Hey guys....I've built probably a couple hundred self and all-wood bows over the past two decades, but have never built a vine-maple bow.
I aquired a stave my last trip to MOJAM, I think in 2006 from a fella from Washington state (I wish I could remember his name....anybody remember?) and have been saving it for a future project for myself. You know...rainy day or loooong winter!
Anyway, being no beginner, I have roughed out the stave, and it looks to be a good one. I won't need to flip tips or straighten anything, and it has some good character with few if any visable flaws. At first I didn't know what to expect (I know vine maple is a fine bow wood) in that it's density seems light to me, but it proves to be strong and resiliant to work and initial floor tillering. It will make a quite long bow, at least 66 inches nock-to-nock, and has plenty of width. I am electing to use a flat cross-section limb, narrowing quite a bit at the tips and having a stiff, short handle section. I'd really like the bow to come out in the upper 60's to 70 pound range at 28" draw.
I've done a search here, and looked at the awesome bows built by Gordon, and a few examples by others....but would still love to see some input from some of you other guys with good experience and especially your take on vine-maple.
A couple questions....is it typical to need to back vine-maple with rawhide for "extra" peace of mind? Remember I'm shooting for a quite heavy bow here.
The stave was already in "peeled" stage, and I'm assuming done as many white-wood bows are...bark off and good to go.....but having set in my shop for these many years now, and upon close inspection, I am seeing some "flaky" spots on the back. I'm guessing this to be inner bark that was left on. It's quite dry, and scrapes off easy. Is this typical?
I do have one small pin not. If this was osage, I would have no worries about it, but is this a concern with vine-maple....should I wrap this?
Fill me with your thoughts and info guys!
Wish I could help you. I've been trying to get some vinemaple too to try. I'll be paying attention to your post for info.
i've done a few Vine Maple bows.
you shouldn't need to worry about backing it, or about the pin knots. Vine Maple tends to be pretty tough and forgiving stuff.
Thanks Andrew....I did some more floor tillering and fussing. I'm nearly ready to put a string to it.
With all the talent here, there has got to be some more vine-maple "experiences" from some of you!
Love to hear them.
Never worked vine maple but have wanted to ever since I saw some of John Strunk's VM bows. Good luck on your build Mark. Looking forward to seeing the final results plus your critique of the wood.
Thanks Pat. I figured you might be one who had tried some vine maple.
I have been treating it like a white wood bow, design-wise, as I should. I have also been a bit cautious given the dry climate here in MT in winter....hence the question about backing. I may do this to be on the safe side, we'll see. Although I've left this bow plenty wide and long.
Last nite I did a bit more tillering, and shortened the bow to 64" nock to nock, to remove a frustrating "deflexed" tip area. This still gives me plenty of length, and is actually my preferred length in a bow, so I'm happy.
As this bow wood is lighweight in mass, I'm taking the tillering slow. The wood works easily and yeilds easy to the tools. It is a lightweight mass, but still retains some toughness....not like a cedar or juniper. Not so soft that you would worry too much about dings or dents or crushing the fibers. Reminds me a lot of yew, I guess. (The few yew bows I've had the pleasure of making).
I did get a string on it, last nite, and have pulled it to half draw or a bit better, in working the wood while in final tiller stage. It is still quite heavy, easily in the mid-seventies to eighty pounds now, and I am hesitant to take it yet to full draw, as I want a bit more weight off it, and I am being cautious thuse far with removal of wood. Anyway, if all works out, I will try and post a pic or two over the weekend.
Ive only built a handful of decent bows.
Most of which have been vine maple.
It was my favorite tree before I discovered bow building.
I was elated to find it makes an excellent bow!
If a little tricky for a beginner...
I hear it doesnt like a real low MC, so tread lightly there.
Could have been Curt? Brisky that you got the stave from he is well known where I grew up (western WA) with vine maple bows. My dad has made a few vine maple bows. He left the bark on until he floor tillered them, but I don't think that it mattes much. he has had good success with heat treating the belly of the bows. Mark St.Louis is the name of the guy that does a lot of that. He is in Primitive Archery magazine a lot. TBB has some info. on heat treating that he wrote. You will probably need to get some moisture back into it to be safe. If you own a moiture meter, I think you want to be about 10-12% but that is from memory so it amy be off a little. Paul Comstock wrote a book on working with vine maple, The Bent Stick, I think it is called. You have to get a hold of him directly to get a copy. I can get the contact info from my dad if you want it. I have a stave out in my garage that I need to get started with. Let me know if I can be of more help.
Clayton
Thanks Scott and Clayton. I've read Gordon's threads a bit on his bows (did a search), cause he does some really excellent ones. He did some heat treating on his as well. Personally, dry heat is not one of my favorite "tools", and I think I'll pass on using it for now. I use it some to correct osage staves, but reluctantly...just my thing. Most of my bow "blowups" over the years have been a result or happened in areas where I have used heat, and I just don't care to apply it unless NOT using it will simply mean "no bow" in that particular stave. So then I have nothing to lose.
Moving on......
I did some more tillering and wood removal today. I should have been working on a cabinet project, but....
The bow shoots well, so far. All in all, at this stage, interms of quickness, I'd rate it as "good". It may improve with final wood reduction at the tips, and a bonafide string, etc. But it shoots a hard arrow, right where I look. It seems to have finished out aroung 70 lbs at my draw, of 271/2 inches. Right on target there. I put about 60 arrows through it so far, and am quite happy with it.
I am still debating a rawhide backing, but it probably isn't necessary. It has been aclimated for some years now, and if it was gonna blow, it probably would have already.
It started with about 2 inches of backset before final tillering and shooting, and now retains an inch plus of backset after unstringing. It is smooth, forgiving, and almost no handshock to speak of.
Here are a few pics I took to share with you.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v508/woodwizard/bowbuilds/vm1.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v508/woodwizard/bowbuilds/vm4.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v508/woodwizard/bowbuilds/vm12.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v508/woodwizard/bowbuilds/vm7.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v508/woodwizard/bowbuilds/vm10.jpg)
I am still final tillering a bit, mostly in the top limb, but it's minimal stuff. Then of course finish work, but all in all, I'm happy so far. It will make a fine hunting bow, I'm sure.
I hesitated to start this thread, as doing stuff like this "as it happens" could be a real jinxer, if you know what I mean! So here are the pics....it made a bow! I'll post more pics later of the finished product.
Great lookin bow Mark. Looks like the top limb is a little stiffer than the bottom, might be the angle in the pic though. Where does vine maple grow at? I'm in Oklahoma and I havent heard of it growin around here anywhere. Does it grow wild or is it an ornamental?
okie, I believe it grows in Oregon, maybe Washington state, wild.
Nice looking bow Mark! I want to try that vinemaple sometime too.
top limb is a bit stiffer than bottom.
but some ppl favor a stiffer top limb.
Good work...i've never even seen a vine maple tree but some day i'll make a vm bow
The top limb "appears" stiffer, but you have to be careful tillering a stave with whoopdi-do's and such. If you look in the pics (unstrung) you'll notice the upper limb (the one I am holding) has a deflex about mid-limb, followed by a reflex to the tip. The bottom limb deflexes midlimb, after a reflex (both limbs do this) coming out of the handle section.
While I could certainly tiller that out, doing so would cause that portion of the limb to "work" harder than the rest. It's an illusion that they are not doing so, but I try and get the wood bending evenly all the way, to make the bow "last"....just common sense tillering, but it does illustrate the challenges of tillering snaky and squiggly wood. Kind of like tillering a hybrid longbow top limb, and a D-style bottom limb....as an extreme example. Anyway that's what you're seeing there.
Many guys any more just heat things straight, and that's Okay, but as I've mentioned...and it's just me....I've got a thing about using heat, and think it does more damage at times than it's worth. I could be wrong, but my own history of experiences gives me the hunch I'm not. Again, not putting down the good results many have. Maybe I just don't have the talent or desire to "conquer" heating techniques. That, and I live in a bow-wood desert, so being conservative on my bow projects is in may nature!
Anyway, I have a long enough history of good results using my methods....and they work in the field for me. Plus, straightening out all the "characters" can take some of the mojo out of a selfbow, which is the fun stuff in many ways.
I did try and take some of that "stiffness" out after that pic. I think I've got it, and the balance of it shooting seems to be spot on, as hand shock is really minimal. I don't know, that could be a result of the wood, but it's light mass would seem to make handshock even more pronounce, and I'm just not feeling it, so I think I'm going to call it good for the most part. I do like to tiller the upper limb a bit lighter....about an eighth inch or so measured at the fades or just outside. I am going to add tip overlays, and do some staining/painting. Have'nt decided...so in the meantime I'll have fun "shooting her in".
Thanks for the help guys!
Mark, I have not built a lot of self bows but in building glass bows I have noticed that some bows just want to shoot best with a bit heavier top limb. I know its contrary to what should be but I also know its true. I just sent out a bow that I ended up tillering dead even , I usually tiller for a plus on the top limb. When I took pictures and checked the top limb looked stiff just like yours does. However that is were there was no vibration and it was where the bow wanted to shoot. Proof was when the new owner got the bow he said it shot like a dart and was spot on for him. Like you are saying I tiller to what that particular limb wants. Under these circumstances that the stave exhibits you have done a spectacular job in my opinion. Kudos to you sir.
God bless you all, Steve
I want to see her all dressed up to go out Mark! I build as you do, dont sweat the "rules". If the bow shoots good and feels good, then I guess rules are meant to be broken? Art brought up a good point a while back about ring thickness differing from end to end on one piece staves. Im sure it plays a part in tillering differences between upper and lower limbs. Anyway, I like your bow!
An update! This vine maple bow has indeed turned out to be a real shooter; quiet...fast...hard hitting....no hand-shock....and no string follow, after hundreds of shots thus far. It will become my #1 for the season this year. It is the bow in the left of the pics....the other is a similar sized and weight osage "trashwood" shooter, and another testament to the species as king of bowwoods IMO. Both bows are around 70 plus pounds, and as nice as any selfbows I've ever made. The osage is about 66 inches.
The finish on the vine maple is simply walnut oil stain, then accents with water based stain, and some acrylic paints. I have a preference for rattan wrapped grips....they are bombproof IMO, and I also utilize a leather rest, vs. a shelf....always have.
Tip overlays on the vine maple are bighorn sheep, and on the osage I used leather soaked with superglue. Thought you guys would like to see the "end" result here.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v508/woodwizard/bowbuilds/2011bows-1.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v508/woodwizard/bowbuilds/2011bows2.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v508/woodwizard/bowbuilds/2011bows3.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v508/woodwizard/bowbuilds/2011bows4.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v508/woodwizard/bowbuilds/2011bows5.jpg)
That turned out to be a great lookin bow Mark. :clapper:
Very nice Mark!
Well that is a good looking bow.
Wow! Outstanding! Thank you.
Bona
Your vine maple bow looks great, Mark and sounds like it performs well too. Will you post a full draw pic for us to see?
Thanks all....I'll see what I can do. I have a ton of work to get done before heading out after elk this Friday. I really wanted to get some new arrows done up as well, but time this summer has been at a premium, and I just could'nt get to it.
Great looking bows Mark. The paint accents added a nice touch.
No worries Mark. I saw fg pics earlier. Get your stuff ready and have a good elk hunt. I'll be heading to Colorado on Friday also to try again for an elk.
Very nice work!! Good luck with your hunt :)
Thanks and good luck all! If success with these graces my experiences, I'll be sure and post a couple pics for you.
Love both of them thanks for sharing!
><>
Glenn
Beautiful bows, Mark. Outstanding craftsmanship. The paint accents look great.
GREAT BOW MARK....i have to say beening from oregon that is the nicest vm wood i have seen most have noldes on them...most peolpe say vm is rookie wood..BUT,i have talked to GORDON about it and we both argee that there is no way its rookie wood with all the humps and bumps and squirrely grain..for others to know that vm grows in northern cali up thru western oregon-western washington and a small part of canada....later john
Like I said, it is my first with this wood, and I am impressed so far. I hope the dry climate here doesn't doom it's longevity! We'll see how the season fares.
Mark,
Thanks for putting that up for us. Well done.
Shoot straight at 'em.
Mark,
Lookin good.I have a selfbow of VM that a friend made for me and it is still goin strong in this dry Nv climate.
Mark, the Washington contingent that went to Mojam two or three years ago carrying with them a quantity of vine maple staves were Duane Spangler, Steve Meyer and Clinton Gault (along with his wife, Debbie).
You built a nice looking bow out of that shrub! Well done!
Cool project Mark. I enjoyed reading that. Both those bows turned out great. Good luck this year. :thumbsup:
Nice looking bow! I've heard of vine maple but wouldn't know it from a sugar maple to be honest. Looks like you will have one heck of a shooter though. I hope to see the finishing touches in time!
Very nice bow, Vine maple is a great bow wood and I like it almost as much as yew. As John stated it can be a callenge at times because it almost always has bumps and dips and dives to work with. It is tougher then juniper ad has great spring to it.
Again very nice work, especially for your first VM
That turned out nice Mark!
Mark, I got some VM from Keith Fairbairn (Treekiller member 917) at MOJam and you may have too. He is from Washington and only comes over every other year. He always brings yew, vine maple and rocks. Have only made one bow from it so far but it is good stuff.
Very nice bow you made - both of them.
Thought I'd update here. For me, a bow that hunts is a successful bow, and the vine maple bow has turned out to be a nice shooter. After a thousand or so shots, it's settled into around 65 -70 pounds, at my draw, I'd guess. At any rate, it hurls a heavy shaft with authority. I took this buck last week, making meat with it. Thought I'd share the news...for a grand finale of sorts on this thread.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v508/woodwizard/2011%20hunt%20pics/mb14.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v508/woodwizard/2011%20hunt%20pics/mb3.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v508/woodwizard/2011%20hunt%20pics/mb9.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v508/woodwizard/2011%20hunt%20pics/mb11.jpg)
Very cool, Mark! That has to be satisfying after the "fussing" (as you put it) to have a proven, huntable bow. I like the fades and deco on the back of the limbs.
Someday, I would like to learn how to make a self bow. Guess a shop would be in order. Where did I put that Powerball ticket? :banghead:
That's fantastic and inspiring. I've been watching this thread while managing to keep my mouth shut and it's been great.
This buck you've shown us motivates me to further my complete transition into hunting with traditional gear.
Thanks and good luck.
great project and a neat buck. Thanks for sharing
awesome way to go.
Thats real good Mark!
Mike
Way to go Mark! Nice buck!!
Awesome, Nice buck with self made self bow. What could be better!
From Stave to Bow to Buck... Don't get much better than that!!
Great job and thank you for the trip :)
:campfire:
One last deer to add to this year's bow success! I took this little buck on the last day of the season here....legal on my antlerless tag. This bow has certainly earned it's right to hang next to several of my other successful shooters.....Thanks again folks for following along, and good luck with your builds.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v508/woodwizard/2011%20hunt%20pics/d1.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v508/woodwizard/2011%20hunt%20pics/d4.jpg)
And here is one more fulldraw pic taken in October.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v508/woodwizard/2011%20hunt%20pics/untitled2.jpg)
that is great work mark to see that the vm worked out for you..i am hoping you will write about in primitive archer or tbm...thanks for sharing...john