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Main Boards => The Bowyer's Bench => Topic started by: PEARL DRUMS on April 20, 2011, 07:40:00 AM

Title: Compression cracks
Post by: PEARL DRUMS on April 20, 2011, 07:40:00 AM
Can compression cracks be fixed with wrapped sinew and glue? Are there any other ways to fix them short of a belly lam?
Title: Re: Compression cracks
Post by: 4est trekker on April 20, 2011, 08:08:00 AM
Replacing or removing the damaged wood from service is really the only way (i.e. partial or belly lam, Torges patch, plug, etc.) Everything else is just a cosmetic disguise for an eventual failure.  Sinew functions in tension, not compression, and wrapping it doesn't address the problem.  I just posted a fix on the Trade Bow thread, but the chrysal was very small and isolated.  The technique I posted is most helpful when dealing with suspect pin knots or small compression fractures (which in this case was caused by suspect/damaged wood.)  PatB has properly suggested the use of belly lams on here before to correct chrysaling and has posted a bend through the handle osage recurve that was successful.  I think Bona (bglass) recently posted a successful one as well, although she did so to increase the draw weight.

Regards
Title: Re: Compression cracks
Post by: PEARL DRUMS on April 20, 2011, 08:31:00 AM
This was my first Argentine Osage experience. I would rather not blame it on the wood, but I have to. The bow was built on the same recipe I always use with American. It was 80% tillered and looking very good when I seen the cracks. very disheartening to say the least. I took two 8 hour days tillering this bow like a baby......The wood had alot of swirls in the grain and I brought that to my suppliers attention right away. He said he would send out a new piece if this one broke. Thats the good news.
Title: Re: Compression cracks
Post by: John Scifres on April 20, 2011, 08:40:00 AM
You can also reduce draw weight and/or draw length and salvage a shooter.  If there was a defect in the belly, it can be removed and patched with a compression similar wood.  If the design wasn't appropriate for the wood, you have to redesign.
Title: Re: Compression cracks
Post by: PEARL DRUMS on April 20, 2011, 08:49:00 AM
I have a bunch of thin American laying around, I may try that . The bow is 66" long, 1 1/4 wide tapering to 1/2" tips half way up with a very thin hickory back, maybe .100" thick, heavily trapped even. I still can belive the belly crushed like it did.
Title: Re: Compression cracks
Post by: Pat B on April 20, 2011, 12:35:00 PM
The repair that 4est mentioned I made was to add Argentine osage belly lams to the belly of an American osage bow. I was very pleased with the results. I think I'd try the American osage belly lam on the Argentine osage bow.  
 I just ground down the belly below the frets and glued the belly lams on in reflex and when the Urac cured I retillered the bow. It went from 45#@26" to 56#@26" when completed(60" static recurve, bend through the handle). I got the belly lams from David Knight. They were scraps he had that happened to be tapered from about 1/8" to 0" in about 20".
 I'll have this bow at the TN Classic next weekend if you want to see it and/or shoot it. It is now my primary bow.
Title: Re: Compression cracks
Post by: Steve Kendrot on April 20, 2011, 02:38:00 PM
I too have a couple bows that have developed frets in the final stages of tillering. I've wondered if anyone has tried to glue layers of Osage shavings (kinda like layering sinew) on the belly to build it back up without having to flatten the whole limb and glue a lam along it's length.
Title: Re: Compression cracks
Post by: Pat B on April 20, 2011, 03:31:00 PM
Wood shavings are all grain violations. Not strong enough for anything other than kindling.
 If you have a belt sander it will only take you 10 minutes or so to flatten the belly.
Title: Re: Compression cracks
Post by: PEARL DRUMS on April 20, 2011, 06:58:00 PM
What about cutting the area out and gluing a new "square" in its place? I was advised to try that out.
Title: Re: Compression cracks
Post by: Pat B on April 20, 2011, 10:45:00 PM
That takes pretty precise cutting and fitting I think. I've never done that.
Title: Re: Compression cracks
Post by: Walt Francis on April 21, 2011, 12:27:00 AM
I have used Torges method a few times with good results on BBO's.  I have sent you a link to his method.
Title: Re: Compression cracks
Post by: Stiks-n-Strings on April 21, 2011, 04:28:00 AM
I just patched a bow with a Torges patch and it worked great.

I had talked to Pat and was considering a belly lam but took out the first patch and tried it again and got it right the second time.
Title: Re: Compression cracks
Post by: Stiks-n-Strings on April 21, 2011, 04:35:00 AM
I just patched a bow with a Torges patch and it worked great.

I had talked to Pat and was considering a belly lam but took out the first patch and tried it again and got it right the second time.
Title: Re: Compression cracks
Post by: PEARL DRUMS on April 21, 2011, 03:11:00 PM
I assume the the Torges patch should be done now before I dink around with the tiller anymore?
Title: Re: Compression cracks
Post by: Stiks-n-Strings on April 22, 2011, 03:59:00 AM
Yeah Pearl. I had to do mine after I had the bow tillered and it took a little set in that area. I drew it on the tillering tree and did not like the way the first one looked so I ground it out and repatched. I'm pretty sure the set happened at that point but it ain't real bad. Turned out to be a fine shooter. If I getg a chance I'll post some pics.

Stiks
Title: Re: Compression cracks
Post by: PEARL DRUMS on April 22, 2011, 07:49:00 AM
I would love to see pics. I checked out Deans tutorial that Walt sent me, he ticks me off. Every video or article I read he makes this stuff look so dam easy! Maybe I could send it to him for repair? The man is good at what he does for certain. The weather is miserable today...............again. So I may just head to the shop and see what happens.
Title: Re: Compression cracks
Post by: PEARL DRUMS on April 22, 2011, 11:23:00 AM
Well I ground the bad spot out and replaced it with 1/4 sawn osage. The fitting took be a good hour, but it fit perfect. I used URAC to hold it down and no clamps per Deans instruction. It looks good, now we shall see if it works! The bow is basically tillered and done, may need a slight tweak after the plug drys. I will keep you posted on my progress.
Title: Re: Compression cracks
Post by: SEMO_HUNTER on April 23, 2011, 06:47:00 AM
How bout some pics? I'm not sure I've ever seen what your referring to? I'd like to see what you all call compression cracks because I have seen some tiny little cracks in my finished products before, but you can only see them when you hit the wood with some kind of stain. Otherwise they are invisible.
Title: Re: Compression cracks
Post by: PEARL DRUMS on April 23, 2011, 07:48:00 AM
Those are from compression Chris, thats what I tried fixing. They will generally worsen over time and more will show up, at least in my experinece. I puled the bow this morning to 25#'s and the hickory back blew. On to another!
Title: Re: Compression cracks
Post by: Stump73 on April 25, 2011, 10:41:00 PM
You might think this is a stupid question, But what does a compression crack or fracture look like? Any pics?  Thanks Mike
Title: Re: Compression cracks
Post by: Pat B on April 26, 2011, 12:18:00 AM
Mike, compression fractures, frets or crysals(all the same) will appear as small cracks across the grain on the belly of wood bows. Generally where the limb bends the most.
Title: Re: Compression cracks
Post by: SEMO_HUNTER on April 26, 2011, 03:34:00 AM
The ones I was talking about don't run across the grain, but lengthwise with the grain. I get those sometimes from adding heat to a bow blank and so far they haven't caused any problems for me. The future may decide different, but I haven't noticed any ill effects from them and they don't seem to be getting any larger the more I shoot the bow.
Like I said before they don't show up till you stain the bow, otherwise you can't even see them. They are like little hair line squiggles all up and down the belly, never seen them on the back or ring side of any of my bows, at least not yet knock on wood!   :knothead:
Title: Re: Compression cracks
Post by: Stump73 on April 26, 2011, 08:53:00 PM
I just made a longbow from ironwood. After putting the last coat on and trying to decide which limb would be my top and bottom limb for my floppy arrow rest placement. I notice a squiggly line going across the grain on the fade about where the fade meets the limb. If it was a compression crack should I have noticed it when I put the first coat of tung oil on and not the 7th? Could it be in the finish? Will it hurt to shoot it? or can it be fixed easily?   Thanks Mike
Title: Re: Compression cracks
Post by: George Tsoukalas on April 26, 2011, 09:57:00 PM
Chrysals that are localized to one spot are caused by a bad tiller. That is the limb is bending too much in that place. I always fixed them by retillering. Leave that area alone and remove wood from above and below. Retiller the outer limb. If you cut out the chrysals and do  not retiller won't they come back? I've also fixed these by gluing on some rawhide over them. If the chrysals are over the entire limb then the fault is in the design? Jawge