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Main Boards => The Bowyer's Bench => Topic started by: Col HJ on April 10, 2010, 01:02:00 PM

Title: Dumb arrow question
Post by: Col HJ on April 10, 2010, 01:02:00 PM
I have to confess to having become a carbon junkie...it seems I have forgotten everything I may once have known about wood shafts. Anyways, being in search of cheap arrows for daily practice and small game hunting I happened upon some really nice 5/16" poplar dowels at the local Home Depot for cheap. They are super straight and seem fairly sound, so the question is...like anything round and long there is a defined "spine" or a stiff side, so for a right handed shooter do I align this spine to the left(outside) or towards the bow?
Title: Re: Dumb arrow question
Post by: 4est trekker on April 10, 2010, 01:11:00 PM
I use poplar dowels for all my shafting.  I weigh the spine with the grain arranged vertically like such:  | | |   When I put my nock on, I align it perpendicular to the grain so that when nocked on the bowstring, the grain lies horizontal with the ground and perpendicular to the bow.   Hope that makes sense.  There's better info out there than my bumbling description!
Title: Re: Dumb arrow question
Post by: walkabout on April 10, 2010, 02:26:00 PM
i build with mostly poplar dowels too, as im sure lots of people do. its economical and convenient. i think how 4est explained it is pretty spot on. i havent tested any of my shafts to check for irregular spine weights, but i still get good shooters.
Title: Re: Dumb arrow question
Post by: b.glass on April 10, 2010, 04:43:00 PM
I have spine tested a bunch of the 5/16 poplar dowels and they ten to be in the 35# range with a few in the 40# range. The 3/8 poplar dowels are very heavy spined like 75-80+.
Title: Re: Dumb arrow question
Post by: gudspelr on April 10, 2010, 06:55:00 PM
Just out of curiousity, how much do those poplar dowels run and what length do they come in?  Thanks


Jeremy
Title: Re: Dumb arrow question
Post by: walkabout on April 10, 2010, 07:10:00 PM
i usually pick mine up in 36 inch lengths for about a buck apiece from lowes, though i might start buying the 4 footers so i can cut the best grain out of them. for 45-50 spine i buy ramin dowels from walmart, when they have anything decent. theyre the only place around here that still carries them.
Title: Re: Dumb arrow question
Post by: gudspelr on April 10, 2010, 07:38:00 PM
Thanks, Walkabout-I can see myself trying out arrow building and this seems like a great avenue for a cheap way to shoot woodies.


Jeremy
Title: Re: Dumb arrow question
Post by: walkabout on April 10, 2010, 09:59:00 PM
ive found a few diferent types of doweling over time, marked as the same"poplar" but some of it was darker and had grain more like the ramin. not sure what it was but it worked pretty well. ive started making test arrows to see what shoots best out of what bow and my latest are ramin footed with some 2216 shafting i have from extra crossbow bolts. after i taper the nock end of my shafts and add the footing i get a pretty good shooting arrow for my 40-45 bows, and i can switch out broadheads and target tips easily. im working on a batch of trade point arrows right now, havent shot any yet but theyre also ramin and poplar. good luck, im sure youll find it fun to do and its nice to be able to make them fit your bows.
Title: Re: Dumb arrow question
Post by: scrub-buster on April 11, 2010, 02:32:00 AM
Can you use red oak dowels?  I think the local Lowes carries them.
Title: Re: Dumb arrow question
Post by: walkabout on April 11, 2010, 02:39:00 AM
i havent tried them, because all the ones ive found have a very high concentration of the "crunchy" stuff between the rings. if you ever worked with red oak you know this stuff compresses on a whim so i just thought theyd be unstable. they would also be pretty heavy.birch will work too if you can find some that is accuratley marked. again the trick is checking grain and straightness before you buy them, buying the longer dowels and cutting the best part probably isnt a bad idea, neither is making them from square dowels. btw sorry if the thread got hijacked, hope this info helps
Title: Re: Dumb arrow question
Post by: George Tsoukalas on April 11, 2010, 08:16:00 AM
When the arrow is spined you spine with the butt grain straight up (||). Further, you align the nock groove at right angles to the grain on the butt end of the arrow.  The shafts may be milled parallel to the the back of the tree. Invariably they are not so you will see this <<<>>>under it. Before I did self nocks I used to use an awl to mark where I wanted the index of the nock to go. Orient this <<<
Title: Re: Dumb arrow question
Post by: walkabout on April 11, 2010, 01:09:00 PM
you guys could try out wild rose too, its a really common invasive shrub thats easy to identify, and works pretty well. takes a little longer to make due to seasoning, but not much. just pick shoots that are straight, finger size and cut em to 3 or 4 foot length then bundle them together to dry for a month or so.
Title: Re: Dumb arrow question
Post by: UnderControl16 on April 11, 2010, 04:23:00 PM
I had shoot red oak and i had no problems with them.
Title: Re: Dumb arrow question
Post by: walkabout on April 11, 2010, 04:23:00 PM
btw there really are no such things as dumb questions, forums like this are a resource for those looking for information and most of us are more than willing to share whatever info we can to help. i still post questions that are probably very novice things.lol
Title: Re: Dumb arrow question
Post by: Jason Scott on April 12, 2010, 09:59:00 AM
You can make your own dowels from poplar boards with the Veritas 3/8" dowel maker from Lee Vally Tools. The dowel maker costs $40 shipped to your door and you can run them through it very fast. In a few hours you can have several dozen 3/8" dowels made and then sand them down to your spine with a drill and sand paper. This way you don't have to wait on the store to restock the dowel bin. Over half the dowels in their bin are not suitable arrow material usually.
Title: Re: Dumb arrow question
Post by: Don Stokes on April 12, 2010, 10:25:00 AM
Poplar is a particularly good species for making your own, because the trees tend to be straight with very little taper to them. This increases the odds of getting straight grain without much runout. Using hardware store dowels can be risky, if you don't know how to read the grain. Ramin is particularly hard to read because it is a tropical hardwood, so it doesn't have the seasonal growth rings that make reading the grain easier. I've seen ramin shear off when it hit the target, which makes me very wary of it.
Title: Re: Dumb arrow question
Post by: walkabout on April 12, 2010, 11:24:00 AM
ramin is pretty hard to read the grain,at first i had a few that werent good because of this but i started carrying an eyeglass cleaning cloth with me to dampen the dowel before i buy it to be sure the grain is straight enough. people look at me wierd but it works.lol
Title: Re: Dumb arrow question
Post by: Col HJ on April 12, 2010, 11:54:00 AM
Wow a ton of timely info, thanks to everyone. I think the son and wife will soon be shooting 5/16" poplar. I want to make a jig and try tapering some 3/8" poplar and try on a heavier bow. Thanks again!
Title: Re: Dumb arrow question
Post by: walkabout on April 12, 2010, 12:27:00 PM
i chuck my 3/8 dowels in my drill and run them over the belt sander to taper, i used to do it by hand with 80 grit sandpaper but it takes awhile. the sander works well, and gets a pretty even taper. if there are high spots due to wobble then i use a chisel on the shaft thats chucked in a drill to get em straight. last step before i apply finish is always compressing, and what i use for that right now is a padlock and do it by hand. ive used shellac for finish, but it will add a little weight, and its not particularly tough so i switched to using tung oil finish on my arrows. self nocks i saturate with superglue in between steps of shaping to make them a little stronger, then i wrap them with art sinew for reinforcement. good luck in your arrow making, im sure youll be pleased once you get the process down.
Title: Re: Dumb arrow question
Post by: Loren Holland on April 14, 2010, 01:34:00 PM
Ok, now for a really dumb question...in the quest for penetration, and given that i would have to make the dowels, has anyone ever tried making arrows from the more dense species. Ipe in particular. How would something that dense spine? would you be better off just footing with it?  I know that when making a bow with ipe you can use less wood to make the weight pull bow you want, and even though the wood is heavier by volume you end up saving mass overall.  Would this work against you making arrows, meaning, would the difference in wieght vs stiffness for ipe vs other woods be so different that you couldn't make the right spine and grain combination?
Title: Re: Dumb arrow question
Post by: walkabout on April 14, 2010, 02:02:00 PM
i would guess that it would spine test higher, being dense. Similar in comparison from poplar to ramin dowels. I have footed poplar dowels with red oak dowels, and i think there was a small change in spine but it would depend on the length of the footing. If you could accurately read the grain on ipe you could make a few shafts and try them out, or just use them for footing. either way depends on the particular pieces you have available, and how the grain is. ramin 5/16 dowels usually spine in the 40-45 range for me,while poplar at 5/16 spines in the 30-45 range depending on footing and taper. i have a poplar dowel that is 3/8 with an oak footing that spines in the 75 lb range although it is pretty short, im expecting it to spine about 45-50 when its finished. it all depends on the particular wood and length i think,along with diameter. personally i feel better about footing with harder woods than using them for shafts, as they may be hard to straighten. also, if you build a hardwood shaft and it snaps in half all that works gone, whereas a footing you just put on a new footing. also helps with the weight forward.
Title: Re: Dumb arrow question
Post by: Don Stokes on April 14, 2010, 06:54:00 PM
Loren, you have to compare the density to the bending strength to see if it will make good arrows. If a species is heavy and has a relatively low bending strength, the arrows will be very sluggish.
Title: Re: Dumb arrow question
Post by: Ragnarok Forge on April 15, 2010, 12:39:00 PM
Be very careful working with Ipe.  It is highly toxic and has caused a lot of bowyers a lot of health problems.  Lots of other dense woods that will work for footings.
Title: Re: Dumb arrow question
Post by: Loren Holland on April 17, 2010, 12:20:00 AM
thanks guys, i am really interested in making some cane arrows, but since i am currently working on a BBI as a going away gift for my Colonel, i thought about the Ipe

BTW, Ragnarok, i went to Mountain View HS way back when before i moved back to TX, small world
Title: Re: Dumb arrow question
Post by: Innocente on April 17, 2010, 09:49:00 AM
man this is an excellent thread.  always plenty of bowery threads, rarely arrow threads around here, i didn't know ANY of this info.

i make mine from poplar and oak dowels, the oak is heavier and seems way more sturdy.  i break a LOT of arrows out shooting, and i break about 10x more poplar than i do oak.  

dumb question of my own:
i don't know how to tune my bow, and i just barely understand this spine stuff.  i'm shooting my latest 2 projects, a 50# fiberglass longbow and a 50# hickory selfbow, both have 1/4" arrow shelves, what spine is likely more appropriate?  the 30# poplar spine or the (probably) 50# ish oak spine? (using 5/16th dowels)
Title: Re: Dumb arrow question
Post by: walkabout on April 17, 2010, 11:32:00 AM
you might want to try some arrows spined around 40-45#, although 45-50# might be ok too. generally you match arrow spine to your bows weight, but bows that are without a shelf cut in or ones that have shallow shelves you use a lighter spine for the arrow to bend around the handle. to get the right spine just use a higher spine dowel and then chuck it in a drill and sand till it comes to the spine you want.
Title: Re: Dumb arrow question
Post by: Mike Most on April 17, 2010, 09:13:00 PM
My experience with a heavier wood, I used osage, for footing shafts, and have found when at 3D shoots, (missing the foam)  :scared:   Osage is darn neer indestructable when fired into rocks. The comparison would be to POC which invariably breaks 1-3 inches behind the BOP in a similar endurance test.  :bigsmyl:    :coffee:  

Mike
Title: Re: Dumb arrow question
Post by: walkabout on April 18, 2010, 11:12:00 AM
id like to try some osage footings, next time i can im gonna buy some stock to make some . then again if i buy osage itll likely be a stave:p lol
Title: Re: Dumb arrow question
Post by: Roy from Pa on April 18, 2010, 07:03:00 PM
IPE really messed me up, for a month I was under a doctors care. But  it doesn't affect everyone. Sitka Spruce is another good arrow wood. I have bought sitka spruce boards and they made great arrows. I cut them into 3/8th square blanks and used a hand plain and sand paper  to turn them into arrows. I have a thin metal hole gauge  that I use to get my diameter after I use the hand plain to get them fairly round. Just start at one end and slide the gauge  down the shaft. When it get's tight, pull it back off and sand that area a little. Then I keep going on down the arrow shaft.. Takes about a half hour to make 1 arrow with hand tools. But it's a lot of fun building your own arrow with hand tools.