Just a question on knife design.....what makes a Bowie a Bowie? Is it blade length and width, overall length? Is it always a clip style blade or can you have a drop point Bowie? I'm thinking about getting a big knife and just thought I'd become educated on the topic....lol! Any thoughts....thanks! ron w
a little different definition for about anyone you would ask. I guess there would be 2 major camps, the historical "Bowies" and the modern rendition.
For me a modern day Bowie has to have a few features, 1- at least a 9" blade, 2- a clip, preferably sharp 3- a guard and 4- a substantial handle.
Here is a "modern" version-
10-3/4" blade, 5-1/4" handle, forged from W2 round bar. Simple, comfortable, cuts both ways.
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8051/8119034104_d73fb48902_z.jpg)
I think it is a very loose term these day. I agree with the above on a 9 inch blade being a good start, although some gentlemens bowies(or sunday go to meeting bowies) can be smaller.......maybe a 7 inch blade.
I also think a bowie can be a clip point, spear or drop point or even a trailing point and still fit the genre. Here's a handfull(har har) of mine that I consider bowies.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/45stomp/P1010388n.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/45stomp/P3130375s.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v486/45stomp/bladensheath.jpg)
Darcy :)
Really nice guys.........
Here is one of mine, I like it.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v75/comanche/Custom%20Knives/Dcampbellknife.jpg)
Another a bit different style.
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v75/comanche/Custom%20Knives/untitled.jpg)
I always thought "The Iron Mistress" used in the Allan Ladd movie about Jim Bowie was the quintessential Bowie.
(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e285/bard9l/IronMistress.jpg)
But then there is the Bart Moore Bowie.
(http://i41.photobucket.com/albums/e285/bard9l/BartMooreKnife.jpg)
Here is some information copied from an article written by John Bryant of "Alamo de Parras". Hope this better defines a Bowie knife for you.
A Knife Like Bowies
The first Bowie knife was made by myself in the parish of Avoyelles, in this state (Louisiana), as a hunting knife, for which purpose, exclusively, it was used for many years.
Rezin P. Bowie, Planters Advocate: August 24, 1838. 1
Born of fire and steel a common hunting knife, the Bowie knife generates more mystery and controversy than possibly any other weapon in history. The legend of the Bowie knife began in a few brief moments on the banks of the Mississippi River in September of 1827. Called at the time a "sanguinary affair," the "Sandbar Fight" firmly cemented the Bowie knife's place in history.
Outnumbered, shot and bludgeoned, James Bowie held four assailants, killing one and wounding another with what witnesses called a "big butcher knife"2(or just a large knife). After an earlier assault in Alexandria, Louisiana, James's older brother Rezin [pronouncedReason] gave him the knife so that he would never again be caught unarmed. This first assault was by Major Norris Wright who, incidentally, was the same person who later died by Bowie's knife on that Mississippi sandbar.3
Rezin Bowie said, "The length of the blade was nine and one-quarters inches, its width one and one-half inches, single edged and not curved" ...quite different from the Bowie knife as it came to be recognized. 4
Many legends surrounded the final disposition of the "Sandbar Bowie" knife, but mystery shrouds its ultimate fate. According to Bowie family legend, James Bowie returned the knife to his brother, Rezin, and one of Rezin's grandchildren lost it. 5Some, however, speculate James Bowie always carried it.
Noah Smithwick, a Texas blacksmith, claims that James Bowie brought the knife, which had now been fitted with Ivory handles and silver and did not wish to degrade it with ordinary use, to him in San Felipe to have duplicated. 6It seems that the Bowie brothers had a penchant for giving presentation Bowies to friends and acquaintances, which only adds to the confusion surrounding the knife. According to Smithwick, the knife he worked on was the one that made its way to the Alamo. Whatever its end, we have clues to the knife's appearance and to a few surviving period knives that also claim to be "The Knife."
Presently on display at the Mississippi State Historical Museum in Jackson, Mississippi, the Schively/Perkins Bowie matches the original description of the Knife used in the Sandbar fight. Evidence strongly suggests that the Schively/Perkins Bowie was not intended as a presentation piece, but may have been Rezin Bowie's personal knife. Eventually, the knife became a gift to Jesse Perkins of Natchez, Mississippi.7
The knife had a 10-1/4 inch straight back blade with no guard, fitted with checked Ebony handles and mounted with silver. The pommel of the knife bears the initials R.P.B. in a script engraving. The silver sheath bears the inscription "Presented to Jesse Perkins by R P. Bowie - 1831". The knife is a simple and functional piece, beautiful in its simplicity and this author's choice for what the original resembled.
Daniel Searles, a cutler from Baton Rouge, Louisiana, made the Searles/Fowler Bowie now on display in the Alamo. It is one of the finest examples of an early Bowie in existence. Daniel Searles appears to have been Rezin Bowies favored cutler. Although there are four presentation knives attributed to his shop, only two can be positively identified as a Searles knife. This bit of information comes from Miss Lucy Leigh Bowie a family relative who made one of the earliest efforts to separate legend from truth.8
The Searles/Fowler knife was a gift to Captain Henry Walker Fowler a member of the United States Dragoons. Fowler owned the knife until his death in 1848. The Searles/Fowler knife is a straight back knife finished with silver and checked ebony handles. It has a 9-1/4" blade with a shape much like the Schively/Perkins. A small, almost non-existent cross-guard, if seen from a distance, could easily cause it to be mistaken for a butcher knife. A gold-plated insert on the back of the blade bears the inscription "Searles, Baton Rouge, La.." The silver scabbard is inscribed "R. P. Bowie to H.W. Fowler, U.S.D. 9
The Stafford/Searles Bowie, presented to a Mr. Stafford of Alexandria, La., looks much like theFowler/Searlesknife only slightly larger and without an inscription. It is still owned by descendents of Mr. Stafford and remains in a private collection. Miss Bowie named two other knives that she believed were made by Daniel Searles for Rezin. One was given to Governor E.D. White of Louisiana. The knife and any description of it have long since disappeared. Subsequently, there is no proof that it was actually a Searles Bowie or that it was presented by Rezin. 10
The other blade Miss Bowie attributed to Searles is a knife that was once owned by Edwin Forrest, a well-known actor of the period. He alleged that Jim Bowie personally gave him the knife. Its blade is twelve inches long with a very slight clip point. While it has checked wood scale handles, it bears more of a resemblance to the Schively/Perkins knife than it does to any other known knives made by Searles. No markings or inscriptions appear on the knife. It was not until many years after the deaths of James and Rezin Bowie that this knife became known. This made it suspect as actually being aRezin/Searlespresentation knife. 11
The knife presently on display in the Alamo Long Barracks Museum is attributed to Rezin Bowie as presentation piece given to Cephas Ham. Ham was a companion and friend of the Bowies and a member of the party who searched for the fabled San Sabá mines in 1831. The Knife has a 8 - 1/4" blade with no guard a very crude clip point and checked wooden scales, made from an old file it still shows some of the files surface. The Alamo has almost no documentation on this blade only that the donor claimed it was given to Ham about 1834 making it another chapter in the Bowie legend 12
Several knives claimed the title of "Original Bowie Knife" or at least that they were the knife that traveled with James Bowie to the Alamo. Most assume, however, that the Sandbar knife was the one Bowie carried for the rest of his life. It is likely that as his reputation and social standing grew, James replaced that first knife with a better, fancier knife and may have done so several times.
The Bart Moore knife is a claimant for the title of Bowie's Alamo knife. The Moore family asserts that an old Mexican soldier, who claimed to have participated in the storming of the Alamo, gave the knife to Mr. Moore's grandfather. The soldier supposedly retrieved the knife from where it lay by one of the funeral pyres and had kept it for many years. He offered it to Mr. James F. Moore as payment for a five-dollar debt.
The Moore Knife is a Clip point blade 8-1/4" long with iron furniture and an oak handle that appears to have been replaced. The blade has "J. Bowie" scratched on one side and the initials J.B. on the other. This knife not only claims to be the Alamo Bowie, but also the knife made by Arkansas blacksmith James Black from Bowie's original idea. Black claimed to have made two knives, one as Bowie requested and one of Black's own design. Bowie chose Black's design over his own. 13
The Saunders museum in Berryville, Arkansas has another knife that James Black supposedly made for Rezin Bowie as a presentation knife. It has a 6-1/2" clip point blade and finely made hardwood coffin handles attached by six pins with a silver wrapped pommel, silver bolster and escutcheons. The blade is engraved "Made and Presented To His Friend Capt. Thos. Tunstall by Col. Bowie - White River - Arkansas Ter. Near Batesville - 1833". This is a well-made and finely detailed knife with engraving similar to the inscription on the Schivley/Perkins knife. This leads some authorities to speculate that it could be another Schively crafted blade. 14
The San Jacinto Museum has a spear point Bowie on display that Madame Candaleria alleges she took from the Alamo and later gave to the family of Sam Houston. Candaleria claimed that she was the nurse of James Bowie during the Alamo siege and took it from his body after his death. The English-made knife is marked W. & S. Butcher. It has a six-inch blade with a small nickel cross guard and is fitted with stag scale handles. There is also a second Alamo Bowie given by Candaleria to Charles Campbell of San Antonio who displayed it in his drug store. 15
It is unlikely we will ever know the actual appearance of the original Bowie knife. Its metamorphosis from a big butcher knife to the huge clip point knife in just a few short years prompted Rezin Bowie to say: "The improvements in its fabrication and state of perfection it has acquired from experienced cutlers, was not brought about through my agency." 16
This comment from Rezin seems to hint that the "original Bowie knife" was only a simple hunting knife. It had no clip point, nor massive cross guard, like the knives Rezin was so fond of giving as gifts. Whatever the fate, whatever the actual design, the knife baptized in blood that September day began a legend that has inspired generations to want "a knife like Bowie's."
Thanks Rick, I think that I will search for a knife that will be able to be carried and used as knife and also a woodsman tool. Something that fits the hand well and cut be used for a multitude of tasks. Whether hunting or camping.
This is though to be close to the original "Sandbar" Bowie design (the Schively/Perkins Bowie):
(http://www.timlively.com/images/schivelyperkins.jpg)
And here is one Rezin (Jim's brother) Bowie had made by Searles.
(http://www.timlively.com/images/searlesbowie.jpg)
These two probably represent what the original "Bowie Knife" looked like.
I'm glad to see this subject discussed in a calm and non argumentive manner here on TG. Cant say that for some forums. We have no actual definition other than a vague one.
I'm sort of like Matt Lamey. I think of them in two classes; the modern and historic. I like both and think they both are Bowies. However, I think some characteristics are common to both that generally sets them apart from other type knives even though those others might be large knives.
I think of them as having natural handle materials, a sharp point with a clip (I prefer sharp), and a cross guard. This could come in lots of variety of sizes and themes. Retro and contemporary or a mix. I prefer natural and retro but make a wide variety. Above all, it needs to be well done and functional.
Here are a couple of examples of what I would consider Bowies. The first one is a reproduction of a style built in the 1840's
(http://farm3.staticflickr.com/2770/4362737947_f960e8033e_z.jpg?zz=1)
The next one is totally my design.
your pics are to wide please resize and post again thanks.
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8449/8000621288_1fbe8ce236_z.jpg)
This is just my opinion, but I believe that the term "Bowie Knife" has come to define an evolutionary lineage of knives rather than one style of knife. Jim Bowie wasn't the first person to use a large knife for fighting, but he is probably the most famous for it. After he achieved his fame, it appears that people started using his name to describe most large fighting knives. Over the years, the design has evolved since most of us aren't satisfied with leaving things the way they are. Whether successful or not, we tend to modify designs with the intention of improving them. This results in an evolution of designs with many branches and end results. The same thing can be seen with the term "deer rifle". My dad killed two nice bucks this season with an AR rifle that nobody would have called a "deer rifle" 15 years ago.
The most popular "Bowie" knife being made today is the basic design that has been discussed on here so far: A larg knife, usually a hidden tang, with a cross gaurd, and a clip. But I think a lot of other knife designs could probably trace their lineage back to the Bowie knife concept as well, even if they don't carry the name. Examples would include the classic KA-BAR, as well as other "combat knives" such as the SOG Seal2000 or the Cold Steel SRK. Many of the design characteristics of bowie knives can also be seen on modern hunting knives.
To answer your question, what makes a bowie a bowie is the cutler that makes it. I saw a hidden tang drop point with a 4 inch blade one time that was called a "Mini drop point bowie" and who's to say that the cutler didn't design the knife using various bowie designs for inspiration. I also talked to a man who refused use the term bowie knife to describe his knives, which were clearly modern bowies, because he built his knives as tools, not weapons, and he didn't agree with Jim Bowie's violent lifestyle. There will always be disagreements over exactly what a bowie is, but one thing is for sure: It makes for some great forum threads.
Regards,
Matt Toms
Mr Rhea, beautiful work......I have to agree with what's been said by all.....I guess I'm looking for a functional outdoor tool that will fit in on float trip in a Kayak or around the camp doing chores....a plain jane working knife! Thanks for the input fellas......
Here something for thought, if you want to go WAY back, the seax/scramaseax shares alot of characteristic with the modern Bowie, especially the low tip/no belly angular styled Bowies.
Here is an example of a seax in the British Museum of History, this one is a bit later era, but the same basic shape as the earlier "long" seax/scramaseax blades
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8353/8343374765_1662b5834a_z.jpg)
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8035/8072351221_5065ec901d_z.jpg)
Interesting subject!
Steve
---------
Potomac Forge
W.F. Moran Jr. Museum & Foundation
Some VERY pretty knives shown here. I do have to say that the knife that Lin describes as totally his design is my favorite, with the Doug Campbell knife that Danny Rowan owns being a really close second. I got a similar Campbell Bowie made from 52100 in the St. Jude auction last summer, and it is a remarkable tool that would certainly be effective in the right hands in a close combat battle. The other knives by Lin, Matt and Karl are amazing knives too, but I do have my personal favorites, even by the same bladesmith.
Allan
When I think of "Bowie" style knife my mind usually sees "Rhea" stamped right above the guard! Great topic and beautiful knives by everyone.
Some folks get pretty wound up with what can be called this or that. Don't want to ruffle feathers but I'll do a little play on words and say the "Bowie" is in the eye of the beholder. ;)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/gotahunt/R0011864.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/gotahunt/SpearpointBowie-Coop.jpg)
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v82/gotahunt/Doug%20Campbell%20Journeyman%20Smith%20Knives/CampbellJSKnifeI.jpg)
Lord have mercy, These are some beautiful knives.
Thanks for sharing
Gadzooks Doug !!! Those are amazing pieces.
Those all look like bowies to me. Fine work.
Darcy :)
its amazing... folks here on TG, both makers and customers, seem to have a better grasp on what a "Bowie" is then the big knife sites.
Yeah, I know its a broad definition, and I know it varies alot with each person.
I will say this, there is something about a big Bowie thats built right, it will put a big smile on your face when picked up, unlike any other knife for me.
As far as a working Bowie, does anybody like a spear point blade over the clip style.....would one be more durable than the other? By the way....beautiful examples have been shown!! :thumbsup:
You are a real poet, Doug.
And one hell of a knife maker.
Ron,
So much depends on the intended use of the knife. I recently made me a Bowie (Bear Claw). I wanted a sharp clip, sort of pokie in case I need to finish a hog or something. It will work fine around camp, but my Camp Knives are shaped slightly different still. The Camp Knives are usually better at chopping but not as pointed on the tip. To me, a Bowie has to try to be more of a "do all" knife, borrowing some of the characteristics of other type knives wrapped up in a pretty and traditional (in my view) package.
The account of Jim Bowie approaching James Black with his wooden pattern illustrates that he and Black both had their ideas of what made a good design for Bowie's intended purpose. We are not exactly (100%) sure of that first pattern but, the chronological descent of knives that were influenced by Bowies knife gives us a general picture of the knife.
Man-o-man. What a bunch a knives!!
Lin, are there any surviving examples of Jim Bowie's knives?
Where could I find the account of the meeting with Mr.Black?
CTT
Thanks Lin, I guess I have to decide how much work I'm going to with it. I'm thinking clearing shooting lanes, work around the camp/kitchen and what ever was needed on a canoe/kayak trip. I'm glad I asked these questions......it has enlightened me!! :notworthy: :notworthy:
Can this be called a Bowie?
your pics are to wide please resize and post again thanks.
I'm thinking that would be a fine example.....very nice!
I dont care what you call it, it gorgeous!
Karl, that's nice. My kind of Ironwood too.
I'm glad you asked it too Ron!
Chuck, We (where I work at the Historic Arkansas Museum)have two that are presumed to have been Jim Bowie's knives, one being made by James Black. I say presumed because there are very few knives with iron clad provenance. We do have one made by Black, for sure, but circumstanial evidence of a couple more, including the Bowie Number One. Strong evidence, beyond question in my view. We also have another knife that was likely owned by Bowie, The Bart Moore Bowie (shown above).
For the account, you can google it or find several books about it. Dr James Batson wrote a detailed and comprehensive booklet about it. I have one somewhere. He visits sometime and I guess I take it for granted when we are discussing the subject. However I do collect books and articles about it. The book "The Bowie Knife, unsheathing the legend" is another source of information but presents the account in a somewhat negative light.
That beaut looks huge Karl. What a great looking knife.
Thank you Lin, Such great history in a style. and you have access to it each day. It sure would be great to work with that kind of history as inspiration.
Great stuff guys. Now I want me one of them short swords!!
CTT
Dang Karl, I'd call that one "BB" for Beautiful Bowie! A masculine beautiful of course... ;)
Here is a couple of reference works that provide some insight on the whole James Black involvement in Bowie Knives. Admittedly, it would be good to access the Flayderman book to compere it's "findings". Also a picture of the booklet I mentioned above by Dr Batson. It appears to be out of print but this might lead to one somewhere on the web.
One can glean enough information to piece together a reasonable picture of the account if you are willing to read.
Its interesting to me how being in the room with those knives can elicit a deeper interest in this subject. It emphasizes the importance of museums and historic preservation in general.
Revisiting the James Black Question After the Flayderman Opus by Bill Worthen (http://truewest.ning.com/forum/topics/the-sandbar-fight?commentId=2518161%3AComment%3A86641)
(http://farm9.staticflickr.com/8045/8363950001_ed759e73ff_o.jpg)
With that full guard it does look like a short sword and I can see in a fight how it could be a very intimidating weapon. Yet still cut your biscuit in half to mop the gravy at dinner....lol!
That picture with the full gaurd got me thinking. I saw a picture one time of a civil war era reverse edge d-gaurd bowie. Supposedly, these were somewhat rare, but were favored by more experienced knife fighters. Having the curved sharpened edge on the top of the blade was suposed to make it a more effective weapon by allowing it to be swung upward, meaning that the knife could go under rather than through the enemy's rib cage. This fighting style also allowed you to keep a more crouched compact stance instead of stretching out and exposing yourself with an overhand swing. If anybody has any pictures of this style knife, I would love to see it posted. I guess this would be one of the branches in the Bowie's family tree that never really caught on and eventually died out.
Awesome thread, beautiful knives!
Back to the top to see if there any more thoughts on the subject...... :notworthy: Thanks
Ok now my thought is I want one :goldtooth: