I'm preparing to start my 2nd redoak board bow. The first one took on a fair amount of set(3"). How do I keep the limbs straight or is that even possible. I'm really hoping for a straight limbed Hill type 66 to 68" and finishing out aound 50#'s.
Please give me some ideas to accomplish this.
Thanks, Dave
Set happens! But 3" is a quite a bit. There are several reasons for a bow to take on excessive set.
-Poor Tillering
-Underbuilt bows, such as not making the bow wide enough or long enough.
-not lilely with a red oak board but wood that isn't dry enough.
If you can post a few pics of your bow. Unbraced side profile, front view and a full draw, we might be able to give you some pointers for that particular bow.
Very careful and patient tillering making sure that no part of the limb is overstrained. I havent worked with redoak that much but I would think it would be very difficult to make a redoak board bow that didnt take on any set at all. I have heated reflex into hickory bows after I got done tillering them and got the limbs back straight. Never tried it on redoak, so I'm not sure if that would work or not.
Glue a hickory back on it while its under 2-3" of reflex. It will likely be quite straight after shoot in and tillering.
With it being my first it was undoubtedly poor and hasty tillering. I have since made myself a tillering gizmo and am looking forward to trying again. Thanks for the info gentlemen.
Dave
@ okie and PD
Things like glued in reflex and heat treated reflex shouldn't be used as bandaids to reduce set from poor tiller IMO. They should be used as accesories to increase performance once a person has knowledge on how to properly design and tiller a bow. You are not doing yourself any favors if you are hiding excessive set with heat treating and glued in relfex.
I have never made a red oak board bow that shot in and stayed straight, even with extremely patient tillering and exercise. Come to think of it, I have never even seen a pic posted of a red oak board bow that was straight without some help from another material or heat. I would like to see one after a few thousand shots stay straight. And to say a backing, or heat is to hide poor tillering knowledge/ability is dead wrong and offensive IMO.
NTD, he asked for ways to keep the limbs straight. I didnt mean to heat-treat it to hide poor tillering. I have built hickory bows that took an inch or so of set but after heating an inch or two of reflex in the difference in the speed of the bow was very noticeable.
Sure the original question was about keeping a bow straight. But 3" of set is from a design flaw, not because the bow was unbacked. You and Okie jumped to Heat treat and back it. This will not fix his problem. Once he understands how to tiller the bow for minimal set and THEN adds heat or glued in relfex then it's a win. Until then adding heat or glued in reflex is only a bandaid.
You are right, a redoak or any wood bow without induced or natural relfex will experience string follow. Like I said set happens. I don't deny that. But the amount of set is the first issue, and it appears Dave understands that from his follow up post.
"And to say a backing, or heat is to hide poor tillering knowledge/ability is dead wrong and offensive IMO."
How funny, I never said that backing and heating is to hide poor tillering knowledge or ability.
I said it SHOULDN'T be used for that :knothead:
Like I said before I havent worked with redoak much so I guess I shouldve stayed out of this one. For all I knew 3" of set with redoak could have been normal.
Okie,
I'm not trying to be an ass and I'm sorry if I'm coming across that way. Heat treating and backing are all very good tools. But 3" of set is only normal if you are underbuilding your bows. One wood shouldn't take more set than another by default...but they might take more set than another wood if they aren't designed according to the abilities of that wood.
Dave may be well served to back or heat treat but he's only going to get the full benefits if he learns how to minimize set by designing and tilering properly. That's all I was trying to do was give him a fuller picture of his problem.
I dont know how well Dave tillered his bow, first one or not. I do know that a back will reduce set on a properly tillered bow. Thats what he asked, thats why I said it.
NTD, if you re read your first post then you will see that you said exactly that. Weather it is what you meant or not is besides the case, you said it,lol.
Hardway...maybe you should re-read my post
"Things like glued in reflex and heat treated reflex shouldn't be used as bandaids to reduce set from poor tiller IMO. They should be used as accesories to increase performance once a person has knowledge on how to properly design and tiller a bow. You are not doing yourself any favors if you are hiding excessive set with heat treating and glued in relfex."
They are called qualifiers Mike.
PD said that I claimed heat and glue relfex are to hide poor craftsmanship...I clearly DID NOT say that.
QuotePlease give me some ideas to accomplish this.
Assuming a 28" draw and a 8-10" non-bending handle area, you probably need to make your red oak bow 72" or so to achieve something that looks like a Hill bow. you'll still need to go 1-3/4"-2" wide I bet. The other alternative is make it thinner and wider at 68". I'd guess 3" at the fades will do it. You won't get a Hill style look though.
An even better alternative is to use a wood more in tune with that style and your goals. Red oak is fine for wide flatbows but not deep core longbows unless it is really long. Even then, you will get 2-3" of set I would wager. 3" isn't bad for your first bow by the way.
I think what this boils down to is the fact that after you gave your two cents which is worth as much as anybody elses two cents, you "corrected" others. Thats the part I didnt care for. Maybe it would be okay to just throw your change in the pile with everybody else's and call it good? Let the person asking the question do his/her own sifting. Your knowledge on bow building is a great help Nate, but please dont discredit others in the meanwhile. There is always more than one way to perceive a question, and certainly more than one way to build a bow "right".
Guys, take yor bickering to PMs. You aren't helping here.
Didn't intend to throw rocks at a hornets nest and get things stirred up...let's make sure I'm on the same page as you fellas... do not under build bow, proper tillering and exercise, add backing at 2" or so at reflex and/or heat in some reflex...understand that there MAY be SOME set even if all this is done correctly... sound about right?
My first board bow shoots well, however the amount of set is what I'm trying to eliminate and keep the straight (as possible) limb profile. Thanks to all for your suggestions...now let's all take a breath :pray:
Dave
Nothing you did Dave. My sincere apologies for the bickering, its well out of character for me. Your list above is dead on. And yes, you will get some set from an unbacked bow built "perfectly".
Sounds good! And John was right about a first bow being pretty danged good with only 3" of set. My first bow was probably closer to 6"
Thank you John, I have no problem leaving the bow at 72" if it will give me the desired effect and profile....and still shoot well :bigsmyl:
Thank you all men...let's go work up some wood!!
Dave
Dave,
If you're using a tiller stick, that can give more set than using a tiller tree. Holding a wood bow at full draw for more than a few seconds will induce more set.
The fact that your first bow survived and is still shooting means you did good.
Here's another angle to consider. You say that your goal is to reduce set, but I believe the truth is you're trying to reduce string follow. They CAN be manifest as the same thing, but they're two different occurrences. Let's assume you start with a dead-flat board bow and end up, after tillering and shooting in, a bow that follows the string by 2". Thus, you have two inches of set and two inches of string follow (in this case, manifest as the same thing). However, if you heat 2" of reflex into the board, and then after tillering and shooting it in arrive at a dead-flat profile, you still have 2" of set but zero string follow. Like was mentioned about, set happens. Even glass bows will take a touch of set, even if in the most minute amount. You're straining material in both compression and tension, and something must settle.
Here's a red oak board bow I made for a friend. I heated 2" of reflex in and arrived at a flat unstrung profile immediately after unstringing and just a touch of reflex after settling back. So, to the original question, yes you can achieve a dead-flat profile on a red oak board bow. But NO, you can't avoid set.
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Bow%20for%20Ryan%20Means/HPIM4475.jpg)
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Bow%20for%20Ryan%20Means/HPIM4488.jpg)
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Bow%20for%20Ryan%20Means/HPIM4495.jpg)
(http://i984.photobucket.com/albums/ae321/isaacscr/Bow%20for%20Ryan%20Means/HPIM4492.jpg)
Nice rig Curt
Dave, a pyramid bow like 4est's above is a good design to try, works real well for red oak. That said, give the hill style a whirl and post lots of pics, if it works would love to try one myself.
Nice pyramid bow there 4est, you should have done a build-along on one like that. hahaha :)
John,
What would be a better choice of wood for a hill style board bow. Are there any common board woods that would be better suited to this design.
Hickory or pecan, white oak would be the ones I would recommend. Still be best to start with some reflex and at least 68" and 1-1/2" with good hickory or 70" and 1-3/4" with white oak.
Thanks John, got a handle on a local flooring place that does hickory. trying to contact to find out about supply. Could be a real good thing.
Dave, enjoy your bow. My first had 5 in. of set. What is your raw length? Jawge
John, great response and great information as always. I built a 62" hickory backed, walnut and black cherry multi-lam, hill style bow. Because of using nothing but wood, I glued in 1-1/2" of reflex to avoid set & string follow. The bow gets some set and it's because it's just plain too short. I realized this as I began the tillering process. I can't exactly explain why I knew it then, but it was rather obvious to me. I have since built another of the same lam combinations and changed the length to 68" and it came out just as I had originally had hoped.
Good stuff here gentlemen. Thanks to all who have responded. Jawge, on the first bow the raw length is 66". Grip and fades are full 1 and1/2" wide. Tips are 1/2" and I lightly tapered up the limbs toward the riser 10" and if I remember correctly that measurement was 1". In hindsight the tips and taper MAY(?) have made them a little weak. At any rate I'm looking forward to using the gizmo on the next try.Positive it will make tillering more consistant than my old 4 eyes.
Dave
What's your draw length?
29 and 1/4
Dave,
That's a pretty long draw length compared to mine (28"). You may want to consider going longer than 68"...
Eric,
Thanks for the input. I certainly have no problem going longer...thinking about 70". Probably going with that and givin it a go.
Dave
Dave, LOL, pardon my typing. I was asking for your draw length. I see it is 28 in with glass but probably less with a selfie. Practice will decrease set on your bows. Don't worry about it! Enjoy your bow. You first bow is not going to be like a Scifres bow. I tell beginners to back with burlap, silk or linen. Back your first few for safety. I've never used a wood backing and don't plan to. Don't enjoy it. Anyway, my site has info regarding how I tiller and has buildalongs. I haven't changed much over the years. LOL. I'm a pretty primitive guy. Just ask my wife and daughters. Questions welcomed. Gotta go.Jawge
I see. It is 29 in. That was mine with a recurve. I draw 26 in to back of handle with a selfbow. I remember I tillered my first to 28 in and was quite surprised to draw 26 in. LOL. Jawge
Considering all of this great info.... Thanks y'all... another question. Supposing I'd like to try about 2" of reflex...how do you go about heating a redoak board to achive this? ie, what type of heat, where to heat, before or after rough in, how to know when enough or too much, etc.
Sorry for all the inquires...wanting to get better each build.
Dave
If you have TBB4, theres a whole chapter on it in there written by Marc St. Louis. It pretty much explains everything about heat-treating. I do mine with a heat gun with the bow clamped in a reflex form made from a 2x6 with a smooth arc in it. I tiller mine all the way out to draw length and weight and then do the heat-treating.
Thanks okie
Dave