Alright. I read 4est Trekkers tut.......three times thoroughly and probably 2 more times in pieces :biglaugh:
Let me first state that I have not shot a bow in probably 5 years. I have several friends that bowfish, and I would like to get into it as well. Being as I am a hobbyist woodworker, and a cheapskate, I try to do everything for myself if I can. I got to looking around at making a bow and stumbled across this site. I had read the other sites commonly referenced on the forums for board from a bow techniques. For some reason, this tutorial pushed my limits and made me decide to try it out.
I'm a left handed shooter, and a used bow would have still cost me more than I wanted to spend even if I could find a left handed one, so what the heck, right?
I do a lot of woodturning, and I have quite a few exotics laying around because of that. I made the trip to Menard's and looked through ALL of the 1x4x8' and found nothing to my fancy. Then I checked the 1x6x8' and found a couple. I then got to thinking, and remembered that I was going to put a different wood riser and reflex tips on it, so the 8' wasn't necessary. So I checked out the 6' boards and within 5 minutes I found 2 boards that to me looked perfect according to the tutorial. I bought them both in case I screwed up the first :rolleyes:
Ok, so I'll post where I'm at so far with it, and the pics will be throughout. Please, please, PLEASE offer any advice, ideas, or concerns you come up with along the way. I want this to come out right if I can. I am kind of lost at the step I am at right now.
Here is the wood I am using: Red oak 1x4x6', 1.5" square Bocote, Osage orange, maple, and aromatic cedar.
I thought the grain on the oak looked just like the board in the guide, so I jumped on it.
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f112/woody350ep/First%20bow/100_4388.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f112/woody350ep/First%20bow/100_4391.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f112/woody350ep/First%20bow/100_4392.jpg)
Here is the Bocote I am using on the reflexed tip glue up.
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f112/woody350ep/First%20bow/100_4393.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f112/woody350ep/First%20bow/100_4394.jpg)
An end grain view of the osage for the tip overlays
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f112/woody350ep/First%20bow/100_4396.jpg)
I went through the steps as described with a few changes. I am going to make a shaped handle like I have seen on recurves and carve an arrow rest into the handle, so I built a little extra on the riser. I have a 1/2" piece of maple and then a 3/4" piece of cedar, as seen below. The changes I have made to the design are that I made the bow 70", the width is 2-1/2", and the riser is 11" long. Also, I made the reflexed tips a bit bigger. Instead of the 6" I made them 8" long, and with a height of 1.5" instead of the 3/4" from the original. I was hoping this wouldn't weaken the tips too much, but decided it was worth a try.
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f112/woody350ep/First%20bow/100_4400.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f112/woody350ep/First%20bow/100_4403.jpg)
Here are some pics of day 2 results. I have the whole thing cut out proud of the lines, and ready to start rasping on the next day.
A close up of the tips and the bocote
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f112/woody350ep/First%20bow/100_4407.jpg)
And an overall of the bow.
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f112/woody350ep/First%20bow/100_4409.jpg)
The riser up close as well.
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f112/woody350ep/First%20bow/100_4410.jpg)
Next is after the third round of work. I got everything down to 15/32" using 4est's caliper idea. Actually it worked out great. The line I made was a bit more proud than I thought, and I was probably every bit of 1/2" thick. When I used the calipers, the flexibility changed quite a bit.
Here I hit the tips with a bit of denatured alcohol to give the grain some character for the picture. It is coming out well IMO so far. The Osage will tip this off when the time comes.
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f112/woody350ep/First%20bow/round2100_4413.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f112/woody350ep/First%20bow/round2100_4415.jpg)
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f112/woody350ep/First%20bow/round2100_4416.jpg)
Now here comes the part where I am needing some guidance. I made this tiller today with the AMO standards in mind. It is not ideal, but it works for me. My basement is tiny, and my hobbies are space consuming :D
Anyhow, this is coming straight down from a beam and it was the best place I had to get a decent view of it. My house was build in 1905 and there are jack posts all over holding the darn thing up haha. With that in mind, please accept that the post on the left will always be obstructing the view, and I cannot move it unless I want 105 years of dust and wood coming down on me :(
I did the long tiller string thing. I cut some leather and poked holes in it, tied the string on, and it hung at 12" before the limbs wanted to bend. From what I have read, I want to tiller to 10" of movement before bracing it. Well, I was doing it 1" at a time, flexing it 20-30 times before moving on to the next slot. I took some measurements, and that is what is to follow.
it pulled 28# @ 20"
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f112/woody350ep/First%20bow/round2100_4419.jpg)
Then 30# @ 21"
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f112/woody350ep/First%20bow/round2100_4420.jpg)
And finally 33.5# @ 22"
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f112/woody350ep/First%20bow/round2100_4421.jpg)
I didn't need to remove any wood to get it to pull to the 10" of travel. Did I do something wrong, or did I just get lucky? It only creaked at the tips because the rope was rubbing the sides. Everything else was moving nicely.
Should I be going further down? The rope I used was tight at 13" after all of that, so I gained an inch in the rope I think. I didn't go any further because I wasn't sure if it was the rope stretch or if it was the set in the bow. I based the 10" movement off of the initial tight point before any flexion was done.
So, now, I haven't put any nocks in yet. Am I at the point that I need to brace it and tiller it to final draw? If so, I obviously need to put some kind of knock in to put the string on.
What about the look of the tiller from the photos? As I am a rookie, I thought this sucker looked pretty darn perfect so I didn't touch anything. This is the same as it looked after rounding the edges. Should I remove anything anywhere, and if not, what areas would you think I will run into adjustment issues after the proper string is on?
Thanks for ANY help you can give. I am REALLY enjoying this so far, and I hope I can end up with something successful. My buddy has been wanting pictures of the progress, and he has already said he wants me to build him one. I told him not to count his chickens just yet, as my eggs haven't even hatched :biglaugh:
Oh, I almost forgot. What about the draw weight? Given the weight it is at at 10" travel, would there be a guess as to what it might end up around at 29" draw? My scale only goes to 55# so if it is above that, I won't know it. I don't think it will be, but I am merely speculating. There is no education in that guess :rolleyes:
You barely have it pulled to brace height in that last pic. It's still too heavy. Reduce weight and get it strung to a 4" or so brace height (distance from handle to string).
The long string just gets you started in the right direction. It's the short string where you can really weigh it and get to your target. Your target should be less than 50# for a first bow. You won't want much more than that for bowfishing anyway.
Ok, so do you mean to reduce weight on the long string? That means I would be getting more than 10" off that same long string, right?
By reducing weight I assume you are referring to taking material off the belly. Given the picture, what kind of tool should I use to reduce the weight? Rasp, file, sureform, sandpaper? This is where I was a little confused and didn't wanna do something wrong. I have found things about tillering trees, but not so much on the removal of materials.
Thanks for the input
thats a good looking bow so far.
at this point just use a small rasp or scraper to remove wood slowly from the belly to lower the weight and each time you remove some wood check the tiller and gently work the limbs to break them in, but never pull more than the weight your shooting for. when you get the limbs moving really good then go to a short string.
Ok, so am I confusing myself on the 10" long string thing? It would be ok to keep it on there and draw it further than 10" before moving on?
Would there be a certain weight of draw to be looking for when I get it pulled to brace height before switching to the short string?
As you can tell, this is definitely my first time :confused:
I'm still new but have two red oak shooters under my belt.
It's my understanding that you want to use the long string to get to brace height then switch to the short string for the remainder of the build.
Look up the tillering gizmo and use it, and the tillering stick is better than the tree for this. The gizmo simply marks flat sections so you can reduce them and get the bend spread evenly over the length of the limb. With such a long riser you'll have less working limb and given that you don't want the last 4-6 inches of the tips bending much (if at all) an even tiller is critical.
When reducing weight I use a Nicholson #49 rasp to remove squiggly pencil marks (so I get the entire width) then scrape it smooth then gradually exercise the limbs again on the tree/stick.
As for draw weight... I don't think the long string is used in this. Once you're on the short string you will pull to your desired weight early, say within 12 inches. The tillering keeps this weight but extends the draw length needed to get there. For bowfishing you shoot a pretty heavy arrow/line (compared to target archery) so I'd aim for 40# or so.
When you've removed belly wood to achieve a smooth bend, AND reached your target weight when pulling about 27" (for your 29" draw) you need to do your cosmetic sanding. This will drop your weight a little, but not much. The last inch should be achieved when shooting in the bow.
Pay attention to getting the bend to start at the end of your riser because the more limb that bends, the less it's bending in any one area and the less chance you have of failure.
Good luck and post pics as you gain draw length; there are some masters here with great eyes and big hearts who'll make your bow better than you can on your own.
Joel
Woody you're doing excellent so far bro. The cedar may be a lil soft for my personal preference, but with your bocote tips, you should end up with a sweet bow.
As far as where you're at now, well you'll get different opinions on what to do next. Me personally, I cut string grooves and start tillering big time with the short string. I mount a 4x24 belt sander on it's side on my workbench (I don't have an edge sander and can't build one just yet either) and I start to take 1/32-1/26" off at a time.
I made some thickness markers out of an old hockey stick cause much like you, i like to use what I have that's why i saved it! lol Thought I had pics of the lil markers but basically I drilled holes 1/16" different from each other in something the has a 90 degree corner (in this case the shaft part of the plastic hockey blade in which I cut first to get a lil square tube piece and then down the axis of the sq. tube to get 2 u-shaped pieces, then I lopped off a leg on each one to get 2 L-shaped pieces) where I can stick a pencil in the hole, mount my lil marker on the back of the bow, and slide her down the limb. Then I sand to my new line making sure not to leave any valleys that will surely produce a hinge.
Careful cutting your sight window as to not to leave too little material in the handle. You'll either get bend through the handle or it'll simply fail there.
So don't be afraid to cut your string grooves now. I know some guys like to wait a while to cut em but I don't know when to move a string groove anyway so at this point ingnorance is somewhat bliss.
I used bocote on my second bow and is one of my best choices for resiliant tips.
(http://i872.photobucket.com/albums/ab283/jonnoocha/5.jpg)
Thanks, I was planning on using a gizmo, but didn't think I was there yet. Also, I don't have a belt sander. I had one, but it broke within a day and I took it back. Maybe I'll snatch up another for this. Unfortunately I don't have any scrapers either, and I wouldn't know what the difference is in the rasps I have. They all seem pretty aggressive, but with either curved or flat faces.
You can make a scraper out of all kinds of things but if you live near a woodworking retailer I'd buy one; they're less than $10. You sharpen them at 90 degrees then burnish the edges to pull a burr. If they weren't the best tool I wouldn't push you to get one.
You're right about the gizmo coming a little later but once you start bending for real a few scrapes can make a measureable difference.
As for the rasps I'd say if they work, they work. You can always take off more wood so go slowly. Generally, the rounded sides are more aggressive.
You can use a rasp alone, rather than following up with a scraper, then make the finer adjustments with sandpaper and patience.
I do have a store nearby. Maybe I'll check them out tomorrow. I'm pretty sure they're closed today. I guess I'll wait to do anything until then.
Could I make a scraper out of some aluminum flashing? I wouldn't think that would be stiff enough, but I have it...
You can buy a set of scapers for around 15.00 and it will be well worth the investment.
You are gonna need them cause this ain't gonna be your last bow you build I promise.
The worst part is that I have been ready to move on since yesterday, and now I can't do anything today because I don't have a scraper :mad: :banghead:
A knife can be used to scrape too.
The thing is you want to remove wood and so long as you're not taking off too much at once almost anything will work.
If you have any rough sandpaper that will work, just use a block so as not to take wood off the edges more than the center.
I forgot to mention earlier that sharp edges allow splinter to lift. From pretty early on you should round them all over; somewhere I read that nothing about a bow is supposed to be sharp/sudden/angular... something like that.
Take this time to read about preparing and using a scraper since sharpening them is not exactly intuitive. You can make a tillering stick to go with your tree, and a gizmo too.
I think I'm confused on what a tillering stick was. I was under the impression that it was just a different name for a tillering tree.
I was thinking about using a razor blade to do some scraping. I also read about using an old backsaw to make one, but I don't really have anything to burnish the edge with. I might use some scissors, razor blades, or a knife. It will all depend on my patience level :D
The tillering stick has grooves for the string to go into, keeping the bow drawn. The tree usually has pulleys but can't hold the draw on its own.
The stick has its uses, especially allowing you to use the gizmo, take pics, and back off for a different viewpoint. Holding the draw, though, isn't the best for the bow so many use only the tree. If only for short periods the stick is OK, but I'd stop using it once I got into the last third or so of tillering.
The razor blade won't take off much wood at all, not nearly as much as 60 grit paper. Vanillabear's not alone in using a screwdriver. What I've read says to oil it (1 drop or so) and pull or push in one direction at about a 5 degree angle to draw the burr. You don't want to push too hard, just enough to raise a burr you'll feel when drawing your finger across it. Also, if you're pushing too hard any slip can mean a pretty good slice.
Keep asking questions, and reading, because I'm still new to bow making and most of my learning has come from reading other people's posts.
Joel
I'd use a rasp. Scribe a line on the side of the limbs about 1/16" from the belly. Rasp down to that. Go slow and be careful. Don't dish out any spot. Slow, easy and consistent wood removal.
Don't use razor blades to scrape. Find a thick knife and hold it at 90 degrees and pull thin curls off the belly.
Thanks guys. My tiller tree that I made doesn't have pulleys. I use a 50lb fish scale for the weight, and the holes on my tree are to accept a peg I turned on the lathe out of some Cumaru, a nice solid wood. I can just pop it in and out for the next spot pretty easily.
I think I have some 80 grit paper in discs. If not, then I have 100 grit that I might have to end up using. I'll bust out one of my old buck knives to scrape with too.
I appreciate the help so far.
Oh, and John, really? Do you think I need to take a full 1/16" off? I was under the impression that the removal would be minimal since the initial tutorial stated 15/32" I assumed that since the number was broken down into 32nds that it was only shaving small bits off afterwards.
Alright, I went down and had at it with some 80 grit sandpaper and a block of wood to help identify the high and low spots on the bow. I also wrapped a string around the tips when pulled to 22" and pulled it tight. The string crossed over at right about the 6" hole.
Anyhow, after the suggestions to get it to brace height before going to the short string, I decided to try and do that, but I'm not sure I went about it in the right way.
The string has stretched out a bit, being slack at ~13.5" so I worked it and got it pulled to 24". It was 36.5# the first draw. Then I used a mock gizmo and used the light behind the gap to judge the gaps. I went through several sanding sessions and testing and now it goes an even 35#@24"
The limbs were pretty stiff at the fades compared to the rest, so that is where I removed a bulk of material. It was there and where the limbs start to go into the reflex area. I shouldn't have much movement past there, right?
Now, I checked the brace height again, and it is just below the 6" hole on my tree. I take this to mean that with a short string, the brace would be about 4-1/4", right?
John had suggested to get it to 4" brace before going to short string, which I would be at.
What should I be doing here? Should I just keep sanding to remove weight at the current draw length until the brace gets higher, or will that not happen? I would think that by removing more material it would just lower the draw weight at the specified length, right?
I snapped a picture of it for reference.
Thanks for helping me get through this!
(http://i46.photobucket.com/albums/f112/woody350ep/35at24lineat6.jpg)
I'm glad to try to help and I know I can be a little wordy. If I can raise a topic which others can clarify, reinforce, or correct, I'm getting the benefit too.
Anyway, I'm thinking you should be braced before you try to refine anything. If your string is stretching, lowering your brace height, simply adjust by twisting or move the timber hitch a little.
If you tiller on the long string you have a greater chance of developing a hinge once you switch to the short string. The geometry is different between the two. The short string will exert force differently and what looked good can look not so good.
I would brace with short string, even at a lower than final height and use it for tillering, putting the long one away.
Removing wood will lessen the draw weight at that particular length, yes.
The brace height is not a constant. It is whatever the short string makes it, and it changes with adjustments to the short string.
A fistmele is the traditional measure of what your brace height should be. This is the distance from the belly of the bow to the string as measured by the "thumbs up" gesture. It should allow your fletching to clear the bow while an arrow is nocked. It can be increased or decreased to fine tune hand shock, wrist slap, etc. A lower height allows more of the energy stored by the bow to be transferred to the arrow, rather than being locked in the flexed limbs. Jawge said somewhere to make it as low as possible, so long as your fletching is clear of the bow and you're not getting slapped. (Forgive me, Jawge, if I'm misrepresenting your advice.)
I see a Sureform and a rasp or two on your bench so you'll be fine. It's looking good to me.
Oh, are your markings measured from the belly of the bow, or from the point where your grip sits on the tree? I'm not sure whether it's supposed to be from the back or the belly but I know it's not supposed to be from the back of the grip.
I have one more thought...
Google Books lets you read parts of the Traditional Bowyer's Bibles, volumes 1-4. I recommend these books, especially volume one on tillering.
Jawge is a member here and helps a lot of people. His site is http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/archer.html
Thanks. I have heard of those books, but I can't find them in the library. I might have to see if Barnes and Noble has them and maybe check them out.
The numbers are from the top of that front 2x4. The reference I used stated that there should be a shelf 1.75" down from the top of the measurement point for some AMO standard or something. That is what I did. I cut a shelf for the riser to sit in, but the measurements are from the top.
I guess my main concern was breaking the bow when I put the short string on in case I did it too soon. From the sounds of what some are saying, I should be able to brace it right now and go from there.
Imagine a bow with no riser braced at 0 inches; that's your zero mark and your numbers should increase from there. Any riser thickness displaces your numbers downwards so many people use blue tape so their scale can be adjusted for each individual bow. You could also hang a yardstick, tape it up, or whatever but I think your measurements are off by the thickness of your riser.