Hey Guys,
I found some old niicholson files lying in the shop the other day and considered turning them into knives. Problem is i've never made a knife from scratch. I've bought blade blanks and added the handles but i'm pretty lost on starting from scratch. Can some of you more experienced guys point me in the right direction as far as what steps i need to take like tempering, heat treating, beveling the blade. Thanks for your help!
Adam
Adam,
First things first. You'll need to anneal the files. Heat to dull red and immediately stick in some wood ashes or vermiculite and let it stay over night or several hours. That should soften it. Then start filing to shape. After that take a picture of the blade and put it here in this thread and we'll go from there. How's that? You can do it.
I'm going to watch this tread. I to have some old files & have been wanting to make a knife.
Thanks for the response Lin. I will work on it this week and get some pictures posted. Thanks
Adam
lin is always a great help, not only does he build beautiful knives he is a great person offers his help every chance he gets. there are many other very nice and helpful fellas on here. there is more knowledge offered by the knife builders on this site that can be obtained in a life time. good luck in your knife building adventures p.s.(its very addictive)
I will follow it to!
Thanks for bringing this up Adam. I've wanted to do the same thing. I'll be following along.
Many people start with file knives and there are many that will discourage you from doing so because of the questionable steel type and makeup. I want to urge you all to dive in and give it a try. I have made several file knives and have been very happy with the results.
Although I have moved into blade steels I still save my dull files and use them for practice forging and shaping. I recently found a post where someone mentioned Dr. Batson had tested some modern Nicholson files and determined they were close to 1095 (more like 1091 if I remember correctly). I recently heat treated a prototype hunter from a Nich file as 1095, convexed the edge and tested it a bunch on rope, brass rod, wood chopping, etc. I was real happy with the results.
Here is a previous build along post that might be helpful.
http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=110;t=000665
That is a great build-a-long. I missed it first time around. Very helpful indeed.
That build-a-long is very helpful thank you!
I called the metallurgical engineer at Nicholsons a while back. Their standard file steel is and has always has been 1095. A few of their fancy or specialized files have been higher carbon steels. I do not agree with the folks who claim a modern American steel file cannot make an excellent knife. Hammonds, Simmonds, and Nicholson files are all made from top grade American steel. I have a lot of file knives out there and have never had a complaint or a return. Files from China are another story!
that is good info Ragnarok, thank you.
well i did make some progress tonight. I was able to heat the file up until the entire length was nice and red then i pulled it out and stuck it in a metal tin full of old wood ash. It will sit tonight and most of the day tomorrow until i get off work and able to cut out the shape of the blade. Maybe i will have some pictures to post tomorrow.
File Knives...I love 'em. This one skinned at least 1/2 dozen bears before it earned it's stag scales :) tippit
(http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v110/tippit/Knives/BostonTwister003.jpg)
Tippit,
Is that the one you took to bear camp with the green paracord handle. Love the stag handle too.
I have made many blades from files and find them to make very good blades. I worked at the simmonds file plant in ohio before it closed and can tell that all files made there were very high carbon steel. other elements were added to enhance use. vixen files were made from steel having a small amount off chrome added to them,they also make great knives. have fun and enjoy.
Tony, That was last years bear camp winner.
Dag gone Jeff,thats cool,but whats it gotta do to get ivory????Like a bushel basket of em????
:p
Ok, I had a little time to work on it and got it rough cut and ran it across the belt sander a few times and this is what we have. Still have plenty of work to do before we get to the final shape if i decide i like this one. Not sure if i like the design or not. What do you guys recommend the next step is?
(http://i1097.photobucket.com/albums/g350/adamcobbler/100_0115.jpg)
Start the blade bevels and drill handle bolt holes.
Note: If you are having a hard time deciding whether you like the design, it means you aren't drawing the knife first. Please draw it and know before hand if you like it. A drawing pad and a big eraser will save lots of work.
Kevin,
Maybe it will take a JS stamp for me to use some of my pre-ban elephant ivory :rolleyes:
Looking good so far Adam. :thumbsup:
Adam,
I'LL be watching carefully as I have two files annealed ready to go and I'm on vacation this week. Your example has encouraged me.
Macapple
I saw the website for anza knives and watched a little video clip of their knife making process. All their knives are made from Nicholson files.
Well guys it will probably be after thr 1st before i have any updated pics. With the holidays coming up i'm going to have limited shop time this week and next but i will keep this thread going as i make progress. Thanks for all the help so far!
Adam, I don't mean to hijack your thread, but since it is about old files.... I wanted to ask the experts out there (forgive my ignorance, but this is my first attempt at turning a file into a knife) - is it normal for the file to emerg warped after the annealing process? I've heated three files to red hot/non-magnetic and when I've taken them from the ashes the next day they are warped.
I'm using el cheapo' generic brand files since I'm just starting, would a higher quality file such as a Nicholson not be prone to warping?
Cheap files will not work. They are case hardened mild steel. Use Nicholson files.
Thanks Lowell, I will do that. Nicholsen files are hard to find here, but I will track one down!
if you find old files, how do you tell what brand they are, is it marked on there? Where do you guys find is the best place to try and track down proper files?
usually, the brand is stamped just above the tang... just like a knife. Nicholson is the most known brand, but there is a bunch i guess. As long s they are american made they are supposed to be good.
The junkers I tried were made in India. :rolleyes: Others had no stamp.
Out of curiosity I checked on fleabay and saw heaps of used files. Lots of used Nicholson brand too.
The best place to find good quality used files is pawn shops,usually about a buck each around here for made in USA files
QuoteOriginally posted by Roconman:
The best place to find good quality used files is pawn shops,usually about a buck each around here for made in USA files
I second this. I just picked up two Nicholson's at a local pawn shop for $2. Very timely topic. I just started my first file knife last week.
Question: I annealed by heating with a torch to red hot, then quenched in motor oil. It is soft enough to file and sand now. How to I harden it once I have my bevels cut?
If you heated then quenched you hardened it. It has to cool slow to soften.
I thought that was the way it worked, but another site said to do it that way. Either way, I couldn't file it before, but after the HT and quench, I can. If I reheat and let it cool slow, will that make it even softer? Thanks for the help.
Pac'em out,
As akaboomer said, if you actually heated to red hot and immediately quenched in water or oil, the steel would be so hard that you could not file it. It would ruin another file. If you did something close to that it is still not as soft as I would want it to be filing on it.
As Karl pointed out in another thread, heat treating is the whole process, while you are at the stage in the process of softening (annealing) the stock, which in this case a used file. I would recommend that, after getting all of your equipment prepared, heat the old file (blade stock) to a dull red and cool it slowly. This might be where the confusion is. Slowly, in this case, means hours of slow cooling.
Thank you, gentlemen. That makes sense now.
Are Swiss made files of sufficient quality to make into a knife? I'm having difficulty finding a Nicholsen file over here.
Perhaps you could get the steel type from the maker of the files. That's where I would start. You may have to send an email or two but it may be what is needed.
Chris
I would have to guess that Swiss files are good steel, but that is a guess. Get ahold of the engineer or materials manager from the company on email. They will be able to tell you the steel type. I would have some pictures ready. They can often tell you the year they were made which helps identify the steel. Here is another trick. Heat the steel up to nonmagnetic or a bit past. Quench it in water. Put the file in a vise and hit it with a hammer. If the steel breaks off you have hardenable steel that will work for a knife. Try it again with canola or another oil and see if the steel breaks when hit after hardening.
Thanks RF. I will try the heat, quench and hammer test today. I appreciate your advice!
Does anyone know if the Nicholson files made in Brazil are of the same quality and steel as the ones made in the USA?
I tested a Brazilian made Nicholsen farrier's rasp a couple of years ago that was case hardened. I've never heard of any American made Nicholsen products that weren't high carbon steel, though.
I heated the end of the file and quenched it in water, then hit it with a hammer. Instead of shattering the file broke and this is how it looked. I'm new at this, but am I correct that the grey innner material that looks like chalk, and the darker surface material indicates it to be case hardened?
This is the only Nicholson file I could find here.
(http://i111.photobucket.com/albums/n140/ryanita/006.jpg) :(
Gray Rhino-
The steel looks just how it should. Nice fine grain. Shattering is commonly used to describe the desired effect for this test, but Ive never had one truly shatter, only break cleanly like yours has here. The file appears to be high carbon steel, and is not case hardened. I would trust it to make a knife with.
Good luck.
Brandon
Thanks Brandon, that's a big help. I'm learning every step as I go along with this project.
I've been watching this thread and hope I can ask a question and not robbing the thread by any means...
1.- Can you just heat the file with Mapp gas or propane torch till dull red?
2.-Does the ash have to be warm ash or can it be just like ash from a pellet stove and cold?
3.- When you are done shaping the blade do you reheat then quench in oil or cold water slowly?
4.-Thanks and forgive me if this has been already asked previously...
Keefer-
You could use a MAPP or propane torch, but you'd have a difficult time keeping even heat on the blade.
The ash can be cold or warm, it is just to help retain the heat for a long period of time.
When done shaping, heat the blade until a magnet will not stick to it, then quench in warm oil, careful not to move the blade from side to side. Also, never quench in cold water, that will cause the blade to crack.
Brandon
Brandon, thanks for the helpful info you've posted on this thread.
I'm curious as to why should the blade not be moved from side to side when quenching in oil. The few youtube videos I saw of quenching in oil showed the blade dipped in oil and swirled around a little.
I'm going to jump i here and make a comment or two.
The quench, for the sake of this discussion, is a deliberate plunge into the oil, not a slow movement. Not a splash or a slosh, just stick it in there. A slow action would allow the blade or parts of it to cool below the necessary temperature to acheive the transition to full hardness.
Also the only "swirling" action should be a "slicing" or "sawing" of the oil, IF ANY. Please dont "paddle" it as with a boat paddle. You'll warp your blade a higher percentage of the time paddling. When you paddle from side to side the quench is sucking the heat out of the steel at an un even rate. Warpage. If you dont allow for the even reduction of heat, there cant help but be more stress pulling at one side or another. Thus warpage.
I mentioned EVEN HEATING. If you want to be successful at heat treating, you have to think EVEN HEATING AND EVEN COOLING. For that to happen you must have a CONTROLLABLE HEAT SOURCE. That means large enough and steady/contollable enough. You must have the right QUENCHANT. That means an oil of some sort most of the time. You also must have the right METHODS to get it done in the right sequence.
Some post I've read here mention off the wall, risky methods of heating and quenching (I am speaking mostly of comments about mis-information, not solid alternative methods). Sometime you will get lucky doing that, but more often than not the blade shaped piece of steel just survived the process in one piece but the guts of the knife are pretty tore up. In other words, a high percentage of them are not hardened all the way along the edge or are left too hard or too soft after the draw. OR worse, the all important grain has grown to the size of sand grains and the blade will break on you when you need it most. Most of the time the tip will break off in this circumstance leaving you scratching your head. I'll tell you why. Because of un even heating and cooling and poor methods.
BTW, you'll see lots of things on ***tube that are not things you want to do. I watch it too, but I skip over some of the stuff that I know will get me in trouble.
A file is mystery steel. We think it's 1095 or W2 or whatever. If you are going to use mystery steel, there is a logical approach to the heat treat. You can not take an arbitrary recipe from the internet or from an old timer and hope to get a good knife out of it if you dont know the type of steel.*edited to clarify: unless you know how to properly test.* Assuming it is 1095, then you have to do your part with the heat source, quenchant, and methods.
You might review this thread from a while back.
My Thoughts on Heat Treating (http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=110;t=002974)
Lin's reference back to that other thread would be a very good idea.
There are so many loosely used terms tossed around this thread, I don't know how anyone could help but be confused.
I agree that the heat thread revisited is great. This is why I prefer known steel from a reputable supplier. The cost of known, quality steel is less expensive than multiple failures due to " mistery steel" with home brew HT recipes. My free time is a rare commodity so I can't afford it to be a " I hope this works situation".
Just my thoughts on files overall.
Chris
Lin, thank you. That makes sense. I appreciate you taking the time to give advice to those of us who are just starting out.