After yesterday's schooling RE splitting I'm looking at my red oak boards with new appreciation.
I've got two 1x2's and the beginnings of a design in my head. What I'd like is a 5.5 ft., 45 lb., unbacked centershot flatbow.
Thinking out loud, centershot means the handle can't bend and 5.5 ft. means I need either a bendy handle or really good tillering.
Any comments or suggestions?
Joel
66" isnt so short that its undoable. my sisters bow is 65" and its got an arrow pass/rest cut into it. as long as you tiller it carefully you should be ok. of course"centershot" implys you are gonna cut it to center. really this isnt needed, youd be surprised the diference even a 1/2" deep rest makes. your boards would have to be perfect to be unbacked in my opinion, just for insurance cus you never know.. that being said there are alot of really nice backing options. if you want something minimal try brown paper, you can even stain it with wood stain, and it actually looks pretty good. my shortest bow is 60", pulls 50#@28, bend through handle. its about as simple as you could get really, its kind of a red oak board selfbow.lol
I want to shoot a wide range of arrows hence the cutting. If a short riser reinforces the center, and I go for a 1/2" or so rest, my spine options increase, no?
As for a backing, I can plane my own strip but species is the limiting factor. I have basswood, which is bendy, and alder, and poplar. How would a 1/8" thick back from these woods perform?
Joel
you can glue on an 8 inch handle piece and have an arrow pass cut in. it does indeed give you more options with arrow spine. just be sure the rest is cut int the thickest part fo the handle/fade transition. as for the backings, i know poplar wont work, but am unsure about basswood and alder. maple will work, given the grain is very straight. if you havent read it yet you should look up sam harpers site, he has instructions for a red oak board bow that uses 1x2", it was what i built my board bows off of for awhile before i figured out what style i liked making. red alder has a specific gravity of .41, and gray alder has a sg of .47. this is pretty low, compared to red oaks sg of59 so im not so sure it would make a very good backing.
thought id share this link with you. its a reference with some information about various woods, it has specific gravities listed and some notes on various woods. http://www.briskybows.com/choosingwoods.htm
Dublin,
i have made several 68" red oak bows, with pecan backings, 10" riser, and cut them to within a 1/16th of center.
where in TX r u? You should be able to get Hickory or Pecan at most lumberyards. Maple and Elm will work if straight grained, Can even use White Oak (been trying to see what live oak will do, myself). But don't forget linen, silk, and brown paper. I didn't believe the paper would work till i tried it, but it does. I made a kids bow for a friend 48" t-t of red oak, who let someone else handle his kids bow, it was supposed to be 17" draw, well it was overdrawn to adult full draw and the brown paper saved this guys face. it cracked and hinged, but stayed in one piece, and even shot some more.
Try it. Post pics.
I just remembered I have a really nice oak board I found in the stacks while looking for something else. What say we try it together?
We'll both learn something. I have a bow or two to finish up this week but I'm spending some time in the shop this weekend. Might get to it then.
A synchronized buildalong. That'd be new, huh?
sounds like a cool idea john, ill certainly watch the board for updates on it. ill be back to red oak boards here very soon, as a matter of fact i have a laminate right now thats red oak. sorta experimental but worst case scenario is it breaks and i lose some more scrap.lol.
Joel, I made a red oak board bow with poplar backing this past winter. I broke Monday. I tried shortening it to add weight and didn't retiller right away. I shot it too soon. Shot well until I cut the tip from the lower limb. This bow also had a 1/2" arrow shelf cut into it.
Live and learn.
Stan
Loren, I'm between Comanche and Stephenville. I wish we had a better variety of lumber to choose from around here but I'll drive the 100 miles to Ft. Worth to get some straight-grained hickory one of these days.
John, I have two red oak boards so I'm up for messing with one of them. Do you want to go for something approaching centershot, with a minimal riser, and about 66" long?
Stan, how did the poplar perform as a backing?
Joel, I planed the poplar on a jointer to 1/8" and after glue up I sanded it a little thinner. I felt it held up pretty well.
I bought the poplar because I thought it was birch. After buying, I read where poplar wasn't a very good choice.
The bow failed above the top fade. Broke straight across. Looking back I now believe the tiller was probably what went wrong
Plan to use poplar again. It's easy to work with.
Stan
Sounds good to me. I just glued my riser on and laid out the bow. I'll cut it out tonight and we'll see where we are.
this was red oak with pecan backing, 68" t-t. It is a hair under 2" at the fades, and straight taper to 1/2 at the tips. You can see the Ipe strip in the riser, was just experimenting, but it is cut to center. 10" riser, 2" fades
(http://i923.photobucket.com/albums/ad74/lorenholland/devinsriser.jpg)
I put this handle overlay on it to match the tip overlays. Not necassary since there was no splice to cover, but it rounded out the handle nicely.
(http://i923.photobucket.com/albums/ad74/lorenholland/devinsoverlay.jpg)
Anyways, the point of the pictures was to show a red oak board bow cut to center, in hte weight range and pull that you specified, although it is 3 inches longer.
Wow, Loren, I had no idea the flat board could be cut into that much with only a little riser for reinforcement. This opens a world of design options to me wherein I can experiment with making arrows.
The bow looks good, too, by the way.
Joel,
What draw length are you looking for?
OK, here is my experiment. I have made maybe 5 red oak board bows mainly from Ferret\\'s Board Bow Instructions (http://sticknstring.webs.com/ferretsboardbow.htm) . I just kinda winged thios one. It's basic pyramid, 2" at the fades to 1/2" nocks, 65" NTN, 6" riser section.
(http://sticknstring.webs.com/photos/2010-Pictures/2010board01.jpg)
(http://sticknstring.webs.com/photos/2010-Pictures/2010board02.jpg)
I thinned the limbs to 7/16" assuming that would make 45# at 26".
(http://sticknstring.webs.com/photos/2010-Pictures/2010board03.jpg)
(http://sticknstring.webs.com/photos/2010-Pictures/2010board04.jpg)
Here's the tiller straight off the bandsaw.
(http://sticknstring.webs.com/photos/2010-Pictures/2010board05.jpg)
Not bad. The problem is she's only 35# :( Should have gone with 1/2" thickness.
Here's the handle, almost centershot.
(http://sticknstring.webs.com/photos/2010-Pictures/2010board06.jpg) (http://sticknstring.webs.com/photos/2010-Pictures/2010board07.jpg)
And the unstrung pic. 1" of set after 40 shots. She shoots a light arrow pretty nicely. Might have to finish this one and find a deserving youngster or someone who wants a lighter bow.
(http://sticknstring.webs.com/photos/2010-Pictures/2010board08.jpg)
John, when I can I like to draw 29". Since I want a shorter bow, though, I'm going to go for 26".
You got through that one quick. I didn't even go into the shop these past two days, went fishing and stayed in the A/C instead. Sorry for the double buildalong not being simultaneous. I'll go out today, though, mark it out and glue on a riser. Pics to follow.
That tiller right off the bandsaw pic is impressive. In TBB vol 1 or 2 it says a bow can be built from a board in an hour and I'm believing it now. You must have a pretty good bandsaw. Mine's a benchtop model which is great for small stuff but not so much anything over an inch or so. The cut won't stay perpendicular to the table. I'm selling a Toyota to get a real bandsaw, preferably one like this, along with some accessories:
http://www.grizzly.com/products/17-2-HP-Bandsaw-Polar-Bear-Series/G0513P
I think it can resaw some logs, don't you?
Are you going to cut into another one of your red oak boards?
That's a horse of a saw. Should do you well!
Sharp, high quality blades, and a well-tuned saw are the keys to efficient wood removal with the band saw. Don't learn how to make bows that way though. It's really more fun with hand tools. I was just experimenting here and I have used a bandsaw a lot. Take your time and enjoy the ride.
I've marked out a proposed cutaway on this 3/4"x1 1/2"x6' red oak board.
(http://i1033.photobucket.com/albums/a411/DublinJoe/ShortOak02.jpg)
With a riser glued on between the outermost lines (7") I'll have a 4" grip and reinforcement of the arrow shelf area.
I placed the arrow shelf 3/4" above center lengthwise and in the center horizontally.
Does this look kosher?
I'd say 1-1/2" wide is too narrow for 66" NTN drawn to 26"+. I suspect you will end up with t alot of string follow. I'd get the bow tillered before worrying about the handle.
Yeah, you're right.
Saving the handle for last, do you think this design is sufficient for 72" ntn?
Yes
I got to work today. It's 71" ntn and 1 1/2" at the fades. I've gone for centershot so from the front it looks doomed. The riser is mahogany. Let me know if the squared off bottom is a bad thing. I didn't want too much stiffness so I went minimalist.
(http://i1033.photobucket.com/albums/a411/DublinJoe/ShortOak03.jpg)
For the grip I'm copying a mortising chisel which feels good in the hand. I won't shape it until after tillering.
(http://i1033.photobucket.com/albums/a411/DublinJoe/ShortOak04.jpg)
(http://i1033.photobucket.com/albums/a411/DublinJoe/ShortOak05.jpg)
The limbs are tapered along the edges and the belly. Since my bandsaw isn't that good for true cuts I taper cut everything on the tablesaw. This method removes nearly all the frustration I'd experienced previously.
(http://i1033.photobucket.com/albums/a411/DublinJoe/ShortOak06.jpg)
It's bending a couple of inches on the floor so I cut nocks before closing up shop. Tomorrow I'll put the long string on it and get started, hopefully ending with the short string before the mosquitoes take over.
Joel
Dublin,
Don't worry about the cutting the rest till you get tillered. you can pick the looser limb for the top and save yourself some work and draw weight.
notice the difference in profile between yours and John's bows. John chose a classic centered handle, with tapers on both sides from the fade into the handle. Even though he achieves close to center, he can't cut all the way to center, because he has reduce both sides of the handle. (there is nothing wrong with this, it is a great looking bow. i think its easier to glue on a leather rest when using this design than to cut a rest)Also notice that John's design allows him to use a shorter riser. his is 8".
Your bow is dangerously thin around the rest, because you tapered into the handle from the side opposite the rest also, and you cut to center at the same time as tapering in from the other side. your design requires a longer riser, because there is less taper into the riser width wise (which on John's bow kinda doubles as a cut out for a rest, and gets him closer to center) on your bow you have to start the cut out for the rest at the thickest part of the riser. Don't cut your rest while the thickness of the riser is fading into the belly.
i may have decieved you with the picture. Yes, you can cut a good ways into a board. I still leave an inch all the way around the rest though. I do that by not tapering in from the opposite side, leaving about an inch (or half of the fade width, depending on the density of the wood). i use a circle template to draw in 1 inch all the way around the rest at every angle. then i shape the locator grip around those marks. this way you can cut to center, still insure safety, and make the most use of the space within your riser for a grip.
hope that makes sense. i will try to find a picture of marking the rest, its hard to write out what i can see in my head sometimes;)
oh, i use the tablesaw in the way you describled also...my band saw is a POS
Last, the squared off bottom part of the riser is a new one to me.I don't know what to say. it doesn't give you a bottom fade. I think you might pop off the riser from the bottom limb.on the other hand if you fade into the board itself (which is what i do usually, instead of adding a tri-lam to insure the riser stays attached to the core/belly)it might work, but you will have to insure that the handle doesn't bend, or you will have trouble.
ive built bows from 1x2's and all of them were between 60 and 72 inches, the most set one took was 1 3/4", which still isnt too bad. longer bows are better starting out, but theres no reason you couldnt have gone with a 66" bow IMO. my bows however arent pyramid design so john may very well be right about that if yours is. also i gotta agree about the shelf, i dont do any shaping of the handle till very last, this way the bow can really pick its own top limb. sits better in the tillering tree too.
I hear ya, guys. I knew better but did it any way and lost a little sleep over what I'd done to that OK red oak board.
This morning I went out and ripped that riser off then sanded down to bare belly. As I type this there's a 12" x 1/2" riser of the stiffest wood I had glued and clamped on. I'll follow it with another 1/2" piece, a little shorter, then get to tillering. Once that's done I'll mark and cut the fades and recut the arrow shelf which will still go right to the center. I'll leave it 72" overall to keep enough working limb for a decent draw length.
I'll be keeping the damage to the back where I cut in, as well as the oval grip, but it shouldn't affect anything if the entire center section of the bow doesn't bend, right?
you should be ok with what you have, but if you can id pull it during tillering with a string from back a bit just to be safe. you shouldnt be disapointed in it if it makes it, one of my very favorite bows is a red oak longbow, full 6' long, very sweet shooting, accurate, and feels very light in the hand for its length. i do the majority of my red oak bows from the basic design on sam harpers site, although i change the dimensions of the tapers from bow to bow depending on the length. ideally i leave the limbs full width out to about an inch or two past midlimb, then taper to 1/2" or less nocks from there. since red oak isnt great in compression i think this really helps give it more working inner and midlimb to keep set at a minimum, and so far i havent had a single bow that disapointed. pyramid layouts are great for true 2" and wider boards, because they have enough wood to take the stress close to the fades, allowing set to localize there instead of over the entire limb. not saying you cant build a more narrow pyramid, as a matter of fact im working on a laminate pyramid red oak right now as an experiment in some techniques. 12" is fairly long for a riser joel, ive never done one longer than 10", and after that one i started using 8"riser/handle sections. ideally you want to retain more working limb, at the same time giving yourself just enough strength at center to provide for cut in shelves. with a 12" riser you would be looking at about 3 inch fades and a 6 inch handle,or 2 inch fades and an 8 inch handle. really you can go as small as 1 3/4" to 2" fades. when i do a riser or handle glued on i use every part of that riser for a specific purpose, so i can make smaller handles, for example, the bottom half of a 4" handle and the fade attached to it becomes the section of the handle which rests in my palm, and the top half has the shelf shaped in, with a dish between the two for a locator. all the curves are smoothed out and eventually blend into the fades. not trying to preach but i thought it might help elaborate on how i see the mix between form and function for handles and explain what you can do with them.
Thanks, Richard. It's the "form and function" thing I'm learning today. I know the 12" is long but with only 1/2" left after the shelf was cut in I wanted to isolate the area.
Thanks, too, for the variations on fades and handle. I think I already kind of knew that but something clicked as I read it.
Joel
no problem, just trying to help by sharing what has worked for me, ive built primarily out of red oak 1x2" 's for awhile now, it can be a very challenging wood to work with when you start varying designs and dimensions. your handle should hold up just fine, although i have to say i once removed a handle and replaced it with another, and the glue lines on the fades show slight signs of it bending slightly there, but i think this is because the bow had already been tillered so the wood was already compressed. i dont worry about it failing though, its been a solid shooter since i built it.
Richard probably said it better than me, about using all of the riser. the one in my pic was a 10" riser. 4" for your hand, 2" for the rest, 2" for each fade. you can go shorter when you blend a fade into the grip, like he mentioned.
i have screwed up a grip before, sanded it off, a glued on another. it is harder to end up with a good glue line, unless the second riser ends up with slightly smaller dimesions