This is my first true osage self bow from stave. Its a 2# short of my target weight in this photo, and 4.5" short of my draw. I have plenty of tinker room. I have a slight twist that I am working out with heat. Let me know what you think of the tiller so far.The left limb is my bottom, its 1 1/2" shorter. Be nice Roy Boy! (http://i1129.photobucket.com/albums/m518/chrislovesjean/000_0152.jpg?t=1299627514) Thanks for any and all input.
Well, I don't really know. But thanks for the pics so far,lol. But really, She looks alot better today than she did on Saturday. Did you get a heat gun? Or did you come up with another source of heat? Keep us posted.
your fades look different. the right limb in the pic looks like its bending more. is this an equal length limb bow? outer limbe on the right looks a little stiff. just what i see. ruddy
Left limb is 1.5" shorter Ruddy.
After looking at it again, the right limb does look like it is bending more. But remember what I said about the crooked eyes.
Maybe after a bow or two breaks and whops you between the eyes it will straighten 'em out Mike? HAHAHAHAHA!
Pearl Drums, Make a gizmo man!!! And get those inner limbs working.
I use one Nate, love it! I purposely left the inner 12" somewhat alone. I am trying the mid limb curve tiller I read about it TBM this issue. He mentioned getting the mids moving good, then the inners and lastly the tips if they need it. I have plenty of room to go as far as draw wt and length.
Hmm, never read TBM so don't know about that article. I've never heard about that method either. Personally I always try to get my tiller picture as early as possible, hopefully at Brace Height, and then remove wood evenly from both limbs until I hit my preferred draw weight and length. It doesn't always work that way but that's what I shoot for.
Who wrote the article?
I've seen better kids bows on here Pearl:) LOL
The left limb looks real nice, the right limb is flat outside the fades. Never heard of the tiller method you speak of.
They were probably mine too ol' fart! I see what your saying. It still amazes me how pics can be so much easier to read than standing there staring at the real deal.
I see the same thing as Roy does Pearl, a little flat just outside the fades, but it's looking real good! Yours looks nearly identical to the one I'm working on. Left limb good, right limb needs a little nudge.
I'd like to get a tad bit more arc in my limbs like yours, but I've got a little ways to go yet. I haven't even pulled my to the target draw length yet to see what kind of poundage I got there.
I'd just fix that flat area on the right and you may be good to go?
Really great start, especially since it's your first stave bow. But I have to agree with NTD. I've also never heard of that method but wouldn't trust it. It doesn't make very much sense to me. I can understand not wanting to overstress the fades so that undue set isn't manifested at the tips. However, this method seems to be overstressing the inner third of the limb, which will lead to undue localized set...or worse. Getting the entire limb to work nicely together as early as possible is one of the fundamental keys to combating set.
The bulk of the work is being done by the near center of each limb in your picture (more tipward on the left limb, near dead center on the right limb). You're approaching a hinge in both of those locations, especially if you've got 4.5" to go. Catch the inner third of each limb up with the rest of the limb and you'll reach a fine tiller.
My only concern is that flat spot is a knot I have avoided for the most part, its the only one on the whole bow. Its a nice piece of wood. I have a Mystic scraper so I could use the curved end to clean up around the knot some.
even though your bottom limb is shorter you still need to keep your limbs bending evenly. The shorter limb will still be stiffer cause it's shorter.
If anything You might want the bottom moving an 1/8" less. right now it looks like it's moving about an inch less. Other than that looks good.
Stiks
So if he needs to get the left limb to bend more to "catch up" to the right limb should he be taking a little off from the fade out to mid limb on the left limb?
Pearly, always include pics of the unbraced side/back of the bow so we can properly judge braced/drawn profile. Without that, we're just guessing at best.
Sorry guys, but you fellows really need to get rid of that grid system for these self bows. What you're seeing now all changes when you actually draw the bow by hand.......Art
I dunno stiks, I've made a lot of bows with a shorter lower limb and with a tiller of what I want, the lower limb lags anywhere from a half to an inch behind the top limb. But that's how I was taught.
How's this Pearly Boy?
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/apearl.jpg)
I agree with Roy. It also helps to use a radiused block so it will more closely mimic your hand. Set that radius right on the midpoint of the bow. I use a piece of rolled up leather with some give also.
(http://hedgerowselfbows.webs.com//photos/Blank-to-Bow/tillertree.jpg)
Pearl, that looks terrible, put a leather wrap on the handle and send it to me for immediate disposal. I dont want to get any on my hand! Just kidding, you don't have to send the wrap! Hahaha. Looking good bro. As shown above I dont think I would work that spot on the right limb anymore, just a little more on the outer limb and a little more on the lower. Looks good though. I'll pm my address incase you give up on it.
How come you didn't doodle on my bow pictures Roy? Is Pearly more special than me?
I think my feelings are hurt now. :D
Ya Semo, Pearly Boy is Special alright:) He's one of those that ya gotta take by the hand and lead him along. Heck by the looks of it, he can't even find his way back to this thread:)
Is that one of those fire starting bows?? :campfire:
Now that you mention it Roy it kind of makes sense I reckon. Please do explain. I;m always up for learning all I can.
Might explain why all my self bows shoot better three under.
Stiks, with a shorter lower limb, it will react as being stiffer than the longer top limb. As it should react. So the longer top limb is going to bend down more at the tips than the shorter lower limb at the tips. Plus we tiller for a positive tiller on the top limb, meaning it will be bending a tad more than the lower limb.
I got the inners bending nicely after soem advice and seeing the pic, it didnt take much to get them going. Roy Boy I wrote "NO" several scrapes ago on the areas you said to leave alone. One is a knot and the other is just right already. I still have 2.5" to my draw length. This was a good thread, half of us agreed it needed a tweak and the other half said it was ready to blow! Thats why we ask isnt it? Thanks for all the feedback averybody. I will take a few pics tonite when I get home for session II.
Atta boy.
I like the bend to start at the fades and then gradually increase toward the tips. PD most of the bend is happening the last foot or so. That is known as a whip tillered bow. You may feel the bow stack or get harder to pull the last few inches. Jawge
I like the bend to start at the fades and then gradually increase toward the tips. PD most of the bend is happening the last foot or so. That is known as a whip tillered bow. You may feel the bow stack or get harder to pull the last few inches. Jawge
....There is no bend that last 12 inches or so....this is definitely NOT a whip tiller. The bend is nearly all mid limb George...
Put yer glasses on George:)
I was thinking the same NTD, Roy. But I dont have the experince to question Jawge....the man has built a few over the years.
LOL. Ok very slightly whip tillered then. :) Jawge
PD, you can question me. I don't care. It is slightly whip tillered. But it is fine if that is the tiller you like. I don't because well...I don't like'em too long. Jim Hamm makes them like that but he makes them long to counteract the stacking. Jawge
The bow is 65 long, 63 NTN. I dont know how it could have happened? The tips are the thickest part of the limb right now. They havent been touched since rough in happened. I learned too many hard lessons about messing with the tips. It still has about an 1" of natural reflex unbraced, it started with about 3 - 3 1/2".
QuoteOriginally posted by George Tsoukalas:
LOL. Ok very slightly whip tillered then. :) Jawge
Good call George.
A couple of thoughts here Pearl.
Folks have kinda run away with this longer/shorter limbs thingy. Torges popularized this concept I believe. But some fail to take into account his handle style (bulbous) and the way he grips his bow. If you like that style handle, grip a bow as he does, then one might do fine with building and shooting a bow as he does.
Ask yourself this Pearl, if the lower limb is going to receive the tighter radius once hand drawn, why would you want to make it's radius even more tighter by shortening it. For the type bow you're building, I would reccomend shortening your upper limb to match the lower. But that just my personal opinion of course.....Art
I shoot 3 under as well. I was thinking that would offset the shorter bottom limb, and I could even tiller the bow rather than make my upper stronger as I usually do. I can take any length off the upper because of my lengthy draw. I think the bow needs to stay at 63" ntn.
And one more detail. I do make bulbous-straight grips....love 'em! It may not be a perfect bow when its all said and done, but it will shoot as good as I do! Heck when the day comes I make a perfect bow I woudl be satified, I dont want that to happen because thats what drives me to make a better one next time.
It's all about enjoying the journey Pearl Drums. Good luck on yours........Art
I kinda look at it a little different. I make them that way because I believe the limb starts at the fulcrum. In that light, the limbs are about the same length.
Torges' point, I think, was that for greater balance, you start at the balance point. Now different grips definitely influence this and it is really easier to tiller equal limb bows so the argument has merit. But I have found that Dean's theories hold true in my practice. Since I have relied on the fulcrum principle, my bows are smoother shooting, and fall into tiller more easily. Intuitively, it just matches my brain better.
That being said, on bows over 62" I doubt it really makes a bit of difference and I have had equal success with both styles. The shorter the bow, though, the more critical it becomes.
The way I see it, ideally, we would have the center of our grip pressure at the center of the bow. We would have the arrow launch from the center of the bow. As a correlation, we would have our nock point and the center of our string-hand pressure in the center of the string. (Think about string loops on compound bow strings. Don't they straddle the nock point?) Now since not all that stuff can't happen exactly, we have to compromise.
I think that's also why I have grown to love short, narrow osage bows that bend in the handle. The simplest design to make is probably the best for me. I guess the K.I.S.S. principle applies here too.
What John said.
This my first shorter bottom limb bow and I can already see it is going to balance in my hand better. I shoot straight-bulbous handles with a slighty "broke" wrist, most of the pressure is on the true center of the bow, not the middle of the grip as a centered handle would be. I have noticed on the my other bows with equal limbs that when I draw my bottom limb wants to pull back first. Im very curious to see how this one feels in my hand, we shall see VERY shortly! If I odnt care for it, I will build another! Good info guys, thanks
I have always made my bows like Torges does and they do balance very nicely in the hand. But one of these days I intend to make a bow with equal length limbs to see how that goes.
I guess Art isn't out of bed yet, or he's sitten in the kitchen in his jammies eating corn flakes cereal:)
(Gagging here)
Who in there right mind would eat horse feed for breakfast Boy. If you were worth your salt you'd be having deer steak and eggs for breakfast too: :D
Hey old man, make that same length limb bow with a stronger "upper" limb as Mr Dean advocates and see how that works out for you ;) .......Art
I was on Roys team, but you got me with the horse feed thing Art! I prefer steak and eggs myself!
I never seen Mr. Dean advocate a stronger upper limb. And why make a stronger upper limb and then take wood off it to get a positive tiller? But if he did advocate the stronger upper limb, then I guess the lower limb being shorter and thus stronger would balance it out? :)
Now I'd like to see pictures of some of your Bows Art. Belly, back, side, handle, unbraced, braced, and full draw. Fugger I might learn something from that Ole Boy:)
QuoteOriginally posted by Roy from Pa:
I never seen Mr. Dean advocate a stronger upper limb. And why make a stronger upper limb and then take wood off it to get a positive tiller? But if he did advocate the stronger upper limb, then I guess the lower limb being shorter and thus stronger would balance it out? :)
Now I'd like to see pictures of some of your Bows Art. Belly, back, side, handle, unbraced, braced, and full draw. Fugger I might learn something from that Ole Boy:)
:readit: Here's an excerpt Roy from Dean's article "Tillering the Organic Bow"
"No," you may reply. "It is simpler to make same-limb bows and let the process help you decide which limb should be which." Such a sentiment ignores the distinction between simple and easy. It can be easier to make a same-limb bow, but only if you ignore the sliding fulcrum, if you already have your mind made up that you're upper limb should be the weaker one, if you don't mind keeping a relay of staves moving through the hotbox, one waiting to take the place of its failed predecessor, or if you suffer from BADD bad, unable to shoot a new bow long enough to reveal its flaws because there's another one that needs built and shot. Or if you flip the bow exactly the opposite from what you were told, making the slightly stiffer limb the upper one.
Sur air a demanding ol' cuss ain't you! Got no other need or desire to be anything other than helpful to you fellows :wavey: .......Art
So Dean does like a shorter bottom limb bow. Mine is now tillered in a few pounds heavy and I have shot it 30-40 times now. It shoots very hard and feels balanced to me. I have zero complaints. Just pray it stays together long enough to get some skins and finish on it! I will get some fresh "discussion" pics up tomorrow afternoon.
I have found that sometimes a fulcrum tillering job results in a slightly "negative" tiller at brace. Does that mean it's unbalanced? I think why I like the fulcrum concept is that it meshes with my intuition about making bows. It just seems to fit. I never had the brain power to resolve my internal conflict with measuring tiller at brace and calculating where the handle should be and where the string hand should be...
With this method, you pull at the center of the string and rest your handle on the fulcrum. All other things are irrelevant to me.
We all do things a little different John but we seem to make it work for ourselves. But there in lies the problem. We need a standard to where we can convey to others how and why things work the way they do. Dean's article, at least to me , just mudded the waters.
The vast majority of us use a positive tiller, very few a slightly stiffer upper limb I've noticed. I understand very well why both are needed. But when folks ask about limb length, arrow passes and grips we need a simple explaination that ALL can undestand. I'm in no way bashing Dean, love the old man to death, just wish he could write to where I don't how to read his articles fortenth times to get the meaning. I'm simple minded you know......Art
I'm simple minded you know......Art
Well there it is Sports Fans:) LMAO
Ok, let us take this one more step down the ladder. Dean advocates placing the tillering tree pull rope to the right of the handle, more in line where our hand will be when pulling the bow. I do also. John, I see you pull the bow from the center of the handle on the tree.
What's ya got to say about that Ole Timer from WV? LOL
Night, going to bed... I tired.. Ole Timer from Pa.
"Dean advocates placing the tillering tree pull rope to the right of the handle, more in line where our hand will be when pulling the bow."
You only shoot your bows with one hand Roy? What you use the other one for? Art
I watched one of Deans DVD's last night, (thanks Roybert!) I see it like this, there is no one right way to build a bow as long as you tiller it correctly with the pattern you choose. If you build a shorter bottom limb bow then tiller accordingly. If you build and even length limbed bow, then tiller it accordingly. Stim Wilcox said a vast majority of his experinece is with same length limb bows, BUT he thinks a shorter bottom limb will lessen hand shock most times? He even suggested moving the handle up and down the bow to find the best spot for it. I guess it boils down to following tiller rules for the specific style you choose. I cant lie, if this bow holds up I doubt I will build very many equal length bows anymore. I like the way it feels in my hand as I draw. And it shoots as good as my equal length counterparts. Roy and Art, I got ahold of the UFC and they agreed to a non-sanctioned "Ol' Farts" bout sometime in late May and be Free per View! Start gettin' in shape guys! HAHAHAHAHAHA!
LOL Pearly..
Morning Art..
52 degrees yesterday, 3 inches of snow today and more on the way. Think I'll head out to the bow shop and play bowyer:)
Some of what you say about the shorter lower limbed bows producing less hand shock has merit Pearly. But have you considered the why? Art
Morning Roy :coffee: ! Art
Cant lie Art, the "why" doesnt concern me. Its the the feel and performance that matters to me.
Let me rephrase that, it sounded rude. The "why" interestes me, but its the way my mind and hands work.
Ok I'll bite ole timer.
WHY? :)
I use a symmetrical design on my bows because I can see good tiller better. While on the tree I pull from the center and keep the bottom limb a bit stiff(nothing measured). When I see a pic of myself at full draw the tiller looks even to me and I guess that is my hand compensating for the difference. I have a hard time understanding things that are too complicated so I do things that work for me and so far they work. Don't ask me why, I can't explain other than "just cause"!
I got a lot from Deans book and his other writings but I have to read it over and over for it to sink. His writing style is hard for me to follow. Some of what he writes I don't go along with because I have had different results but that goes not only for Dean but other's writings too.
Some of you may say that all you want from your bows is for them to "feel" right and perform well. Nothing wrong with that.
But what about the bows you gift to friends. Or perhaps sell. Lots of trade bows going out I've noticed. Don't you want these bow to feel right and perform well for the new owners? Makes me wonder just how well those past trade bows fared.
I was gifted a nice Osage bow some years ago, and because at the time, I didn't understand proper grip per layout, limb timing and what not, I pulled the bow's tiller out in 6 shots. That's when it dawned on me that I was doing something wrong.
Hey Roy, it's all about the journey ol' Bud, you want me to carry you all the way! Art
No Art, I'll slow down and wait for ya to catch up son:)