Trad Gang

Well started making my first cuts on my 1st bow today.

Here's the red oak I picked up yesterday..
       (http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/Board%20Bow%201st/LONGGRAIN640.jpg)
       (http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/Board%20Bow%201st/ENDGRAIN640.jpg)

Laid out some lines tonight...

Going to try 68" long, 2" wide, 8" handle, straight taper from ends of handle to 1/4" tips. ( wanted wider tips..see below)

         (http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/Board%20Bow%201st/SANY0190.jpg)

Cut it to 68"

Ripped it to 2" width...
         (http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/Board%20Bow%201st/SANY0191.jpg)

Then ran the piece I cut off the end when cutting the board to length through the saw to get it to the right width.
I plan on using that piece cut at 8" and glued on for the grip/riser.
         (http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/Board%20Bow%201st/SANY0193.jpg)

Then started sanding the tapers...
         (http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/Board%20Bow%201st/SANY0194.jpg)

After quite a long time of sanding I decided to try using the table saw to cut some of the excess wood off the tapers.

YIKES!!!          :scared:         Found out I'm just not familiar enough with the table saw for that. Scary as heck.. I accidentally cut what I thought was too deep on the bottom side of the cut. I was sweating.

Laid the bow outline out on the belly side of the bow and found I was just, I mean JUST barely OK....whew..
Just to be safe I decided to narrow my points down a bit to just over 1/4". Lets me miss my mistake rather than be right on it.

So I went back to sanding and the belt blew after a while.
..oh how sweet it would be to have a band saw....lol

Oh well, tomorrow I'll pick up a couple new belts.

Won't be physically working on the bow tomorrow as after work, oldest Daughter's 1st soccer practice, and Son's cub scouts, then I'll be putting brakes on my Wife's van.
...but I'm sure the bow will be on my mind.

Should be able to get some work done tues though.
Thanks to all for the help so far.

What did I learn tonight?
        :nono:          Don't use a table saw to taper your limbs unless you are 110% certain you know what you're doing.

I do have a couple questions though..for now..lol

After I get the limbs tapered, the grip and backing glued on..

Do I need to round the edges a bit?..or just leave them square?
Also, should I thin the belly at all before tillering or just start out with parallel back and belly?

Thank you!
  :thumbsup:

With hand tools it can take us a little while to really screw things up.
Power tools enable us to ruin wood at a remarkable speed.
Round all the edges. Square edges give an area for splinters to lift.
You'll have to thin the belly before tillering. Look up "floor tiller" and do that.

Guy

QuoteOriginally posted by Grey Taylor:
....Power tools enable us to ruin wood at a remarkable speed.
....

Guy

That is the scary truth!

Thank you!

Any chance you have (or can borrow) a jig saw?
They are not so dear to buy as a band saw, and with a good new blade can make a very smooth cut. You could leave a little bit of excess, and sand to your line if you are nervous about it. They won't bind and be so dangerous as a table saw.

Look forward to seeing more, thanks for posting your project.

I do have a jig saw.
I was just terribly worried about tear out.
At this point I feel comfortable using electricity for a sander and lights and that's about it..lol

what i did a little bit... and i didn't talk about it in my build along... cause i didn't want to get scolded   :dunno:    :rolleyes:  .... but i ran the belly of my limbs down the belt sander a few times to get them bending. here is how i did it... and there is probably a better way. i turned the belt sander vertical so i was using the end to sand with.... then starting a couple  inches from the tips (not the same exact spot on every pass...so as not tro create a dip) i would apply moderate pressure and sand down the limb at a rate of maybe 8"/second... some passes would be 2/3 of the way down the limb... some would be 1/2... some would only be outer third.  i would count the passes and do the same thing on both limbs. for example... i would to a 2/3 pass, a 1/2 pass, and a 1/3 pass... 5 times on each limb... then check floor tiller. I only did this until i got a couple inches of bend... and i never went near the fades.

by the way the above method will create divots in the belly surface... if you hold it to the right light you can see all the dips. I used a palm sander with 80 grit and ran over the limbs just until i was back to a smooth flat surface. from there it was all scraping.... and very slow.

I was thinking of a similar process myself...

You could use a draw knife or even a hatchet to cut your tapers almost to the line and finish up on your belt sander.

I have a 36 grit belt on my belt sander and can remove wood really fast.

I wish I could find a belt that rough.
I've looked at local places, HD, Lowes, Menards...oh well.

At Klingspor you can get 24 and 36 grit.
http://www.klingspor.com/

Thank you Oddbjorn.

My buddy came through for me this morn and brought me a 50 grit.

Between that and my surform I think I'll be set.
  :thumbsup:

Just got my silk backing in the mail..
I'll be working on dyeing it soon..

(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/silk.jpg)

Z.. if you havent done it yet look at Forest trekkers build along on this board bow, and look at the part where you scribe a line along the edge for thickness, I believe he quoted 15/32 to start and then he scraped from there.

that would be after you taper your limbs.Its too bad your so far away, as it were I have been blessed with two band saws and can only use one.
Good luck Mike

Thank you Mike.

John

haha Mike Most i bet your inbox just got flooded!
 :laughing:

no doubt..lol

Just found out a planer sander with the hood off is pretty bad donkey when working just one of the drums...lol

Got her taper sanded as far as I dare go with power.
Sorta tilted the board on all sides and got pretty close to the line.
Now I just need to basically sand down the crown + a touch more.

Then the belly taper.

Did a little stain test on my silk.
Glued it to an old 2x4 just to see how it goes with some TB3.
Seemed to work pretty well.
Happy to see what the unstained portion looked like too.
Don't know if I'll be using these colors exactly..this is a test..only a test...lol
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/SANY0198.jpg)

Z, that is a real good looking board. Take it real slow and you can make a great bow out of it. As mentioned above read 4est trekkers pyramid bow build. It is full of great info for a bow like this one. if I remember right his bow was wider than 2" so ou thickness wont be the same. Yours will be a little thicker. Ask lots of questions and post comments along the way.

I picked up some 36 grit ceramics at shopsmith,pretty good for using the end of the belt

Got a little more done last night.
Got the limbs planed/sanded to the right taper.
Glued the tips on.
Glued the riser block on.
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/Board%20Bow%201st/SANY0201.jpg)
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/Board%20Bow%201st/SANY0206.jpg)
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/Board%20Bow%201st/SANY0207.jpg)
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/Board%20Bow%201st/SANY0211.jpg)
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/Board%20Bow%201st/SANY0212.jpg)

Also, I played around with staining some silk for the backing.
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/Board%20Bow%201st/Silkstain1.jpg)

Not sure if I like it or not......sure isn't as nice as I was hoping...still undecided. Might have to lay it on the bow and kinda wrap it around to see how it looks when it's in the shape of the bow.

doesn't look as bad like this...
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/Board%20Bow%201st/Silkstain1taper.jpg)

Did a little more work tonight.

Marked my line at 1/2" thick limbs using a jig similar to 4est trekker's.
Just looking now...that picture is weird. The jig isn't cut at an angle at all. Just a square cut piece glued to another square cut piece..weird.
  (http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/Board%20Bow%201st/SANY0216.jpg)

Then used the top of a planer sander drum to work the riser down to the right depth and semi rough sand the belly down.

Next will be hand planing/sanding the belly nice and flat using calipers to check my depth.

My board is actually starting to look like a bow...
  (http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/Board%20Bow%201st/SANY0219.jpg)
  (http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/Board%20Bow%201st/SANY0221.jpg)
  (http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/Board%20Bow%201st/SANY0218.jpg)

trued up the belly last night.
Tried floor tillering.
Both limbs were bending throughout a bit.
Seemed pretty stiff though..

Made a gizmo today.

Tonight I'm hoping to build a little tillering tree/post, round the edges, cut some small string grooves, and try a long string...see how it goes..might not have time for all that...

If all goes well and it looks like I'm somewhat close to an even starting point on the tiller I might glue the silk on.

Kinda tempting to wait a while on the backing just so I don't rough it up while scraping..I dunno.

Also, I'll need to check on a tip that wanted to go sideways last night. Have that clamped since last night. Might have to heat it or steam it I guess..never done that.

Worried about heating the glued on tip overlay too much.
Think I read somewhere that TB3 lets go at 150˚..that's not very hot...

Looking good.

Dont get carried away trying to bend it a lot without rounding over the edges, you will lift something you wish you hadnt.  I wonder how I knew that......

Thanks Roy and Mike.

I took your advice and rounded off the edges a bit Mike.

Not too bad right off the bat.
Right limb needs thinning to get it bending as far as the left.
Also, looking at the pics, I think the bow may have been slightly crooked on the stand.

The fades seemed to bend first and the farther I pulled the more the mid limb and tips started to bend in comparison.
I think I'll need to get those limbs sorta tapered toward the tips more to get the whole limb working more.

Looks like both limbs will need significant reduction to get to my target of 45#@28"

Hard to see in the pic but it was about 29# there with a string that was just long enough to hang about 2" in the middle.

Stinks I didn't have enough room to get the right tip from extending to the door frame.
Might end up putting the tiller station between the studs....

Thanks for the help so far gents!

Please don't judge the electrical too harshly...just one more "project" that came with the house. It's just workroom outlets.
I do need to secure the lines though.

  (http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/Board%20Bow%201st/Tiller2.jpg)

I know you have heard this before but get the short string on as soon as possible. I remember doing a lot of work on the inner thirds and middle thirds but not as much on the outer thirds in relation to the other two. Lots of scraping and exercising the limbs between scraping. Use the "GIZMO"

Looking Good

Thanks Mike.

Sounds like good advice.

Cut in your string grooves now, and use a regular  bow string, but a longer regular string so that when you string the bow, the string lays tight against the belly of the bow. After the limb tips are bending to 4 inches and all looks good, go to a shorter string and string the bow to a 3 inch brace height and continue tillering. After the limb tips are bending to 9 inches and all looks good, string that bow to a 6 inch brace and finish tillering it out.

looking good mate

Hey z.. any more pictures??

Sorry Mike.
I don't have any just yet.

I've done some tillering work and it's coming along slowly.
Just haven't had a lot of time to work on it lately..15 mins here and there..
She's getting a bit of string follow now.
I haven't measured it, but I'd say the tips are about 1" off the table.

Speaking of the tips..they look pretty awful.
I messed up..Measured from the tip to make one groove..measured from the base of the overlay on the other..    :knothead:  

Had to even them up after and they just look like hell.
I might endup cutting the tips off and putting some new grooves in..we'll see.

I'm waiting on a real string at the moment.

Right now I'm considering gluing the silk backing on while I'm waiting.
Not sure if I want to back or not.  

I'm contemplating resting the tips only on the belly side on a couple blocks. Then C-clamping a weight to the belly side of the riser to straighten her out..maybe a slight bit of reflex.

Then gluing the silk on while it's being held like that.

Sound like an ok thing to do..or a recipe for disaster?

Forget about anything but tillering.  Your board is fine without backing.  Tips can be finished later.  Get it tillered before worrying about aesthetics, tip overlays, correcting string follow, etc.  You won't get the follow out so just get her shooting.

I really don't expect to get the follow out.
Just thought doing it that way I MIGHT  get just a touch amount out.

...but it is very tempting to have no backing at all..

Don't think your going to get away from the string follow, just go with it.

When you do string grooves the next time, forget about measuring.
Just mark the first groove on each limb.
File that out. Then put the file in the groove and hold it out so it's on the opposite side, eye ball and mark the other side using the file for the imaginary line.

I'm sorry Macbow..
I'm not understanding.

I think I get what what you're saying now..

I was thinking of filing the top groove only..
Then bracing the bow.
Trace the string for the innermost postion of the side of the groove.
Then pull her back on the tree to full draw.
Trace the string on the outermost side.
Then relieve the are between the marks for free string travel..
  :dunno:

Just got back inside .
I'd be,afraid to try that top groove only .
You will get used to the angle as you do more of them.
I just mark a little less than 45 degree angle line no one side.
Cut it in.
Where I use a file in the groove to help visualize the other side another way is to use a square to mark the top and bottom of the other side then connect the dots.

I don't worry about the groove in the top of the limb till I've added overlays when the tillering is done. The side grooves do all the work.

then I definitely need to change my grooves.
most force is on the overlay...

I'll try to get some pics up soon....well later tonight..
I'm pretty ashamed of the grooves right now..kinda hate to take a pic of em..
I'll have from about 8:30pm to 9:45 to get a little done today.
    :thumbsup:

Here's some pics of my ugly tips..
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/Board%20Bow%201st/tipside.jpg)
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/Board%20Bow%201st/tiptop.jpg)

Amount of string follow...
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/Board%20Bow%201st/stringfollow.jpg)

Braced..
Looks weird in this pic..bad angle..
 (http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/Board%20Bow%201st/braced.jpg)

At 24"... Doesn't look like it in the pic, but when I put my level across the tips are right in line with each other..

She's pulling 44# at 24-25".
Need to keep tillering then adjust the draw weight.
Shooting for 45# 28"
 (http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/Board%20Bow%201st/24inches.jpg)

gotta get it bending closer to the riser on the right.
and more bending in the middle and tip of the left

not much farther to go.
dont pull past your intended draw weight
tiller to 45@27 and by the time ya do  the finish work youll be real close to 45@ 28
your real close to having a shooter
by the way your string grooves dont look that bad
ive gotten in a jacked up hurry and done much worse
kevin

I would imagine sir, you have been learning quite a bit about tiller 101.... looking good.

I appreciate the encouragement guys.

Sure am Mike....Thanks to all the helpful people on this site.

I'm really looking forward to trying out my REAL scraper that should be in my mailbox soon.
I've been using one I made..it works..but the steel isn't the best.

I do have a question..

What's more important..
Having my tips be in a straight line when drawn or having equal amount of bend in them?

I'd like to get the left limb bending more evenly. I have a slight hinge in that limb at about 1/3 in from the tips.

I'm worried that once I get an even bend that side will be weaker and pull back farther, as they are about dead even now.

I'm thinking of getting the limb bending correctly as priority one.
Then evenly sand/scrape the strong limb till they match up distance wise.

Is that how it's done for the final tillering?
Worried I might go a bit under weight..but we'll see...

Thanks

John

Often the top limb is left a little weaker so that when braced the string is 1/8" farther from the riser at the top of the riser than at the bottom of the riser.

Also, it's important that each limb bends evenly along its length.

Having both limbs bending evenly along their length, and heaving the limbs matched in stiffness will make sure every bit of the bow is doing its share of the work. This makes the bow most durable.

makes sense.

Thank you.

are you using a tillering gizmo?

Yeppers.

What a wonderful little device!

Right limb is gorgeous.  Match the left to it and you are good to go.  I'd say 10 scrapes at a time in the middle until they match and then go for weight.

yeah Zradix that thing makes it easy! and it shows that you are using it. looks real good to me and you already know where touchups are needed.

Thanks guys.

Looks like I might have time to scrape a bit tonight.
Looks like the kids soccer practice will be canceled as it's raining cats and dogs over here.

Have to admit..I'm kinda dreading shaping the grip.
I have ZERO wood working skill....or useable tools really.
I think I'll have LOTS of time sanding this thing with sandpaper wrapped around tubes, blocks..whatever looks about the right shape..lol

I know it'll break the hearts of some purists..but I do plan on cutting a shelf on this one.

Going to have a weird looking grip too.

I shoot with a very straight wrist.
My thought is since my pressure point is basically just under the shelf, I'll put the center of the bow right between my grip and the top of the shelf.

Thinking this should make for a well balance bow....   :dunno:

Something along these VERY rough "ciphering" pics...
I really don't think I'm going to do the shelf quite so deep....that pic looks scary as hell don't it?..lol
Just something to rest an arrow on...but also I'd like to get my hand in the center of the bow...still thinking on this one...

  (http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/Board%20Bow%201st/risersidecutout125-1.jpg)
  (http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/Board%20Bow%201st/riserbellycutout1.jpg)

I'd recommend keeping the handle simple on the first one.

How long is the riser? I find I need close to 8" long riser to get a deep shelf and enough space for a full grip.

I always put the most inset portion of the grip at the bow's center and the shelf 1" above center ... roughly.

I'd also recommend not cutting teh handle until tillering is done. That way you can make whichever limb comes out slightly weaker the top limb. just my .02c

I'm putting of any riser shaping till the tillering is done for certain...just planing ahead a bit.

The flat portion on the riser is only 5.25".
I started with an 8" block that I glued on.
So my space is pretty limited.
I chose a short block with thoughts that more working limb would be a plus.

I might put the center right on the grip too..just not sure yet Ben.

Thanks for the advice.   :thumbsup:

looking at your tiller picture got me thinking... hopin roy will answer this one... when i was tillering i kept my handle centered on the tree, and i pulled the string from dead center. i know we hold the bow and string from other places than center... is the 1/8" or so of "positive tiller" there to account for that? would it be prudent to pull the string from above center... maybe even base where you pull the string from (on the tillering tree) on how its going to be shot (3 under vs split... or shelf/rest on center vs above center?

I had the same thought Eric.
I have my riser slightly off center in the tree so the string hook lines up where I'm "planning" to be pulling the string from. Seeing the riser is flat right now it sits on the platform just fine.

Along those lines.. The reason for the wide string hook was to try and simulate the width of my 3 fingers ( I shoot split ) rather than just having a thin hook on the string.

I would do a really simple rounded handle on this one.  I have seen a lot of broken first bows due to aggressive removal of wood in the handle.

Thank you for the warning John.
I plan on cutting up some 2x4's to the shape of the riser..fades and all..and having a practice run..or two..or 3..lol

I made a mock up riser just now for a practice piece.
Very very close to actual size ( give or take a 16th)

This is just very rough and I would round all the corners including the shelf/strike plate junction...didn't have my rat tail with me.

Little worried about where the top of the sight window comes close to the fades.

Does this look strong enough to hold up?

Thanks!

(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/Board%20Bow%201st/DSC09412.jpg)
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/Board%20Bow%201st/DSC09411.jpg)
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/Board%20Bow%201st/DSC09410.jpg)

accidental double post..

Or must it be done in a manner similar to the pic below.
Where the sight window is cut in below the fades entirely?

(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/Board%20Bow%201st/riser2-1.jpg)

John S. has some pretty good advise, I shoot mine off the knuckle, after 50 shots or so it always draws a little blood one day the scar tissue will toughen up.  Yeah right mikie.... but a nice round handle with a piece of leather for a shelf works wonders.

Boy I don't know..
That kind of grip just doesn't appeal to me..

I hear what you're saying..just not too sure I'd be happy shooting that way.

Glad I have a few days to think about it.

Make a simple handle by faceting the corners and rounding them off and shoot the bow a few hundred times like that.  If you don't like it, and the bow survives, post actual dimensions of the handle and we'll help you get closer to what you want.  

Get the thing shooting first.  I wouldn't worry about the handle until you have 200+ arrows through it.  I leave handles pretty rough until I get the bow broken in with a few hundred shots.

zradix I felt the same way but Roy talked me in to no shelf. and im good with it. don't knock it til you've tried it. mine shoots great, and that little piece of leather... its a shelf dude... and if you're handle is skinny like 3/4" or 7/8", its no different than the distance from center that you show on your 2x4.

 (http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/s608/echatham/IMG_20130329_115608_632_zpseb20e7d8.jpg) (http://s1308.photobucket.com/user/echatham/media/IMG_20130329_115608_632_zpseb20e7d8.jpg.html)

 (http://i1308.photobucket.com/albums/s608/echatham/IMG_20130329_115621_674_zps68e69187.jpg) (http://s1308.photobucket.com/user/echatham/media/IMG_20130329_115621_674_zps68e69187.jpg.html)

give it a try... you might like it... and if you don't.... well..... you are going to build more bows anyway..... right?

I'll think about it guys.
And yeah...I'll be making more...lol

Personally, I had no want to put leather on this bow.
I like the looks and all...Your bow look VERY classy Eric, no doubt about it.....I just didn't want to do it.

I also started out cutting in arrow rests. Now I prefer to glue on leather, antler, or a small carve piece of wood to create the rest.

Well it's your bow and you can make it however you want. But take a look at how small your sight window is above your arrow rest. Do you really think you could shoot/aim well with a small window like that?

You are making a simple wooden bow, while trying to incorporate high tech glass recurve technology into it. I wouldn't do it like that, however it's your bow. And if you decide to go that route, we will help you all we can.

Simple clean lines rock:)

 (http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/4c987846-9031-4718-944e-8da4ebb7bb41.jpg) (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/ROY-CHRIS/media/4c987846-9031-4718-944e-8da4ebb7bb41.jpg.html)

 (http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/IMG_7426.jpg) (http://s47.photobucket.com/user/ROY-CHRIS/media/IMG_7426.jpg.html)

Roy I have seen that post before!..... and i'm beginning to think you only got one bow! lets see some of your other work some time!   :campfire:

I've only ever made one bow.

Attained perfection on the first try eh?
Takes the fun right out of making the next one I guess...

It was a joke, John:)

pics or it didnt happen   :laughing:

It didn't happen.

I know Roy..
That's why I was being a smart   :deadhorse:
 
..lol


I'm going to be thinking on what to do on the riser.
Can't work on the bow tonight..ggrr

Last night I was shaving some wood.
Must've shaved some really strong part of the board on my left limb cause it suddenly started bending WAY more.

So now the limbs are not even.

Both limbs have a very nice arc.just a different arc..lol
At brace with the back on a table the left tip is about 1/2" higher off the table than the right. (left limb bending more)

At 26" on the tree the left limb pulls down only about 1/4"(bending more) than the right.

So I have to VERY slowly shave down the right limb to weaken it up.

Gotta go slow or I'm going to have a 30# bow.

Course i could always chop of the tips and shorten it a touch.
See just how good of a job I did picking a board..lol

Well I finished tillering tonight.
She ended up a little too light which is upsetting.
She's 43# at 28"
I was going for 45#@28" when it was shot in..oh well.


Here she is at brace
 (http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/Board%20Bow%201st/FinalBrace.jpg)

Here's full draw..
 (http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/Board%20Bow%201st/Finalfulldraw.jpg)

And here is an image with a "ghost" of the left limb on top of the right limb
 (http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/Board%20Bow%201st/Finalfulldrawghostlimb1.jpg)

Well...
I made a decision.
After MANY layouts trying to figure out how to do the grip the more trad way I just couldn't see the advantage on my short riser. ( other than pure looks)

So I roughed this out...
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/Board%20Bow%201st/gripbelly.jpg)

(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/Board%20Bow%201st/Gripback.jpg)

(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/Board%20Bow%201st/Gripshelfside.jpg)

Shot it tonight about 30 times.

Actually shoots pretty nice!
My arrows aren't even close to the right spine, but the bow feels good.

The grip, as simple as it is, fits my hand well and is really quite comfortable.

Not much handshock either.
Seeing my other bow is a whip and I'm used to that I feel that's saying something.

I might cut it a tad deeper to get slightly closer to center.
I can see the target fine, but it would be nice to have it a little closer to center cut.

All in all I'm pretty happy right now.

Thank you for all the help Gentlemen.
I really would have felt very lost without you.
With you all sharing your knowledge with me really gave me the confidence to "just do it".
Otherwise I would have really been feeling like I was crawling through some pitch black cave and not even knowing which direction to go.

Maybe someday I'll have enough experience to help out someone as you did me.

Really... A true !!THANK YOU!! goes out to you.
   :notworthy:

Just shot it some more...lol

In the past ..and while making this bow.. I have NEVER liked the thought of a pyramid style bow.

All while making this bow I was feeling kinda like I was really just practicing on a sorta dud type design. Something that in the end I "knew" I wasn't really going to like or be impressed with.

After shooting one for the first time they have REALLY surprised me. They're actually pretty cool.

Thinking I should make up a spare ( or 2 or 3 ), sell my whip, and use that towards more bow material.

...... this is way too much fun!

uh-oh
you got it bad.
next thing ya know you will be buying a band saw
and drivin down the road lookin at every tree saying to yor self .i wonder how many bows i could get out of that

ive still got that ash stave
your more than welcome too it
i could even drop it off on sat after i leave work
Kevin

oh man Kevin...
..Quit temping me man..lol

Really though.. Thank you.
Not sure if I'm ready for a stave just yet buddy.

You're right about the band saw though.
...I was looking at them online again last night about 2am...lol

:clapper:    :clapper:    :archer2:

Cool!

looks good man... and yah i think you have it about as bad as i do! them bandsaws ain't cheap!  and my bandsaw fund keeps getting depleted by other stuff... i will get there though.  I do have one question.... i see that your string to limb tip angle at full draw is a little bit greater than 90 degrees... I don't know that that is bad.... but it seems like i read something about that at some point... I am also kind of curious how it is that way given your bow length and draw length. anyone care to comment?

Thanks guys.

I probably took too much off the tips while tillering.

I cut the board to 68"
I cut the grooves 1" in from the tips.
So right now she is 66" ntn.

I think from what I've read and from the pics this is about about as short as you dare go for 28"

I do know that over 90˚means ever increasing stacking.

Kinda scared to shorten the bow slightly to up the draw weight....I'd like to...just leary of doing it...

I don't know if 66" is "as short as you dare go for 28"... maybe for an unbacked oak board bow it probably is... but seams like it should be plenty as far as geometry goes. maybe you just have to start flipping the tips or putting some reflex in em if you go shorter than that. need to read my TBB again.... got my first Osage stave on the way! well the checks in the mail... stave will be on the way as soon as my wood guy gets my message!

Awesome Eric!

I'm seriously contemplating shortening the tips tonight....
Just maybe 1/2" each tip.
I think that should give me around 5# right?
Seems like I've heard 5#/inch...but maybe that meant 1" each side..?

What do you experienced guys think?

Will I be asking for a blow up by doing so?
Would I pretty much HAVE to back it to expect it to last?

Thanks

Very nice, John. ^5

Thank you Roy.

I'd leave it alone. just build another one! make it longer and heavier. try a backed bow... I already pointed you towards a supplier. i just wouldn't shorten it any more based on the string angle you already have.... but thats just me... and i don't claim to be an expert or anything

Yeah..man..

I LOVE pushing the envelope..I get a real charge out of it.
..but the more I look at it the more foolish it seems to cut the thing.

I'm pretty sure a backed bow will be next Brian...BBO, BBI, or possibly BBY..yew just tugs at my mind...

I think I'm figuring this bow building thing out though..at least one aspect...

It's very addicting. I'm not sure how I'm going to cope after this one is done. My wallet doesn't really allow $50-100 every few weeks for new material.
...So...I need to work slow while I'm saving...lol

i hear ya... not to mention you got to get new arrows for every bow you build... at least up to a point i imagine... im sure before long i will have arrows of every spine laying around at this rate!

lol..
..I'm seriously thinking about home depot bamboo..lol

Especially with a bamboo backed bow...

Your in deep sir.....enjoy the ride.....there wont be a tree safe in the neighborhood.

Well done Zradix,  :clapper:  

With your first bow completed you now have a real reference dimension to work with. I would not cut your rest any deeper. Sight with your arrow not your bow.(jmo) A pyramid bow has all the basic qualities of any other bow style it's just easier. LOL  
My first bow attempt was a bamboo backed ipe it broke at the arrow rest. It was 51# at 24" at 26" I heard a tick, stepped back to check the arc when it snapped and one limb hit the ceiling. Before that I never thought about the energy stored in the bow. Now I think about it and I have a deeper respect and insight into our ancesters abilities.


Joe

Thanks Scars..I think..lol   ;)  
I just got upstairs from taking the window in a bit more..then I read your post..HAHA

Well I'm about to string it and try it out...wish me luck..
  :pray:

Just put 110 arrows through it.
Found an shaft/tip combo that shot sorta ok out of it.

BUT..
After careful inspection, I have a bunch of tiny, tiny little cracks on the belly of the bow running across the grain.
Have to get it in just the right light to see.
Almost look like weather checks in old tires..just very very tiny.

Is this something to worry about safety wise?

I've heard of fretting..but the pics I've seen of that look MUCH worse than what I have going on.

I don't know..almost looks like a fast dried piece of wood..

Shoot 30 more check and monitor area, use superglue in area if it looks like they are growing. If you have more of that silk use it,,, but don't use the silk until you can see it is fretting other wise you won't be able to see what is happening.

Thank you scars.

These little cracks are all over the middle 1/3 of the limb.
I can't feel them..only see them.

I'll try to get a pic of them tomorrow as I don't have my camera with me.

This is not my bow.
My cracks are similar in arrangement as the bow in this pic.
My cracks are much smaller and I have about 1/3 as many.
 (http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/chyrsals.jpg)

Well you have 5 key points on your Blog, I just reread the last couple of pages:

1- A successful first bow
2- 150+ shots successful
3- 41# 66" N2N red oak bow
4- A deep arrow rest
5- Bowyers Roy, Mike and Johns good job congrats

All in all I think you should just enjoy the use of your bow, take what you have learned and use it on your next bow.

Sorry I just seen your example picture. I can't tell if you have backed your bow yet. If you haven't then just toast the belly of your bow. Should help with the compression

Sorry to say but frets or chrysals like that are compression failures and, unless you reduce the weight of the bow, will likely be fatal.  In the end, the bow will probably hinge there.  

Has the tiller changed?  Can you show a braced photo?

Thanks for the replies guys.

I haven't been able to get to it today.

I haven't backed it at all.

I'll recheck the tiller asap.

I did notice more handshock as I shot it some more.
Leads me to believe the tiller did change.

Let me run this by you guys..please..

This bow is 66" ntn.
It's 1 7/8" at the fades with a straight taper.
The riser block is 8 1/2"

Is my design flaw basically the width?
Should've done it 3" probably?

I know those limbs have some serious bend to them so the length is pushing it..but I didn't want a bow ANY longer.

Thanks

Hard to say... I'd think it would have been fine.  You're DW was 41#?  My unbacked oak board bow is 66" (64 1/2" NTN) and 38# and the limbs were 1 5/8" after the final sanding.  I kept that width for 8" before I tapered it to 1/2" though.  My draw is about 28".  The limbs have taken 2" of set, but o/w so far, so good.  I did rub the limbs down with a big screwdriver after sanding.  Are anymore frets showing up?

Red oak is pretty weak in compression. It can make a bow but for a beginner, your NTN length for a 28" draw is pretty aggressive.  Tillering has to be very precise when you are working close to the design margin.  Beginners do not tiller with precision.  It is the nature of the beast.  Make your next one 72" and stay with 2" width for half the limb.

Making a good bow doesn't generally happen your first or fifth or even tenth time out.  It takes time and practice, especially being mentored remotely on the internet.  I guess it was my twentieth or more bows before I felt even remotely competent.  And I used osage almost exclusively.  I am close to 200 now and I still make plenty of mistakes and mediocre bows.

With all due respect to those who have made good bows out of red oak (and I have made a few), it is not the best candidate for a bow, especially for beginners.  Red oak is not forgiving of mistakes.  If you have even a smallish hinge, even one you can't really recognize quickly, you will compress the belly and it will fail or set badly.  Osage and good hickory don't do that as bad.  You still have set but not frets, particularly with osage.  

I understand that red oak is available and cheap but is that really the standard you want to set for your craft?

pm sent

Sorry it took so long guys..BUSY weekend

Checked the tiller..Didn't seem to change or get hingey..
I rechecked with the gizmo after looking at the pic..lol
The pic looks weird to me..

(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/Board%20Bow%201st/SANY0315.jpg)

Here is a pic of the cracks..very hard to photograph..

(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/Board%20Bow%201st/SANY0316.jpg)
(http://i748.photobucket.com/albums/xx121/Zradix/Board%20Bow%201st/checks.jpg)

thank you for the encouragement and advice John.
This FAILURE just makes me want to try another that much worse..lol I'm not the type to give up because it didn't go easy.

I'm working on a plan for some better wood.
This really was just a "give it a try" thing.
..with hopes of a functioning bow..

@John:  I can't argue with the points you make, it's all sound stuff.  Hickory boards are readily available to me and having just finished my first BBO, I'm completely sold on osage, too.  The reason for my oak bow was that it was a challenge on another forum to try to get beginners to make a bow and it had to be red oak, no exceptions.  I have not idea why.  I wasn't going to get into it because I'd made two hickory pyramid bows and with my meager tillering skills I wanted to stick with hickory.  The challenge thing looked like fun though and I had zero expectations as far as making a good or even mediocre bow, just thought it'd be good tillering practice.  Didn't feel like backing it and I either cut it out narrower by mistake or got too aggressive rounding the limbs.  And it is a pretty mediocre bow, not much zip to it but it has no hand shock and if I feel like flinging arrows in my basement for an hour after work it is light enough to do that without any aches or pains.  Reason I like my bows at 66" is because my basement has a low ceiling and I sit in a chair when I shoot.  Who knows, it may fret, splinter, or fail tomorrow.  That would be a shame because I really like that bow.  But I would make another one just like it.  Except it would be hickory :-)

to me... in my beginners mind... i think it was just to short for that wood and that draw length. the narrow limbs probably didn't help much either. tiller looks pretty good to my beginners eye

The tiller looks good to me too.  Glad you are sticking with it and making another one Zradix.  I had umpteen hours into a bamboo backed walnut (yeah, that was a bad choice) bow that fretted when I was doing the final tillering.  That is a sinking feeling.  It was a good trial run for the BBO I am finishing, though.  I am keeping my fingers crossed on this one.  Pine Hollow sells both hickory and osage boards if you are taking that direction for your next one.

I think the tiller looks pretty good too. Here's a question: Are the frets all along the belly on both limbs or are they localized to one or two areas?

The more spread out they are the better your tiller (i.e. very even tiller). If they're only in one spot, then it's a weak spot and an error in the tiller.

I think this is just the shortcoming of the material. Red-Oak is marginal at best. It will make a bow, but long draw nd short length are not meant for each other. My draw length is 25" and I will make a red oak bow, 62-66". I think you need to be thinking 70-72".

Also I'd find a hickory board for the next one if you wanna go cheap, or even better a bamboo backed osage or ipe blank.

You seem to have the patience and capacity to make a good bow, I think you need materials up to the task.

Thanks guys.

The frets are only in the top limb and start from a couple inches from the fades and go to about 6" from the tips.

I think you're right on with the material choice.
I mean, I know I could've made a decent bow from this piece of wood BUT I tried to force a design upon it that it couldn't take.

The fault is with me..
I'll just have to do some studying to find out which materials I need to make a bow designed the way I want.

Zradix,

You're right, I mean if you go wide enough and long enough anything will make a bow.

But who wants to shoot a 6" wide, 80" long bow made from radiata pine? Not me.

I'venot used osage personally, but 1000's of people cant be wrong. Ipe I have used and is also excellent. there are other hardwoods that are good, but if you don't already have materials, why settle for less. Get the best. Get ipe or osage.

Tenbrook will sell you bamboo and Ipe together, and they're reputed to be of very high quality. Think about it.

I will think about it...heck I HAVE been thinking about it.

I'm also tossing around the idea of bamboo backed yew..

I recommend a few more simple self bows before tackling more complex designs.

Well a scraped her down to 30# last night to see if I could get away from the chrysals.

They weren't there through the retillering.
Shot it about 30 times and they were there again.
Basically in the same spots.
Checked the tiller...looked and "gizmoed" fine.

So I said to heck with it..I finish sanded it..stained it..and just applied my first coat of wipe on poly.
..figured I could use the practice.
 

Don't give up.  My first bow was about 30# too  :)

I still have it.  It's ugly but it's mine.

that sucks. might have just been too narrow maybe?

I believe so.
Just bad design judgement on my part.
...there was a bow in there...I just cut through it..lol

thats a bleedin shame hope you were able to enjoy making it even if it didnt turn out as you wanted good luck with the next project

Oh I did.
Found a new hobby..obsession maybe..
Thanks for the luck!

I hope your endeavors go well also.

can't wait to see your next crack at it!

hahaha!

"Crack" at it

man..that's cruel...

But funny as hell...lol

awww man i didn't even mean it like that! pun not intended!     :laughing:

sure...   :rolleyes:

We're good man..   :thumbsup:

That was mean and nasty. I LMAO:)

definitly kicking a man when he's down but very good pun    :deadhorse:

Nah guys..
He didn't really mean it that way..
I'm just playing

wish i could take credit for it lol... but it really was an unintended pun... i really just want to see the next bow!

me too

glad your enjoying mate looking forward to seeing your next adventure