Here's a bow I'm working on for a friend whos on another website. I'm using Eric's gizmo for the first time ever on a bow and so far I really like it. I've managed to keep the limbs real nice and flat by taking off the high spots as the gizmo indicates. I want this bow to be tillered as near perfect as possible, so before I go any further I'm going to let you all access my progress thus far.
Here's an unstrung pic first and this bow has one of the nicest unstrung profiles of any bow I have had the pleasure of building so far. Nice and straight with a bit of natural reflex.
(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww146/mohunter68/BowtilleringMarch-BillsBow001.jpg)
Next pic is where I am at right now. I think I'm pretty even throughout, but still need to get the limbs moving some more I believe. I'm still on the long string and not real sure if I should get some more movement before going to the short string, or just choke up the long string??
Be nice, but please be honest. :D Thanks.
(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww146/mohunter68/BowtilleringMarch-BillsBow008.jpg)
She looks pretty good to me. It is about time for a short string and low brace.
From the picture my eye is saying the right limb is bending just a little more. Putting the short string on with a low brace should show if that is true.
Ron
Better than mine! How is that for critique SEMO?
I'd put it on a short string with about a 4" brace and see what it looks like.
With a long string you want the fade area to bend more and keep the outer half of the limb stiff. Cause when you go to the short/permanent string (string angle changes here) the inner part of the bow will flatten out while the outer half with come round.
We need a back profile pic to determine correct tiller.
Left limb the stump end of your bow?......Art
It looks ready for the short string. Looks good. Jawge
Right limb is bending more than the left mostly at midlimb. Even them up and get that near handle wood working more before you string it. But you are real close.
Thanks guys, that's kinda what my thoughts were also and the right limb is the weaker limb, the left one has been stiffer from the beginning. So good eyes to all who caught that.
That's why I wanted your honest opinions, sometimes my eys will see what they want to see and not what's actually there.
Will be back later with new pics when I get it worked down some more.
Ok I got it on the short string, and it's a bit shorter than I really wanted at the moment, but I took it easy stringing it and came out with a 7" brace ht. to the back of the grip.
Here it is strung, and the short string does reveal some things that you cannot see on the long string as you can tell from the pic. I've got a problem area in the right limb just beyond the fade. Looks a bit flat there.
What do you all see?
(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww146/mohunter68/BowtilleringMarch-BillsBow017.jpg)
Here it is at 17" of draw. Right side still flat looks like to me from middle to fade and last 1/3 of the tip maybe?
(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww146/mohunter68/BowtilleringMarch-BillsBow018.jpg)
Finally here is the unstrung profile after about 5 min. of being strung. It took just a bit of set during that time. So what if anything can be done to prevent this? Just minimize the amount of time it's strung until the final tillering is complete?
(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww146/mohunter68/BowtilleringMarch-BillsBow019.jpg)
I put the bow scale on it for the first time while it was strung and only pulled it to 23" because that's as far as it has been so far. It pulls 35# @23" and my goal wt. is 50# @29" does that sound completely doable?
Thanks for looking.
Art- Here are the pics of the back that you asked for. If you need a different angle or something let me know and I'll get those for ya.
Thanks for the advice, all is much appreciated and welcomed.
This end had a little snaky wiggle to it, this always makes me nervous trying to follow the snake in the grain because I'm scared to death of getting a splinter in these areas if I don't do it right.
So far so good though, knock on wood! :knothead:
(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww146/mohunter68/BowtilleringMarch-BillsBow032.jpg)
Here's the other end and it's as straight as a yard stick, but the tips do have a bit of twist opposite each other. The good thing is that the string tracks perfectly true through the center of the handle area. I guess that means I'm getting better at laying out the profile...huh?
(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww146/mohunter68/BowtilleringMarch-BillsBow031.jpg)
I see the same thing on the right you do. I can also see it at brace by the tiller from side to side, it looks wider on the left side? Your only a few scrapes off. Listen to me babble.... I started my own "hows it look thread" because I cant tell!
The right limb is bending too much where it is circled Chris. Take wood off to the left of it first, then off the right of it if needed. Use that gizmo, pull the string down to say 15 inches and lock it down, then run the gizmo up the limb. That will tell you everything. Heck just use the gizmo at the brace and it will mark where you need wood removed.
(http://i47.photobucket.com/albums/f165/ROY-CHRIS/BowtilleringMarch-BillsBow017.jpg)
Yep, that's what I see too. I need to get that fade moving a bit more on the right and I think it may be real close then?
I'll wait and see what some of the "Grey Beards" have to say too...LOL :thumbsup:
Like I said before, it's a good thing to have extra pairs of eyes to take a look because sometimes I either can't see it, or don't want to see it? I also see things in the pics that I can't see when I'm looking at it on the tillering tree.
Thanks for the extra eyeballs everybody!
Thanks Roy, that's what I've been doing and that spot you have circled was heavy before the last sanding, so I think I hit it a bit too much? I'm using the palm sander at this point and you wouldn't think it could ever take too much off, but it will if you aren't careful.
I hope I've got enough poundage left before I hit my target wt. to fix that and still be good. I'll gizmo that spot and take it easy this time.
Should I leave the left side alone, or wait and see what I got after fixing the right side?
Thanks!
I'll wait and see what some of the "Grey Beards" have to say too...LOL
LOL, you calling me, Pat, and Art old? :)
I would get the right limb looking better first. As you remove wood from the right limb, the left limb is going to get stronger, hence flatter.
I promise that spot will have the biggest gap on the gizmo, so back your pencil tip off the belly say maybe 1/8th to start, then run the gizmo up and down the entire limb, paying more attention to the area just outside the fade.
QuoteOriginally posted by Roy from Pa:
I'll wait and see what some of the "Grey Beards" have to say too...LOL
LOL, you calling me, Pat, and Art old? :)
I mean that in a respectful, friendly way as in I trust your ageful wisdom.....along with Pat and Art too of course. :campfire:
I understand:) I think I'm the pup when we talk about Art and Pat:) LOL
QuoteOriginally posted by Roy from Pa:
I understand:) I think I'm the pup when we talk about Art and Pat:) LOL
Me too, in my mind I'm still in my late 20's early 30's, but my body feels like it's got another 25 years on it than that.
You must be feeling better Roy! Could use some of those special pills myself :goldtooth:
Hey at least y'all have hair to get gray!
SEMO: I like the snake on one limb and straightness of the other. Slick profile!
Really flat at the handle particularly on the right. Brace height is a bit high. Go with about 5" for now if you can. You will probably miss weight with this one. I'd guess mid 40s when you get her right.
What is this gizmo you speak of? I'm about to start tillering my first bow tomorrow and anything to make it easier would be awesome.
Thanks for all the advice, observations, and info spiked with humor guys. I sure appreciate it.
Art - Right now it's rectangular with only the edges of the limbs rounded to prevent splinters. If that helps any. I had planned to just leave the profile like that and basically just smooth all the square edges, but still your basic rectangular limb profile.
TimB - Here's the fabulous Gizmo that we speak of, created by our own Eric Krewson. So simple, yet masterful in the ways of bow tillering ingenuity. :thumbsup:
http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=125;t=001047
QuoteOriginally posted by John Scifres:
Really flat at the handle particularly on the right. Brace height is a bit high. Go with about 5" for now if you can. You will probably miss weight with this one. I'd guess mid 40s when you get her right.
Thanks John, and that's exactly what I was thinking myself. I need to get the fades moving some more. If I hit high 40's that would be ok too, and I could always nibble a bit of the tip of each limb if I need to. I actually left it a bit long for that reason. That would also bring my brace ht. down without making a new string. Somehow I came out about an inch short? I dunno what the heck happened there. :rolleyes:
Whoa...outa my leage with that stick Chris. Here is what I "see" though. The left limb looks just a touch stiffer in all the pics, but it looks like a very nice bend.
I think you might need to visit it after you get the right one sorted out.
I must be crazy commenting here at all, but that's just what I see.
I hope I last long enough at this to look at a stick like that and say to it "wanna shoot some arras? Hold still this won't hurt a bit"
Ditto what John said. The gizmo is awesome, but won't really help you at the fades. Get her bending more there and do lower that brace height.
Jeff- All and everyone's observations are welcome in any of my threads. Especially when I'm asking for opinions. More eyes the better.
Osage ain't outta your league man, if you can tiller that hickory bow you can build you one outta Osage no problem. It's a very forgiving wood if you work it right and take your time.
I plan to get a little more bend in the fades and a bit more arc overall, then I believe I'll call it good. Don't want to take too much more off and lose my draw wt.
Curt- Yes, I may end up undoing and retwisting my braids on my flemish string to let it out another inch. I'm usually pretty good about hitting the exact length I want, but for some reason I must have been in a hurry or had my head up my arse when I made this one. Cause I missed it by a full inch. I thought it would stretch or be able to let some of the twist out, but it's just too short. Worst case I'll just make a new one and save this one for another bow. No biggie.
Thank you Chris. Very nice things to say. I hope to get confident enough to work with a stave at some point, much less the venerable Osage.
Thanks again.
Jeff
Art - Right now it's rectangular with only the edges of the limbs rounded to prevent splinters. If that helps any. I had planned to just leave the profile like that and basically just smooth all the square edges, but still your basic rectangular limb profile.
Boy, this wide screen is worse than I thought. Sure looks like a straight side taper from fade to tip on your bow Semo. Perhaps you meant rectangular "cross section"? Art
The only advise I could give is to slow down a bit on your wood removal. Those hingy spots show up when you get aggressive with your scraper.
Now you got me confused Art. It is a straight edge profile from fade to tip, one continuous gradual taper from 1 1/4" to 3/4" from fade to tip. The limb profile from the sides is flat with the edges rounded, make sense?
Eric- I've been using the palm sander since I started taking the pics, but I'm using 150 grit sandpaper so I may need to downsize the paper or just not hit it quite as long? I only scraped until I got an even bend in both limbs then switched over to the palm sander. It appears and feels nice and flat now, but I need to put the gizmo on it again. Hopefully I'll have some progress to post this afternoon.
Then you have a pyramidal limb design Semo. With a rectangular limb cross section.
A true pyramid limb design would only need it's side taper to produce the proper braced/drawn profile. Belly thickness would be the same from fade to tip. Since yours isn't a true pramidal design your limbs would still require a slight belly taper.
A cross section view of your limb would be like looking into the end of your limb and taking note of it's shape...Art
Semo, put 220 grit on the palm sander. The 150 is what got you in trouble.
I put the gizmo on mine every time I do anything to it. Remember, work the whole limb, don't isolate spots.
Another thing I do is put the bow on the scale and see where the target weight is. When I get to the target weight at 20", I pull the bow to 20" about 30 times on the tree then shoot it a dozen times or more drawn to about 20" between each scraping. From then on I mix tree pulling and shooting as I ease the target weight to the desired draw length.
Nothing registers a change in tiller from a good scraping like the snap of the limbs on a shot.
Someone once posted I was way off for stating you need to shoot a bow during the tillering process to register wood changes, they said tree flexing was enough. Don't guess they had made as many bows as I have.
Your not the only one that does it that way Eric. The Ferret Board bow plans that started me on this journey years ago said to do the same thing. How many times have we read about a tiller changing after shooting it a few times once it was "finished"?
Ok here's an update. I sanded down the high spots and did a little more work on the fades.
How you like me now?
I still see a bit of a flat spot on the right side fade........does anybody else see the same thing? I don't want to take much more off if I don't have to or I'll lose my target wt.
Thanks for looking.
First is the strung pic and I did let my string out about an inch and got the brace height down to 6" from the handle. It looks better now I think and looks about right to me.
(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww146/mohunter68/BowtilleringMarch-BillsBow033.jpg)
Next is 2 pics of the bow drawn to 24" and I have shot it out to full draw. About 15 shots in between tillering. So far so good.
The second pic in the series is the same pic just holding the camera up higher to get more of a straight on shot at the bow in the draw position. I'm getting a shadow under the limbs that can be decieving. My lighting in the garage sucks.
(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww146/mohunter68/BowtilleringMarch-BillsBow034.jpg)
(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww146/mohunter68/BowtilleringMarch-BillsBow035.jpg)
Still have that hinge in the middle of the right limb. I am sure the gizmo will point the weak spot out. The left limb looks mighty good.
Yeah, that area outside the right fade is still stiff Chris. What's going to happen when you draw your bow by hand is that the lower limb is going to round out more and the flat spot will become flatter......Art
So I need to get that right fade moving more don't I? That's what I was seeing also.
I didn't hit that area but just very little before these pics, so I know about how much it should take to get that bending like the other one. Be back later with more pics when I get done working with it.
Thanks guys!
Don't touch anything else except that right side near handle. Here's the right and left limbs together. Make the right (top in the pic) look like the left.
(http://sticknstring.webs.com/photos/2011-Pictures/semo.jpg)
Wow, that's a cool trick John......you gotta tell me how you did that. That's got to be an awesome tool for tillering a bow and knowing if you have the limbs even with each other. One limb transposed on top of the other, I'd have never thought of that.
Thanks!
You shoot split finger?
Oops, let me back up here! From the looks of your string serving I believe the right limb is your bottom limb, right? If so, then I would have to flip-flop what I mentioned early. Took it that the left limb was the bottom limb. If the right limb is indeed your bottom limb then you DO want the area just outside the lower fade a little stiff. Maybe not quite as stiff as it is, but just a tad so......Art
Right limb is going to be the top and left limb will be the bottom, only because the right limb has that little wiggle in it and the bottom limb is nearly perfect.
But that could always change because I haven't done any filing on my grip yet, it's ambidextrous at the moment.
What are you thinkin Art?
Once I get this little bit of twist out of the limbs, I can make either side the top or the bottom. I just figured that with that little snaky wiggle in the right limb it would be better on top? I dunno why I even thought that, it just looks right to me I guess?
You should already have your upper/lower limb designated with your positive tiller set Chris before you shot your bow. That's if you shoot with split fingers. Cause shooting split fingers, you're stressing the bottom limb a bit more causing tiller shift. With your positive tiller set, this will automatically handle the extra stress to the bottom limb which will turn maintain good tiller health.
I agree, the left the bottom limb. Cause it looks thinner than the top which tells me that's how it stood in the tree. That and those little snakey wiggles always seem to grow in the upper part of the tree
Thanks again guys, and glad you got in on the discussion Vanilla bear. That's a cool trick you got going on there too. Visuals added to the pics help give your eyes something to compare the limbs to, all of this really helps guys I appreciate it immensely!
Here's the last pic for the night. I worked on the fade on the right hand side a bit more. Only taking off the pencil marks left by the gizmo. I took the pencil and shaded the area marked to the outside of each limb so I was sure to take it off evenly side to side and then only sanded off the shaded area an no more.
So Vanilla and John.......Work your photo magic with this pic and see what we got.
Thanks!
BTW Art- I'm shooting 3 under if that helps? But only shot maybe 30 times total if even that.
(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww146/mohunter68/BowtilleringMarch-BillsBow.jpg)
Thanks Scott! I'd say I'm nearly there?
I might just leave it like it is?
Anybody else care to comment on the tiller?
(http://i1088.photobucket.com/albums/i322/kountzer0/BowtilleringMarch-BillsBow_2.jpg)
The string loops and up at the same bend, the bend curve seems to be a little different in each limb, but both seem to be smooth arcs.
I like it but what do I know about it anyway? :saywhat:
Think of this post as an open question, if you will.
Jeff
I like the overlay of the lines guys, it helps the eyes have something else to referrence on.
That place on the right limb you mentioned Jeff is exactly where that snaky wiggle is. That's probably why it bends a bit funny right there. I'm hoping it will be fine in that area. I don't really know what else to do with it at this point?
I'm thinking that it is what it is and I'll just have to live with it.
Thanks for the extra eyes, that's why I post my pics on here to get others opinions and help me see things that I may not be able to catch myself.
I didn't mean that to sound to critical.
If it was me I'd go shoot it...alot
Heck I'd be showing my buddies, drinking beer etc. etc.
I'm only on my second bow anyways! I think you're doing great Semo...my post would be more like "can I save it?" or "more fire wood or tomato stake?" types at this point with a stick like that! :notworthy:
Thank you so much for sharing this.
Again.......better than mine Chris! We could split hairs all day with tillering. I say shoot the tires off it and have fun! Those arrows will NEVER know the difference! Looks like a fine tiller job.
Thanks guys, I appreciate all the fine comments. This isn't going to be my bow, I'm building it for a friend of mine whos been after me for quite awhile to build him a bow. That's why I wanted it to be as near perfect as possible. If I were building it for myself to keep, I'd already be shooting the tires off of it.
Next pics you see will be of a finished bow. :thumbsup:
Your friend is a lucky person! Im sure they will treasure the bow, if not you can send it to me to treasure!
Not to bad Semo. Those wiggles can be a bit of trouble can't they? Looking forward to the full draw pics.
Yeah, this is the first one that I've had to work around them. I need to get to work on that caul and start putting some creative heat treating in these bows.
This one is nearly done, I just have to finish the final shaping of the grip and my friend asked me for a small cut out in the handle for the arrow. So basically all that's left is cosmetic and finishing it, then of course I'll have to shoot the crap out of it for a few days before I sent it to him.
Next up will be my trade bow, now that I've honed my skills somewhat. I feel confident that I can move on to making ****** a real nice selfbow out of Osage. :thumbsup:
That tiller looks good to me. Thats gonna be a sweet shootin bow.
Something to consider here Chris. Does your friend grip and shoot a bow in your fashion? Art
That looks nice Semo.
QuoteOriginally posted by Art B:
Something to consider here Chris. Does your friend grip and shoot a bow in your fashion? Art
I don't think he owns a longbow?
I think he just wanted one because he saw pictures of the ones I built for myself and my nephews, then decided that he just had to have one. I don't really buy into all that 3 under tiller split finger tiller anyway. I haven't found that it makes much difference in how they shoot cause I've tried it both ways.
Thanks for all the compliments guys, I really appreciate everyone's opinions, observations, advice, and the extra sets of eyes. It all helps.
~SEMO~
Well I decided that instead of putting reflex in the tips or adding any kind of real extreme curves to the bow, that I would just straighten the tips cause each one had a tiny bit of twist. Then while I was at it, I strapped the entire bow flat to my bench and warmed up each limb just to the point of being hot to the touch to give it a bit of heat treatment. I was trying to counter act the little bit of set that the bow had taken while strung during the tillering process.
I think it turned out quite well and I'm going to call this good. The tips are straight with the entire bow and the profile has returned to nearly perfectly flat, which is what I had hoped to achieve. It may still take some set or string follow, but the tips are straight with zero twist and that's what I was trying to accomplish.
Here's the last pic.
(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww146/mohunter68/Tillering%20Osage%20Longbow/StringKeeper006.jpg)
Also here is a couple of pics of a string keeper I made this morning.
Yes....that is a canine tooth holding the string. I have no idea what type of canine it was, I found a skull while walking through the woods the other day and pulled the canine incisors out of it. When I found it I thought to myself...."Hmmm...I can make something out of these" and then this morning it dawned on me what they would be good for. Gifts from Mother Nature, waste not want not and death isn't always the end. That's how the Indians saw the scheme of life, and that's how I try to see it also.
I also thought it was befitting to have a Predator's tooth as part of and instrument used to take game in the hands of the Ultimate Predator at the top of the food chain. :thumbsup:
(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww146/mohunter68/Tillering%20Osage%20Longbow/StringKeeper005.jpg)
(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww146/mohunter68/Tillering%20Osage%20Longbow/StringKeeper002.jpg)
(http://i714.photobucket.com/albums/ww146/mohunter68/Tillering%20Osage%20Longbow/StringKeeper003.jpg)
We are a resourceful bunch arent we? I have a collection of "stuff" I have picked up a mile high. You just never know Chris! Nice work on your bow!
Good job! I it looks nice. Good idea with the keeper too.
Your bow turned out very nice Chris! Like that string keeper also.........Art
Thanks guys, I'm rather pleased with how it turned out. I appreciate all the critiques on the tiller and all the advice.
Like Pearl says, "It helps, it really does"
One last question.........Since I did some heating on the belly, should I wait a few days before stringing it and shooting it?
I've read on here before about letting it "Rehydrate" and even though I didn't get it very hot, just enough to straighten the tips and flatten it back out, I just want to make sure before I get right back at it.
Thanks!
I would give it at least one day Chris.........Art
I usually wait at least a week before bending a bow I have heated.
I don't think Chris done a full heat treating job John. He said earlier that he just strapped his bow to the bench and heated it to where it was hot to the touch.......Art
Fantastic job Chris! I think you oughta let it sit a bit. No experience with heat trreating at all, but if you heated it enough to straigten it out then I would have to say wait a bit.
Just think - u can make me one of those awesome string keepers to keep your hands from being idle in the meantime :p
I for one would be not only proud to be the recipient of that bow, but totally floored as well :notworthy:
I think your friend will be very pleased as well.
QuoteOriginally posted by Art B:
I don't think Chris done a full heat treating job John. He said earlier that he just strapped his bow to the bench and heated it to where it was hot to the touch.......Art
That's exactly what I did Art. Only hot enough that I couldn't keep my hand on it for more than about 3 seconds then I moved on down the limb. Then when I felt like it was all heated evenly I quit. Also I was holding the heat gun at least 3-4 inches away so as not to scorch it.
I just checked the humidity level for my area on Nexrad and it's only 25% but there's a storm front moving in tonight and Sunday night, so I think I'll leave it till at least Monday. The front moving in should bring some humidity with it, and I'm in no big hurry. Just to be on the safe side.
Kounter- Thanks for the kind words. I think I may start building these string keepers, I kinda enjoyed making this one.
Knowing the humidity level is the KEY. Even without heating, the R/H in your area would make bending your bow dangerous. And make rehydrating more difficult.
A small investment in a humidifier and humidity/temp monitors is wise if you plan on making future bows.....Art
TTT for Lee Strikkers