So I guess eventually apex is going to get frustrated answering all my questions by email so i thought i would post here and get everyone opinion.
First my background. i have A lot of experience working metal, and a little working wood. I love hunting, my first hog with a hand load was a wonderful feeling, but i cant make a gun, I can make a bow. I have average arching skills, starting as a child with a fiberglass recurve. Then on to compound bows, never killed anything bigger then a raccoon with any of them, my Indian like skills are not nearly as refined as Apex.
I went scouting for the first time last week, and found plenty of deer and bear sign, but visibility here is wa averages about 20 yds in the woods. What a great opportunity for a bow!! I was soo impressed with What i have seen here and from apex that i decided it was time to try to build a bow. I know the first one will not be a masterpiece, but hopefully it will shoot true and fast.
So here is where i am. I went to the lumber yard and found some nice 3/4 in mapple and ipe for my riser, i glued up the maple but the ipe is verry oily so i am going to hit is with acetone over the next few days.
I have autocaded designs for both bow and riser and submitted them to apex for approval. (i dont know how to post a picture or worst yet an DXF or PDF)
The basic idea is a 64" R/D (i am 6'3" and a long draw is more comfortable for me)Fiberglass laminate bow. the lam stack is my first hang up, I plan on ordering them online.
So i think i need the following stack,
please critique.
my goal is ~50# at a 28 or 29" draw
width= 1.5"
from back to belly (back being the side facing the deer)
(1) .040 black fiberglass
(1) 0.080 Tapered (.001) Hard Maple
(1) 0.080 Tapered (.001) Hard Maple
(1) 0.080 Parallel hard maple
(1) 0.040 Black fiberglass
i have pics on the camera once i figure out how to load them!
Great. Good luck and I'm looking forward to seeing your build...Use caution as its addicting!
Autocad of riser
(http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/xochal/bow%20build/riserautocad.jpg)
Wood for riser
(http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/xochal/bow%20build/riserlams.jpg)
Riser glue up
(http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/xochal/bow%20build/riserclampup.jpg)
I would guess a wee bit lite in draw weight. My 64" with .003" per inch total taper takes .355 to make 50# @ 28"
With .002 total it might pull a bit more #s ?
Good luck and keep us posted!!
1.5" of maple vs. scroll saw.... and the winner is.... the maple...
kennym thanks for the info, i was looking for a bow to benchmark! I went with an orignial guess of 0.002 tapper because it seems everyone says 0.004 is too much... perhaps 0.003 will be just right. i will post the profile i came up with for feed back, by no means have I made any choices yet (except not to cut maple with the scroll saw anymore.)
Ok here is the cad for the riser and the bow. what do you guys think of the shape of the bow? should the infection points from deflex to reflex be closer to the tips?
(http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/xochal/bow%20build/bowriser1_1.jpg)
(http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/xochal/bow%20build/bow1_1.jpg)
Here is my design,profiles on p 3 .
http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=125;t=001165;p=1
It looks pretty good to me,my 07 bow had lots of reflex near the tips . It was harder to shoot than my 09 model in the link above......
Revised stack based on that last bit from kenny
all 1.5in wide.
(1) 0.040 black fiberglass
(3) 0.090 tapered maple (0.001)
(1) 0.040 black fiberglass
Kenny do you have all these lams?
Good to see you over here buddy! The e-mails are not too bad! :) I do get a lot of returned e-mails though. For some reason, they seem to be going through, even with the returned msg. I'm looking forward to the progress.
Kenny is a great guy to deal with and sells everything you need. It's much easier to base your first off of a known form, or design. You can tweak it from there.
You are in for a wild ride man!
Sure do bud!! Have a look around...
http://kennyscustomarchery.com/
Apex, i have been getting your emails, i dont know why it keeps sending stuff back. it still comes thru. going to square the riser block tonight, the old fashion way!!
the old fashion way.... dont mind the machined right angle blocks
(http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/xochal/bow%20build/1013091705.jpg)
think its time to buy that table saw and band saw i have been wanting!
(http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/xochal/bow%20build/1015091715.jpg)
Test fitting the riser lams, riser is maple lams are cherry and walnut i picked up at the hardware store. i figured the limbs shouldn't be the first time i worked with thin lams so i should put some in the riser.
Lookin good!! :thumbsup:
Glad that wasn't my lams, think that riser block might be ruined... some lessons i am sure you all would have told me:
1) the guy that named it "5 min epoxy" lied
2) that guide pin idea is a really good idea
3) even TB II sets fast enough that your lams have to be in the right place when you start to clamp.
guess there may be enough good wood there to make my son a riser....
Your smoothon will be there in 3 days,I'd rather use it!
The wrap in plastic and clamp litely with blocks from sides works to keep it all 1.5" in width,,the thin lams are a nuther deal!! LOL ...
thanks kenny! just got the invoice.
ok got another question. What thickness of metal do you recomend for the pressure strip and to cap the mold with. i just found out my online metal supplier is local (kinda) so shipping is no worry. 1/8 X1.5 inch aluminum is 4.90 a strip. i think that is about right. still pretty flexible. i thought 1/16 would be too thin. I did some test cuts with the band saw. i was able to re saw 3" oak board to a thickness of 0.070 +-0.015, but then i sanded it and it came out to like 0.050 +-0.010 cut an inlay for the ipe and glued it up as a backup to the maple riser. this is therapeutic and so far my 4 yr old daughter and 5 yr old son love it, they vacuum dust as i sand. think i have enough scrap metal laying around to make a lam grinder, have lathe will machine... its less frustrating to me cause the results are closer to what i expect when i am working with metal.
I've used both for Pressure strips Russ. If your riser fades are exactly the same every time, then the thicker aluminum is best. If they vary just a little, then the 1/16" will conform to the changes a little better.
You just have to "creep" up on the final dimensions when you are dealing with wood. That, and fresh, sharp abrasives.
(http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/xochal/bow%20build/trueriser.jpg)
riser block trued up on my drill press spindle sander with homemade fence turned out 1.40 wide... drats, might chalk it up as a loss, or maybe i will thicken it up a bit with side lams. good learning experience, happy to see minimal air bubbles and enough wood left to work with. better then i expected.
(http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/xochal/bow%20build/cutrisesr.jpg)
went a head and cut a riser, this might just work!!! general gun season opens tommorrow, so i am not sure how much work i will get done on it for the next few weeks, of course there is only 12 hrs of shooting light a day!
i haven't got too much done, just got my box from kenny and am working on some tooling and the form. here is what i built to true up my riser, came with in 5 thousands of true. put a vacuum box and attachment on it. those machined right angle blocks have come in handy for more projects then any other random part i have ever bought.
(http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/xochal/bow%20build/thicknessgrinder.jpg)
its deer season so i am moving slow... still havent got one.. lots of does and no doe tag. only seen one small buck, and i saw him from the back as he ran away.... i will have to work on my Indian like skills.
here is a picture of the form. i wasnt happy with the finish i got on the wood top so i filled it with marine body filler and trued it. it will get a few coats of "epoxy" enamel paint then lots of wax. i have made alot of fiberglass molds and mold locked several from undercuts, i am trying to prevent that here. i used black pant because on molds it is easier to tell if the cloth is wetted out w.o bubbles with a dark background.
(http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/xochal/bow%20build/bondoform.jpg)
so here is my motivation. i found a small clearing in the middle of the woods.. it is about a 40 yd circle, saw lots of scat, some of it not deer. i decided to set the cam and have a look at what shows up.. in the past 2 weeks i have got more pictures of this guy and a female and cub then of deer. they always show up between 3 and 5 pm and almost every day... wouldn't it be glorious for my new bow's first kill to be a lovely bear. i am keeping this spot in reserve for when my bow is ready. might not be till spring season but i can wait. for now i will keep watching them. this spot seems like the prefect set up.... 40 yrd circle with a few trees big enough for a stand at 3 points, also there is lots of cover to put on a good stock.
(http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/xochal/bow%20build/motivation.jpg)
So no pictures this time but here is the update. built a 12X20x80 inch oven, used the cheepest ply would i could find 6$ a sheet, it took alot of bisects and bracing to pull it "square" bottom is insulated with 3/4" white foam. the top has a 2 inch air gap and false top. then every thing was lined with sliver bubble wrap stuff so the sides should have an r value of about 6 and the top and bottom over 10. 4 100 watt light bulbs heat the oven over 180F in about 30 mins empty. i got some walnut and cherry vaneirs and cut them in to lams. then fited a nasty riser block. I am baking my test run now. Lessons learned:
1. Cheep ply wood is frustrating but usable if you have enough 3/4 left from your mold to build braces.
2. my wife's cheep walmart plastic fan cant handle heat over about 150F.. that's about where is gave up the ghost. (she doesnt know yet.)
3) At 45 degress in my garage smooth on is "solid".
4) after 30 mins in the over at 160 smooth on is not too much more liquid, but mixable.
5) 5 ounces of smooth on is not enough for a 3 lam bow with fiberglass cloth back.
6) Have all our tools and lots of extra pairs of gloves layed out. use your dry run not only for fit up, but to consider what tools you will need. i think i went tru 5 pairs of vinyl gloves...
thats it for now. pics once it comes out of the oven.....
Looking forward to the pics Russ!
so here are some pictures today has been a day of learning ending in a sore thumb and a broken limb. it was practice wood so only my feelings (and thumb are hurt) thats why i did a wet run!! i really like the color skeem, think it will be my next bow.
(http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/xochal/bow%20build/oven.jpg)
here is a pic of the oven
(http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/xochal/bow%20build/coolingoff.jpg)
bow and form cooling off
(http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/xochal/bow%20build/debuggered.jpg)
bow de buggered
(http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/xochal/bow%20build/broken.jpg)
broken limb.... yea i was playing around bending it a bit...
for the record the riser is ipe with maple on the belly side, with a strip of maple in the ipe
the limbs where walnut over cherry.
here is a good picture of the riser, i think i am going to try to save it. i will fill the parts i ground out of the back with bondo, its all going to be sanded again, or maybe not even fill them.
(http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/xochal/bow%20build/goodriser.jpg)
here you can see how it failed where i glued the center lam together ( i could only get them in 24 in lengths at the hardware store)
(http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/xochal/bow%20build/goodbreak.jpg)
hopefully that 20$ saves my first real bow from failure.
well i saved the riser and am gluing up my first real bow now. sorry no pictures of the glue up, i am working alone here. i did have a helper setting up last night. here is a picture of him with the "invention" we build together.
(http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/xochal/bow%20build/dadyshelper.jpg)
He must take after his mother, cause he's a fine looking young man!
I can hardly wait for the next installment.
baked for 5 hrs, cooled for 1 hr (oddly enough it took almost exactly the same time as the roast at i was cooking at 180!), and its off the form! fits both ways even, so i guess the form is true. here are the pictures as i cleaned up the boogers i am giddy. cant wait to shoot it!! cut it to 68" cause that looked about right, and you can always cut off more, never less. i will mark the center tonight and start sanding to the line. I don't think i am going to even try with the band saw.
rubber bands and clamp is off!
(http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/xochal/bow%20build/bow1onform.jpg)
here she is boogers and all!!
(http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/xochal/bow%20build/wbow1withbuggers.jpg)
buggers and tape are off
(http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/xochal/bow%20build/tapeoffbow1first.jpg)
here you can see when i salvaged the riser i left the walnut strips on the fades gives it a bit more style!
(http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/xochal/bow%20build/gluedupriseronbow1.jpg)
this is as far as i got last night. drew center line with a height gage, then checked with the laser. off to the store this morning to get a 36" flexible ruler.\\
checking the center.
(http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/xochal/bow%20build/chechcenter.jpg)
trapped the limbs this morning did it all on the belt sander took about 2 hrs including clean up. here is the product
(http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/xochal/bow%20build/trapedlimb.jpg)
filed small string nocks, went to sporting good store, and no bow strings over 56" so i will have to order one to take the bow to brace, i put the stringer on it and bent, feels good.. i did pick up some carbon arrows while i was at the store.
so i have cut the sight window and shaped the riser. you can see the arrows in the second picture are where it still needs some work. however it will never look semtric on the bottom because i contoured it to my hand, just kept picking it up and feeling where it needed more wood removed. more concerned with a comfortable shooter then something pretty..
you can see the center board in the riser, i guess i used oak, at this point i dont remember, however i dont remember having any oak that thin???
(http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/xochal/bow%20build/groundriserside.jpg)
(http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/xochal/bow%20build/risertop.jpg)
Lookin good Russ!! :thumbsup:
thanks kenny!!
so here is where i am. riser is shaped and sanded to 320. nocks are lightly filed in. time to take the bow to brace but i dont have a string. sporting goods store doesnt have any 61" strings.... my b-50 hasnt showed up in the mail yet.. what to do.
I have a shark real with 80# Dacron fishing line on it. i have used Flemish twists for shark fishing in the past, I have a computer and for the first several thousand years of bows there was no b-50. (wife is not happy at this point, says i am going to kill my self with a home made string, so i remind here its what we used to leader those 600# tigers and she calmed down) so i choose 6 strands figuring it was an over kill. after 3 trys i got a string the right length. (the fishing line stretches about 1/100 and i kept coming up to way to short). so here is the bow at brace and the up close of a fishing line bow string.
when i am done i swear i will get the good camera out for pictures
(http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/xochal/bow%20build/atbrace.jpg)
you can see the black piece of thread i used to keep track of the bundles. that is a trick i thought about using with 990# SS wire. (never could find the #E thread back then)
(http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/xochal/bow%20build/flemish.jpg)
here she is getting sprayed, shot her today, little bit heavy but it will work.
the entire bow.
(http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/xochal/bow%20build/finishedbow.jpg)
the riser
(http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/xochal/bow%20build/finishedriser.jpg)
the tips
(http://i695.photobucket.com/albums/vv319/xochal/bow%20build/tip.jpg)
once the finish drys i will post some pics of it drawn.