I asked a couple guys in pm's here, and what they told me is opposite what a good friend of mine says, and he has made a lot of bows. I just gotta get her straight, before I go crazy.
So, I'm pulling my bow on the tillering tree from the center of the handle, bow is 66 tip to tip with even length limbs. As I pull the tillering rope down it drifts to the right of my centered vertical line on the tree. Now does this mean the right limb is too weak or too stiff?
I would say too stiff. The left limb is giving more and the stiffer right limb is pulling it to the right. Does that make sense? It makes sense in my lil' brain.
You're really worrying over nothing here Roy. A drawn profile on your tillering board doesn't accurately depict a hand drawn profile.
You see a lot of nice drawn profiles of bows on the tillering trees (here on these message boards) only to see those same bows show a greater lower limb bend when hand drawn....Art
Roy, Art is spot on in his advice. He gave me the same advice on here when I started and it has made a world of difference. I always work my bows to about 2-3 inches short of full draw on the tree and purposefully make the string track toward the stronger limb slightly. I then work them in to full draw in hand using a mirror.
The right limb is stiffer than the left. I think John Scifres uses a fulcrum on the handle and tillers until it tracks straight. At least that is how I think he does it. Maybe he can correct me if I'm wrong.
so scrub, where exactly does he hook the draw line, at the nock point,below the nock point or centre of the draw hand position( middle finger).
which finger should carry most of the draw?
thanks
wayne
4est, I wouldn't trust that old fart hill billy Art from WV any farther than I could throw him:) But he has given me some good advice also. Even though I don't agree with how he tillers his bows mind ya.. I really like his handle design though and the extended 6 inches at 1 1/4 wide out from the flares idea held to the same width as the flares, then even taper to 1/2 at the tips and a 1/8th taper from the 6 inch mark to the tips on the thickness of the limbs.
Here is the bow I am working on now with Art's layout.
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/IMG_6544.jpg)
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/IMG_6542.jpg)
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/IMG_6543.jpg)
So how did your experiment turn out?
Rope pulls to the strong side:)
Feel better now Roy!
I'm not even for sure it's a strong/weak side issue. Could be from uneven limb bend too. Looks like the entire right limb is sharing the work load where as the left limb, most of the stress is concretrated just outside the lower fade. Giving you a false positive.
Glad I could muddy the waters for you ol' bud........Art
Well that's just where I quit last night ole timer:) Got a ways to go and looks like the left limb is a little flat from mid limb out, I'll get her pretty for ya Art:)
Remember Roy, it's not so much about having a stronger lower limb, but where you make it stronger.
With the drawn profile you're showing on the tillering board right now, I would expect that to change when drawn by hand. Lower limb will come round (because of your split finger draw), leaving you with a pretty darn good looking drawn profile. I'm proud of you my man.....Art
I like that Roy,mid-limb on the left looks a tiny bit flat.I think Art is on with it coming round when drawn by hand.
I like my nocking point to travel south as I draw,This seems to give a good feel at the loose as well as good arrow flight.
I think points out the fine art of tillering eh?
Nice looking bow.
Chuck
You want to rock you baby in the cradle but you don't want your stave rocking in the cradle. Well, it took me 10 years into making bows that when the stave is rocking in the cradle that one side is appreciably stiffer than the other. If the tillering string drifts to the right as you face the rope and pulley then the right is the strong side. I never did like playground seesaws. Rather be playing football or baseball. Judging from Art's comments I probably should be playing baseball rather than making bows, Roy. Honestly, I don't see anything wrong with that tiller. Just imagine if y'all just knew me as the left fielder for the Boston Red Sox and not as Jawge the tiller hack. :) Jawge
Food for thought.....I'll probably regret these comments but thankfully there is an edit feature. Seriously, both limbs in that picture look to me to have an identical tiller. I've noticed that in the last 10 years selfbowyery has really been influenced by fiberglass bows. That is understandable. Heat it and bend it until it looks uniform. Cut the handle to center (just past is better). Trim up the width. Make one straight line from end of fade to nocks. Put over overlays on osage (one of the hardest woods!). Fast flight string. Now we're talking! Take out those roller coasters and dog legs. No knots allowed. The fiberglass mentality is what Paul Comstock calls it. Mind you this is not necessarily a bad thing. Just not my thing. I guess I'm old school. :) Jawge
Thanks. I feel better now. Got that off my chest. Going to finish some arrows for my daughter. Jawge
George,
Traditional archery is supposed to be old school buddy. Sometimes we all need to vent yours just makes more sense than mine. Keep venting we all need to hear it. It keeps us in check
Don't even own a glass bow George. Only owned one, and that was back in the early 70's. Like football, disgust baseball though! I'm not one that plays just to play, but one that plays for keeps.
The more efficient the equipment the more efficient the kill. That's my only mentality.
Happy to enlighten you George......Art
I am certainly happy to be enlightned, Art. Believe me I can use all that I an get.
"The more efficient the equipment the more efficient the kill. That's my only mentality."
Me too. My rant wasn't about efficiency, for the record.
But, Art, there is no need to put baseball down. :) Jawge
George, I hope you didn't misinterpet my good natural ribbing with Roy. Perhaps that was the comment you were referring to. That was just an extension of private communication. Trying to keep the old fart on his toes.
But since you're a fan of baseball, I'll refrain from speaking ill of the sport ever again. :biglaugh: Art
I didn't know Boston had a baseball team:) LOL
I don't care for making glass bows either, but I will say the guys on here make some nice glass bows.
But Wood is Good Stuff....
And most of what Art tells me goes in one ear and out the other, I only remember the good stuff he says:) I write that down so I don't fergetit:)
I guess I misunderstood how the experiment would go? If the string is stationary at the point where it contacts the string, then it should pull to the heavier side. If it's allowed to slide on the string then it should "slide" to the weaker side. That's just how I visioned it, but I'm probably wrong.
This is too much like thinking and it makes my head hurt. Them damn Yankees are supposed to be the smart ones anyway. :goldtooth: :biglaugh:
Trust me Elmo, the rope drifts to the strong side, dat's all ya gotta write down:)
I am certainly happy to be enlightned, Art. Believe me I can use all that I an get.
"The more efficient the equipment the more efficient the kill. That's my only mentality."
Me too. My rant wasn't about efficiency, for the record.
But, Art, there is no need to put baseball down. :) Jawge
I figured y'all would light up your torches on me.
That's ok, Art. I like ribbing. It's what we men do. Every now and then I gotta do a rant so you guys know I'm still around.
I like flower gardening and ballroom dancing. YOu can imagine the ribbing I take from my brothers. LOL.
"Trust me Elmo, the rope drifts to the strong side, dat's all ya gotta write down:)"
That's ok, Semo. Took me 10 years to figure that one out. Boston, sure does, Roy. I hear they won the World Series 2004 and 2007. I thought I'd never even see one in my life. I love baseball almost as much as primitive archery. It's close. :)
Jawge
QuoteOriginally posted by Art B:
Don't even own a glass bow George.
The more efficient the equipment the more efficient the kill. That's my only mentality.
+1 on that Art, I've got one glass bow a Bear Grizzly and I'll keep it forever cause it was passed down to me by my uncle. When it's time I may pass it down to my oldest nephew.
I'm all about making the most efficient bow I can, that's one reason why I stepped it up a notch with the bamboo backing. I'm rather pleased so far and a heck of alot more zip.
I want to reach a point where I hunt with my own bows and nothing else, just like some of you all do. :thumbsup:
I also have 1 glass bow. A Bear Victor Viking Takedown which I bought in 1970, maybe 71, could be 72, I forget now:) Took a slew of deer with it and it still shoots great, but darn it's about 5 pounds heavier than any of my BBO Bow's.
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/bow003-1.jpg)
That's pretty Roybert, I'd just keep it hung up somewhere for looking at.
I'll have to say Jawge hit it on the head with the glass mentality. Don't misunderstand me. I love all bows without wheels and shoot both all wood and glass but I only build wood bows. When I first started I had glass bow mentality and ruined some good staves trying to make them look like what I thought they should look like. Glass bow building and wood bow building are two different playgrounds.
Once i figured that out I started building some shooters. And for the record Jawge I like a little baseball myself bud, ;)
Alot of good input here on this subject and I always learn something so thanks for that.
I tiller my bows like Scifres on a fulcrum, the same Dean Torges does it. I do my tweaking in the hand while shooting in. But what I do works for me.
Stiks
I have seen these Ellipse pictures before but never tried it, how's it look?
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/BBOCIRCLE.jpg)
Looks pretty good Roy, maybe just a little more work on left side mid limb. It looks like it's not bending quite as much as the right limb.
Overall not bad for a Yankee that has a bird dog that points bullfrogs. :goldtooth:
What you're seeing Chris is a bow being tillered for a split finger draw. That left/lower limb will come round when draw by hand.
You would be correct if he were tillering for three under where the bow's center and drawing forces are more centered...Art
I can't quite wrap my mind around Art's statement. In my mind it seem three under would bring the limb around even more than split finger. I always assumed split was a more centralized form of shooting and 3 under is where the stronger bottom limb comes into play. I'm not saying he is wrong I just have trouble picturing it. Any help for a dummy like me?
Don't worry, Art can't either:)
Your thinking is reversed NYArrow. Three under is more apt to evenly strain both limbs where as split fingers adds extra strain to the lower limb causing the need for a stronger lower limb.
But all this is somewhat overstated because everybody grips a bow differently, no matter what method of draw they use. This positive/even tiller/stronger limb debate can be done away with, IMO, simply by tillering for even limb strain at full draw.
When you hear someone recommend a 1/4" positive tiller for split fingers and an even tiller for three under, what you're really getting is a one-size fits-all approach to cover the vast majority. In reality, if you tiller for even limb strain at full draw, you'll find your true tiller is much closer than the above approach........Art
Ok, after some real life testing, I edited this post because I was wrong in a part of my logic. But things still may not be what you think they are, or have been led to believe, so read on....
I respectfully disagree, Art. I concur with what NYArrow said. "In my mind it seem three under would bring the limb around even more than split finger. I always assumed split was a more centralized form of shooting and 3 under is where the stronger bottom limb comes into play."
Here's my thinking. The string is effectively divided into two parts of set length once the string hand is placed and begins pulling. It may help visualize this if we think of the bottom tip(left tip in Roy's pictures) as point A, the top tip(right tip) as point B, and the hook(or fingers) on the string as point C.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v312/Jeff_Durnell/Bowdrawing.jpg)
Sliding the string hand 'C' down toward the bottom tip 'A' shortens the distance A-C and lengthens B-C. These work basically as levers, and longer levers complete more work with the same force. Now, we're still drawing 'C' to anchor regardless, so since A-C is now a shorter lever, it is overpowered by side 'B' and tips that way. Hence, limb 'A' needs to be stronger to resist it and again establish balance.
In order for my example to act right, balanced at full draw, the left limb needs to be stronger. Stronger because of the force added to the bottom limb, not the top.
So, three under strains the bottom limb more than split, calling for a stronger bottom limb, and split finger strains the top more calling for a stronger top limb. Now, by stronger, I mean 'in relation to' being tillered the other way, not necessarily stronger as viewed at brace when compared to the other limb... but some truths are apparent there as well.
Art, you said, "When you hear someone recommend a 1/4" positive tiller for split fingers and an even tiller for three under, what you're really getting is a one-size fits-all approach to cover the vast majority."
I'd say what you're getting is poor advice... since the opposite results in better-tillered bows in each regard.
Better advice is; To tiller the bow so that the limbs see equal strain at full draw with the fulcrum point under the bow hand exactly where the shooter prefers it in the grip, and the fulcrum point on the string facilitating his grip there(three under, split, etc)... while disregarding advised arbitrary 'tiller measurements', such as 1/8 or 1/4 positive, etc.
A bow tillered evenly, with its center at the center of the handle, and pulled by the center of the string, will show both limbs flexing equally. Yep, hard to dispute that.
If the same bow, tillered evenly, is pulled from above string center, the top limb comes around sooner, bringing the arrow nock with it, and must be strengthened so that it won't. The converse is true as well.
It's definitely opposite of the advice often given.
Geez, bowjunkie, what engineering school you teach at? :D (That's South Arkansas speak for, "High tech description.")
Seriously, your illustration and explanation is quite understandable.
Keep up the explanations, guys, I'm learning tons.
Stan
Well now I am confused. Art from WV says this, and Bowjunkie from Pa says this.
But which way will the pull rope slide towards, to the weak limb or strong limb? Dat's all I wanna know.
And the other thing I wanna know is, should I pull the bow from the center of the handle on the tree, or should I pull it from the top of the handle, which is closer to where I will pull it when shooting it .
I sold my compound and started making my own trad bows for myself in order to get away from "Complicated" and gravitate toward "Simple".......so much for simple.
Maybe this is effectively what I'm doing when I make the bottom limb a more positive tiller than the top limb to shoot well with my 2 fingers under style release? And didn't even realize it?
Or did I. :rolleyes:
Well not having done any of this yet, I'd say its a little offset to the right... or am I looking at it wrong?
Aloha... :archer2:
Bowjunkie,the only thing that I can think of that would cause the distance between A and C to be that close is if the arrow pass and string nock is center of the bow. That would place the bow/drawing hand below the dimensional center of the bow causing greater strain on the lower limb. Here, even limb mass would be ignored, causing timing/balance problems.
Concept of even tiller is based on the fact that the drawing force of the hand is more in line with dimensional center of the bow (arrow pass above center). And gripping the bow so that even strain is applied to both limbs and both limbs having equal mass for best timing/balance.
So, if the drawing force "C" is center of the string, bow hand center of the bow, how can the lower limb be more strained over the upper limb? It can't, because both limbs receive equal strain.
What am I missing here? Art
QuoteOriginally posted by Roy from Pa:
And the other thing I wanna know is, should I pull the bow from the center of the handle on the tree, or should I pull it from the top of the handle, which is closer to where I will pull it when shooting it .
I think, if what you were previously doing (pulling from the top of the handle) was working for you Roy, you wouldn't be asking this question........Art
It was working Art, but I noticed most all of the guys on here pulling from the center, that I thought I could be doing it wrong.
I use to pull from the top of the handle also Roy. Only because of the recommendations of a some folks on these boards. First thing I noticed was that most of my scraping/reduction was being done on the lower limb to maintain an even tiller as the bow progressed to full draw. Perhaps you've noticed this too?
I like to ask questions, so I asked myself why was this happening. To use Bowjunkie's illustration, reverse it, and using A as the upper limb, you will notice the upper limb with a tighter radius. To even out tiller and catch up the bottom limb (A), it must be scraped more.
Sure, you can make this apporach work. But by pulling closer to center you not only keep the limbs more evenly strain during the building process, but even limb mass is better maintained.......Art
Guys, I edited my post above after some more thinking and testing. Please revisit it and let me know your thoughts.
Well if the top limb comes around sooner when shooting split finger, then why would anyone want a positive tiller on the top limb? And for 3 under shooters, it seems they would need a less positive tiller than split? I'm more confused now than before:)
"Well if the top limb comes around sooner when shooting split finger, then why would anyone want a positive tiller on the top limb?"
Bingo! That's the million dollar question. Because they're doing what they're told instead of taking the time to test it themselves. Not everyone follows those guidelines, Roy.
I watched, and fought, what was happening on my tillering tree in denile for a long time.
"And for 3 under shooters, it seems they would need a less positive tiller than split? I'm more confused now than before:)"
No, more positive.... or, a stronger bottom limb, relatively speaking.
Here, read this.
Tillering the Organic Bow (http://www.bowyersedge.com/organic.html)
Yeah, I use to be stuck in that same logic Jeff, but since moved on. Keep testing.......Art
Roy, the top limb comes around quicker ONLY on the tillering board (when drawn closer to the top of the handle). Not while the bow is actually being shot. That's where the confusion is coming into play.
When the bow is being drawn on the tillering (again, when drawn from the top of the handle) board the top limb receives the tighter radius.
When the bow is being drawn by hand (using split fingers, bow with positive tiller), the tighter radius shifts from the top limb to the lower limbs BECAUSE of the hand/heel pressure.
That why the tillering tree has been described as the lying tree. If you strictly use a tillering tree to set the bow's tiller then you get what Bowjunkie prescribed.
Do a search for "tillering for three under". Lots of reads and opinions. Here's a few:
http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=100511
http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=098117
http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=search_tng;d=results;record=2455686-142653-GY9N;result_start=20
http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=083262
http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=077022
http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=1;t=075748
Roy, the top limb comes around quicker ONLY on the tillering board (when drawn closer to the top of the handle). Not while the bow is actually being shot. That's where the confusion is coming into play.
When the bow is being drawn on the tillering (again, when drawn from the top of the handle) board the top limb receives the tighter radius.
When the bow is being drawn by hand (using split fingers, bow with positive tiller), the tighter radius shifts from the top limb to the lower limbs BECAUSE of the hand/heel pressure.
So therefore Art, that's why one should pull the bow at the center of the handle on the tree?
That's one reason Roy. You can't accurately mimic one's draw on the tillering board when using the split finger draw. But at least you're maintaining even limb strain, and just as important, at least to me, is maintaining equal limb mass.........Art
Roy, like I said before, the bows themselves are the best instructors. When you have serious questions, don't blindly take someone else's word, including mine. Get off the computer, get out to your shop, and study, test, learn, and adapt. People can get confused, bows generally can't. The bows, they have the correct anwers. Let THEM teach you.
"Roy, the top limb comes around quicker ONLY on the tillering board (when drawn closer to the top of the handle). Not while the bow is actually being shot. That's where the confusion is coming into play."
Yes, it CAN be confusing, but it doesn't have to be. The reason that problem 'seems' to go away is because the bow hand is flexible and allows for the shifting fulcrum. I'd rather that didn't happen however, because other problems can come with it, and work to avoid it as much as possible.
"When the bow is being drawn by hand (using split fingers, bow with positive tiller), the tighter radius shifts from the top limb to the lower limbs BECAUSE of the hand/heel pressure."
I don't know about that, but if so, I'd rather that didn't happen either. That sounds like a good reason to draw the bow from as close to its center as possible. i.e. asymetrical limb design.
"That why the tillering tree has been described as the lying tree. If you strictly use a tillering tree to set the bow's tiller then you get what Bowjunkie prescribed."
Perhaps some don't have it set up as well as they should, misuse it, or misinterpret it, and then make judgements based on the resulting bad information.
I make my final assessments by hand as well, but careful use of my tillering tree invariably gets me right in there with no surprises.
"You can't accurately mimic one's draw on the tillering board when using the split finger draw."
Well, we can sure do a lot better than drawing it with the hook in the middle of the handle :^)
later dudes, I have lots of sanding to do.
i always used a hook loop so i wasnt constantly rubbing on the string. i gave my tillering stick a fulcrum as well and always made my bows so the middle finger is the middle part of the bow. tiller to 2-3 close like everyone else and see where youre at in a mirror.
good luck...
gosh, after reading this I am hessitant to even trust me eyes or the Tiller tree :dunno: I guess more bow breaking an d hands on learning time will have to provide this Newby with the answers I seek...
Lee, don't be hesitant at all. Make shavings. Tillering for the first time can seem to be daunting but with time it gets easier to get a bow. Do it. Check my site. Jawge
http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/
Don't be scared Lee. If Art and I can do it, then any one can do it:)
Thanks for the link above, bowjunkie. Dean's explanation is very good.
Stan
Thanks guys...not saying I CAN'T do it just that I'm right on the cusp of doing so and heading from the floor tiller and long string to a short string this weekend. Since I'm sneaking in on the more critical steps of tillering and finding the bow I and just get a bit nervous about the process and hopefully not missing any major step or doing this incorrectly.
Anyway, great topic folks!
Malarky.... :saywhat:
LOL, too dang true Chris...maybe I just shouldn't read all these threads on "theory" and sit and stew on some of the paragraphs in the Torges book that make me go hmmmmmmm.
I really only slowed down this week cause I was debarking a nice skinny Osage stave to start for my oldest boy while I am working on some of the trickier stuff on my Trade bow BUT as I was brilliantly using my drawknife to remove the sapwood and excess stuff around a pin knot by pressing the pulled up run of sapwood against the blade edge and lifting...the sapwood stayed put and once again I got "bit" by my drawknife. This time was much worse than the last blood letting though and I completely removed a nice 1" long, 1/2" wide and 1/4" deep triangle of meat from the inside ball of my thumb. :scared: Ouch...would be putting it mildly. All I know is that if all my deer left a blood trail like I did from the basement to the sink I could find them in the dark with my eyes closed :goldtooth:
Anyway, I have it gauzed up and the snot taped out of it and trying to use a drawknife or my scrapers is a bit tough at the moment. I'm hoping that by early next week I can get the wrapping down to a size that allows me to bend my thumb so I can have some gripping ability and some control on the tools.
What a wreck...LOL
Ouch!! Been there, done that......hope you heal up soon man. I always wear gloves when I'm prepping staves and using the draw knife for anything except chasing a ring.
Thanks Bud, I actually had just taken off my pair of "Iron Clads" when I was opening my can of shellac to soak the stiff brush in prep for coating the backs when I was done cleaning a pile of them up. Oh well, lesson learned again.