I'm making two knifes to commemorate a special hunt and friendship, once completed I will post with a story on Pow wow and see how long it takes for my friend to discover!
This is the first knife (two of them)I have attempted to make.
I have started on design and wood
working which I am very comfortable
(http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j435/Tloran/knife/2013-03-08093519_zps4ef1e79d.jpg) (http://s1085.photobucket.com/user/Tloran/media/knife/2013-03-08093519_zps4ef1e79d.jpg.html)
(http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j435/Tloran/knife/2013-03-28184714_zpsa4faf1a9.jpg) (http://s1085.photobucket.com/user/Tloran/media/knife/2013-03-28184714_zpsa4faf1a9.jpg.html)
(http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j435/Tloran/knife/2013-03-28184703_zps6452909f.jpg) (http://s1085.photobucket.com/user/Tloran/media/knife/2013-03-28184703_zps6452909f.jpg.html)
(http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j435/Tloran/knife/2013-03-28184651_zps7440a204.jpg) (http://s1085.photobucket.com/user/Tloran/media/knife/2013-03-28184651_zps7440a204.jpg.html)
(http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j435/Tloran/knife/2013-03-28184642_zpsc5bdee87.jpg) (http://s1085.photobucket.com/user/Tloran/media/knife/2013-03-28184642_zpsc5bdee87.jpg.html)
I have gotten to choosing metal and gaining knowledge on blade building. I have done lots of metal working but never blade building. I'm only going to buy stock and work, forging may come in later attempts.
I love the finished blade and raw metal tang look. what stock would you suggest?
I have another question that might influence what I do is tempering. I have heard of normalizing and tempering what is the diff and how does it relate to the blade. also came you temper in an oven using 3 one hour 375 to 100 degree cycles? I have access to a tempering oven, how do I temper a blade using it?
Looks like you have a great start. As for the stock, you have a wide variety available to you. I've only used carbon steels but if you have access to a heat treating oven, you could also use stainless steel. The different steels will dictate how they're hardened and tempered. I don't have a heat treating oven and simpler carbon steels work better for what I have (5160, 1084).
Normalizing is a process used to help reduce "grain" size in the steel which will lend to a better (with proper hardening/tempering), more tough knife. That's a very simplistic way of putting it. With carbon steels, I do 3 reducing heats; bring the knife just up to critical, then out of the forge to cool to a black heat in still air. A second heat, but not quite as hot, then cool, and a third time, again a bit lower temp. When the blade gets quenched, it hardens, but is brittle. To lower the hardness and impart some toughness, the knife gets put in an oven to temper.
I'm not sure I completely understand your last question about tempering and times. The higher the temperature that you temper the blade at and the longer you do so, the more hardness you'll lose. It all comes down to which steel you use (and the desired hardness for the knife being made) as to the proper quenching and tempering recipe.
Hope that helps you some. Feel free to keep asking questions, there are a lot of great guys on here to help you out.
Jeremy
Jeremy has some good info there.
Here's my advice.
Either pick a simple steel that requires minimal equiptment to heat treat.......I recommend 1084. Or use an annealed stainless or tool steel and send it out to a professional for heat treat. There's a guy in Alberta that does a good job with heat treating if you go that route. If you need his contact info you can PM me.
Once you decide which of these options you prefer, then we can help you out with more detailed answers.
Darcy :)
0-1 ,1084 , or 1095 would all work great
Check out these threads
http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=110;t=002144
http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=110;t=004206
(http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j435/Tloran/knife/2013-04-17174126_zps04891b98.jpg) (http://s1085.photobucket.com/user/Tloran/media/knife/2013-04-17174126_zps04891b98.jpg.html)
(http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j435/Tloran/knife/2013-04-17180052_zps17ce688a.jpg) (http://s1085.photobucket.com/user/Tloran/media/knife/2013-04-17180052_zps17ce688a.jpg.html)
(http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j435/Tloran/knife/2013-04-17180052_zpsf53b821c.jpg) (http://s1085.photobucket.com/user/Tloran/media/knife/2013-04-17180052_zpsf53b821c.jpg.html)
here is the handle how it would look on the design blade. Trying to find some material still and decide on ss or carbon. looked for files with no luck.
(http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j435/Tloran/2013-04-23174329_zps20179176.jpg) (http://s1085.photobucket.com/user/Tloran/media/2013-04-23174329_zps20179176.jpg.html)
(http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j435/Tloran/2013-04-23174130_zpsfbdbea9e.jpg) (http://s1085.photobucket.com/user/Tloran/media/2013-04-23174130_zpsfbdbea9e.jpg.html)
a couple practice trys on metal work for back of blade and handle
Looks good. Keep plugging away. Might think about reducing thickness of handle scales some before glue up. I would also temporarily attach handles and shape handle outline and sand spine to 220-320 grit before the file work. This way you have to only hand sand spine after heat treat and glue up rather than risk damaging file work on grinder when shaping and rounding handle. A few drops of super glue can temp hold on the handle. Be very careful to clean up all epoxy squeeze out to also minimize grinding after glue up.
Handle thickness is purposeful, I'm keeping them one peice at the bottom of the tang and routering them out to fit the tang on top to show iron work.
metal arrived, got 1084 and S30V SS, decided to try with the ss for my first.
(http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j435/Tloran/2013-05-31182648_zpseffe6ea5.jpg) (http://s1085.photobucket.com/user/Tloran/media/2013-05-31182648_zpseffe6ea5.jpg.html)
(http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j435/Tloran/2013-05-31182657_zps5e4eadf7.jpg) (http://s1085.photobucket.com/user/Tloran/media/2013-05-31182657_zps5e4eadf7.jpg.html)
(http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j435/Tloran/2013-05-31183315_zpsfc30b0a7.jpg) (http://s1085.photobucket.com/user/Tloran/media/2013-05-31183315_zpsfc30b0a7.jpg.html)
Here I transposed the templates onto the steel, I have make one template for rough design and one for a more refined finish size.
Do you guys and gals sharpen before heat treating or wait until after. I have heard sharpen and then touch up/ hone after the heat treating.
Tim
Sharpening and usually final grinding is done after heat treat. Most people typically leave blade as thick as an 1/8" at rough grind, then harden and temper, then final grind. Edges are usually ground as thin as .020-.030" before edge shaping and sharpen. Remember that during heat treat you are scaling up the blade and all of that is then ground off after heat treat. It is better to lean on thick side for heat treat then thin the blade as you work down to final finishing grits.
Remember heat treat is a generic term for several specific steps including normalizing, annealing, hardening and tempering. You'll also hear other terms that fall under the heat treat umbrella.
Thanks, I'm sending away for normalizing, annealing, hardening and tempering, so did not know at what stage I should be done to. I'm putting a tapper on the blade right from the top of the tang to the blade surface, going from 1/8 " to the blade, do I still leave this for after the normalizing, annealing, hardening and tempering?
Here are a couple new pictures maybe they will help with my above description????
Here I have removed stock to the basic design rough template and will start to modify to finer detail.
(http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j435/Tloran/2013-05-31184159_zpsdf57aa96.jpg) (http://s1085.photobucket.com/user/Tloran/media/2013-05-31184159_zpsdf57aa96.jpg.html)
(http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j435/Tloran/2013-06-02200024_zps95246cdd.jpg) (http://s1085.photobucket.com/user/Tloran/media/2013-06-02200024_zps95246cdd.jpg.html)
(http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j435/Tloran/2013-06-02200104_zps3fba6ab1.jpg) (http://s1085.photobucket.com/user/Tloran/media/2013-06-02200104_zps3fba6ab1.jpg.html)
(http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j435/Tloran/2013-06-10174926_zps2baecb3b.jpg) (http://s1085.photobucket.com/user/Tloran/media/2013-06-10174926_zps2baecb3b.jpg.html)
The final picture is to the final rough stage, hopefully gravy from here. The fine detail will start from here bringing it to the final template size and adding the file work and etching,trying to figure out the time line with some of this and heat treating.
A little thinning out of the stock and preparing for heat treat.
(http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j435/Tloran/2013-06-13195214_zpsd829a11a.jpg) (http://s1085.photobucket.com/user/Tloran/media/2013-06-13195214_zpsd829a11a.jpg.html)
I am going to lighten the blade by cutting/drills holes under what will be the handle, should I do this before of after heat treating, also etching and file work described above, I would guess I would do after also??? help please!
You can do it either way, but remember that if you harden it first, you might have to use diamond files to do your filework.
There is some variance in procedure as long as you are prepared for the next step. The same with drilling the lightening holes. You may want to keep some carbide drill bits on hand just in case.
The alternative is to file and drill before heat treat, but you might increase the chance of a blade breaking in the quench.
If I was making a half dozen of the same knife, I might opt to file and drill first and take the risk of one breaking. If I was making a one of a kind, I would heat treat first and use what ever files and bits it took to get it done.
I have been hesitant to comment much since you are making a style that I dont do much, but I'm speaking from my experience only and I think it might help.
Just looking at your blank profiles, I think you are going to have an interesting time inletting that tang down into the top of the handle without a gap at the rear. Not saying you can't do it, but it is going to be very time consuming undercutting the rear of the slot so it matches the curve on the top of the tang.
Ron
Thanks very much guys, everything is new to me and I'm learning from tons of mistakes Im making on my journey.
starting to finish!
Getting ready, laying out file work on top of tang, I have coded with which side the work is to be done on so I don't screw up.
(http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j435/Tloran/2013-06-16203501_zpse5876371.jpg) (http://s1085.photobucket.com/user/Tloran/media/2013-06-16203501_zpse5876371.jpg.html)
Completed file work on one of the match set, starting the other. Wear bandages and gloves prior to starting, because if not, you will be wearing bandages after. LOTS OF BLISTERS!
(http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j435/Tloran/2013-06-16203519_zps5a6344c5.jpg) (http://s1085.photobucket.com/user/Tloran/media/2013-06-16203519_zps5a6344c5.jpg.html)
(http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j435/Tloran/2013-06-16203526_zps647d4b82.jpg) (http://s1085.photobucket.com/user/Tloran/media/2013-06-16203526_zps647d4b82.jpg.html)
(http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j435/Tloran/2013-06-16203511_zpsdf22638a.jpg) (http://s1085.photobucket.com/user/Tloran/media/2013-06-16203511_zpsdf22638a.jpg.html)
Etching, should I do this before heat treating?????
Looks good so far. Much better than my first knife. Looking forward to the finished product. I do see one thing that I may have done differently. I believe you said the handle is a one piece design that will slide onto the tang from the bottome and then be pinned in place? It probably would have been easier to get your pin hole drilled in the handle if you had done it before shaping the handle. You should still be able to do it fairly easily, but it will take a little more care to keep everything level for a straight hole. I mention this because I built my first hidden tang knife about a month ago and did the same thing. Got it drilled ok, but had to be extra careful to not let it roll on my drill press while drilling. From now on, I'll get my blade finished, fit the block of wood to the tang, mark the tang location, drill the pin hole and then shape the handle and fit it to the gaurd profile.
By the way, are you hooked yet? Keep at it.
Matt Toms
Thanks Matt, I discovered this a tad to late also, but think I should be able to get through it, but have already had one handle failure. I also did what you are describing on both duplicates. I have learnt I have done several steps backward, and may have to start over on the handle if needed.
It's good to look at a mistake as a learning experience. Helps keep you from getting discouraged. You'll also remember a lesson learned from a mistake far better than one learned from a book. Also, I had some mess ups when I first started grinding blades last year that I set aside as scrap, but luckily didn't trash. I have recently taken what I have learned since and gone back to these blades and been able to make a decent knife out of them by slightly modifying the shape/grind profile/etc. to remove the original mistakes.
Matt Toms
getting ready to send off to tempering but may have to wait, because of floods in Alberta, My brothers are ok (other than loss of house) and hopefully everyone else ok and people bounce back from a devastating disaster.
here is a update to my special build.
dry fitting handle, etc.
(http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j435/Tloran/2013-06-23091613_zps488c01cf.jpg) (http://s1085.photobucket.com/user/Tloran/media/2013-06-23091613_zps488c01cf.jpg.html)
(http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j435/Tloran/2013-06-23091624_zpsf77fcc38.jpg) (http://s1085.photobucket.com/user/Tloran/media/2013-06-23091624_zpsf77fcc38.jpg.html)
(http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j435/Tloran/2013-06-23091637_zps6b9fdb20.jpg) (http://s1085.photobucket.com/user/Tloran/media/2013-06-23091637_zps6b9fdb20.jpg.html)
You have a very unique design going on here. I like it a bunch.
Darcy :)
It went out for heat treatment today by mail, hope it is back in a week so I can start doing final details and putting it all together.
Any suggestions for buffing, it is S30V Stainless steel.
I wouldn't buff it - at least not initially. I would suggest hand rubbing it with wet/dry paper, on a piece of steel or hardwood, starting with 220 grit and working my way up through at least 400 grit. If you work one grit until all the scratches are going the same way, then change direction with a finer grit until all the scratches go in the new direction, you can get a pretty highly polished surface without a lot of rounding off or dishing out. If you want a real mirror polish, go up to 1000 grit and only when there are no scratches showing at all, hit it lightly with some fine buffing compound.
By the way, if you are using a buffing wheel, be careful. They sure like to snatch a blade out of your hand and stick it in your leg, or the wall across the room. I'd rather not tell you how I learned that.
QuoteOriginally posted by Bladepeek:
By the way, if you are using a buffing wheel, be careful. They sure like to snatch a blade out of your hand and stick it in your leg, or the wall across the room. I'd rather not tell you how I learned that.
True story. :eek:
QuoteOriginally posted by Bladepeek:
By the way, if you are using a buffing wheel, be careful. They sure like to snatch a blade out of your hand and stick it in your leg, or the wall across the room. I'd rather not tell you how I learned that.
I think I will try not to learn that one from a mistake I make, but I will learn from your words. Thanks for the advise.
Matt, the sticking in the leg was a "could easily happen, but hasn't" thing. The "sticking in the opposite wall" actually did happen and I had to change my pants after that. This was probably 20 years ago and I had just started with "semi finished" blanks and was putting handles on them. Had a little 6" buffing wheel on a bench grinder and that blade wound up sticking in the wall. Sure was a wake up call!
I have a good buffing setup now, but still treat the buffer more carefully than any other tool in the shop.
Ron
Thanks Darcy, I'm naming it the "MT goat". It kind of came together as I started to play with designs.
The blade tapers from the top to blade, I will drill several more lighting holes, so I hope will be a good hiking go to knife for weight.
Tim
Ron, I did the same thing with a little full tang hunter. It was actually on the first knife blade that I ever ground myself. Mine just stuck in the workbench under the buffing wheel, but it stuck almost 1/2" into the wood. A sharp corner on the end of the tang sliced my finger open, but it wasn't deep. And, now that I think of it, I haven't done a polished finish on a knife since. I'm trying to tell myself that it's because I like matte and satin finishes better, but I may be subconsciously scared to try it again. :)
You might need to get a straight flute carbide bit if you are drilling after heat treat. Those type bits have been the only ones I have found to work on hardened steel. $20+\\- for a drill bit is a lot but they are very handy. Good job so far!
Thanks for the info, I will see what I can find.
I have some Carbides what is a straight flute?
Other carbides may work. The straight flutes I like have grooves parallel to shaft rather than the typical spiral fluting on most bits.
I used to use the spiral fluted carbid bits to drill pin holes in prehardened blade blanks when the factory pin holes weren't where I wanted them. Haven't used the straight flutes, so I can't say which is better, but the spiral worked fine for me. You may already have used carbide bits and know this, but whichever one you use, be VERY patient. Drilling hardened steel is very slow and it doesn't take very much pressure to break a carbide bit. Even trying to be careful, I have broken several.
Knifes back from heat treating, started to wet sand by hand, seems like very slow progress but going good, spent 5 hours at it today. getting handles final finished and tried etching today, not very successful. It did nothing!
You say you "tried etching". What are you etching? The blade, if it was the stainless blade, or either blade if it was commercially treated, will be hard all over. There will be no hamon or temper line.
Or are you talking about etching a mark in it?
Ron
talking about etching a mark in it using the salt etching process outlined in a previous forum salt water etch along. can this be done on tempered SS blades?
(http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j435/Tloran/2013-07-08072417_zps9259fb9b.jpg) (http://s1085.photobucket.com/user/Tloran/media/2013-07-08072417_zps9259fb9b.jpg.html)
an updated picture of how they are looking. lots of work still, but getting closer.
salt water etching
(http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j435/Tloran/2013-07-09113449_zps4e941b23.jpg) (http://s1085.photobucket.com/user/Tloran/media/2013-07-09113449_zps4e941b23.jpg.html)
(http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j435/Tloran/2013-07-09121528_zpsf4dbb49e.jpg) (http://s1085.photobucket.com/user/Tloran/media/2013-07-09121528_zpsf4dbb49e.jpg.html)
etching done, final sanding and putting it together.
(http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j435/Tloran/2013-07-09152158_zps5406c9be.jpg) (http://s1085.photobucket.com/user/Tloran/media/2013-07-09152158_zps5406c9be.jpg.html)
(http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j435/Tloran/2013-07-09152212_zpsaeaf7c6c.jpg) (http://s1085.photobucket.com/user/Tloran/media/2013-07-09152212_zpsaeaf7c6c.jpg.html)
(http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j435/Tloran/2013-07-09152130_zps517e163e.jpg) (http://s1085.photobucket.com/user/Tloran/media/2013-07-09152130_zps517e163e.jpg.html)
I just am doing final fit, then will epoxy into handle.
DONE!
Well I'm done, what a adventure of errors and learning. I have made an almost matching pair of Mountain goat skinners, one for my friend and one for me. Allan has put up dragging me up and down mountains four years. I am now going to post on a thread in the pow-wow forum my 4 years of goat hunting adventures and present this knife on Trad Gang to my friend Allan (TDHUNTER). Not until he responds on that thread will the knife go in the mail.
Here are some pictures of the final product!
(http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j435/Tloran/2013-07-14173821_zps7681920d.jpg) (http://s1085.photobucket.com/user/Tloran/media/2013-07-14173821_zps7681920d.jpg.html)
(http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j435/Tloran/2013-07-14173407_zps8248e771.jpg) (http://s1085.photobucket.com/user/Tloran/media/2013-07-14173407_zps8248e771.jpg.html)
(http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j435/Tloran/2013-07-14171644_zps8e32152f.jpg) (http://s1085.photobucket.com/user/Tloran/media/2013-07-14171644_zps8e32152f.jpg.html)
(http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j435/Tloran/2013-07-14173708_zps58b91d07.jpg) (http://s1085.photobucket.com/user/Tloran/media/2013-07-14173708_zps58b91d07.jpg.html)
(http://i1085.photobucket.com/albums/j435/Tloran/2013-07-14173511_zpsac92fdfd.jpg) (http://s1085.photobucket.com/user/Tloran/media/2013-07-14173511_zpsac92fdfd.jpg.html)
Well done!
Now use your experience with these and make another. :D
Thanks Lin. I have one lined up, but it will be a little different for sure. I can always look in this forum and get expired by your work and the work of all the other excellent knife makers here in trad gang.