Another quick sinew question; how long should I wait for sinew to cure prior to completing tillering. Note my son and I (mostly my son Colton), processed the deer leg sinew and backed a hickory bow using TBII in an effort to prevent the bow from breaking (we didn't have any real hide glue, and Colton being the primitive purest he is, was very reluctant to use the TBII)...we sinew backed the bow because there were a couple weak areas that were a result of the draw knife cutting a little too much into the sapwood when removing the bark...Colton was only 6 yrs old last year when he removed the bark to allow the bow to dry so I cannot give him too hard of a time.
We originally planned to add some snake skins over the sinew but the sinew backing project was so rewarding that we don't want to cover it up.
I have attached a couple picts to share with you.
(http://i.imgur.com/AYWQ8.jpg)
Colton processing sinew.
(http://i.imgur.com/c7g54.jpg)
Adding a layer of TBII to back of bow prior to placing sinew. (Early Saturday morning work in PJ's)
(http://i.imgur.com/vatQC.jpg)
Placing sinew.
(http://i.imgur.com/em3GQ.jpg)
Spreading the sinew and removing air bubbles.
Thanks,
Dino (and Colton)
Very cool! With TBIII you are still adding moisture to the wood so a few days at least for the drying. The glue/sinew will cure out in a day or so in the dry winter weather but the moisture from the glue will enter the wood and has to work it way through the wood because the TBIII has made a vapor barrier on the back.
You should be able to tell after a few days if the bow feels mushy. If so, give it a few more days.
Nice pics, good to see a fine young man learning the craft at an early age. Time he get's to my age he will be an awsome bowyer.
Stiks
Good job young man, well done to each of you. Doesn't get much better then to pass on your sport and love to the young ones.
you have an excellent helper there,I am sinewing a horn composite myself today and had to stop my 4 yr old daughter from helping much to her annoyance.The only thing i fail to understand is why are you using tb3?it negates the effect the sinew and hide glue should have,the idea behind sinew backing is to give the bow the super springiness and when done with hide glue it adds reflex and speed in my humble opinion,where as when done with tb3 it does nothing other than give it a descent backing.
cheers
Hi Shikari-
If it matters, I used TB2 (Pat B above mis-read the glue type as TB3). Either way, you probably are still correct. I'm a novice and I have been trying to get as much info as I can from TradGang-ers...I guess you cannot always trust what your read.
Well, in hind sight (and not having any hide glue), it was still a great experience and fun working working together with my son. Live and learn I guess....
Sorry I didn't read it properly. Either TBII or TBIII can be used with sinew. You won't get the same performance results as you will with sinew/hide glue but you will get some, plus it will give you a strong back for protection.
PJ, looking forward to seeing your horn bow!
Just attended a weekend seminar with Mike Yancey. One of the questions is simular to the above.
Mike said he uses the TB2 or TB3. Same result with either but the TB2 drys clearer vs a darker color.
Compared to hide glue his opinion is that other than being less messy no difference.
Ed Scott of Owl Bows now uses TB.
Another interesting item from the seminar was a thin layer flat across the back is good for protecting the back but gives little added benefits.
Where as a built up thick layer with the center being thicker adds all the spring effect and also causes weight changes as it gets colder.
Not my opinions straight from Mike.
Ron
Oh one other thing. These were for his short stressed bows.
Ron
All else being equal, I've never noticed any performance differencs between the different glues either. You just need to add additoinal reflex to your bow when using the TB glue. Easy to do........Art
Well, now that the sinew on the back of the bow dried for a few days, we will sand off the excess glue and sinew on the sides, although it doesn't look too sloppy. Question: should we leave the sinew wrapped length-wise over the tips or completely remove on the edges so wood is visible along the sides and tips...or is this a preference thing?
After day one of drying, the sinew was a little soft in the thicker areas along the center of the back and at the handle (I purposely added extra sinew at the handle because it was a bit thin)...no reflex in the bow limbs was visible. I put the bow on a form yesterday AM and clamped lightly while it finished drying hoping to get some reflex...I removed the bow from the form a few minutes ago (after ~3 days drying) and there is a little reflex now.
I did a little internet research on using TB verse hide glue and see that there is some debate going both ways. As I sit back and think about it, if the glue gives (i.e. stretches due to latex (?) in the glue) then I can see how the sinew might not work to its maximum efficiency (wondering out loud if "maximum efficiency" can be interpreted (in general) as the amount of reflex a bow gains?) It seems to me that if the sinew is completely hydrated prior to applying, and applying it taunt (i.e. stretched out), it would shrink more, giving the bow a more noticeable reflex. And, it seems logical that if the glue type used dries at the same rate as the sinew (or slower), the maximum benefit of the sinew can be achieved (i.e., if the glue dries faster than the sinew dries, maybe the sinew can be trapped in the glue before it completely shrinks). Also, regarding my babbling above, there are probable many variables that can affect the entire process. I was hoping not to "re-invent the wheel" but I guess it is helpful to learn by your mistakes.
COOL STUFF,, right there!!!
Keep us posted Colton :archer2:
One thing that Mike Yancey stressed was to get maximum effect from the sinew he soaks it in water for about 1 hour so that he is sure it is saturated. Then squeeze out the water and dip in glue.
Ron
Oh yes on the wrapped sinew on the tips. I've used it for making sure the ends were attached well and as decorative wraps, coloring with permanent markers.
Ron
I forget in TBB I or II can't remember hide glue once I find it i will let you know but hide glue itself would cause wood to reflex. I wonder if you put it on the back and let it dry then TB and sinew. Just wondering don't mean to hijack the thread.
Kelly, I don't think hide glue alone will draw a stave into reflex. It is the sinew shrinking and the hide glue that causes the reflex.
Tite-bond and hide glue bond very well together Kelly. I have sinewed with the TB glue over both sinew/hide glue. Worked wonderfully.......Art
the hide glue when used for sinewing is hot,not boiling but below boiling temp and above warm and when the sinew is soaked in this and laid on a bow it really contracts as it dries giving it the reflex.I make composites only now and everysource tells me to use only hideglue or fish bladder glue and that's what I use.
Ultimately its your bow and use what we want to.
cheers
Pat I don't remember where I read it but a test was done on a strip of wood with just hide glue and it bowed as the glue dried. I will if I can find it I really dont rememeber. And I may just be plan wrong that has happened and I am sure it will happen again.
This is a good thread I mean how many is this that has kids involved and that is plan great. Hope to see more on it.
Kelly
I remember that article as well Kelly. The hide glue alone did reflex the slat where as the yellow glue did not.
That's not to say that you can't use the Tite-bond glue and sinew to achieve a reflexed bow. Here you just need to add the reflex to the bow before using this type of glue.......Art
I wish I had a little helper like that, sometimes I could honestly use the help! There are certain things and certain times where a 3rd hand would be most welcomed, and I don't know why the good Lord didn't give us a 3rd arm sticking straight out of our foreheads? That would be the perfect spot for an arm sometimes.
I guess cause we would be too creepy looking? :thumbsup:
Kelly, if you put a drop of hide glue on a piece of glass it will pull out a cone of glass as it dries so I guess it could draw up a piece of wood as well...so I stand corrected. d;^)
hey im hoping i can revive this thread with some questions i have.
1. i just sinewed my first bow. it is really messy looking. am i just clumsy or does everyones look lumpy and odd the first go?
2. i put two layers down in one sitting. jim hamm states in his book bows and arrows of native americans and in bowyers bible that there is no difference in drying between layers and doing all layers. im curious if others have tried both ways?
3. i only got through two layers before running out of glue. i had powdered hide glue filling up about a third-ish of a sandwich size ziplock and my bow is about 59" long, 1/2 at the tip and maybe 1 1/2 at grip. does that sound right or did i go overboard on my gluing?
4. hamm recomends a generous layering of hide glue as a last layer after the sinew is down. i first thought i would just leave it at 2 layers (one full layer and one strip down the center) so i just spread out a good helping of hide glue after my last layer. if i go back and add a third layer over the whole back will that thick layer of glue throw things off? should i wait till it is cured and scrape it down first?
5. my sinewing did not go over the sides too much. is it a functional necessity for the sides of the bow to be fully sinewed?
thank you so much to whoever reads thisand has the patience to answer.
never done a sinew bow, but have read that combing the dry sinew very well before soaking- really helps get a smooth finish.
it was combed with a block of wood with a bunch of fine( finishing) nails through the block- geuss one should pre drill the holes for the nails, or all trhose nails will split the wood.
the comb was clamped to the table and the sinew was pulled through it.
You can sand the dried sinew to smooth it out a bit. Then you can add a smooth 3rd layer over that. Having the sinew only on the back is OK but wrapping it over the sides a little really secures it to the bow.
On the few sinew backed bows I've done I added 3 layers of sinew with a month drying time between each layer. Many put all the sinew down at once. I thin it is a matter of personal preference. Doing it one layer at a time lets you see how each layer covers and then you can fill in where needed for the next layer.
Be sure to allow plenty of time for the sinew/hide glue to cure especially is humid summer weather. Also, the wood soaks up some of the moisture and that has to dry also.
thanks pat.
you say allow the glue to cure completely meaning before i sand and add the third layer? or can i just go ahead and put that on now with no sanding on the extra glue layer i put over the bow after the 2nd layer?
sorry if that is confusing.
what about my question about amount of glue? any thoughts on that?
You can do it either way. If it has been a while since you added the last glue a light sanding will expose fresh glue and you'll get better adhesion. Wiping the surface with warm water might do the same thing.
When I made my sinew backed bows I used as little hide glue as possible and still get good adhesion. Sinew/hide glue weigh more than wood fo you are adding physical weight and that can reduce some of the benefits of the sinew.
i remember reading in one of the TBBs that knox geletin can be used as hide glue. does anyone else remember reading this or has anyone used it? don
I've used Knox with pretty good results. It is refined, food grade hide glue.
Good thread...hope to give the Knox a try soon :pray: