I have a conundrum brewing in my head, so I've turned to my brothers and sisters of the string for opinions. I can't tell you how hard the trad bug has bitten me, but i'm sure most all of you can relate. However, I have an issue figuring out what the limits of traditional archery are. I see STUNNING traditional bows all the time, but with sights, super lightweight quivers, carbon arrows with fake feathers for fletching, and then we can get into the discussion of shapes, sizes, styles, laminated, heat bent, the use of METAL, yadda yadda...
It gets my head spinning. I ask for your opinion because I have had these two bows in my mind for about 4 or 5 months now, but they would most certainly NOT be considered traditional based on their design. Their shape would look like an alien's bow, but they would be made from wood only. One bow I have in the back of my mind (unlike the two I mentioned taking over my sleep!) would have a machined aluminum riser, with wood recurved tips. That doesn't sound traditional to me, but it doesn't have any wheels, and would be made in my little garage shop. The objective for one of my fantasy bows would be a totally tool-less, bolt-less, fastener-less, 3 piece take-down.
Basically, do you consider bows like Horse bows, take down recurves, bows that use any type of metal in their execution, sights, etc, Traditional? I'm not sure where the line is if one was to want to keep it "traditional".
Thanks in advance for your help gang!
Trad to me is anythign with out sights or wheels.
Shoot what you like fish
Heck fish guys are making warf bow out of old compounds. Heck Ruddy just made a two piece long bow with a steel and metal sleeve, I don't think anyone would say that is not a trad bow. Make it and see what they come out like so you can at least get some sleep.
Kelly
On TradGang a traditional bow is any longbow or recurve. Doesn't matter if it has a metal riser, sights or what have you. As long as it doesn't have wheels it is considered traditional here on TradGang
For me recurves and longbows are traditional but they get farther away from traditional as more gegahs are added. A naked bow with no sights, stabilizers, etc would be traditional for me. I guess a traditional target bow would have sights, stabilizers, etc. Even back in the days of Fred Bear he was experimenting with aluminum risers, limbs and limb cores. He, and a few others, popularized FG in bows. In those days I guess only wood bows were considered traditional. Traditional means following tradition! In 100 years compounds will probably be considered traditional because of their 150 years of tradition.
For me, wood bows, preferrably selfbows, wood, cane or hardwood shoot arrows and homemade points, stone or steel, is traditional. I guess it all depends on when "traditional" begins in your mind.
There are many comfigurations in archery. A simple stick and string, complex composite horn/wood/sinew bows, horn or antler bows with sinew , Eskimo driftwood bows with a sinew cable backing, Penopscott(sp) double bows, pebble bows from the Far East, long bows with longer, unfletched arrows from South America and other places, minature Pigmy elephant hunting bows and the list goes on. We, as humans, have to keep messing with stuff. It's in our DNA! That is what has gotten us to where we are today. Without that we would still be like our cousins the great apes. Where is the deviding line between modernism and traditionalism?
So, fish, if you think about something long enough I guess you could consider it traditional, but in the whole scheme of things, does it really matter. After all, these are only words and it is up to each of us to decide what they mean to us.
Oh, boy... an argument! :)
Just so happens this is my hot button. Let me begin by saying that modern bows are wonderful... R/D's, carbon, ILF, etc... all good and all made legal by adaptation of rules designed to enhance control of competition. None of it, neither the equipment or the competition rules, has much to do with tradition.
Traditional means to do something the same as it was done at a specific time, place or period in the past, using as close as you can to the same equipment and techniques that were in common, repeat, common, use at the time. You can always find the cutting edge example to just justify what you want to consider traditional now. For instance, you can find a breech loading rifle in use in the Revolutionary War (Ferguson)... doesn't mean a Weatherby is traditional!
If you want to think of the way we shoot today as traditional, it is, in the sense that that is the name that has been given to our style of shooting... it's a label. It opens things up to any kind and degree of modern development as long as the style is maintained, i.e. no sights. When someone offers new limbs made of molymacromarsidium a rare metalic spring material that will be discovered on Mars, that will be considered, under the rules, as traditional.
If you want to shoot traditionally, that's another story. Pick your period, do some research to see what was being shot by that time's average hunter, equip yourself as he was equipped and see if you can do as well as he did. That's shooting traditionally, as opposed to shooting traditional style.
This is the same conundrum facing muzzle loading... The traditional weapon of the frontier was a patched round ball rifle. Yes, there were exceptions, but they weren't common. The stainless steel, primer ignited, scope sighted, sabot shooting rifles in the woods in muzzle loading season today bear the same relationship to "traditional" rifles that carbon limbed ILF bows and RD bows bear to earlier bows.
It's all labels, but I like to see words keep their meaning. I have all kinds of bows, except compounds (can't hold them up, but consider them marvelous machines). I shoot them all and enjoy them, but I know in my heart which ones are traditional.
OK, the grumpy old man will go away now...........
Goodness, this is one thats beat over and over in the powwow section I bet 100 times. Guess I am not sure what it has to do with bowyers bench?
fish , i too have contemplated a larf bow (like a warf , but with longbow limbs instead of ilf stuff) . trad is what you feel gives you that connection to the past.
i personally dont like sights , but i might work a little contour into the wife's bow , so she has a kind of guage of distance. i also have drawn up a "trad" whisker biscuit ,with a wooden ring , and bucktail for the whisker part. so i can use alum's with vanes. this is probably far beyond trad for most here , but i dont care much for confines.
i do however , dislike my bear compound with wheels and sights. for all that , i'd bust out the savage bolt action 12g thats good to 280yds.
i guess im saying i like trad because a: i can build my own bow B:i like the connection to the past and C: im cheap , i like to build my own stuff..
did i mention im cheap?
lets see some sketches of that futuristic bow fish. i still have a dream of a triple penobscot.
-hov
If I build a traditional crossbow, like the ones used thousands of years ago, would ya all still love me? LOL
To me trad is stickbows. I like BBO bows, but if I go to a primitive archery site and post pictures of my BBO bows, I get shot full of holes.. :) I just smile and leave.
Back in the 70's when I shot. Sights and stablizers were the normal for some. Others shot bare bow. There were classes at shoots.
Just make and shoot what makes you happy. That's how I view it anymore.
wish I was a modarator, would yank this nonsense before the first post.
James.................................
What Dick said!!! "grumpy old guys" know lots more than us semi old guys! Well said Dick!
QuoteOriginally posted by bigcountry:
Goodness, this is one thats beat over and over in the powwow section I bet 100 times. Guess I am not sure what it has to do with bowyers bench?
Because my question is relative to bows I would like to MAKE, which I learned to do here, on The Bowyer's Bench.
But thanks for the input.
QuoteOriginally posted by JamesV:
wish I was a modarator, would yank this nonsense before the first post.
James.................................
Wow. Totally not what I was expecting to see when I came back to this tonight. Guess i'll keep my freaking thoughts to myself next time.
Maybe some of you haven't figured this out but not all of us "bowyers" spend our days and nights in the Pow Wow section to know this is a subject that has left a trail of dead horses. SOME of us are over here trying to advance our skills in the art of bow making, while at the same time truly understanding the art itself.
But I guess you've clarified this for all of us already James, so if you'd be so kind as to enlighten me with a link to your response to this "nonsense", I'd love to also gather your input as well.
Thanks for checking out the thread bud, i'll be keeping an eye out for that link.
Fish don't take it too hard. It is like asking rifle hutners what is the best caliber and such. I think Dick said it best. This site admins and mods have set the rules of what trad is here. The do a great job of policing up thread that are meant to be just a troll. I am sure that is way yours was not yanked. You asked simply to help for your design. I thinks some just skim over the topic post and leave and have know I deal truely was asked or said. I unfortunalty read to much of the info and as you can tell write on it to much also.
Roy From PA I would still love ya and heck beg for you to build me one, so I could have one to try out. :bigsmyl:
God Bless and Happy Building,
Kelly
Fish...........
Sorry if I got your tailfeathers in a ruffle. You asked for my opinion and I gave it, again sorry if it isn't what you wanted to hear. Suggestion...............make you posts debate free if you don't want to hear both sides.
James.....................
QuoteOriginally posted by JamesV:
Fish...........
Sorry if I got your tailfeathers in a ruffle. You asked for my opinion and I gave it, again sorry if it isn't what you wanted to hear. Suggestion...............make you posts debate free if you don't want to hear both sides.
James.....................
If you think traditional archery and bow making is "nonsense", what are you doing here? I'm not one to get his tail feathers in a ruffle easily, but the only opinion you gave was about what you would do if you were a mod. Which, fortunately for us who truly care about the soprt, you're not.
i think james was just saying that this is one of those sort of things that gets someone going and can cause an argument over sides. like dick said , some places that are primitive dont want to see eveen two pieces of wood glued together with hide glue. while places like home(here) dont mind if you want a little carbon or metal in your bow.
i think as long as your bow does not give you a significant mechanical advantage , beyond the scope of launching the arrow quickly and accurately , its trad.
to me , as long as you still have that trad aspect in your heart , even a trad crossbow is something i'd like to see. its not something i would make or hunt with , but if its hand crafted by a member , then of course i want pics.
just cause its not for me , doesnt mean i wouldnt be interested in someones method for makin something like that.
as for tailfeathers , you guys are the first in a long time (since joining) that seem to disagree , and its still not even an argument. it just seems james has seen where somethign like this leads , even if he did come across a little gruff.
no harm no foul i say. shake hands and agree to disagree...
-hov
I gave my opinion of what I consider traditional. Some might agree, some might not. You know what they say about opinions...we all have one!
Roy,which primitive site were you reffering to?
PA, PP?
Hov said it right, agree to disagree and move on. I've been here a little while and this is the first time I've seen even a little arguing started between two members.
If you guy's want to hash it out do it in pm's and leave it off the bench. I spend alot of time here and have no issues with anyone so James and Fish don't take what I'm saying personally.
Just stick to the topic or don't post.
Stiks
What you are planning to make is within the bounds of traditional archery. Just do it if it makes you happy. And show us if you'd like. If it doesn't comply with the rules of this site, the mods will pull it.
I have never run into anyone (trad, compound, rifle...) who questioned what I shot. Showed interest - Yes, but no discussion/arguing.
I am convinced that each of us in reaching for personal achievement. My advice is "Never let someone else determine the value of a Personal achievement."
example - I used to run a lot. Somebody told me that some folks run farther than the standard 26.2 mile marathon. So I thought - "hey! let's try it.' I trained for and entered a 50-mile footrace. Just to show how out of the mainstream this is - there were 6 people running the 50. Anyway, due to some people dropping out and me being too stubborn to stop I found myself winning the durn thing. Never won a race in my life up to then. I was EXSTATIC! as I walked past the timer table, one of the timers leaned over to another timer and said (Wow, 9 hours 45 minutes. That's the slowest winning time ever."
I was crushed until my wife reminded me the timer was not the one running.
Never let someone else determine the value of a personal achievement.
Back in the late 70's and early 80's after the compound took over bowhunting, there was only people that still made and/or shot recurves and longbows. I don't know when it became a "tradition". I always thought the term "traditional bow" and "traditional bowhunter" was a way to target a market by manufactures, publishers, etc.
So build what you want and show us pictures as you go.
Well ya all can forget about me making a traditional crossbow guys, just hain't gonna happen:)
Pat it's been a while and I don't even remember the site, may have been PA though, no biggie.
Fish my brother, you build whatever kind of stickbow ya want, it's your Bow. But if ya put wheels on it, I'm coming out there and smacken ya dude:)
ah roy come on now I was looking forwad too one:)
Don't make me do it Kelly:) LOL
I think a traditional bow means so many different things to different people, and many have already said that basically it's a recurve, R/D, or Longbow with no wheels or cables.
To me personally, it's the same except I don't condider anything with sights, an arrow rest other than a padded shelf, stabilizers, peep sights, or any metal in it to be traditonal.
That's just my opinion because how many metal risers did you see 50 years ago? How many stabilizers sticking out the front of the bow did you see 50 years ago? How many guys who shot a stick and string had sights?
Not many if any at all.
But.....and it's a real big but.......it is what it means to you. If you like metal riser bows and want to make your own then I say go for it.
Bottom line is that if it's made with your own two hands from a pile of parts, it doesn't get much more traditional than that except to carve your own from a fence post size chunk of bow wood.
I'm a wood guy, even the new laminated bows that I drool over everyday would have to be all wood with the "exception of" some glass over wood to trip my trigger. I don't mind fiberglass over wood and I think some of them are down right georgous! Metal risers just don't tickle my fancy much, but that's just me.
Arrows don't matter much to me, I like them all no matter what they are made out of and I shoot all three wood, aluminum, and carbon.
VA.....good story....you finished the race...kudos.Some are purists,others not so much....a little variety in the long run isn't going to diminish the nature of this excellent group of tradgangers.I'm just saying........
Ah come on Semo, you can't shoot carbon out of a wooden bow dude, that's a no no:) LOL, well said above.
I have my own opinion what a bow is. I wouldn't use the term traditional, because it doesn't really mean anything as far as archery goes.
I also wouldn't give a rats tail what anyone else thought of any bow that I made. If I like it, its fine. If you like it... good for you. If you don't.... good for you.
It may sound like an insane question to many, but this is all excellent information. To me anyway. This is my research into the traditional world.
Pat B, I don't know how this happened, but you mentioned the Penobscot Bow, so I looked it up, and it turned out to be one of those "holy crap... this guy stole my idea" moments. The bow is almost a dead match to a bow I sketched out a month ago. Except my outer limbs stretched the length of the bow, and it only used one string. Thanks for throwing that out there. Maybe i'm on to something after all.
Traditional bows to me... are hand made, mathematically derived, scientifically proven, and field tested food for the soul. It's knowing you hit the mark before the string has broken free of your finger. Arrogant confidence, manifested by thumps of the target, and a childish grin. It's wood shavings, raw fingers, fired up stoves and long nights you wished went longer. It's instinctual. It's pure. It's simple. It's more than a bow, it's a story. A conversation piece. A friend maker. It's a weapon, an art piece, and a tool. It's yours, but borrowed from nature, and possibly meant for the future, but yours in every way.
I guess a traditional bow is, in so many ways, indeed what you make it.
Thanks for the dialogue Gang.
Here's an aspect of this whole thing that I haven't seen mentioned in the thread... Over the past years I've seen a lot of feeling expressed re trad vs. compound, and I avoided any "open" shoots. Well, a few weeks back I got invited to go to an open shoot with some trad friends. I found we were welcomed and we had a great time. Some folks were interested in our bows. OK... That worked. Next weekend I went to another open shoot, this time alone. Again I was welcomed and even caught up with a couple of trad guys on the course. It worked well for me because these two small clubs ran their shoots on the basis that Saturday was casual, Sunday was the formal "for score" event. Hmm... I said, if there are more clubs like this, I could easily shoot a dozen more events and new courses this year than I usually do! Trad is a niche within archery, but everything that's archery helps to support the industry that makes what we do possible, which is good. Further, anything that creates more opportunities for a non-score keeping "just love to shoot" trad guy like me gets a "yes" vote. I don't think I'd want to go to a big, highly competitive compound event, but if small compound groups want to give me a chance to come play with them and have fun, I'll take them up on it and probably meet a lot of real nice folks! I'm going to another shoot tomorrow. That's three shoots in three weeks, all within driving distance. My shooting world just changed.
Happy for you Dick..Have fun!
As to the original question....
Make what you want and have fun doing it.
If you're worried about the rules HERE as what Trad is look em up.
Most of all enjoy the journey!
:thumbsup:
Dick, that sounds like a blast! A lot of wheelie guys like the trad bows I shoot with em too. Of course it's even better getting those who have never shot a traditional bow to shoot one, and see the look on their face when they hit someone's tire in the parking lot :biglaugh:
I'd also say that Dick answered the question best. Traditional bows are certainly relative to time period. Today's traditional bows, well, they really aren't. But, if the market is to compete... manufacturers are certainly going to do what it takes to stay ahead of the competition.
Stiks, I agree with you too bro. No sights. Hard to call it instinctive when you are using a tool other than your nugget.
In my opinion, anything that is of traditional style is traditional. This is longbow, recurve, takedown what have you. Metal, synthetics, or wood.
No mechanics, just limbs and string for power.
Much Aloha... :archer2: