I always wondered that. I've seen people with the title "master bowyer" and wondered how would one attain such status? As far as I know there's no board, or exam , or certification.
Thoughts?
Ego combined with confidence (or sale's pitch) mostly...but I would hope competence would come with such a statement as well. Unfortunately, I have my doubts on that one since most people that use that designation titled themselves as such...for I too know of no organization that provides such a certification.
Hmmmm. I will leave R.W alone.
I think that what I have seen on this site a lot of people would fit the bill.
Most on certain types of bow or styles. I mean some focus on self long bow, some lams, and the list goes on. but we see the work they do and I for one am impressed with the "Amateurs" on here. I mean it almost overwhelms me.
I have a dream of making my own bow have attempted but not succeeded yet. But I see all the bow out there and wow. what some can do with a simple log, and others with glass and wood. All beautiful. I am still wanting to try hickory myself but man I do dream of a day when I can make a bow that has horn on the belly and sinew and skin on the back.
OOPs back to the point I just thank that there are so many types and most are masters at a few but not all.
I googled it and found a write up about the origin of the english longbow, and it mentions a master bowyer could make a bow in under 2 hours. Not too hard.
maybe for a laminated bow. I don't know about a selfbow in two hours. Seems pretty difficult to me, but hey, I guess that's what makes em masters! Cool thread.
I can make a bow in two hours! The quality would be questionable though! :p
This is a subject I've been contemplating lately. I've been reading about the mass prinicple in TBB IV and thinking if I could get this I would be closer to being a master, or mistress in my case...I guess...
R.W. thanks for the great laugh, thats a funny comment.
I think master bowyer is usually reserved for those making selfbows. Some bowyers make superior bows, and the rest of us call them master bowyers as a recognition of their talent. There is not secretive, dues paying, with rampant cronyism, bowyer's organization that "gives" that title. Its a peer given title, which makes it much more special.
A lamiated bow takes more that 2 hours just for the epoxy to cure, so it would have to be a self bow. I personally am not a fast bowyer, or a slow bowyer, but mearly a half fast bowyer.
I can make a kids bow from pvc pipe in about five minutes, does that count? :goldtooth:
I would call a master bowyer someone that can build a perfect bow. Time not pertinent. Since I have never built a perfect bow. I cannot qualify. Since I have never shot a perfect bow I doubt anyone else qualifys. Thats whats so neat./ There is always room for improvement. God Bless you all and have a wonderful day. Steve
Mike, your reviews on this thread alone tell me your a dang fine bowyer and that's all I need. 'Specially those bows you make for the yung'uns. :thumbsup:
Keep up the good work and thanks for what you do! :notworthy:
Looking back in even the last 5 years or so of bow-making competitions in a popular archery magazine, I have seen the quality and creativity of bowyers reach awesome levels! The definition of "master" keeps growing along with the skill shown and shared on sites such as these.
~John
I think it is a title that has been bestowed on bowyers with years in the business by a satisfied customer base.. If you can make a living at it for several years, got to be doing something right. Now if the bowyer chooses to give himself the title of master bowyer, well that is different matter all together. That's just my take.
What Sal said, peer given title in recognition of years of crafting knowing all the tricks of the trade, not bestowed upon ones self......
my take, (I aint there... )
Mike
I've been a bowyer for 20 yrs, made over 750 bows. There are a couple of bowyers out there that when I pick up one of their bows, there's magic to it. The beauty takes your breath away. The craftsmanship of the details, the creativity of materials they used. Of course, it needs to shoot well too :>)
Its okay to be self named master, if your work is in this catergory. Don't get hung up on if there is a paper to say they are master, you see it in what they make.
Yeah, wasn't asking because I want to be one or anything. I get my satisfaction from customers that are happy, especially kids.
-Mike
A master bowyer is a guy who can throw a bow the furthest when he messes up!!!!!
LMAO Red Tail...
Without any certification like the trades have, it is realy hard to define.
I would expect that a "MASTER" of the "Bowyers Craft" would be highly skilled and competent in the "design" and building of "all" types of bows , as well as repairing, and altering of all types, not just 1 type.
He would also be a Teacher of his craft, and would oversee a number of bowyers that are learning his skills, much like the recognised trades do.
What we mostly have now are "Aprentice" level and "Journeyman" Bowyers.
Pete
I have been to the shop of Hornes Archery,and to watch Mark glide around his shop is nearly like a Maestro to an orchestra.He is a great craftsman and quite the designer also.
While I havn't been to Norm Johnsons shop,I have owned,and have shot many of his bows.His advertisement reads Craftsmanship Beyond Compare.
He can and does back it up.If I were in a room of "Bowyers",I would point a finger at these two as being Master Bowyers.I havn't met every bowyer,but I would think Mark And Norm are as close to "Master"as we have.MHO
Every now and then I get to hold a bow that instantly says" the guy who made this is an artist in wood". These guys are the master bowyers to me.
These guys just have an eye for detail. It doesn't matter if they have made 10 bows or 100 their craftsmanship stands out.
Jamie Boyd in Alabama is one such bowyer, not made a bunch of bows but his first was a work of art and they have only gotten better.
Bowbuilding is such an evolving art form that I am not sure that there is a true master at the present time. Most of us are in the evolutionary stage or being left in the dust of those that do evolve. God Bless you all and have a wonderful evening. Steve
QuoteOriginally posted by jess stuart:
I think it is a title that has been bestowed on bowyers with years in the business by a satisfied customer base..
I think it's pretty much bestowed upon themselves. :biglaugh:
Pete W
I think you are on to something there. I don't think any one person can master them all just too many styles. The teaching and mentoring others of their style and even understand enough to help us unfortunate others get bows built outside of their area so to speak.
The term, I believe had its origins from the Medieval Guild system particularly in England. Those wanting to learn how to make the English longbow would study with a master bowyer. I've met a few master bowyers from the US...Dean Torges, Bob Holzhauser, Steve Gardener and Tim Baker. Two out of those 4 sold bows but selling bows is not the over riding factor these days. I've had contact with many others through email. But I won't name those for obvious reasons. LOL. :) Jawge
It's been a little over two years since I asked the question, and the replies that have made the most sense are (of Course) George "Jawge" Tsoukalas' and (Of course) Red Tail hawk's, explainatiopn of the one that can throw the bow the furthest when he messes up. (I've pitch a fit or two but I'm sure they didn't go very far when I threw them)
And Jawge, I must mention this, back in 2000, I read your entire page several times, then made my first selfbow, and it was a shooter, even though it was made from "undersired" materials. So I suppose, since I studied, your writtings, that made you my master. (even though I went to the "dark side" and am now dabling in laminated ones. just kidding) I can still make a good self bow and still do it from time to time.
I also agree on what Sixby said about perfection .
Mike, I am a Master Bowyer. Well I thought I was until tonight. Not sure if it was the beer or the Osage, or the Boo. Things were not going right at all tonight in the shop with a BBO on a long but tight string. Darn string kept sliding off to one side when I tried to string it with a long but tight string. Off one side, then off the other side, so I'd take wood off the strong side, right?. So I said hell with it and stung her up to a 5 inch brace height. Damn string then ran smack dab down the center, tip to tip. I give up. Gonna have a nutter beer and mess with guys on here:) :laughing:
Dang Roy...sounds like ya need to put that fruity pebbles beer down buddy ;)
Mike, call Tom Turgeon. he is self-proclaimed master bowyer. I'm sure he can explain what the title means.
seriously, there is no such thing in this day and age. "master bowyer" is nothing more than a loosely used term to describe the most talented and experienced bowyers among us
it is a carry forward of a time when craftsmen were found in every niche and they had apprentices and such working under them to learn the craft/trade. There was talk a decade or two ago about trying to start a bowyers guild and allow apprencticeships and such....but one concern is who would decide the requirements....and is it on experience, age, number of bows built per year or some other goal? Nobody had an answer from what I remember....
There are some bowyers of both self and glass backed bows that I would consider at the top of their game and worthy to spend time with learning and observing as a budding novice bowyer. It is more than making pretty bows...it is about craftsmanship, style, reliability, quality, and also willingness to share with those interested in truly learning this craft.
Master bladesmiths do not all make perfect knives but they have "mastered" forging, tempering, design, build and artistic aspects of their craft...they understand in great detail how slight changes in metal composition, temp of fires, quenching in water or oil and other factors effect looks, durability, ability to take an edge and hold it, etc.
The term was also used in the Golden Age of archery to describe the senior bowyer at a company.....someone that designed bows and built them but also oversaw the training of others working under them to do the same.
I only get upset when somoene that has just entered the field uses it and is in it for a quick buck or to take advantage of the general public. If it is someone that I know has been around the block a few times, has consistently built quality bows of unquestionable beauty and is a true "master" of his passion with traditional archery.....then I think it is well deserved. Though I have yet to hear any of them call themselves that...usually it is labeled on them from someone else....as it should be.
to me a master bowyer is someone who can make a living wage building bows---good luck!!!
Mike that would be a master salesman rather. There are many "master" bowyers who never sell a bow.
If someone tells you they are a master bowyer they probably are not! Their actions and the results can tell you if he(or she) is a master bowyer but self proclaimation doesn't do it for me.
I've been building selfbows and wood bows for the better part of 30 years and still haven't made it to master and never will. Most of my bows will do what they were intended to do, some are beautiful but none are masterful and again will never be. They don't need to be and neither do I.
Isn't that something similar to a gut that puts bait on hooks? :bigsmyl:
Sorry just couldn't help it
Last night, I was going through some threads I started and found this one and re opened it to see what the replies were, and Like I suspected, there are as many diverse replies and explainations as there are personalities. I enojoyed reading everyone's replies.
I figured I'd ask it here on the Bowyer's bench since that's what all of us do, and if you all are like myself, you try to make the next one better than the last.
I think a master bowyer can look at the bow when it's done, and find no room for improvement.
For me that's one thing I haven't been able to do.
It seems, when I finish a bow, I find something I want to do better next time. Usually small things, usually things that the person that gets the bow will never notice unless I point it out to him/her.
That is my one lofty, and virtually unreachable goal, to look at, and shoot, my creation, and realize it's flawless.
They say that in business, you can't succeed unless you set attainable goals. On that note I'm just thankful bowyering isn't simply business, rather an art.
I think the boyers from back in the 50's-60's and 70's that designed the great bows of that era for the companies like Bear,Pearson and Martin, just to mention a few were Master Boyers. They set the bar so high without much input from their fore-runners that the last 60 yrs have not produced much improvment in performance.
I have to agree with Jess' take on the matter. A bowyer that is in the craft for a living, and makes a living for any period of time must be doing something right. "Master bowyer" should be an honorific title given by many satisfied customers and by recognition of one's peers. To call yourself a master anything, without having a legitimate basis for the title, is egotistical crap!
Somewhere I read (not official) that a master bowyer is someone who has made a living full time at building and selling bow for 10 years or more. I dont remember where I read it though.
I'm not sure making a living by doing it should be a qualification. There are guys here who have never sold a bow that are clearly masters of the art.
Yep
In my opinion a master, no matter in what kind of field, is he who is seen as a master by his peers.
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Andy
I think there are folks on this web site that would qualify as "master bowyers."
In fact several of them have written comments on this thread proclaiming not to be such an animal...
Several of you have written that a master would be named such by their peers and satisfied customers. Amen.
Self-proclaimed sounds a lot like a dictator to me.
There is a gun maker's guild..why not a traditional bowyer's guild?
T Folts read the same thing you did dont remember where a master bowyer must make a living buy his bows alone for 10 years nothing else but then in those times the bow was the most advanced weapon of its time , a weapon of war, hunting, and self protection , so master bowyers earned their title
I bait my own hooks, does that mean I'm a master ******? :)
I only know that I'm not even ghost of a shadow of a master bowyer!
Roy,
It the field of baiting there are Apprentise baiters and Journeyman Baiters. The Masters only did it for a short time or until they needed glasses.
You see in the upper ranks the hooks are smaller :saywhat: :saywhat: :biglaugh:
The most common conclusion seems to be most acceptable, and that's to be given the title by others, peers perhaps, customers, perhaps...
MIke, I am so glad you made good use of my site. It has been a labor of love. Thanks. Jawge
Lee, I been wearing glasses for years. Just got a new pair last week, Doctor told me I better slow down or I'm gonna go blind:)
Yeah, and lots of references to fishing and bait, and those that are quite good at putting the bait on the hook. I wasn't really trying to connect those with the title "master", but I suppose we each have our own way of thinking.
There is a Bowyer's Guild with reference to Master Bowyers. It is in England: http://bowyersandfletchersguild.org/index.html
Titles worry me when self proclaimed or used for self aggrandizing.
John I researched the Guild for a project back in the 90's. My Great,Great, Great, Grandfather was listed in the Guild.
Old timer I talked to several weeks ago told me he didn't think anyone should even call themselves a bowyer until they had made 200 bows. This from a guy who made bows from back in the '60's till he finally quit a couple years ago. His bows are some of the more prized ones.
The only thing I know about this subject is quoteing from my neighbor about similiar things is " I wouldn't make a good pimple on the arse of a master bowyer". I enjoy making hunting with my own bows but can't imagine what skill level it would take to be a master bowyer!
IMHO, since there is no exam, cert, etc.
A modern master bowyer would be determined by the best hunters/clients opinion of the quality of the work, and a certain level of reputation as a bowyer. I don't think that length of experience is as essential as quality of craftsmanship, durability, and uniqueness. In my business, many watchmakers and master horologists build unique timepieces and can repair or rebuild nearly any timepiece, antique or current.
A master bowyer is someone who has experience, skill, knowledge and the desire to pass that all along.