i really prefer my bows to bend thru the handle- does this work well for a RD bow- or are there potential problems, with leverage in the deflex area.
or is this merely a matter of personal preferance.
wayne
It should work fine. Make it so the handle gives a little right at full draw.
thanks Pat.
is it not really the norm??
would there be performance losses with it?
thanks
My favorite design is a 60" osage with deflexed center section and reflexed outer thirds to flipped tips, bend in the handle. Go for it and post pics :)
I have one of John's bows like he is talking about. I'm not quite sure it bends at the handle but it might a touch.
Shoots awesome!
hey John.
do you have pics of one of them, or even possibly a profile drawing, that i could build a caul from- huge request i know!!
Wayne,
Get uncle Dean's video!!! there is no need for a caul, the way he does it and explains it makes a lot of sense and you can experiment till your'e heart's content.
It's called "Hunting the Bamboo Backed Bow"
Look up bowyersedge.com. and you should be able to find it.
Good luck.
Bert.
thanks bert, i remember watching your copy, i think!
but that was quite a while ago.
i will certianally have to buy one now
thanks
have a good time !!
PERSONALLY, I wouldn't want a bow to flex in the grip at all. I don't want ANY movement in the sight window, as that is the weak link of a bow. I want that portion as tough as possible in order to prevent failure.
I thought about doing the same with the hickory stave I just got. Sinew back it and make it short like John was talking about. Lee I think your right on the mark with glass bows, but wood bows have no problems beding through the handle, they love it!
Having a bow bend in the handle actually releaves the stresses in the bending bow by spreading those stresses throughout the working section of the bow, handle included. With a stiff handle the stresses are congrigated at the fades where the bending limb transitions into the non working handle.
great explination Pat, I couldnt agree more.
pat, i always notice that bow in your avatar- do you have any other pics of it- maybe even an unstrung profile- i am sure it will help me with my next caul
thanks, and regards
wayne
I traded that bow a few years ago. My current hunting bow is the same(60"t/t, osage static recurve, 55#@26"). Here the caul I bent the tips with. I also built a similar elm bow for Kodiak Kid for the TG Bow Trade. It is the bow in these pics...
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/TGtradebow2011009.jpg)
...and the caul I added back set to the bow...
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/TGtradebow2011004.jpg)
...and the unfinished bow unbraced...
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/2011TGtradebowelm006-1.jpg)
This is a close up of the recurve form...
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/2011TGtradebowelm014.jpg)
..and here is my hunting bow(osage)
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/TwoTips002.jpg)
...and my hunting set...
(http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y199/PatBNC/TJspossiblebag005.jpg)
that is sooo nice Pat.
thanks that will be a great help.
i love how your hunting arrows are all kinda different- just how a primitive hunter would have been- if the arrow shot well, it was in his quiver i imagine!!
an intimate knowledge of his equipment gave him the personal knowledge and understanding of each piece of his equipment as was needed.
i sincerely doubt they had perfectly matched arrows, like we strive for so hard nowdays.
a symptom of our truly amorphous modern society.
thanks again pat- always appreciated.
I agree with Lee. If you bend in the grip then you are concentrating all the compression forces in tbe weakest part of the bow. Glass or wood, compression is still compression. Unless you have no sight cutout at all and no grip shaping at all.
God bless you all, Steve
QuoteOriginally posted by fujimo:
i really prefer my bows to bend thru the handle- does this work well for a RD bow- or are there potential problems, with leverage in the deflex area.
or is this merely a matter of personal preferance.
wayne
Why do you want the riser or handle bending? I'm just curios what is the advantage would be?
QuoteOriginally posted by Pat B:
Having a bow bend in the handle actually releaves the stresses in the bending bow by spreading those stresses throughout the working section of the bow, handle included. With a stiff handle the stresses are congrigated at the fades where the bending limb transitions into the non working handle.
This may prove to be valuable in an all wood bow to keep it from blowing up..... but for us guys that use crutches and build glass bows, we like to store the energy in the limbs instead of the riser so we can harvest it. ;)
You are definitely loosing performance in a flexible riser.
A bend in the handle design is very common among natural material bowyers and must have been the very first bows. Most native bows were of this design. Most English longbows bend in the handle.
It is true that you don't cut in a sight window but that's true about many wooden bows. Shaping the handle is usually done by adding leather and shaping that, if at all.
This design is often thought to be more natural to aim and shoot, more of extension of the arm vs. a separate part. It also allows all the wood you are carrying to do its share of the work and to make shorter and handier natural material designs.
I have built faster (if that is the definition of performance) bendy handled bows than rigid handled ones, especially using sinew.
Thanks John.... i appreciate the explanation. I haven't studied much of the history of building bows with natural materials, but have a deep respect for skilled self bowyer's that have taken the time to do so. interesting stuff. You folks have the patience of Job.
There is also a fine group of truly talented glass bowyer's out there who take just as much pride in their work through fine artistic joinery and balancing of the limbs as the masters of primitive weapons do.
it would be a truly wonderful thing to see more mutual respect for craftsmanship than I've seen among the self bowyer's and composite builders.
We are all brothers of the bare bow here who find joys and challenges in different ways....
sincerely, Kirk
hi kirk,
thanks for the response, but teach me something here, if, hypothetically, a glass bow had a bend in the handle design, no sight window, etc( as john explained) surely that flexing- in whatever form, is stored energy, and can be converted to dynamic energy in the form of the arrow- does this create problems for glass bows, i am just delving into glass bows, having only made all wood/self bows previously, and need to learn as much as possible.
thanks
wayne
Kirk, you make nice glass bows. And we all know a wooden bow will not out shoot a glass bow. But not all of us are looking for the fastest bow on the market. Some Bowyers like to stay on the primitive side, and still kill deer.
Give it a shot sometime Kirk, grab a piece of wood and make a bow, then hunt with it.
Pat, are those broadheads, especially the first, third and fourth from the left, homemade or did you pick those up somewhere? I have toyed with the idea of perhaps making my own broadheads from some old saw blades and your broadheads look very clean and well designed.
Wesw, the broadheads on the right arrows(sourwood shoots) are homemade. One is stone(not by me) and the other a trade point I made. On the 4 cane arrows, 2 are WW, one Zwikey and one obsidian.
I'm not doubting anyones ability to build bows here Kirk, wood or glass. I am telling you what I have worked out for myself over the 25+ years I've been building wood bows, most of which are selfbows and many of them bend through the entire bow. I shoot off my knuckle(floppy rest) and don't have cut out window in the risers. I do add leather, back and belly, to fill out the handle so it is comfortable to hold and shoot. I also shoot arrows that are spined correctly for the bows I shoot.
John gave a good explaination of why we build bows that bend through the handle. My 60", 55#@26" recurve shoot 650+gr hardwood shoot or cane arrows with plenty of authority and go where I want them to go. For me, that is plenty good enough!
By the way, I have had very few selfbows blow up in my years of building them. If built properly they will last my lifetime if I don't give them away first. And as for showing respect, I have seen nothing disrespectful in any of this conversation about bendy handle bows until now!
No offense meant in any way here and I am sure Kirk has the same respect for self bowyers that I have. Thanks John for your answer. It truly answered. Performance is not speed alone to me but is every aspect of the way a bow shoots. That includes self bows. I have built a few yew bows and I understand what really great bowyers a good self bow builder are. However that does not mean that some of us that build glass bows do not pay the same attention to the bow . I respect all of you for what you do. I also love the bows. If the feeling is not mutual that is fine too. However the brotherhood of the bow should be there . We love and do the same things. I chip heads, I make quivers. I build just about every kind of bow that is there and I love em all. God bless you all, Steve
God bless you, Steve
John: Thanks and God bless you sir!!
Until now Pat?
I don't believe there was anything disrespectful said on this thread at all, quite the contrary actually..... the whole reason i brought up the mutual respect thing was referring to your comments on another thread about using glass is a crutch...i thought that was a cheap shot at composite builders, and disrespectful.
Building glass and carbon backed bows, and blending in nice exotic hardwoods is an art form too....it's not all about speed and efficiency either.... i find it absolutely amazing the type of performance and longevity that some of you guys get out of these bows with the use of all natural materials. This compliment doesn't come lightly either. I've been working my hands in wood for over 40 years.
I'm very happy that you enjoy building primitive bows Pat, and you think they are good enough. I'm actually looking forward to trying my hand at it someday myself.
In the mean time I'm working on the development of a world class recurve limb using carbon composites.... Do you have any idea what goes into building a 90 meter competition limb? it's very intense stuff brutha...fun too!
Fujimo,
That is an interesting question. i can see where a flexible handle on a narrow long bow shooting off hand would ease the pressure on the fades in a wood bow and could be very efficient especially if you could get it flexing while you were bracing the bow. Early weight, is good weight.
The problem with using fiberglass backing and getting a high yield of proficiency is that glass is very heavy. We need the those risers to be dead solid, store the energy in the limbs, and push the working limb out towards the tips more so less limb is moving forward. i don't see how the energy stored in riser flex can be harvested in a composite backed bow with a short working limb design. I've never build an off hand flex grip bow before.
There is a measurable difference between a stiff riser and a flexible one using the same identical limbs in 3 pc take down bows..... the down side of the ultra stiff riser is your pre-load and timing has to be perfect, or you feel the vibration in the grip....this takes extra care and time to balancing it out, and it's tricky work.
it might be fun to try building a flex handle bow using carbon composites or thin glass and ultra light core material and test it out.
thanks kirk, just the kind of info i am looking for- i kinda had in muind to someday experiment with a glass bow, bend in the handle design.cos i like that design so much, and works so well with my wood bows.
but one step at a time.
as i am just about to try my hand at my first glass bow.
is it the epoxies that add the weight to the bow.( and the glass!)
what i do like about glass bows, is the type of wood that can be used, that would never be able to be used for a self bow- and some really pretty woods too!!
but if they fling an arra, i like em!
each person to their own, and each bow to its own.
thanks to ya all
I've never made a stiff handle bow yet. I like my bend in the handle bows.
I don't agree with the statement that a bend in the handle bow concentrates all forces to the handle...if that were true only the handle would be bending.
don't agree with the statement that a bend in the handle bow concentrates all forces to the handle...if that were true only the handle would be bending.
Nam: your hand is a fulcrim. It is the cause of the entire bow bending. It is in the center of the bow. If the center is not stiffer the compression forces will break the bow. The limbs are a lever on each side of the center or handle.
Question: what is the stiffest part of the bow?
Answer. It has to be the center or you will not have tiller through the rest of the bow.
When I made that statement it was ammended if there was no window cutout or handle shaping.
That was properly answered. I would also think that the Buffalo bow design would work with both window and grip shaping because it retains the wood mass. The self bows I have built were yew English style using directions from the Hunting With the Bow and Arrow. they get narrow through the grip but deeper. They also are true self bows using the sapwood as the backing.
As to bending in the handle. All bows do to a degree. I have not found a riser design with absolutely no flex in it yet even in my heavy I beam phenolics. I believe as some have already said that the differences we have here are mostly in definition.
BTW the crutch statement was extremely devisive and elitist. I felt sorry that Pat said that. I respect his work and ability. I do not care for that attitude though.I do not use glass as a crutch and never have. It was just another step in my bow building which opened up new horizons to me. I have never left behind or forgotten the lessons I learned building self bows and lam bows.
God bless you all, Steve
God bless you all, Steve
I too was referring to bows that have cut outs for the sightwindow...no matter how small. If there is a sight window at all cut into the bow, I would NOT want the handle to bend...for the cut out would cause a henge...and a henge anywhere in any bow is prone to failure.
If however the arrow rest is ADDED to the bow with leather or a separate piece of wood, then I would be MUCH LESS concerned about a slight flex in the handle.
My only comment is to prevent any henge effect. If a henge is eliminated...by forces gradually fading into the bow and being evenly dispersed (to prevent concentration points), then all is good.
I have great respect for an excellent self bowyer. Few impress me to be honest, but when I find one that does...very few bows impress me more. A good selfbow is a gem. IMO, a self bowyer needs to be EXTREMELY patient!
The best selfbow I ever saw was yew wood bow that had about 90-100 growth rings it it. It was made by Mike Hunike of Oregon and he did outstanding work. I know he made several, but unfortunately it was the only one of his bows I ever saw. I owned it for several years, but did eventually sell it as it was about 78#28" if I remember correctly. People that have the gift to do work like his really have an exceptional talent in my opinion.
Another excellent one is pictured below. It was made by Charlie Divers (? on the name exactly). It is owned by Gary Sentman (and he is actually selling it). I liked it, but at 70" it is too long for me personally. It is 65#@28." Despite being such a long and heavy piece of osage, it shot darn good. I really expected it to rattle my teeth (I have shot a few other long osage self bows and I always felt tremendous aftershock. The one below didn't have that issue at all...and if it was 65-66" I might have been interested in it myself. I figure it could be remilled, but I would hate to get into it and mess it up. (I am not a selfbowyer). Here is a photo of me drawing it to 28."
(http://www.protegelongbows.com/CharlieDiversOsageBow.JPG)
I think that all bowyers whether they are wood bow makers or glass bow makers we all love archery and the aspect of flinging arrows. I haven't made a glass bow yet but I will in the near future if my supplies ever come in. I loved the response by John you really have studied the art of primitive bows. I also enjoy reading and studying the ways of primitive archery. I stick to wood mainly because I am very inexperienced in glass bows and hate wasting money lol :biglaugh:
I'm not an argumentative person and I didn't mean to offend anyone with my opinions and appologise if I did.
If I'm not mistaken, I think my "crutch" statement was about adding a glass back to a wood bow. IMO that is not necessary and in many cases is detrimental to a wood bow. I'm sure there have been successful wood bows with glass backs. A few years ago there were quite a few commercial bowyers that tried it but abandoned the idea because of problems. I think Dryad was one that tried(I'm only using Dryad as an example here).
I own glass bows; One Treadway longbow and a recurve made by Owen Jeffery. I don't shoot them much anymore as I prefer wood bows. I don't consider myself elite! I do think that lots of folks think of wood bows as toys or inferrior to their glass/wood laminated counterpart. My intentions are to promote wood bowyery as an good alternative to the more modern aspects of archery. After all, if it weren't for wood bows being simotaniously developed around the world(pretty remarkable turn of events)some 15000 years ago and people depending on them for food and protection for the 14020 years since we probably wouldn't be here today discussing the pros and cons of todays archery world.
Also, trying to converse over the internet is difficult at best because of the lack of emotion in the typed word.
You are a good man Pat... it's self evident your love for building wood bows... and i agree that passing the age old techniques of building bows with natural materials will keep the cycle complete.
Anyone glass bowyer or archer that thinks
" wood bows as toys or inferrior to their glass/wood laminated counterpart." are ignorant or fools.....
Of course the care and up keep is more critical, as well as keeping a close eye on MC levels on an all wood bow....But inferior???? Not on your life.
By enjoyment standards, working with fiber glass and carbon is very nasty stuff...quite honestly i think that is why i have stayed away from all wood bows. I would probably throw all this nasty crap in a heap and not look back.... :biglaugh:
I believe with all my heart that the Master bowyer's can do it all, and the true masters are building self bows and board bows, because they already threw the nasty fiberglass in a heap. :)
either that or there are masters like Sixby that are trying to feed his family doing this stuff,and realize the safety factor is much higher using the modern composites....
God HAS blessed you Steve. And may he continue to do so brutha...
Btw.... to give credit where credit is due I wouldn't be where i am today if it wasn't for Steve unselfishly sharing his trade craft with me.
You are a good man Steve.
Kirk
I was a boat and outboard motor mechanic for years plus a surfer in my younger days so had my fill of fiberglass then. I did attempt a Bingham project a few years ago that was a failure because I didn't get the handle fade outs smooth, paper thin or even. It blew before the string was put on. It came out of the form with a bit of twist. When I called Binghams about tjhis I was told to clamp the handle in a vise and torque the limb a bit in the opposite direction. It blew right at the fade with very little pressure. After that I totally lost interest in building glass lam bows.
I know lots of work and engineering goes into glass lam bows. My brain doesn't allow for the engineering part! With wood bows I just remove whatever doesn't look like a bow and in most cases I end up with a bow. Instead of pre-thinking the bow I let the stave tell me what it wants to be. The ones that don't work out go in the "corner of shame" and usually at a later date I can remove it from there and make it into a nice, working bow. Patience and a fresh look makes this possible for me...plus there are a lot of lessons learned from failures and I try to take advantage of these lessons.
My next bow looks like it wants to bend through the handle again. I might try the R/D approach with it.
Hello All: All you guys are lovers of the bow. I'm glad you are all here and that I have the time to read all your remarks. You will all stay brothers, weather you like one another or not. I'm just glad to here from you all.
- Hard Head -
Here is a bow like I described above. It has a slightly deflexed center third with reflexed outer thirds and flipped tips. It's 58" long and 60# at 28". It is 1-1/10" wide for the center third and tapers to 3/8" nocks. It took third place in the inaugural Ambush Bow Contest the Trad Bowyer's Journal used to hold.
(http://hedgerowselfbows.webs.com/photos/General-Photos/drawnhand1.jpg)
(http://hedgerowselfbows.webs.com/photos/General-Photos/drawnhand2.jpg)
Here's it's first blood after I painted it camo and recurved the tips a bit.
(http://sticknstring.webs.com//photos/null/09squirrel02.jpg)
And the full story: 2009 Squirrel Hunt (http://sticknstring.webs.com/2009squirrelhunt.htm)
Wow! the broadhead looks as big as yer fist! :eek: :eek: and that shaft looks like its pretty stout too.... what have you got there John, Osage?
I'll bet that thing has a serious cast to it.
Yes, osage bow. The head is a Ribtek 190. Same head I shot the squirrel with :)
I used to shoot the Ribby 190s. Called them flying butcher knives. You never pull one out of the quiver without comments from the peanuts.
God bless you all, Steve