OK so I figure the worst that can happen is that I waste a bunch of time and wood. Here is my backing, and I know you're probably thinking "That looks a lot like a self bow." Well, it is. I've had this stave mostly roughed out for almost a year, and I figured it would be a good donor. It's 64 TTT and plenty wide.
I'm planning on using Vanillabear's idea of chasing a ring and then thinning it like bamboo before glue up. I guess I should prolly also heat that prop twist out of it lol.
(http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p211/psychmonky/9E079615-FA76-4953-A104-206A7E8505A6-1082-00000078ADA56D94-1.jpg)
Do you guys think I should make it about 1/8" like Hickory? Thinner? Thicker? Any theories, anecdotes, or cautionary tales are much appreciated.
Interesting thread, monkey. Keep it comin'.
Well I got the backing down to about 1/4 inch. If you guys felt a disturbance in the universe just now, it's because I just rasped away 90% of a perfectly good stave. :)
QuoteOriginally posted by psychmonky:
Well I got the backing down to about 1/4 inch. If you guys felt a disturbance in the universe just now, it's because I just rasped away 90% of a perfectly good stave. :)
I'm a glass laminate bow kind of guy and even I know that is just wrong. :eek:
I would think the osage will over power the Ipe and cause frets on the belly...
I'm probably wrong.... I'll be watching this close as it is very interesting.
i hear wnat you are saying Joe, as i know that if your taper is not really good on the ipe- it will fret.
but if you can swing this Scott, its going to be a really cool bow.
interresting to see performance specs, against a HBO and BBO.
especially, as i presume -you are following ipe layout specs, narrow limbs, and light tips
awesome!!
am surprised though, that Joe didnt cuss you- i know that he holds the "gold" very close to his heart :D
I do plan to make it fairly narrow. I've thought about the issue of the osage overpowering the Ipe, and all I can come up with is just to make the osage as thin as possible, like less than 1/8"... :dunno:
Here it is having some of the twist forced out. I'll prolly heat it and let it cool at least one more time. The only reason I'm even bothering is that I want to try and get as uniform a thickness as I can.
(http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p211/psychmonky/38FDF6B1-9250-4EA4-A27E-600C30FF1B00-1082-0000013250BFE7E1.jpg)
Sorry about the size...PB is being idiotic
So here is a question from my amateur brain: the back of this backing has lots of hills and valleys where I chased the ring. should I leave them and have the back of the bow be non uniform and natural? Or should I just sand both sides flat like this?:
(http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p211/psychmonky/osageback_zpsd5e99c72.png)
I realize that it would violate my ring, but I didn't know how much that would matter if it was glued to the Ipe anyway. My main concern about leaving it au natural is putting uneven amounts of stress on the Ipe in the spots where the Osage is thicker or thinner. What do you guys think?
the way i see it, to ensure an even taper on the ipe- is to "tiller" the osage- and make it a parralel by following the back ring by removing wood on the belly.
or just leave that to the real tillering, and take off as your gizmo says. if the tiller is good, and no hinges- maybe the ipe wont fret.
just talking- never done this befor.
great "think along"
could sand both sides flat, and put a rawhide or silk backing, but that would defeat the purpose of the cool osage backing!
Fugi, I decided to make the belly side of this thing match the back, so I thinned it some more and now if there is a hump in the back, there is is a bit of a dish in the belly to match. That way the thickness is pretty uniform.
To insure good wood to wood contact, I still wanted to smooth the waves out as much as possible, rather than just rely on clamp pressure. I decided to see if heating some reflex into it would help iron all the squiggles out.... It helped a little, but I'll just have to see tomorrow when I unclamp it how wavy it still is.
(http://i.imgur.com/081WN.jpg)
Hey! I resized it!!! But I used Imgur instead of PB...
this is getting better and better.
love your idea
You need help Scott. Help, and a giftcard to st. Charles hardwood. Let staves be staves and lumber be lumber. :biglaugh:
Dave if it helps you can just think of it like a really thin self bow that I'm gluing a belly strip to in order to increase the draw weight :)
there we go, thats perfect :bigsmyl:
Well when you put it that way...lol
Well I spent a long time with a scraper trying to decrown the belly side of the osage. I think the glue joint will be a lot stronger, and it will certainly look better, if both surfaces to be glued are flat. A test fit reveals that, as suspected, the roller coaster nature of the osage allows some light to get through:
(http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p211/psychmonky/325C43E2-66CA-4BE6-93B8-880529F7C3F0-6122-0000038ED62AD532.jpg)
But....a bit of clamp pressure gets rid of all that. the gap at the edges still needs a bit of work I think.
(http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p211/psychmonky/A8A24A1B-1EB7-434D-90BA-608FEE101803-6122-0000038ED4B6EA63.jpg)
Nothing that Urac wouldn't fill.
Well, I got the backing thinned about as thin as I can. It's essentially one growth ring now lol. Then I got to thinking about handle wood. I'm thinking that the Ipe would look good sandwiched between an Osage back AND an Osage handle. I have a block that must have come from a limb, because its only about 1 1/2 inches square and the rings are almost completely visible.
Anyway, how should I orient the handle? Should the Ipe be above it in the pic so it's sitting on the "hump" of the rings? Or below it? I'm just trying to get the grain to look the best when I form the fades.
(http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p211/psychmonky/F5F06FDC-E9C2-41D2-BDAE-8C8FF41F2DC4-721-0000005E796A7646.jpg)
thats coming along great, remember to score the two surfaces with a toothing plane- or similar- if you are using Urac- thats what i would be using.
x2 DVS.
not sure about the block orientation, but maybe the other way up, so that it matches the backing.ie: both have their"backs" facing the same way. imho!
Anyway will look fine with the handle block..I've done it every which way....and edge grain would look cool too..up to you
Psych,
Very interesting, I'll be following your progress as well :-)
after all this effort, you had better have a primo piece of ipe!!
dont wanna see you sad!!!
LOL Fugi
I've broken plenty of bows. I've already learned enough about this one to call it a win. I'm actually more worried about the osage than the Ipe. Something about that wafer thin sliver of wood scares me. Then there is the unknown of this weldwood glue. Lots of room for explosions! :dunno:
I haven't done much on the bow today. Kids and wife are sick so I've been playing nurse. It isn't as fun as it sounds lol. Sadly I have to work 3 twelve hr days in a row now, so it may be Monday before I can do any more on it unless I develop insomnia, as I am wont to do when working nights.
I did do a test fit with my handle and that all looks good. Next up is getting that backing perfect for a good glue joint.
:coffee:
Well I was able to work on it a bit today. After clamping it to the Ipe, I marked all the spots where no light was visible between the two pieces. Those are the "high spots" where I need to remove A LITTLE BIT of wood in order to flatten it out and insure a good glue joint. I know that urac would fill these gaps and I COULD just apply a ton of clamp pressure to force them closed, but I'd rather start with a consistently flat piece of wood to eliminate variables.
It should be noted that I'm being picky here. The "gaps" I'm talking about are probably less than 1/32. Most of them are thinner than that, but that's after clamping them pretty tight.
Also to be noted: if I was better at reading wood, all my marks line up pretty well with those pretty little swirls in the grain. I could save a whole lot of time by being better at this. Oh well. That's how we learn I guess.
(http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p211/psychmonky/BC8B3FF5-7C27-4407-8E3A-BD73382FF566-3985-0000026CA14BDBC2.jpg)
So here is a dry run on my new "form." It's just the Ipe because I was mostly checking on weather or not i like the profile and how this system works compared to clamps when it comes to bending in the R/D. Turns out its a lot like clamps lol. My middle "post" is 1 1/8" off the table, and the ones at mid limb are right at 1/2". My end posts are 3".
(http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p211/psychmonky/3056FE06-5EA4-400E-A79E-44BDA4E948A7-965-00000071FAD38699.jpg)
Sorry if I'm rambling. Been awake for 30 hrs. I'm probably lucky I didn't break the dang thing.
Looking real good monkeyman, but take a brake. At this point you can only screw it up and I know i would be disappointed if that happened LOL. keep up the great work and get this thing glued, tomorrow :)
Alright, so I got a little sleep and then proceeded to get her glued and all bolted down. I've used this method in the past with hickory backings and the wooden cross pieces stay nice and flat and level. With this self back (that's what I'm calling it lol) the humps and bumps make the brackets look like keys on a cartoon piano after it gets dropped on someone. :eek:
All I can do is hope and pray that I'm getting good even pressure. Now it's time to let her cure and plan my next move.
(http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p211/psychmonky/840092AC-5918-41DC-BD5E-319533BB722D-965-0000016D9E4D4F0F.jpg)
cant wait!!!!
Me either!
Well you guys are goning to have to wait! Lol. Mostly because there was apparently a mixture issue with the glue. Some how, even though I read the back of the tub, I used a completely different ratio of glue to water than was called for. I thought it seemed thin when I was spreading it, but I'd never used it, so I just figured it was supposed to be that way.
The good news is that I was able to separate the two pieces without damaging either of them and once I clean them up and pull my head from wherever it was, I should be able to glue it right back up with no problems.
Ugh. I really have to learn to slow down and pay attention. I'm in a pretty serious funk about this really. I hate making mistakes that were entirely my fault AND stupid AND preventable. At least it didn't cost me anything but time I guess. :banghead:
Yeah that was the first thing I checked when I got it. This was all just do to using about twice as much water as was called for. Also I may use warm water next time. It says the water can't be below 68 degrees and the water out of the basement faucet is pretty cold.
Hey monky bow (as the old fart calls ya) I had the exact same problem with that glue... Let me know how it turns out when you mix it thicker. I couldn't remove my pieces so you got lucky there... Keep us posted!!!
:( Hate to hear that. Thanks for the update and my fingers are crossed for your next attempt.
Psych, I used a plastic resin glue to build a duck boat a few years ago. It had a different name but I'm pretty sure it was basically the same as weldwood. At first I measured carefully each time I mixed up a batch but it was such a pain to get the ratio exact, so I started mixing by putting some water into a small cup and adding powder as I stirred until it came to the right consistency. I never had a glue failure doing it this way. I do remember though, that it did work better with lukewarm water.
Dave.
:coffee:
I'm trying joe. :)
I had to work 12 hrs Wednesday and Thursday night from 7pm to 7am and didn't get to sleep much when I got home this morning. That makes my already mistake prone brain extra clumsy. Ill wait to reglue it until tomorrow or sun when I'm mentally capable of being careful. :)
Got her reglued and all clamped back down. That glue looks a lot better when you mix it correctly. I guess we will see tomorrow evening weather it stuck this time.
Well, to answer the question, No. It does not look better just because the glue is mixed properly. I'm beginning to think it may just be the glue... I don't know if it was just a bad batch or this particular glue isn't made to handle the stress that an R/D profile puts on the glue joint. All I know is that when I unclamp it I hear what sounds like rice crispies and in a few minutes it looks like this:
(http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p211/psychmonky/7D5B49D1-9558-4097-8D4D-934CA18E723A-1869-00000138F71D77EC.jpg)
Now i KNOW people have used this stuff to make bows. The only two things I can think of are:
1: The glue is just bad. I know it isn't expired, but perhaps that date is just a ballpark, or it was just a bad batch?
2: The "roller coaster" nature of the backing with all the humps and dips is too inconsistent to allow a strong glue joint. It takes quite a bit of clamp pressure to flatten out some of those high spots, so I'm sure they are pulling against the glue pretty hard. You would think that the "low" spots would be glued fairly solidly though...
I'm working on acquiring another piece of osage, and I'm going to build a hot box and get some Smooth On. Lets see if eliminating all of these variables can't produce something I can at least glue a handle to and start tillering.
No, it isn't. The big brown globs you can see are sort of the consistency of a rubber eraser. SOME of the stuff that was squeezed out was hard and brittle almost like really thin glass. That stuff breaks apart when you try to peel it or bend it.
I know it was mixed well, and it should have had plenty of time to cure (36 hrs+.) I even had a space heater next to the bow so the temp was 80+.
I dunno.
Oh no it didn't! :banghead:
I didn't catch the name of the glue... One thing is for sure,,, it aint worth nut'n.
Remember, to much pressure will squeeze out all the glue (starve the joint).
Where ya getting your osage from?
It was weldwood plastic resin glue. I had seen a thread a while back that mentioned it, and a couple of different people had apparently built bows from it.
My new piece of Osage is coming straight from Kennym. THANKS KENNY!!! It should be a lot closer to an actual backing strip. The only thing good about any of this is that my original piece of Ipe is still useable. Ill get it stuck together somehow!
That sucks. I've been there.
If ya want to borrow a hot box I've got one you can use for a couple of months. I live in Dittmer if you'd be interested let me know....
Scott,
The UBM Festival is in,Jeff City beginning of Feb. Mike Horton will,be there and will probably still have some Urac 185.
Keith,
I may take you up on that if I go the Smooth On route. Right now I'm leaning toward unibond, simply because I don't deal with glass so I'm not sure I can justify the cost of smooth on.
Mac,
If its the first weekend in February I will not be able to attend. It's my 10th wedding anniversary and if I spend it at an archery festival it'll prolly be my last....lol.
Thank you all for all the advice and offers for help. I know without all the support from this site, I would have never even tried an experiment like this. Now lets see if I can't get it to actually work with some good Kennym Osage.
Scott, just bring the Bride and stay for the whole weekend.
Decent dinner at the banquet.
Got good friends that celebrate there,every year
NOW we're cookin'!!! A huge thanks to KennyM for this. Its been said before, but the man doesn't mess around.
(http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p211/psychmonky/C263846B-ED87-4026-9CE0-767D30703307-178-0000002E348017AB.jpg)
Now All I have to do is wait for my new glue. In the mean time I can clean up the Ipe from the last glue up and lay out the profile on the backing.
I just picked up some Unibond 800 which is the new Urac 185... cost about $30 for a quart of this stuff with both parts. I will let you know how that works but says it is the same thing as the urac...
Can't wait for it to come in and give it a shot!!
Yeah that's what I got too. The place I got it from also has different colors of hardener, so you could theoretically turn your glue line into a really thin accent stripe if you were so inclined.
Whew! It's been several days since I could work on it, but I finally got my unibond and got her all glued up. Now it's a waiting game. Ill keep y'all posted once I unclamp it and get it all cleaned up!
(http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p211/psychmonky/5C7F8527-A554-47BB-B420-29CEF093800A-3152-000001DEA48B2EEC_zps4f8c9cb7.jpg)
I justed glued up a BBO fixer... what a difference unibond is. Did you find that it is setting up quicker than urac. I just got done and it was deffinatley setting up quicker IMO.
Love this unibond way better that that Weld whatever it is. I don't think I will ever change from Unibond and will actually be ordering a gallon of it.
How do you store the unibond? What is the shelf-life? Any ideas?
It's really similar to urac. Refrigerate after opening. Ill look for the info on the shelf life.
Correction. Can says store in cool dry place. Shelf life is 12 months at 60 degrees, 6 months at 75, and 3 at 90
Alright, so I left it clamped up for three days, because I had to work anyway, so why take chances.
Got all the glue and extra wood cleaned off. She looks pretty, guys. Here is a good pic of the contrast between the Osage and the Ipe.
(http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p211/psychmonky/CE81E566-974A-4074-B896-51E2CA271E81-788-0000007E35E782B7_zps43d1acc5.jpg)
And here is the profile. It has 1/4" of deflex before reflexing 2". I expect it to have more deflex and less reflex by the time I tiller it, so it may turn out almost straight...Hopefully not though.
(http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p211/psychmonky/4C490818-72F7-43CD-B175-A5DC7510AABE-788-0000007E347791E7_zps5ef95f82.jpg)
I've been thinking more and more about weather or not the Osage will overpower the Ipe. I'm actually considering trapping it to alleviate the problem, what do you guys think?
I'd think the ratio is good. When I use bamboo it is just a little thinner on the edges.
It will depend on how much wood is removed in tillering.
Got my handle roughed out. Not super happy with my glue line, particularly on the side closest to bottom in the pic. I guess that's what I get for roughing out the block of Osage with rasp and file rather than just using a board.
My plan is to use this as my swap bow, but I don't like the looks of that line. I'm sure it's structurally sound, it just looks awful. Am I being overly critical, or should I rasp the whole thing off and try for a better fit with another piece?
(http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p211/psychmonky/90215075-3806-41C0-8BD5-D08B2EB471DF-2335-0000015C81372033_zpsfc361772.jpg)
If that glue line is filled I'd go with it.
I know I'd be happy to receive it.
Now we got to see it bending a little...
Had to put tips on it first Joe! Now all I have to do is cut in the string grooves an THEN you will get to see it bend.
Tips are just more Osage and Ipe.
(http://i129.photobucket.com/albums/p211/psychmonky/C0E24B4C-58FB-4B9D-B874-D705CB9B9F31-1665-000001297E8795A3_zps9cbcf15a.jpg)
That is looking good.....
:thumbsup: :coffee: Can't wait to see it bend!
Hey Scott that is looking great... I had the same issue with glue lines on my BBO bow with the Unibond 800... I just think that it expands a little more maybe is all I can think. Don't worry about it if it is solid... keep it going.