I just forged two large blades in ladder pattern and took a few pictures of the process.
Matt, I was truly intending to make the twist that we spoke of but I really wanted to try to tweak my ladder pattern and before I knew it, it was a ladder pattern.
These pictures are from the steps of two different blades, but they are the same pattern and the same steps. They both turned out with a good pattern. So my tweaking was worthwhile.
Here is the original stack of 1/4 inch 1084 and 1/8 inch 15N20 steels.
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2854/11785081836_57fe3cfc39_z.jpg)
The stack is 1 1/2 X 5 X 3 3/4 give or take. 17 layers.
I weld it and draw it to 1 1/2 inch square and about 12 inches long, maybe 13. In the above picture looking at the end of the billet the layers are oriented east and west during the weld and draw. Now it is square and 13 inches. Now I turn it onto a 45 degree angle and start putting a flat on each corner. I keep this up until it is an octagon and just keep going till it is now a square again but the layers are slanted on a 45 within the bar.
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3716/11784318085_676a73fe4f_z.jpg)
Now I crush it top to bottom in that orientation.
After it's crushed and forged into a rectangle I draw it on out and cut it into 5 pieces and re stack.
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3814/11785869983_ac956123d0_z.jpg)
I weld it and draw it out.
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5542/12051371665_65b1001440_z.jpg)
I then cut this one into three pieces and re stack.
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2815/12061419384_23fdb6823b_z.jpg)
I draw that out and cut it into 3 again and weld it. Now it's time to forge the first stage of the blade.
I always enjoy seeinv your process.
I appreciate you taking the time to share it.
Chris
:campfire: more please...
WOW
Cool! Looking forward to more of this one.
Darcy :campfire:
OK. This is for Matt. The last picture. If I were to square it and twist it loosely, then forge a blade and grind it, it would look something like this:
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8045/8378031547_affcf26343_z.jpg)
Back to the ladder.
This is hard to explain although it may only seem difficult to me. I have the billet welded up to the point shown above in the layered billet, not the twist. When it is layered up the way I want it, I forge it into a rough, thick blade. The layers run from spine to edge and can number what ever you want depending on the stacks. Mine is 45.
(http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7320/12086269073_38dda6d8f2_z.jpg)
This blade is 7/8 thick at the ricasso spine and tapers, and I do mean taper, to 3/8 at the tip. The cutting edge has been drawn down to a consistent 1/4 inch. I want to end up with an 11 1/2 inch blade so this rough shaped blade is about 10 1/2, since I expect it to grow with subsequent forging.
The more care taken in the taper and subsequent cutting of the grooves, the better the pattern and final blade will be.
Now I groove it 1/3 the thickness. The depth changes as the blade tapers. The groves are staggered.
(http://farm4.staticflickr.com/3682/11818783035_761bd5286f_z.jpg)
I love it when you put up these kinds of threads.
:campfire:
Jeremy
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2871/12088466266_138f2b6a9c_c.jpg)
(http://farm6.staticflickr.com/5474/11988851606_33e99494e6_c.jpg)
Wow... Bet that does a lot of shimmering in the light.
Jeremy
That is an incredible looking blade.
I will say it again Lin, your skills are just unbelievable!!
cant wait to see that big boy all done up!!
Thank you. :campfire:
I want to point out something about the rough blade's refinement into the final blade shape. I have worked on the ratio of thickness and how they work out.
If I want to end up with a 1/4 inch thick blade I have to make allowances for not only the forging but the grinding too. In my case, I wanted a 5/16 thick blade, give or take. It's a long blade after all. So I say 5/16 X 2 = 5/8 inch, then add the grinding (1/8 inch total for both sides) to get 7/8 inch thick for the rough embryo of the blade. Then cut the grooves 1/3 of 7/8 inch. No kidding.
If 1/4 inch is what I want to end up with as net thickness, I would say 1/4 X 2 = 1/2 + 1/8 = 5/8 thick for the rough embryo. Then cut the grooves 1/3 of 1/2 inch.
You might notice that when you cut into the rough embryo 1/3, that leaves 2/3. 2/3 of 1/2 inch is somewhat thicker than your desired net thickness of 1/4 inch. After flattening the embryo into the final blade thickness, that extra is for your grinding.
I'll point out this. If even one groove is too deep, it will end up causing you to have a blade thinner than you intended because you have to forge it on down to get rid of the grooves. Some remnants of the cut grooves may still be left but you want to forge out at least 90% of the grooves. The grinding depth of the grooves is just one of the many possible mess ups. Be very careful and it will work. If you want to add a little insurance to your recipe go a little light on the grooves, say 1/4 the thickness. It will still look good but the chatoyance may not be as good.
The name of the game is evenness. Even pattern, even forging, even grinding, even heating, etc.
Thanks Lin and yep leave enough "meat" at the start. Nine times out of ten if I screw up a ladder it's starting with too thin a stock or grinding a groove or two too deep. Either one equals a thin finished blade and a bowie turns into a hunter... if your lucky... ;)
Awesome blade by the way, can't wait to see what embellishments this one gets. :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Thanks so much for the formula, Lin. I've always wondered how makers figured that out. It's sharing that kind of information that greatly reduces the learning curve for a bunch of us-thank you.
Jeremy
That is just awesome! Thanks for sharing Lin!
That's awesome. Thanks for always being willing to share with us.
Matt
Is grinding the groove in the key to the ladder and chatoyance(sp) or would you pound them in with a jig in your press or little giant?
Very cool tutorial - thank you again for all you share with us mere mortals like myself.
Thanks.
Bobby, Whether or not you grind the pattern in and forge it or use dies to forge the pattern in and grind it flat, There is not much difference in the outcome as long as you create the sufficient or, better yet, optimum distance of perpendicular travel between the offsets and consistent pattern of offsets. I believe that there is an optimum distance of travel and this is what gives the chatoyance. The shimmer comes from the edges of the layers that have turned across the blade thickness. All of this, of course, is assuming that you grind the blade to the pattern's peak. If you grind in too much, the pattern is diluted causing it to look washed out.
When you buy a set of dies, you have to accept the fact that for the best result in your pattern you will have to make all of your blades the thickness prescribed and dictated by the depth of the dies.* Remember the formula will apply to the use of dies just as much as grinding although somewhat convoluted. This is why I grind them in. I can use the formula for whatever size, but more importantly, whatever thickness blade I want.
* This is why you will see some ladder type patterns that are very clear and some are washed out, almost unrecognizable. It's because there was not much consideration of the starting or finish thickness when using the dies in the process.
This is just my view at this time. I dont want to sit here and say it is the best way but it does work for me. I think it gives me more control over the outcome.
Point taken and, again, I truly appreciate all your help and information. I believe at my skill level(or lack there of) I will be farther ahead using a grinder ant this time even though I could make dies for my press or hammer.
More control of the outcome with a grinder without big "oopsy" I smooshed it too much action.
Thanks for the detailed pics and info. And special thanks for including the part about the twisted version, which may just be my favorite pattern of all. I wonder if I can pull this off with hand hammers?? Guess I'll find out.
One question about your version of w's. Why do you squish the initial stack on a 45* rather than just on edge? I assume it's makes for a different look?
Darcy :campfire:
Darcy,
I do that for two reasons. Number one, yes it gives it a look. It slants the layers so that when you cut the grooves in, it has to go through the layers that have been slanted. It creates lots of little hooks and flips and curves.
Number two, Should I decide to use part of the billet for a twisted pattern blade, I get the same effect, more flips and curves mixed in the twist, not to mention the little flame pattern along the edge.
In other words, I can make my billet as shown, forge a ladder pattern blade and cut it off the billet. Then I can square and twist the remainder of that billet for smaller blades. I did just that with this billet. I got a 12 inch blade of ladder pattern, then twisted the rest and forged two hunters. All from the same billet.
Good job Lin :thumbsup:
Awesome, thanks Lin.
One more question. When you twist it, do you always forge it square, and twist it, or have you tried forging it round first and twisting from there? With the billets I have twisted I always forged it round, just to save material(not having to grind off the corners) as bashing it out by hand is hard enough, I hate to loose too much steel. I do not get the standard twist "stars", and I figured this must be from forging round first. That's how I ended up with the sasquatches in that bowie a while back.
Thanks again,
Darcy :campfire:
Darcy, I'm glad you asked.
I always forge it square but I don't grind off the corners, I forge them into the bar. I place the twisted bar lengthwise on the power hammer dies and draw it widthwise. If I was doing it by hand, I would just hammer it a little at a time back into a rectangle of a size suitable for blades. I like 3/4 inch X 1/4 inch. All of the spiraled corners are driven in along with the flats, not directly on the points. They just suck into the bar as you forge the flats. You may have to see it done. It's very hard to explain but quite easy to do.
That makes sense. Thanks Lin.
Darcy :)