a problem. best done with sharp cabinet scraper and sanding with finer grits and with heightened caution around nodes. I don't put anything more coarse than 150 grit on bamboo back. it's important to only remove the rind itself. if you get into the power fibers, it is trouble.
I agree with Jamie 100%. I think that many of the folks who think they had a bad piece of bamboo, actually got a little too agressive with removing all the rind, too much sanding, and/or concerned themselves too much with rounding off the nodes.
I like to leave some 'lip' on the nodes, and a wisp of rind in the subtle valleys of the bamboo's back. It ensures I didn't get into the power fibers, and it looks really nice after dying and spraying.
Any time I see someone's bamboo back pristinely clean and sanded so that absolutely no hint of rind remains, and the nodes are knocked off and sanded a lot, I worry for the bow's durability and longevity.
QuoteOriginally posted by talkingcabbage:
Zradix, did you pretaper the ipe before glue up, or did you leave it the full 3/8" thickness?
I pretapered width wise.
But the ipe, belly to back was straight.
Thanks for the help gents!
Jeff, Jamie I have a question. If we trap the back of a BBO bow, aren't we cutting into the power fibers? How do we get away with this? I've done it many times.
Trapping shouldn't cut into power fibers anymore than a normal width taper. It would be very gradual.
I would guess that the problem comes because people are sanding alot midway between nodes and are cutting a large number of fibers in one area across the limb. Or nicking the back with the scraper ... who knows.
QuoteOriginally posted by Roy from Pa:
Jeff, Jamie I have a question. If we trap the back of a BBO bow, aren't we cutting into the power fibers? How do we get away with this? I've done it many times.
I don't think having the back of your bow narrower than the belly has anything to do with getting into the power fibers.
I'm not sure what "trap" means to you, but if your bows aren't raising horrible bamboo splinters on the corners of the backing then you aren't getting into the power fibers. whether a bow has a rectangular or trapezoidal cross section is not relevant so long as you are only moderately chamfering the corners of the bamboo backing. if you get too happy rounding off those corners, you are inviting disaster in much the same way that you are inviting disaster by flattening the nodes too much.
By trapping I mean I angle my back side facets in maybe 3/16th towards the center of the boo from the edge of the limbs. Trapezoidal cross section would be the proper term.
got a picture that shows what your your cross section winds up looking like at mid-limb?
Not really, but lets say at mid limb, the back of the bow/boo is 3/4" wide and the belly of the bow/Osage is 1" wide. The edges are round.
I know what Roy's getting at, and I've actually had a couple splinters raise right there where the back and side of the trapezoid make that 'angle'... it usually happens at a node too... kinda where I filed into the side of the node as I created the trapezoid facet.
I'm appreciating this exchange.
But you gents are talking over my head a little as I am a very inexperienced and simple man.
Should I round over the back on a BBI just like I would a board bow?
Doing so would keep the boo from going right to the edge..because it's just a top layer.
Thank you very much. :thumbsup:
When any boo backed bow is trapped/faceted, you have to be cutting into those power fibers. Heck they run the entire circumference of the boo.
Jeff that's a good point on the nodes. I might try on the next one to stay at little wide right at the nodes. Almost like a reversed scallop bow:) LOL Bamboo backed bows are a love hate relationship:)
QuoteOriginally posted by Roy from Pa:
.... LOL Bamboo backed bows are a love hate relationship:)
Doesn't take long to figure that out ...lol
Just learned a lesson about an hour ago...
If your boo looks like it has a light scrape when you get it that doesn't even go through the "skin"...it can still be cracked underneath...
I was taking a bit of the skin off and realized it has some lengthwise only cracks..so that sucks.
I'm gonna fill with thin super glue and hope for the best.
This thing is whipping my butt..lol
Roy, et al, this stuff is pretty hard to articulate with words alone, pretty easy in person with bows in our hands, or at least a pencil and paper.
certainly, the edges of the nodes that can get scalped when we round off those corners are the most dangerous. only time I've had a problem is when I got into the edge of the node too much. I only did that one time. took my lump and learned my lesson. :knothead: actually, that was also some inexpensive experimental Moso bamboo, too. the fella I got it from lost a bow or two to the same problem. that's why I don't fall for $5 slats of bamboo for backing.
obviously, we are cutting through some power fibers when we cut our backing to its width profile. if this were a problem at all, bamboo would be useless as tension safe backing material, but I guess it isn't since we've all made successful bamboo backed bows.
it does seem like I'm doing it a little different than you's guys. at mid-limb, I don't really employ a facet where the side and back meet. I only slightly round off the corner of the bamboo. the side of the bow is the facet. the corner where the side meets the belly gets rounded considerably more, and I do facet that area for tillering purposes and aesthetics. I keep the belly on BBO's pretty dang flat.
Z, what your asking/suggesting sort of sounds like it might be going overboard a little. go easy on rounding off the edges of the bamboo.
checks in bamboo going north and south can be remedied with c/a glue. I've done it a bunch of times without issue, even years and thousands of shots later.
QuoteOriginally posted by J.F. Miller:
checks in bamboo going north and south can be remedied with c/a glue. I've done it a bunch of times without issue, even years and thousands of shots later.
That makes me feel better.
Thank you
So Moso boo is crap?
Is that the same as what may have been pronounced "mooshoo"
when I bought it?
You're not gonna hurt my feeling any.
I'd actually like to know what type is best..and why..if ya have a minute.
no, and yes. not all Moso bamboo is created equal, much like any typical bow wood. some is fantastic, some is worthless. is hard to know for sure unless you get it from a reputable source who knows where and how it is grown, and what to look for upon visual inspection. quality Moso is getting harder and harder to come by.
for that reason I went looking for something new. I don't think I'll be using Moso any longer as my supplier no longer sells the high quality stuff because they cannot get it. I found something else that is, at very least, as good as premium Moso, perhaps better. I just finished four bows in the last month or so with this new bamboo, and I'm very impressed so far. it's the real deal, I think.
Yeh I second fixing the longitudinal cracks with CA glue. I had one pop up a good splinter and that was fixed pretty quickly with CA and that bow is wtill fine knock on wood.
Thanks for the info J.F...even if ya didn't spill the beans...lol
Thank you for the good ideas everyone!
:thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Thanks for the info J.F...even if ya didn't spill the beans...lol
Ya that just wasn't right, Jamie:)
truth is, I'm ecstatic with what I've got, but time is the last and most important test. don't want to let the cat outta the bag until I'm more sure that I'm on to something, but so far, so good. I've been working on this for over a year now. got my first shipment of green poles in March of 2012. split, dried, graded by me, and now that it is on the backs of some bows, I can put it to the real test. eventually, I'm hoping to get it into the hands of people who want quality bamboo backing. not really availible in quantity, however.
I'll have some for sale at the OSTA State shoot in Willard, OH (north central) Labor Day weekend. perhaps before then if there is interest.
It's new to me that there could be a big difference between bamboo varieties... but really.... everything is new to me! i guess i just thought it all depended on how it was cared for.
The bamboo that I used on my BBO came from a seller on the big auction site who advertised it as Moso. I was happy to see that the nodes were spaced about 11" apart so I didn't have them close to the tips. I've noticed a small, very thin splinter in the center of the lower limb now, though. Seems fine since I CA glued it and I'm keeping my fingers crossed. Put me down as another one who is interested in finding a supplier of the good stuff.
takefive i lifted a splinter in in my bbi, and i superglued it and sinew wrapped it. its been fine for 1000+ shots since then.
that bow looks awesome so far good job :thumbsup:
since we've rather hijacked this thread, I'll start another to continue on with bamboo discussion. there appears to be a need for it.
what's going on with that bow over there? you have had all weekend to get it strung! what gives?!
all this talk of bamboo splinting scared him lol :laughing: hope its all going well talking of bows wheres your osage at eric
naw guys...
I just got home..
It's been on my mind CONSTANTLY.
My girl's had a full day of Dance/gymnastics recitals yesterday..
They also had a half day of it today...but I went to the Blessing of the bikes in Baldwin with some buddies today.
I should be able to get some stuff done tomorrow.
my osage is slow! got the ring chased for about half the stave. will keep ya posted.
Those navy boys don't know how to do a days work here ... can't even scrape down a bow. I'm obviously just messing with you. I'm gettting very little done here either ... just trolling Tradgang ... its sad really.
Yeah Eric those pin knots sound like a pain man..
Well I haven't gone completely stagnant on the bow.
Just been really hard to find time to work on it when I felt my mental state was ready...that's a trick in itself.
But it's coming.
Still need to sand the edges a bit to the lines..mostly at the last 10" or so. And contour the tips.
I didn't know what to do with the horn.
I know it's long. But my boo is so thin I was afraid if I used a standard angle I wouldn't have enough boo between the ipe and horn.
So I'm just hoping to keep the tips stiff..we'll see.
Here's where I'm at...
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/BBI%201/Riser.jpg)
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/BBI%201/32d41fd1-8f6e-4075-95b2-d8d41790eb43.jpg)
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/BBI%201/roughtip.jpg)
what is your handle made of?
macassar ebony.
Not the nicest looking piece.
I wanted something dark that was dense to help add a little weight to the bow and absorb a little bit of the vibes.
i like it. like the colors. you planning on staining the boo?
Thanks Eric.
Yeah, I'm going to try a walnut type stain I think..still undecided on the color. I have quite a few shades of brown.
I'm hoping the nodes naturally get darker from the stain..I like the dark node/lighter flats look.
I'm going to try to not get any stain on the osage PL.
I'm thinking it could look kinda cool in between the dark woods.
Yours will be much prettier.
I was just wanting a dark bow for some reason.
Looks real good. Alot better than the ones I made and blew up years ago. With all the great knowledge from the members on this site even Roy
I think the longer tips will be fine. I don't think thats going to add much weight at all. Actually ipe is pretty heavy so it might actually lighten it up ... i don;t know what the density of horn is, but i remember it not feelign that heavy.
Anyway, FWIW I think you'd have been fine going with a normal tip angle/length. The thickness of the boo should not matter really. Especially since the very tips dont bend usually.
Coming along very well. Can't wait to see this finished up.
THANKS GUYS.
I'm hoping to get it on the tree tonight.
This is taking toooooo long
yeah it is :laughing:
I believe I'm done with this one.
The ipe seemed to be very weak.
Chyrsals all over the place.
really weak draw weight.
Once I started scraping there seemed to be very, very tiny chalk like veins in the wood. Never noticed them when sanding.
Also seemed to be hard little bumps in the wood.
Almost look like little pimples or something.
Again didn't see them at all till scraping.
Hit the area with sandpaper and they disappear.
Scrape it and then you can see them.
I am more than bummed....
damn that sucks man. that really hurts me to hear. you were extremely invested in that bow. i wonder what was wrong. i know what you are talking about with the chalky veins.... but not the pimples. how did the tillering go? start off ok or downhill from the start? and most importantly... what next? you need a bow. i bet you could turn out a hickory backed hickory real quick and have a good bow while you think up something else.
Yeah the tillering started very well.
Things looked really good.
I was able to get to the short string almost immediately.
the mid limb bend was straightening out only slightly.
Took the scraper to mid limb both sides, just 10 good strokes each.
Put the string on and pulled it by hand back a few inches..maybe 10"
..looked at it..chrysals...I could hardly believe it.
lots of em on both limbs.
Yeah man..the "what next" wheels are turning..lol
Sorry to hear that. I've been there too. Have you thought about osage? I've made two r/d backed bows from osage boards I bought from Pine Hollow and have not had any problems with chrysals. The stuff is really tough and looks beautiful.
yes I have.
Sure is easier to see your pencil lines on lol
Just pretty pricey..maybe it's worth it?
Got pics? I've never used ipe but it has a decent reputation so let's figure out what went wrong.
Chrysals at 10" and at the start of tillering are unlikely. The wood is barely bending I mean.
p.s. you don't have to put tip overlay on until you get done tillering. Saves that bit of heartache at least when a bow-to-be fails.
No...
I was so bummed when this went down..I didn't take pictures.
I almost had a fire last night lol.
I'm thinking I may have had too thin of boo and too thin of ipe.
The boo was about as thin as possible for the tapered width.
Most pics I've seen have much more boo showing on the sides.
The ipe was 5/16".
When I tried putting the 3/8" pc into the jig I was fearful of it breaking. Maybe it wouldn't have but It looked/felt pretty crazy.
Couple that with what seemed to be some strange structures in the ipe and may as well go home..lol
I've heard the lighter ipe can be more fragile than the dark.
I really don't know what kind I had..never touched the stuff before.
You can see in the pic below that the ipe was lighter in color than the american walnut slat that was on the rack.
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/BBI%201/SANY0356.jpg)
I'm honestly wondering if I didn't actually get ipe.
Not blaming the guy that sent it to me at all.
But I have read about a few different species being grouped together and shipped over as "Ipe" for the construction industry.
Kinda like getting a "spf" 2x4..spruce, pine or fir....
now just looking at the above pic..
I must've been blind..but you can almost see the whitish veins in the ipe. And the little "spots".
I had never seen the wood before in my life.
I just assumed that ipe looked like this..
At least now I know what to look for.
I completely understand the chrysals showed up early.
I was dumbfounded.
I'm kinda over it.
I truly think that pc of ipe just wasn't for bows..
thanks for the tip VB
zradix im feeling your pain all the way here over the water hope its not going to get you down too long and that you bounce back stronger for the experience.
good luck with your next bow and remember third time lucky so all will turn out rosy on the next go
look forward to seeing what you will be up to next
Just get some of that yellar wood, John:)
ya... just make sure you got alot of time on your hands first!
i've only touched one piece of ipe as well, guess im lucky it was a good one. to be honest yours doesn't look any different in the pics... cameras play tricks though i guess. i would say osage would probably be a strong safe bet for another attempt. i know it might be a bit more expensive, but.... You need a bow bro! Its time to start for real practicing for hunting season. I have kinda let bow building get in the way of bow shooting, but im picking up a rinehart woodland buck tomorrow, and im going to bring my ladder stand out of the woods and set it up in the yard and get to work. need to get some arrows broadhead tuned for the BBI... cause thats my bow for this year. shot my glass centershot bow the other day, just because it's arrows have bright fletching, and i was shooting moving targets in the woods...... man... that bow just don't feel right anymore! for one thing i would have to re-calibrate my sight picture to shoot it as accurately, and it just... is missing something.... doesn't feel as snappy or something.... don't get me wrong, its a good deal faster than the BBI, but doesn't feel as good. wow im on a tangent.. forgot what thread i was on lol! anyway yeah... i would try osage.... actually i really want to try something like takefive's tri-lam..... but that has got to be trickier.
I'm not doing a stave.
But a bbo might be fun.
My PL is/was osage.
First time I'd ever seen unfinished osage.
It really is a beautiful wood.
Even though I'm not all that excited about yellow.
I hear UV changes the stuff.
Wonder what an hour in a tanning booth would do. :cool:
Honestly, these pictures I took in my basement don't do justice to the wood. In the sunlight it looks more gold than yellow with different shades of golden brown mixed in. The quarter sawn one just about shimmers. You can always stain it to make it darker, too. I put a light coat of Minwax Golden Oak and sealed it with satin poly on the osage from my tri-lam. I didn't stain the quarter sawn one, put 4 coats of amber shellac on it instead. Before I worked with it, I could not fathom what all the fuss over osage was about. I mean, I could buy 5 hickory boards for the cost of just one osage board. I get it now. When you see your finished BBO gleaming in the sunlight, I bet you'll be a believer, too :archer:
(http://i376.photobucket.com/albums/oo207/okdoak/Wooden%20bows/osage1_zps95b9788e.png)
(http://i376.photobucket.com/albums/oo207/okdoak/Wooden%20bows/osage_zpsf28b6d96.png)
Osage will darken to a honey brown in just a couple weeks if you put it in a sunny window.
Get some osage from Pine Hollow Longbows(sponser).Its very good wood and not that pricy. Then you can saw it into several billets and join them with a scarf joint to make your length.His osage rough boards are about 40" long so two strips make a bow board. :thumbsup: Bob
It's going to happen.
I know what you're saying Eric.
..it is getting to be time to be set and just practicing..not still figuring out things..
Oh well.
Good news though...I just got a line on a better jig base.
Not dealing with a 2x4 on the next one..lol
I don't want you guys to think I'm bad mouthing ipe.
I'm not really turned off by it.
I just think I need to learn more about wood and bow making in general.
To be honest, I truly think being able to see a pencil line sooo much easier on the osage will be really nice.
want a hophornbeam stave? it is freshly cut so you would need to speed dry it. no ring chasing. just pay shipping... let me know.
Thanks for the offer Eric.
Very generous of you.
But I think I just sold some stuff that will let me give it one more try with a bbo or maybe a bbi.
You're sure they were chrysals? it just seems so odd it chrysaled at such a low draw length. I mean even pine should have survived that much working.
yep.
deep too.
Had one that was next to the edge..went about 1/3 thru.
I'm personally amazed it didn't show up in he handle section right out of the jig.
who knows..I'm not going to worry about it.
I very well may cut the ebony off and save that for later.
Might use the limbs for some kind of wall hook/rack.
just sent pine hollow some $$$.
Should have a new project soon..
First step is building a new jig... a solid jig..pretty sure my 2x4 (pine) wasn't up to the task.
:thumbsup:
nice! what did ya get? i just learned of a local cabinet shop that has exotic and fine woods. going to go check it out once my account recovers from my rinehart deer target :biglaugh:
Those are pricey...but I hear they're very nice.
The BBO kit.
Kinda funny..sold one of my Hoyt Vipers all set up with a release, arrows and B-heads basically even up for the cost of the kit.
Going to start working on the new jig in the next couple days.
this baby isn't going to flex.
just get another two by four and glue & screw it to the bottom of your form.... or get two more and "I-beam" it if you really want to go overboard.
How would you do that VB?.
...very carefully seems a likely an answer...lol
John, buy a 1 inch thick by 6 feet long, by 6 inch wide Oak board. Then buy two, one inch by 6 feet long pieces of angle "iron", not aluminum. Mount the angle iron along the long sides of the oak board, bolt it every 12 inches with 1/4 inch bolts and place washers and lock washers on the wood side, do not use screws. It will never flex on you.
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/IMG_7438.jpg) (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/ROY-CHRIS/media/IMG_7438.jpg.html)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MGXmqFxUjHU
John you said "ONE of my Hoyt vipers"...... do you mean to tell me you got a compound you ain't sold yet?! I listed my less than one year old $1000 compound less than two months after I picked up my first stick bow. luckily i got 800 for it so i didn't take a huge huge loss. had to do it to really get my foot in the door making wood arrows and all the other expenses that come with this hobby of ours. Im all for ya selling your wheelie bows! just hate to think about you over there breakin boards with no stickbow to shoot! :laughing:
....yes... :rolleyes: ....1 other viper and a really old darton...1989 model I think.
My first wheel bow was an early 80's Darton 45K. I didn't shoot it for years, just hung onto it for sentimental reasons. Last year I took it apart, made a couple of brackets for the limb pockets and bolted Sage recurve limbs to the old Darton riser cuz it is 17", same as a Sage. It's a snappy shooter. Of course it's literally gathering dust again since I've been making bows, but I'm sure I'll be shooting it again sometime. Sorry to get off topic; I have nothing but good memories when it comes to Darton bows :-)
Sorry to see this happen to you. From looking at your pictures you have posted before tillering. And I may be totally wrong but I don't think I see what you see. I have broke a few hickory and or bamboo backed Ipe during tillering. First If you look at the picture of your tip on I think page 14 you will see severe grain run out if that follows down the length of your limb and with the fact that you commented that you had reduced thickness to 5/16" and the white veins that are visible plus the limb weakness stated at the start of tillering. I think you had wind checks filled with sap or resin from the tree trying to heal it self during its life cycle. The last picture you show certainly looks like Ipe to me, if the wood smelled like a chocolate licorice coffee sorta smell while sanding it was Ipe. Basically I think it was delamming (checking) along the grain runout. Either way it spells doom for the bow slat. I would bend it backwards to see how it breaks inspect what the grain does. I have a lot of experience with wood but I have only been making bows since Christmas 2012. I don't know much about bows so read this with a grain of salt. :dunno:
Luck
Joe