Alright so I went and got the bug (and I mean bad) I haven't finished a bow yet but I sure learned alot and had alot of fun trashing the first two staves I started with. My uncle got me going in the right direction and I am sure he will have plenty of input on this project but I figured I would make it a TradGang thang as well.
Me chasing a ring, man I love this osage!
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh24/krischris123004/100_1820.jpg)
Heres a few pics of the stave after takeing her down to a good ring
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh24/krischris123004/100_1822.jpg)
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh24/krischris123004/100_1823.jpg)
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh24/krischris123004/100_1824.jpg)
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh24/krischris123004/100_1825.jpg)
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh24/krischris123004/100_1826.jpg)
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh24/krischris123004/100_1827.jpg)
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh24/krischris123004/100_1828.jpg)
continued....
heres a few with a string looking for the best layout to find my center for the nocks
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh24/krischris123004/100_1829.jpg)
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh24/krischris123004/100_1830.jpg)
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh24/krischris123004/100_1831.jpg)
The big knot is gonna end up mid limb I left two rings around it and will clean it up later.
Do you self bow guys think I should try to put some reflex in the limb that is not gonna match the other or just leave it?
I would like to put a little recurve in the tips and go for static but would that be a bad idea with the snake in this bow?
How would some of you guys lay this out?
I'm not opposed to a longbow or whatever.
It measures right now 61.5" long to 1.5 wide to 1" belly to back at narrowest
I want to keep all the character in it that it can have and still make a quick shooter. I plan on 1/2" or a little less at the tips and about 1.5" at the fades.
How should I get my limbs down from tip to fade and still follow the snakey grain? I have decided to stick with hand tools only on account of I want to develope a relationship with her and take it slow so she will serve me well in the years to come.
I also plan on one of those laminated leather rest and handle on her if that makes a difference in lay out and maybe overlay the tips the same way.
Alright bring it on fellas I can take it.
Oh yeah I almost forgot I got a board bow layed out that needs worked on but I think I fell in love with osage.
Kris
First thing I would do is buy a heat gun if you don't already have one and straighten your stave as much as possible, especially the doglegs. This will make layout much easier.
I agree with Eric but I would get it to floor tiller stage first. Leave your tips and handle area full size for now. You don't need to shape them yet and you might need the extra wood to make adjustments later. Hand tools are all that are needed at this point. Go slow, exercise the limbs with each wood removal.
Once you get the "kinks" out and get the limbs to bend a bit you can clamp the stave to a form with a little back set(about 3")and heat out the undulations and add even reflex to both limbs.
Keep us posted! Looking forward to your progress.
I agree with Pat and Eric. This stave will teach you a bunch.
Where is a good place to buy a heat gun?
I was looking at this stave and pondering and I figured if I could heat the center section of the bow (about a foot and a half) it will bring the tips into better alignment.
How do I go about heating it with a heat gun? Where and how much?
Should I try for a static recurve or just go for the reflex?
Well off to make some more shavings and yeller dust :bigsmyl: and bring her to floor tiller
Wow them heat guns ain't cheap.
Can't I just steam bend this baby or heat over some coals like the injuns done it?
I would like to keep this as painless on the pocket book as I can.
Alright..
I cleaned the edges of the limbs up with a rasp and sqared them off to the face and reduce the belly and got her bending just a little, maybe 4 inches give or take.
I did find a vertical split in one limb that has got me kinda worried the pic with dark mark is on the back of the bow the red mark is on the belly and opens up when I bend it I don't know if it goes all the way through but I think it might. It is 9 inches from the tip on the back and startes 7 inches from the tip on the belly
What do I do with it?
heres the pics
one limb
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh24/krischris123004/100_1833.jpg)
the other limb
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh24/krischris123004/100_1834.jpg)
and the split (it is a hair line so I marked it)
Back of bow
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh24/krischris123004/100_1835.jpg)
Belly of bow
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh24/krischris123004/100_1837.jpg)
Let's hear it.. What do I do know.
Gotta go to work now I'll post more later.
Kris
If it opens up when you bend it, I'd think you'd want to fill with superglue, or wrap with sinew? I'm sure Pat or Eric has delt with this before though. I'm still a newbie compared to those guys. Definately do whatever they tell you!
I was thinking CA but never gave the heat thing any thought, makes sense though. I'll give her a go and see what happens.
Put your super glue in the back or belly depending on which side is cracked the widest. If the crack is pretty substantial I put tape on the opposite side to keep the superglue from running out and fill the crack until it won't hole anymore. I also tap the side of a stave with a wrench to settle the glue and get the air bubbles out.
Even if a crack looks filled you need to check it every so often for a while as the glue will often seep deeper into the crack after the initial filling.
Stiks, check your local Ace or True value hardware. They have heat guns for $30 or less. No need for the real expensive ones. You could even go to Harbor Freight and get one for $10 but I had one and it went kaput after one use, though that was probably just mine.
I'm not a very good self-bowyer at all...in fact, I'm pretty awful. However I did stay at the Holiday Inn Express last night! Okay..Okay... I do know this, I have an osage bow made by Dano, as well as one made by Eric. They are masterpieces. You would be wise to listen to their advice. I don't mean any disrespect to any of the other fine bowyers posting, I just don't have any personal experience with you. Hopefully that will change one day. Good luck with your bow Sticks-n-Strings !
STIKS GO TO HARBOR FIGHT THEY HAVE A 1100- 1400 HEAT GUN 14 BUCKS BROCK
harbor freight it is. I heated the crack up a little and put CA in it then done a little heating to straighten her some (used the Stove for heat)she looks a little better now. the only straightening I am gonna do now is in the handle and fade area and I think I am going to steam bend it per the instructions in the bowyers bible vol.1.
This baby has got some awsome reflex/deflex in the limbs that is coming out natural at least I think it's awsome. I'll post some more pics later when I get a chance.
Thanks for all the advice guys.
Stay tuned more to come! Kris
PIC'S :jumper:
I need to take some more pics and get them posted. to show my progress and get advice on a few things. I'll do that this week been real busy.
Alright... Up to speed.
Got her bending and stopped t odo some straightening, Got her about as straight as I want to get it but need to tweek on the tip a little cause they got some twist.
here she is straightend out.. Used dry heat on limb areas and steam on handle area.
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh24/krischris123004/100_1842.jpg)
heres a side view, not a really good pic but it will do, Both limbs have a little reflex but the bottom needs a little more..
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh24/krischris123004/100_1843.jpg)
heres the rough handle shape
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh24/krischris123004/100_1844.jpg)
a couple of limb tips..
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh24/krischris123004/100_1845.jpg)
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh24/krischris123004/100_1846.jpg)
how do you guys recommend I get the twist out of the tips (before or after some tillering)?
Should I give her a little curve in tips or not I was thinking about just going longbow style on her with natural reflex in it.
Gonna do some tip overlays and handle overlays that should turn out good.
I'll post some pics of tillering for critique when I get a chance.
Later Kris
TTT
Coming along well, keep us posted on the bow.
My only advice would be to shape the tips more. When I started selfbows it took me awhile to realize the tips look strange squared off and add weight to the tips and a little more hand shock to the bow. Mine used to look just like yours. You can always play around with the tips after tillering and it wont mess up the tiller at all. Use a rasp to shape the tip like the shape of a house, with the tip of the roof being the belly side of the tip. Then, use some sand paper or a file to round off all the corners or sharp edges. Selfbows should have smooth rounded edges. That will come easier with more experience!
Good work and I'd say you'll be hooked in to selfbows for a good long while!
Yeah Osagetree, I'm hooked already!
I have yet to bring the tips anywhere close to shape but I will use your advice when that time comes.
My question is how do I get the twist out of the tips? I was thinking of putting a wrench on it and clamping to remove twist with a little dry heat.
Will that work or should steam them?
Dry heat will work, I usually wrap a piece of leather over the tip to protect it from the wrench. Keep in mind you will have to hold it there until it cools.
I use two squares of leather belt scrap between the jaws of a pair of vice grips. It's best to take out the twist in several attempts along the lenght of the limb rather than trying to take it out all in one location. Study the limb, make a plan starting from the handle out and go for it,,, slowly!!
I would also consider tying to even out the reflex in the limbs as I went about removing the twist and add in a little curve to the last 8 or 10 inches towards the tips
A hear a cresent wrench works too!
I have been give'en her the eye and ponderin' and back and forth and back and forth. any way I was thinking along the same lines as you fellers but with lack of experience I wanted to get a professional opinion.
As far as going slow... that's what the first two or three staves that are firewood taught me. LOL
Dano you where right.. this stave is teaching me alot. After I got out of a hurry I think I'm actually moving along pretty good I think.
More to come....
Kris
Lookin' good, sticks! Jawge
well I don't know how good she's looking now, you fellers tell me what you think.
Looks to me like the left limb is heavy, and the right limb has a bit of a hinge in her.
Do I need to place the bow on the tiller tree in the center of the bow or in the center of the grip.
The way I have it planned out the the rest will fall 1.5" above center.I am also thinking of putting a little flpip in the tips about 3" from tip, not much though.
I do need to get a little more Reflex/deflex in the left limb to match the left or does it look alright to guys.
Heres a few more pics on tiller tree and unstrung profile so far. I pretty much just have it floor tillered at this point and am getting ready to start fine tuning.
first time on the long string...
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh24/krischris123004/bowpics2001.jpg)
unbraced side profile...
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh24/krischris123004/bowpics2005.jpg)
Looks like you got 2 hinges starting - one on each limb. Do you see them. Mid limb on the right and a little before mid limb on the left. Mark a big X on the belly. Leave that area alone. Remove wood from above and below the hinges. Do be yankin' that stave to far until you fix them. Jawge
now that I look at it this morning on here I do see them.
one question I have... Both limbs have some natural twist in them. Is this gonna be a problem and if I'm thinking right do I take more off the side that is stronger to get it to correct itself when it is drawn?
Kris
Slight limb twist is not a problem and will mostly pull out after shooting a bow for a while.
I have not had much luck removing wood from the strong side to correct twist in osage bows. I prefer to remove severe propeller with heat before I start tillering. I use a pipe wrench(well padded) and a 5 gal bucket to put weight in while I heat the limb. I use a piece of course, cloth backed sandpaper to pad my pipe wrench jaws, non slip and won't mar the limb.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v181/ekrewson/propellerpost.jpg)
Have made yourself a tillering gizmo? From the hingy looks of you first bend on the long string you definitely need one.
http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=125;t=001047
Eric, I don't have alot of real bad twist so I'm gonna just let it go.
One of the first things I thought about when I put her on the tree the first time was one of your tillering gizmo's. I'm definitely gonna get one made before I go much further.
Thanks for all the input Guys. Keep it coming.
Kris
Heres some more tillering pics. How does it look to guys. I think I've done all I can with a rasp and its a scraper from here on out.
(http://i252.photobucket.com/albums/hh24/krischris123004/bowpics2007.jpg)
How do I know when it's time for the short string?
Do I need to flip the tips now or wait until I get a little closer?
I have decided that I am going to sinew back this bow and recurve the tips.
A few questions:
When is it time for the short string?
When is it time to recurve the tips?
Do I sinew before or after recurving the tips?
Thanks for all the help guys.
Kris
Better. Now you need to get mid limb on - both limbs bending more. Jawge
Thanks George.
How about the other stuff (sinew and recurved tips)?
You kinda' like this stickbow business, don't you Kris? :bigsmyl: Looking forward to seeing how this one turns out. :thumbsup:
Yeah 4est this osage is has got some kinda mystical draw that I can't pry myself away from.
I got my board bow laid out just haven't had a chance to cut, any spare time I been working on this.
TTT
I would get both limbs bending evenly and together first before you sinew or recurve. You should recurve first before sinewing because the heat can affect the sinew and glue.
I usually go to a short string and low(about 4") brace height when I get to about 8" of tip movement...and everything else is good.
Sounds good Pat
Thanks
In your last tiller pick here is what I see: LEFT limb is bending more right at the fade, middle 1/3 bending some and last 1/3 not bending. RIGHT limb is bending nicely out to the slight hinge about 60% of the way from fade to tip, past this hinge there is little or no bending.
I would mark the left limb at the fade and the right limb at the slight hinge with XXXX and remove small amount of wood from the rest of the limbs with a few extra strokes on the last third towards the tips.
Yes, you are at the scraper stage now, go slow. Don't pull past final draw weight or past where you can see a flaw in the tiller.
Good work, you are getting close.
If you are going to recurve tips I like to do it at about the stage you are at. If you go for much recurve, you can lose some belly wood to delamination when you bend. Do it while you have wood to spare. A slight flip can be done at any time with much less chance of damage.
Haven't worked on her alot lately but I have a few more questions before I go any further. I did do a little more tillering (never pulled it past my intended draw weight and exercised the limbs plenty) and it took about two inches of string follow.
I have read a little about heat tempering the back to induce reflex or deflex (I can't remember which is which) How Exactly do I go about doing this? should I put oil on the part of the bow to be heated and if so what kind?
Also should I boil, steam, or dry heat the tips to flip them? I dont want to put htat much recurve in the tips probably just the last 3 or 4 inches and a nice smooth curve.
Thanks for all the help so far I sure am learning alot and loving every minute of it.
Kris
Top for answers
Kris:
You don't want to heat the back of the bow. Heating tempers (i.e. hardens) the wood. That is suited to belly (compression) wood, but not back (tension) wood.
You can't remove/reverse set and/or string follow. Once the wood fibers have compressed (i.e. manifested string follow/set) you can't undo that. You can OFFSET it to a certain degree, but you're going to make some parts of the limb work even hard than they are now. For example, let's say you reflexed or recurved the tips. That would offset the effects of string follow, but youth will be asking the inner and middle third of the limb to do more work than they currently are. You bow will thus show more deflex in this region, but may retain the reflex/recurve in the outer third. The sum package may equate to LESS string follow, but you've further degraded the efficiency of the main working part of the limb.
Another example would be to steam/heat some set back (reflex) in the inner limbs just outside of the fades. Same story, different approach.
Here's my advice: Finish out the bow as is, and then get yourself another stave. If you want recurved tips or a deflex/reflex profile on that one, do it before hand.
By the way, I still want to see some finished pictures of that board bow you've got laid out! Seems to me you were the one that prompted that build-along! :goldtooth: Good luck. Hope my answers help.
I agree go ahead and finish this one. You can still flip the tips some and it will improve the performance. No heat on back, just belly if you want, but osage does not respond to this like hickory.
Next bow, put some backset in the stave after you get to floor tiller stage. 1 1/2 - 2" of backset induced with heat on a cull at the same time you straighten some of the whoop dee dooes. Then when you loose the couple inches during tillering, you will end up straight. You cannot add backset once the bow has started to bend much - it will come right back out.
Flip the tips at little, finish tillering to draw length and post report and pics. Keep up the good work!
4est: I did prompt the board bow thing didn't I. I haven't gave it up just got to making this osage and fell in love with it. I will get the board bow done soon and post pics as I go, I promise.
Shaun: I am going to work on it tomarrow and post some more pics. What I have planned is to flip the tips and sinew back it with some diamond back accent backing. Been doing alot of reading on self bows and pondering before my next move but I am ready for my next move so...
More to come!
Kris
Sticks, I missed way back how you were fiddling around with the layout. You can't do that. Always draw a line down the middle that follows the lateral or vertical grain.
http://georgeandjoni.home.comcast.net/~georgeandjoni/layout.html
If show pics of where you are we can give you our $ 0.01 worth. :) Jawge
I was just looking at string tracking George. I did not even think about what you are taliking about though so I am glad you pointed it out. I don't think I violated the vertical grain. I was going after a snakey character bow when I started this one cause it has some snake in it and a real nice knot.
When I took it down in width I split it and cleaned her up with a rasp. I hope done it right, If not oh well I am learning a pot load and am well on my I hope.
you guys have been invaluable here and I appreciate it.
Kris
I know that you were trying to improve string tracking but you can't do that at the expense of the lateral grain. Well you can if you want but you shouldn't. LOL. Measure the same one each side of that line that follows the grain and that is how you get your width. To improve string tracking leave the handle wide and nocks wide and then adjust tracking that way. I can explain further if you are interested. Jawge
George I am interested in what you are talking about, I think I understand what you are saying but more detail would be great.
I do have some bad news though... I was working on recurving the tips and she cracked from belly to back the whole width of the limb. Oh well on to the next one LOL.
All is not lost though I only lost about 3.5 inches off the tip so I am going to cut the other end and make a youth bow out of it. :)
I will go round up another stave in a week or so and get started on it :bigsmyl:
Dano you were right about the learning alot.
My wife said she would have thrown it through a window, LOL I'm just looking at all I have learned and taking it to the next one with a big grin.
Can't wait to get started on the next one but I got a board bow I'm gonna build that I have been putting off during this endeavor so I think I'll get after that first. I definetly ain't given up. I will have an osage stick to hunt with that I built for next season. Good thing I got plenty of time LOL
Kris
I got to thinkin....
When I cut the other tip off it will leave me a 54" stave. I'm thinking bend in the handle bow at about 45-50# at 28". Is this doable or do I just go with kids bow idea?
You'd be able to draw it 25 in anyway, Sticks. Before I explain how to track the string for a little bit with out heat do you understand the concept of following the vertical or lateral grain? I'm not sure that you do so let's back up and check that out. Jawge
From what I gather from your site George I need to follow the grain down the center of the lay out for the bow, Is this right?
As far as being able to draw it 25" I think I;ll just make a youth bow nad call it good. It wil lgive me an opportunity to work on my tillering skills.
Kris
TTT