Trad Gang

its going to be 66 long..... hickory backed with hickory. First off should I go 1 1/2 wide at the fades or 2"? I was going to run parrellel for about 16" outside the fades before taper.  Performance wise what have you all found to work best? I am going to put 1" deflex into the bow when I back it. would love some advise:) also I was thinking 1/8 on the backing............. what say you all. will post pics tonight! cheers

What weight bow you after? And what's your draw length? A longer bow can be made narrower, plus, being laminated somewhat narrower also. Much depends on bow weight though.....Art

I am shooting for 50lbs at 28. thanks

1 1/2" wide, parallel out 12", then straight taper to 1/2" tips. Thats my favorite recipe anywho. 1/8" is fine on a HBH. Add 4" of relfex when you glue up, that will leave you 2" or so.

What style handle are you considering, bulbous or rigid?

I think for that length and being laminated that 1 1/2" limb width would work at that weight. But carrying the limbs parallel that far out can be looked out. Personally, I think you're getting into the bow length where longer/heavier limbs needs rethinking.

Two schools of thought here. Parallel to mid-limb using an 1 1/2" limb width and keeping the rest of the limb fairly stiff to the tips will help dampen limb vibration. Or, starting an 1 3/4" wide out 10" or so and then straight taper to tips. Here you would flip the tips from mid-limb to help dampen limb vibrations.

Bow length will handle your draw length regardless. But longer limbs are heavier, respond slower and produce more limb vibrations which all rob cast. Just a few things to jaw over......Art

for the rough belly taper how does 5/8 out to 3/8 sound

ok so my final design is as follows. 1 3/8 at the fades out to 12"....... then taper to 1/2" (will narrow later). I am goin to do a ridged riser (hill style). keep the advice coming I really appreciate it. thanks pearl and art!!

Dont listen to me man, I just mumble! Artsy has it going on in the geometery and design dept.

I'm just jawing here Pearly, think it's the meds I'm on :-).

If you go with that belly taper you're going to be whip tillered for sure. I would stay with the 1 1/2" limb width minimum.

Amount of belly taper really depends, first on limb design, and second, amount of reflex IMHO. If you don't want the string to slap the back of your thumb you really need to stiffen limbs from mid-limb to tips. So carry any belly taper to mid-limb and then that measurement on to the tips.

For example: 1" limb reflex, parallel limbs,  5/8" @ fades to 1/2" mid-limbs and on to 1/2" thick tips. Four inches of reflex as Pearly mentioned I would just carry a 1/2" belly taper from fades to tips. Adjust from there once the short string is on.

ok had to think about that........ makes sense to me. I know your gonna say im making a mistake and I might be......... but I already ripper her to 1 3/8:) so I will call it an experiment. Ok thanks so much art I will post pics and keep her going. Cross me fingers;) and if it dont work Ill keep her 1 1/2 next time round!

man.................. I have no idea how in the he*# I made this mistake. When I bought my big jug to refill my titebond bottle I somehow bought titebond original. I glued my bow all up (reflexed) and noticed that it seemed to be setting up faster than normal. So later I checked my glue ORIGINAL!!

So is this firewood...... its not waterproof and the differance in PSI rating is not that differant.

Anybody use te TB original????

THanks

Its fine. Just seal it good when your done with it.

whew!!!!!!! ok pics for the days work coming up..

here is to a days work

here is my board ripped to 1 3/8 with a backing strip ripped as well.
(http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww158/trentcur/Archery/hickorybow1.jpg)

Floor tillered and bending nicely
(http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww158/trentcur/Archery/hickorybow.jpg)

Glued up with some reflex........ to be honest I am a little worried about my glue job. I scraped both surfaces with a drywall knife to rough em up, applied the glue (liberally) and clamped it down. But I see a couple spots that are gapping at the edge. I hope I can just force a little glue in their tomorrow and all with be ok.....
(http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww158/trentcur/Archery/hickorybow2.jpg)

BTW...... i know to leave her 24 hours for the glue to dry and cure. BUt should I leave it clamped longer to keep the reflex???? this is the first bow that I have put any reflex into.......... should i have heated her into form before backing?? I just glued the backing as I clamped her down into the reflexed shape...

thanks for all the help. A rookie does appreciate it:)

Your fine. Let it dry for a day or so. Next time you glue up read the back of the bottle. It will tell you to use clean, smooth surfaces. No toothing.

ohhhhh..... I always left em smooth but I thought I had been doing it wrong? Maybe that was for glue that wasnt wood glue...... anyway..... cheers to a good day:)

OK so this whole refex thing is teaching me a thing or two. My backing strip started to curl at the edge...... I had the backing strip not quite fit to the belly (was going to sand down after glue up). So it curled up a little which in turn started a crack in the backing. Crack runs parellel so it should be fine. I unclamped it and its holding good reflex. I squeezed in a little more glue and clamped this area again.

I think my clamps were a little week for reflex, always worked perfect for straight limb glue ups but this is a lot more muscle to hold still.

So I am going to give her a go tomorrow amyway on the tiller tree for giggles but ill be honest...... I dont have a warm fuzzy feeling on this one!

If it curled on the edge that generally means you put too much pressure in the center, OR your backing strip wasnt flat, it was dished out. Very common with purchased backers.

Ya well it probably could have been either............. well I will give her a go anyway. Glued on some tip overlays. Ill let em dry, cut some knocks and start tillering.

Just curious...... on wood bows do the R/D bows perform better than the straight limb? My straight limb bows all shoot very well. But there has go to be a reason that people go through the trouble:)

A reflexed bow will be faster most often. Is it better? Thats up to the shooter and builder.

Cool well I am gna stick with this design till I get her right........ something to be said for being stubborn   :banghead:

Being stubborn got me where I am as far as bending wood is concerned.

Ok I need some help/advise on this tiller. never done a RD bow.......... so I am ready to string her up I think, it is sitting right at 50# in this photo. I havent been taking her above my target weight during the tiller process.

So I think I need to stay away from the fades now and just work on getting the bend going in the outer half of the limb.

Also it makes some little creaking sounds...... im really worried that the backing is seperating. I dont see anything under inspection........ does hickory do this while settling in? Little worried......

Please give some advise- thank you!
(http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww158/trentcur/tiller.jpg)

We really need an unbraced side and front profile to accurately judge tiller. Any sound is abnormal.

Fades still squared? Shouldn't be at this point.

Rest easy knowing hickory generally doesnt explode. It just gives way kind of.

Looks like the string is still kinda long. Get it to short brace to give a better idea of tiller shape.

well never mind......... I strung it up with the short string and she cracked:( a good splinter lifted off of the backing.

So ya......... I am def licking my wounds tonight. I think I am done with board bows. Every time I have ever tried to build one over 40# I have had the backing lift a splinter. I dont know if its because of my rookie status or the quality of my backing material.

I do have a question though Art.... you mentioned the fades. It is my understanding that the bow does not flex/work under the riser, is this incorrect? SO this being said I tillered leaving the handle totally ridgid and cut/tillered all the way to the riser block. So yes the riser was still square.

I have another unbacked hickory all glued up ready to start tillering but dont know if my heart can take another crack    :banghead:

by the way would you even recommend unbacked hickory board bow? thanks

First thing you need to do Trentcur is to know what you're dealing with before starting a bow out of hickory. Hickory is one wood that decays quickly, and if not properly processed, is useless as bow wood. Otherwise good for many other projects but not bows.

So do a break test on any hickory scraps before using it for bows. Hickory will take a great bend before breaking. Like Pearly stated, good hickory will just kinda fold instead of breaking clean. If on the other hand, a piece of hickory breaks easily move on. Sooooooo, do the break test.

Fade areas are transitional areas, meaning just that. But even the handle bends to a certain degree also. So what I do is shape my fades and handle, and even cut in a shelf if I'm using one, and have all that near finished befor ever putting any kind of string on. Everthing is considered part of the tiller IMHO.

Your likely concaved backer was probably your killer. The only part of that back working was the part stuck to the core. The rest was along for the ride with zero support, POP goes the weasel. Try the exact same thing again. This time study your wood components and flip the backer or core around until the two mate together nicely. When you glue a back on a bow you shift a serious amount of pressure to the seam.

Art........ what your saying makes sense. One thing that I did notice on this wood that had me raise an eyebrow was that during the tiller as I scraped away I uncovered some very rough grain....... looked extremely porus and almust even looked like a natural straight crack in the grain.

Another question. How do you all process your backing? I rip mine on the table saw to 1/8 and then sand smooth on the blade side. I understand however that doing it this way does not make it perfectly flat or even. I have been considering purchasing a planer if this would make the step easier.

Many thanks again to you all.

Trent

Belt sander using 50 grit belts.

Ok I know this answer is probably no....... but here is a pic of the crack/lifted backing. any chance this can be superglued and clamped down??? its on the edge. that being said with the concaved backing and what not it might be better to just send her to the fire pit....... what say you.
(http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww158/trentcur/Archery/crack.jpg)

Try gluing it down and then trap (trapezoidal  shaped) the back real good. Looks like you're still in good shape if you do that.

AWESOME............. gonna go do it right now ill keep you all updated. Thanks for giving the rook some help! :)

Ok so I figured out the problem........... I trapped the back really good and went at it again and kept hearing the ominious very bad little sounds. Finally I just got irritated and pulled it till the sound revealed itself. The tiller looked great but it kept creaking. Sure enought the backing blew out. So I took a look and it appears that the glue joint was not very good from the get go, as said the concaved backer was the killer. BEcause the glue joint failed it put tons of stress on the backing in this area and she gave way.

So the belly wood is fine. So I removed the backing as carefully as possible using a chistle and sander. I am backing with some fiberglass drywall tape. Before backing it pulled 30lbs at 28. So I have the glue drying on the tape. when its done I am going to do one more layer of tape (what you think about doing a second layer???) and then shorten the limbs 2" each side and make it a kids bow.

Will try again for my RD longbow next rotation home:) thanks again for all the help..... better luck next round.

Ok so I got the drywall (fiberglass) tape glued on and the final tillering done. After removing the backing it took some bellywood in a few spots so I really had to do some tillering, making the weight drop quite a bit.

Anyway this bow will be going to a friend of mine for his 11 yr old. It actually shoots very well and I am happy with it.

THe right limb is a little stiff but I am going to leave it as I dont want to drop any more weight. She sits at 28@28....64".

Any observations and constructive critisism is greatly appreciated. Will post finished pics after I finish shooting her in and get her finished. Have about 100arrows through at the moment.
(http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww158/trentcur/Archery/jaydenbow.jpg)

you have to much bend  at the fades. not enough bend through the mid limb area.  you are asking the fade area and the first 10 inches on each limb to do all the work, in your last pic post it looks like the right limb needs some more attention if you look carefully you can also see it in the string angle. you may be able to recover some draw wieght with some carefull scraping and still make your recipient happy. rv

you think both limbs look stiff mid limb? thanks for the help

Ditto what broketooth said!!!  You probly have a lot of set I'm guessing?

As per your question on unbacked hickory board bows . . . that's one of my faves!!  I've made three so far, similar to the design you've done, from 35# to 50+#.  All worked super and no worries on breakage, even with less than ideal grain, pin knots, mystery streaks, . . .   Hickory is TUFF stuff   :thumbsup:

If you're weight is running light, looks like you have enough wood there still to pike her after you get the tiller adjusted.

Glad you're hanging in there after all this one's put you through.  Means you're just another poster child for this here addiction   ;)

Ok............. so I used sand paper and scraped her down mid limb on both limbs working extremely slowly. The limbs were looking much better when I heard her start to creak on the tiller tree.......... I ran away....... nothing....... drew her back 50 times......... nothing......... shot 50 arrows....... shot great........ drew her back one more time and CRACK......... shes done     Broke mid limb. ugh................ a fallen soldier.

Here is a pic of the tiller adjustments that I made. Took this pic right before she broke.

(http://i715.photobucket.com/albums/ww158/trentcur/Archery/blowup.jpg)

So did the left limb break?

No sir......... right limb at the half point. I see what you are talking about........ there is a naggy little threat of a hing on the left limb about 5/8 point. Or I mean there WAS a naggly little theat of a hing..........

oh and before it ceased to exist I did measure........ and it took 1 1/2" of set.

Keep at it. I just glued up my second tonight. My first one cracked too.