Trad Gang

Main Boards => The Bowyer's Bench => Topic started by: crgibson on April 17, 2011, 04:54:00 PM

Title: Question on Handle Layout
Post by: crgibson on April 17, 2011, 04:54:00 PM
I am a little confused on layout. I have drawn 2 handle designs easier for me to do then for me trying to explain. Both (A) and (B) have same 4" handles, 2" fades,and 68" long. My question is, what is the differences? When do you use (A) or (B) or is it a preference? I like the way handle (A) is laid out you grip at center and 1" above is in a comfortable location but don't understand way lower limb is shorter is this for positive tiller? Then riser (B) dead center makes limbs equal but makes arrow locater 1 1/2" plus above true center and hand feels a little cramped. Do you just fudge handle and arrow locater between fades? Thanks for your help, Crgibson (http://i1232.photobucket.com/albums/ff371/enterprise401/Picture350.jpg)
Title: Re: Question on Handle Layout
Post by: Roy from Pa on April 17, 2011, 05:06:00 PM
Center your handle at the center of the bow. Use B.
Title: Re: Question on Handle Layout
Post by: Art B on April 17, 2011, 07:03:00 PM
Either design will fuction properly, IF you grip each design correctly.

If you think in terms of your limbs starting dead center of the bow, then both A and B have the same length limbs.

Drawing A would require a straight wrist grip to properly balance limb strain w/equal mass.

Drawing B would require a little more hand contact to balance out the limbs.

Personally, I'm really starting to dislike a shortened (by the handle) lower limb myself......Art
Title: Re: Question on Handle Layout
Post by: Lee Slikkers on April 17, 2011, 08:15:00 PM
I've been wondering the same thing but everything I started to write a thread asking the question my descriptions got all wadded up.  Your drawing really helped explain what you were asking...

I'd still love to hear some more opinions and reasoning behind the preferences.
Title: Re: Question on Handle Layout
Post by: George Tsoukalas on April 17, 2011, 08:26:00 PM
Selfbow? Jawge
Title: Re: Question on Handle Layout
Post by: vanillabear? on April 17, 2011, 09:02:00 PM
Title: Re: Question on Handle Layout
Post by: scrub-buster on April 17, 2011, 10:57:00 PM
I use drawing B on my selfbows.  I figure I am holding the bow in center and drawing the string in center.  The arrow is just riding the string slightly above center.  

I have tried drawing A, and found it a little tougher to tiller and didn't see any advantage.
Title: Re: Question on Handle Layout
Post by: Roy from Pa on April 17, 2011, 11:28:00 PM
I'm just gonna quit maken real bows and buy a wheel bow. Them boys got it all fugered out for us:)
Title: Re: Question on Handle Layout
Post by: vanillabear? on April 18, 2011, 12:16:00 AM
Title: Re: Question on Handle Layout
Post by: StoneAK on April 18, 2011, 12:37:00 AM
I always go for B the center handle it works best for my bows. Good Luck
Title: Re: Question on Handle Layout
Post by: crgibson on April 18, 2011, 04:15:00 AM
Thanks for all the reply's,  So my question was general bow handle layout and the differences between the two drawings. The bow layout reference I used as a guide a few times on my self bows was from a net search and I found some old 1940's Popular Mechanics,Outdoor Sports,and a few other good bow making articles. Both Handles were used on board bows,stave bows, and ELB D belly types. When I started making bows they were all mostly sapling selfbows and I used handle (A) most of them failed, upper limbs. Now looking back can say it was do mostly to poor tillering and poor wood selection. All of this was Pre Trad Gang.. My most recent bow projects have been board bows with help from a few build-alongs all using handle (B)dead center and I have made one 58" rawhide backed Hawthorn selfbow with handle (A) thats hanging in their.  George would like your advice please on selfbows cus got some nice Saskatoon (service berry)ruffed out ready to go on next.

Thanks again for all the advice, Crg   GO CANUCKS!
Title: Re: Question on Handle Layout
Post by: Art B on April 18, 2011, 07:30:00 AM
The difference between the two designs is nothing more than how you would have to grip the bows to achieve best balance for limb timing.........Art
Title: Re: Question on Handle Layout
Post by: **DONOTDELETE** on April 18, 2011, 10:03:00 AM
Here is a silly question for you guys... why are you making the riser so short? The shortest riser i have in the house is 14" fade to fade and that's on a 52" bow... I'm just curious... most of my risers range from 16" to 20"....
Title: Re: Question on Handle Layout
Post by: snag on April 18, 2011, 10:36:00 AM
I'll give this a try....in selfbows you try and get the most limb length to work for you. In a glass bow because of it's strength you can have a shorter limb. So by making the "riser" on a selfbow smaller and fades that aren't real long you achieve having a longer limb to work for you without having to have a heavier draw weight to do this.
Title: Re: Question on Handle Layout
Post by: Buemaker on April 23, 2011, 07:49:00 AM
Just for the heck of it I sometimes go 1 1/2 and 2 1/2  Bue--.
Title: Re: Question on Handle Layout
Post by: Living_waters on April 23, 2011, 10:43:00 AM
QuoteOriginally posted by Art B:
The difference between the two designs is nothing more than how you would have to grip the bows to achieve best balance for limb timing.........Art
Was reading an article and the author was playing with the difference between true center for arrow nock and above center. His claim is there is not only a difference in grip but cast, although slight but it is there. True center has a more balanced force on release, he says less torque on arrow as it passes the shelf resulting in a slight increase in speed.  

Myself I tend to lean the direction that has been noted Byron furgeson explaining. I like the pivot of my thumb and for finger to push in to the center of the bow, with a 1 finger over and two under draw it balances the draw with no hand torque. For me this is more accurate. I even do this on my self bows if the stave is deep enough.
Title: Re: Question on Handle Layout
Post by: crgibson on April 23, 2011, 11:40:00 AM
Thanks for the help Bue, im right in-between using layout B seems to be working. Chuck
Title: Re: Question on Handle Layout
Post by: Pat B on April 23, 2011, 11:59:00 AM
When I lay out a selfbow I mark the middle of the stave, then make a mark 2" on either side of that for the actual handle and another 1 1/2" to 2" out for the fades. This usually puts my arrow about 1" to 1 1/2" above center. I like a bulbous handle so this gets the limbs bending right up to or through the handle.
Title: Re: Question on Handle Layout
Post by: SEMO_HUNTER on April 23, 2011, 01:47:00 PM
I think my own personal preferrence falls somewhere in between the 2 designs you have there?
A 4" handle just feels too small and the bottom of my bow hand is nearly covering up the bottom fade, so I usually end up making my handle section around 5-5.5" long. I like the web between my thumb and forefinger to sit as close to dead center of the bow as possible, then my arrow actually goes about 1" or slightly higher above my hand. Unless I'm shooting right off the top knuckle then it's probably 3/4" or so. I also try for a slightly positive bottom tiller rather than a longer top limb.

May not be textbook correct, but it works for me.

Roy- I agree, I think you should stop building bows and just send all your excess material, clamps, jigs, forms, ect. on down here to me so you won't be tempted to make anymore bows.   :thumbsup:    :goldtooth:    :laughing:
Title: Re: Question on Handle Layout
Post by: Roy from Pa on April 23, 2011, 03:27:00 PM
:)
Title: Re: Question on Handle Layout
Post by: Dick in Seattle on April 23, 2011, 03:49:00 PM
First, I'm talking glass bows...

I copied my beginning style from Louie Armbruster, who recommended "middle/middle"... center of riser on center of bow...  Once you string it, before cutting a shelf, you measure the string to bow distance at the ends of the fades and the shorter measurement determines the lower limb.  ( This was  back when I used shelves, clearly a non-traditional development, first step toward compound bows    :)   Also makes your bow unfriendly to lefties.)

Since I'm building glass and am short draw/low weight limit, I favor long fades, 18", to allow me to use longer limbs but still have a shorter working limb length.

Later, after reading much about shifting the riser for a shorter lower limb, I tried that, too.  I've built maybe six bows that way and I can't really say I see much difference in the shooting.   On my latest aluminum form, I marked one side for "middle/middle" and the other for shorter lower limb.   I will probably go back to middle/middle.  It just seems simpler and I like simple.