MY NEW LONGBOW BROKE THE 2ND TIME I DREW THE STRING BACK!
I asked about a company in Russelville, Alabama in another thread (http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic&f=125&t=003919#000000) ... well, I got the bow today.
Because it's getting late, and I have to get up at 05:00 tomorrow morning to start a new job...
Rather than give a lot of description, I'm going
to paste what I sent the person I bought it from into the next message below.
I got the bow today. Put the string on, drew it back, heard what I thought
might be cracking, let it back down, drew it back again & listened, and after
about 10 seconds it went SNAP!
I'm working on getting some pictures on my photo album site so you can
see the break. I would like a refund.
I will send a link to the pictures as soon as I finish uploading them to my
photo page.
I hope you will resolved this with a complete refund.
In the time while I was waiting for this bow I let a good deal on a Ben Pearson
longbow get away because I thought I already have a bow.
It has also taken me a lot of time to take the pictures and upload them.
I'm extremely disappointed.
Regards,
Mark Kanzler
Here is a link to the pictures.
You can click the thumbnails to see them larger.
You can view them in several sizes - Large is probably best.
WARNING - original will be huge and you will have to use the
scroll bars to see anything at all.
Here is the Link
http://www.pbase.com/mark_42/archery
Or, if that is too huge, use this and then click next
to see them one by one
http://www.pbase.com/mark_42/image/127405594/large
BTW, is a Flemish Bowstring supposed to have loose ends like this:
(http://www.pbase.com/mark_42/image/127406384/large.jpg)
(http://www.pbase.com/mark_42/image/127406385/large.jpg)
wow the grain on that looked horrible. i wouldnt have even drawn it seeing that. sorry though its always rough when that stuff happens. hopefully they can get you your refund. string looks like it was rushed when it was made too, usually the ends are diferent lengths so they fade into each other better.
The string looks like the cheap poly twine they give away at hardware stores to tie loads down with.
After it broke I looked at the wood and said to myself "This should never have been made into a bow".
I have worked wood all of my life and never would have used that for anything expected not to warp - especially anything that would ever be loaded in bending. I would have rejected it for a model airplane or a boat, and those aren't stressed very high normally.
I didn't think to inspect it before stringing it.
I figured it was professionally made, so didn't think to inspect for anything that obvious.
I doubt the builder ever drew the string back other than maybe once to measure draw weight.
I'm not happy.
Well, sorry for your misfortune, the backing was the problem for sure, can I ask one ? did you hold the bow back at full draw for 10 seconds? My advice would be to find a older glass backed longbow, if you look hard enough you can find one for about what you had in the hickory backed bow.
I'd say the 'bowyer' can make 'decorative' bows but not working ones. If you don't get satisfaction please post his particulars so we can avoid him.
Joel
Seeing where you bought it, file a claim and stick to it and follow all instructions and email reminders exactly. I have successfully gotten my money back through paypal, but it took a couple months. The seller never responded so I won by default.
Bummer. That is really a poorly chosen piece of wood for a bow. I would seriously question the maker's qualifications based solely on that piece. The string is a piece also.
I'll never forget the time I went to Cloverdale and there was a vendor selling selfbows. I talked to him a bit and he said the bow he had for sale was maybe his third bow and he had only been making bows for a couple months. It was not a good representation.
Thanks for sharing this.
that is exactly why i stopped selling wood bows. they make great gifts though. that string looks really crappy btw. really a b50 string might cost all of .50 in material.
Yep, a real lousy piece of backing.
Pretty sure the seller learned bow making from Jimmy Taylor then struck out on his own. He has been making bows for a number of years.
I would request a replacement or money back.
The guys who make these bows are set up with the right machinery to crank out a bow in about 15 minutes.
I watched Jimmy make a similar bow once. He ran the glue-up through a milling machine to taper the limbs, strung it up and tillered it(sorta) on a balloon sander followed by a trip through a polishing wheel to slick it up. Next he pulled the strung bow to 31" and guessed the poundage. If the bow didn't break on a 31" pull he boxed it and shipped it. Total time from start to ready to ship, a little less than 15 minutes.
At that time he had a pile of broken bows 6 feet high outside his shop.
Caveat emptor. No wonder some folks get a bad taste in their mouth for wooden bows.
My wife told me that my 14 yr old daughter looked at the broken bow today & said "I see why it broke" and then explained how the grain pattern made it weak (She knows nothing about woodworking, but is prone to those "Aha" type moments in a scientific intuitive sort of way).
If a 14 yr old who hasn't got any background in woodworking could see it, it's a bad piece of wood.
I probably would have tried it even if I saw it and had doubts. I would have assumed the guy who built it has done enough of them to know.
I have his phone number.
Gonna call him right now.
I just got off the phone with the lady who does the selling part (bowyer's wife I assume).
She was very nice, and even understanding about how disappointed I was after waiting in anticipation for my new bow and having it break.
She asked if I was the one who sent the pictures, so they are aware it broke. She said they could either send me another one, or a refund (though usually they just offer replacement). She said usually they don't have any problems, but every now and then "they get a bad piece of hickory". That was enough to tell me they don't know how to evaluate wood, and they don't test the bows well, if at all.
She said they will refund my money, but it may take a couple of days. (I paid via paypal, so it really shouldn't).
I hope they don't try to stiff me for the $17.99 shipping, but at least I wouldn't be out the whole $87.99
Right now, $88 is a stretch for my archery budget, so I guess I'll just tune up the old compound bow I built from a kit 30 years ago.
I've been told it's a Jennings Lightning (good in its day). I finally got some arrows on fleabay that shoot really nice and straight in it. I took off the sight, and intend to use it for instinctive shooting until I eventually gey a traditional bow, then I'll put the sight back on and it will be old technology, and whatever traditional bow I get will be ancient technology.
I'll keep you guys posted... I did see a recurve go for a good price while I was waiting for my longbow to arrive.
Anyone selling a hand made wooden bow for $88 as a business is cutting corners somewhere if they are making a profit. You can get a great vintage glass bow for that if you prowl the pawn shops and yard sales. Good luck.
This peice of wood should have been backed or preferrably used in the smoker for bbq, now a bow. I do not know why someone would have even wasted his time to make one such as this.
Actually, I think the backer is what failed.
It's hard to tell that it's laminated because there is no color contrast between layers.
I found one on the same auction site (the bad word filter keep censoring the name, not sure why, but I'm new & don't know the history).
If anyone wants to look at a few auctions for me, PM me & I'll try to narrow it down so as not to be too big of a PITA. I'm still trying to stay in my budget, and some of the older used ones (tried & true) might be safer than a new one that has no history.
I found one that says it's a longbow but looks like a recurve to me (maybe deflex/reflex?).
But it ends it about 15 hours, IIRC.
But it has zero bids so far, which worries me.
It's described as:
INDIAN ARCHERY RIGHT HANDED LONG BOW, 40#,60 INCH
Found another one... nice looking recurve.
Experienced bow (from descrip), but 63 pound draw.
I wonder if a longer string (less brace height) would get the draw weight into a range I could pull (about 50 lb... prob. not)
It sure is pretty though.
Every thought about making your own? If you work with wood in any capacity, and I believe you said you did, you can certainly fashion your won. Here's a thread I did to help folks in your shoes:
http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=125;t=002064
I would hesitate to buy a bow off fleabay for the very reason you have described in this thread. Rather, check out of the classifieds here on TradGang. Best of luck, and sorry about your bow.
Thanks!
I bookmarked that thread.
I'm looking at some commercially made recurve/longbows on fleabay. I found an Indian Archery Cochise that might be a good value if the bids stay low.
I'd love to build a bow, and have the skills and tools. I don't have the experience & knowledge, but from my general knowledge and experience, with guidance like what you offer, and the Traditional Bowyers Bible & other resources, I would probably have success within a couple of tries.
But I just started a new job with a nightmare commute, so the time is just not there until I move closer to work.
sorry it broke...but, if you decide on another wood bow you might do some reading on how to handle one before you get the new one. Wood bows are not like glass bows in that they need a little pampering...at least at first. I always have my students string their new bows and let them get use to being bent for a few minutes before ever pulling them back. Once they decide to start shooting, I have them exercise their new bow by short drawing it several times, drawing a little longer each time, until they reach full draw....and I never hold a wood bow at full draw. It takes wood time to learn to be a bow...
Glad you got it worked out.
Bob
BTW- a longer string will not drop the pounds on that auction site bow...
As said before, look on the classifieds here more than likely you won't be disappointed if you buy from here.
Good advise Bob.
Thanks for all the advice so far.
I guess I would have expected a bow builder to already do the basic break in... if I ever build my own, it'll be good to know how to ease it into life.
I'm shifting gears and looking for a more vintage bow from a reputable company like Ben Pearson, Bear, etc.
What other brands are generally a safe bet when buying an older used bow?
I'd like either a longbow, or a recurve without much curve to it - purely based on aesthetics. Maybe I have Errol Flynn imprinted on my brain?
I see an old Ben Pearson longbow up for auction...
It's described as
QuoteNice old 1950s vintage Ben Pearson 67 inch Long Bow with fiberglass face and leather grip. May have original string. Good condition for its age with no cracks or chips.
I wrote the seller to ask how long the wood arrows which are included are, and try to talk him into stringing it and measuring the draw weight for me.
But... is it too old to be trusted? :confused:
One of these days I'll just build my own.
I can't do any worse than the one I bought from Wolf.
Honestly I would never expect much for a 88 dollar handmade wooden bow.
How about some good ol' Trad Gang spirit here fellers if I could get some help on materials and or building I think we could just build this feller a bow that would be the envy of the guy who sold him a piece of fire wood.
What say ye Gang? In the spirit of the Gang I'm up for it, anybody else willing to pitch in something?
Stiks
I truly appreciate that, but hold off awhile.
I'm going to keep doing some searching, and if I give up in futility, I'll send a PM to you Stiks & you can see if there is something you can work out to put together something I could contribute the $88 I expect to get refunded from the broken bow.
On a positive note... I found a Darton Thunderstick in 25# that my daughter is going to have me bid on for her. It looks really nice, and it would be a huge step up from her little Bear Goblin that she bought a couple of weeks ago. Hopefully it will stay within her budget.
She's the one who started all of this - did archery at summer camp, then asked if she could have a bow. I told her she could if she bought it herself. I told her I'll loan her money for the Darton bow - she immedaitely asked if it was an interest free loan :D
Mark,
Keep an eye out in the PowWow for the youth bow give away every month posted by Vermonster13.
As far as the 88$, you might need that for arras. As far as holding off, Well you ain't been around the gang for very long and you will find out these are some of the best folks around and we don't let our trad buddies go wheelin if we can keep from it. :bigsmyl:
Stiks
shakespeare bows are good shooters if you can find one. i have a super necedah that shoots wonderfully.im sure there are alot of good shooting bows from the 50's out there still shooting today, i have an old ben pearson jet that has been through so much it literally would make most nervous to brace just from looking at it, but strung up she will fling arrows for probably another 10 years or more.
I almost bought an Indian Archery Commanche - but someone here recommended against that brand. He said some of their bows are built from lemonwood, and he's had one fail and has heard of more failures than some of the more respectable brands.
He did recommend a Shakespeare among a few on fleabay for sale. I watched the ones he recommended pretty close. But the nicer looking ones went out of my budget... and I really would like less recurve (Actually, I'd like a longbow - it's that Robin Hood thing - I got Errol Flynn imprinted in my memory).
The Commanche was a recurve with out a lot of curve to it - which made it look nice to me, but at the last minute I wised up and went with the advice I'd been given and let it go.
The Darton bow for my daughter is one I ran into when searching for myself... I did some Google research and found that they are well liked by people who have them. I think she'd be really happy with it - we are staying low in the bidding & may not win the auction, but I think she will want it badly enough not to want to wait (Now where could she have gotten that trait from?) :rolleyes:
If she doesn't win the auction I'll watch for the giveaway... My son is wanting to also upgrade, so maybe he can buy one from y'all
Mark,
How old are your younguns? I have a few osage staves that would make a great kids bow. All I need is a good excuse to make some yeller shavings. :bigsmyl:
Stiks
My Daughter (Elizabeth) is 14 & my Son (Drew) is 12.
If you want to do that... could they pay for the materials or at least part of them? I can get measurements of the kids for you, but let's talk about a price and all that. I really prefer them to buy things when it's not their birthday or Christmas - mainly so they appreciate and care for things.
My daughter may have her heart set on a recurve now after starting the process of watching the bow on fleabay (item=350383847183). I'll probe her brain a little.
I think Drew might like a longbow.
Let me ask them and see - I want to be sure their interest level would do justice to your generosity.
They both have bows they can work on proper form with for the time being, and I do think they would love to step up to a real bow, but I want to be sure they are committed.
Mark,
All I build is wood bows and most are longbows. I don't have any money in the wood I would use. I go cut it all myself. And even though I understand you teaching your kids a great lesson in life. I under no circumstances ever sell a bow I have made, I give them away as gifts or trade and if I made your younguns a bow it would be purely a gift.
Stiks
An Update:
I had to file a claim with PayPal & fleabay.
The seller is no longer answering my phone calls.
I have emailed them (I got the "Bowyer's" wife the one time they answered - I should have tried it w/o caller I.D.). Anyway, I say "them" because I don't know if I'm dealing with him or his wife.
It's hard to tell, because they have about 4 or 5 fleabay I.D.'s - almost all of which are new names applied to old accounts. They keep changing the seller names and rotating accounts in order to evade their negative feedback.
Sooner or later someone is going to get injured by one of their shoddy bows.
It really bothers me that there are people with such low morals that they will sell products that they know they are not qualified to produce.
I might have to contact the Better Business Bureau to try to slow down the amount of defective bows that are going into the market - it gives honest people a bad name when people don't know who to trust.
As counterpoint, I bought a nearly identical bow from this seller in mid-May. Rated as 45 - 50# at 28", it tested right on 45# at 28". I have run about 500 arrows through it, and I am pleased. I DID clean up the notches for the string loops to remove some angles that could wear the string; now the notches are smooth, compound curves.
I am very pleased with the bow. For $78 (what I paid for it at auction), it is the perfect bow for me, a Noob.
I have more than twice that amount into arrows, quiver, brace, and glove!
I'm glad it worked out for you - and I mean that.
I ended up having to go through a long process to file a claim in order to get my money back.
The seller first promised a refund, then later would not answer email (sent to their company website, paypal address, fleabay seller email address, and through the fleabay message system), and they ignored my phone calls.
I ended up losing $12 to send back the broken bow (I did save some shipping by folding it in half at the break and just wrapping it in brown butcher paper)
I later found that this seller has at least ten fleabay ID's (5 current names which all had previous ID names). They keep rotating the 10 names to avoid negative feedback. :confused:
Here is a list... and these are just the ones I could find by searching for their product in auctions:
Coyote-Archery (was formerly wolf-tech11):
Wolf_Archery (was formerly wolftech_archery):
k_kraft_nickknacks (was formerly snugglebugandkids):
singingwolf_flutes (was formerly striped_wolf_bows)
crystalcheeks_auctions (was formerly flyingeagle_bows)
I would advise anyone thinking of buying from them to run away as fast as possible.
BTW, my wife claims I have spent almost $1000 on archery equipment since then - but that includes stuff for the kids and tools to save money by assembling arrows.
I think it's really more like $400 to $500.
At least I got my $88 back for the broken bow.
And I'm very happy with the recurve I bought.
Nice work Mark! Glad things worked out in your favor, even if it took a month or so.
I agree; Terrible grain in the backing strip. Right in the middle of the limb too. Bummer!!
you get what you pay for
I wish I had gotten what I paid for.
Just a reasonable facsimile made from a piece of
wood with straight grain would have been acceptable.
I didn't pay for a piece of firewood that broke on
the first use.
Only just spotted this thread - I made the misatke of importing one of these bows to the UK from "Crystalcheeks" as you identifed below. Bow arrive split through riser. Awarded refund through papyal - on condition I return bow registered post at my expense - utltimately more than bow cost - wrote it off.
QuoteOriginally posted by M_Kanzler:
I'm glad it worked out for you - and I mean that.
I ended up having to go through a long process to file a claim in order to get my money back.
The seller first promised a refund, then later would not answer email (sent to their company website, paypal address, fleabay seller email address, and through the fleabay message system), and they ignored my phone calls.
I ended up losing $12 to send back the broken bow (I did save some shipping by folding it in half at the break and just wrapping it in brown butcher paper)
I later found that this seller has at least ten fleabay ID's (5 current names which all had previous ID names). They keep rotating the 10 names to avoid negative feedback. :confused:
Here is a list... and these are just the ones I could find by searching for their product in auctions:
Coyote-Archery (was formerly wolf-tech11):
Wolf_Archery (was formerly wolftech_archery):
k_kraft_nickknacks (was formerly snugglebugandkids):
singingwolf_flutes (was formerly striped_wolf_bows)
crystalcheeks_auctions (was formerly flyingeagle_bows)
I would advise anyone thinking of buying from them to run away as fast as possible.
A few of the replies found on this post represent the very worst, most ignorant type of people any specialized subsection of an activity have to offer IE FLY fishing or TRADITIONAL archery. I have owned and happily shot one of these Wolf bows for going on 7 years. It is a 72", 55#@28" longbow and will fling a 600 grain 2117 arrow 160fps. The limbs have developed a nice 2" string follow, giving some cushion to the long heavy limbs upon release. When I am shooting well, I don't own a bow that I shoot better group with. The finish was poor and I refinished it. The design is simple and time tested. How many glass laminated recurves have had poor quality materials slip through to the consumer and fail? Many fly fisherman would refuse to fish with anything less than a Sage or Orvis and the traditional archery crowd has the capacity for the same mentality; if you can't afford a black widow you don't deserve to shoot a longbow. BS.
I read that 2 different people had a major problem with these bow and 2 different people have defended them. Does my simple mind calculate correctly that it is safe to say that whomever is making/selling these bows has about a 50% success rate?
You know I think the bottom line here for me Mike is that anyone who's built a wood bow knows there is no way you could sell a properly made wood bow for $88 and make enough money to feed yourself.
It just takes too long to do all the work, you'd be lucky to make minimum wage before you even consider material costs, and tools, disposables like sandpaper.
I figure a properly finished bow, appropriate for a gift or for sale (I DO NOT sell wood bows) will probably take 20-30 hours plus days of finishing time ....
I concur with that 100% Ben. And not to mention all the hours added if you raise a splinter and have to repair, or even worse, blow it up and have to start over!
QuoteOriginally posted by M_Kanzler:
An Update:
I had to file a claim with PayPal & fleabay.
The seller is no longer answering my phone calls.
I have emailed them (I got the "Bowyer's" wife the one time they answered - I should have tried it w/o caller I.D.). Anyway, I say "them" because I don't know if I'm dealing with him or his wife.
It's hard to tell, because they have about 4 or 5 fleabay I.D.'s - almost all of which are new names applied to old accounts. They keep changing the seller names and rotating accounts in order to evade their negative feedback.
Sooner or later someone is going to get injured by one of their shoddy bows.
It really bothers me that there are people with such low morals that they will sell products that they know they are not qualified to produce.
I might have to contact the Better Business Bureau to try to slow down the amount of defective bows that are going into the market - it gives honest people a bad name when people don't know who to trust.
Going back a few years I used Fleabay. Never sold my wares, they were online for about 2 weeks. Cost me like $20.00. I thought well if I ever post anything else and don't sell it, then it don't make much economic sense to list on Fleabay. I will never buy or list anything on Fleabay ever again, don't care if its Golden Tiddly Winks selling for pennies. Craiglist in another site that Scammers use.
I only list and buy in local Classifieds now, that way I deal with people by email first, then phone, then in person.
I had sold 3-4 items back in March no problems.
Kinda tough deal to be slingin' remarks like that around BWallace.
i dont see any malice or elitism in any of the posts on this thread- i went back and re-read them all.
people are stating well founded opinions and facts.
read Bens post again- thats the answer right there! :readit: :readit:
a fact of life is that you usually get what you pay for, and i might hazard a guess to say a mass produced $88 bow is probably not as well made as a more purpose built bow. but then any bow can break at any point- look back thru the posts on here- lots of broken bows!!!!
i am really glad that M_Kanzler got it sorted out, and that it ended well--truly i am!! :)
i think the real issue here was the apparent scamming attitude and business ethic of the selllers NOT that the bow was a cheaper bow!!!!!
ps. sorry i missed the reference to the "black widow bow" :dunno: