Trad Gang

What is the PBS doing as an organization in the way of actively lobbying against / working with the state DNRs to shape plans, as it pertains to the inclusion of the crossbow in state archery seasons?

I'm an associate member and if my understanding of the PBS official position is accurate our dollars do (or should be) used to actively oppose such initiatives. Are they, and if they are, how can I get directly involved here in Indiana?

My home state of Indiana has passed a proposal, which is now open for public comment, that will allow crossbows to be used during archery season. Their public rationale is two-fold: 1. antlerless deer population management and 2. hunter recruitment.

Obviously there are alternative means by which the state can meet objective #1.

- lengthen the early archery season statewide by starting it Sept 15th (right now general season opens on Oct 1st statewide and Sept 15th in urban deer zones)
- institute a doe before buck harvest rule statewide and promote in conjunction with the new rule the donation of the wild game meat to an org like Farmers and Hunters Feeding the Hungry
- lengthen general firearms season

Point #2 (as it is fully articulated on the state's website) reads like it was written by the ATA or the NACF. Legalizing the crossbow for use in archery seasons will not increase the total number of hunters in any given state, it will simply bring more gun only hunters into archery seasons. It's a thinly veiled ploy to generate more license revenue and a complete roll over to the ATA and NACF lobbying in support of the crossbow at the state level.

Secondary questions related to the topic: have we gathered any finite data from states like OH that have had enough time in with a crossbow shared archery season to provide some hard data? Have we invested any dollars in this type of research in an effort to support our position with fact? Have we had any successes in opposing crossbow in archery season initiatives in any other states?

Just for the record, I hunt with both a compound and traditional tackle. I am not opposed to modern equipment and fiercely belief that unity among responsible, ethical, like-minded bowhunters is essential to our long-term success and defense of our sport. That said, I draw a hard-line at the crossbow in archery seasons, as it undermines everything that those that came before us stood for and envisioned when they fought so diligently for bow only seasons. The crossbow in our archery seasons is becoming an increasingly slippery slope and could in the very near future rob us of precious time afield and force upon us an association, by way of public digestion of manufacturer and ATA advertising, with crossbow users as "fellow bowhunters". They want the general public to perceive the crossbow as archery tackle and are having great success currently with their efforts. Pick up any hunting magazine or watch Versus for a few hours.

I have no problem with crossbows in the woods during firearm season, special weapons seasons or in the hands of a handicapped hunter but I do have an issue, given my desire to protect my ability to bowhunt long-term, with their inclusion in archery seasons.

Money makes the world go round and unfortunately right now we're on the short end of this one. We have nothing more to offer the state in the way of additional license revenues. Many of us are also shooting equipment made by manufacturers that also make and sell crossbows (and actively lobby individually and via the ATA for their inclusion in archery only seasons).

That said, if we can use fact to disprove the state's position that allowing the crossbow in archery seasons is BEST way to 1. better manage the antlerless deer population and 2. recruit NEW hunters, we might have a fighting chance. The states are also leaning on the position of wanting to increase the number of days afield for hunters. Any hunter wishing to can already increase their number of days afield, by learning a new skill - archery. It is not the states job to cater to the crossbow hunter by infringing on those of us that have been purchasing licenses and supporting the state wildlife budgets for years.

Also, something I think about increasingly, once the crossbow is in the archery season, what's to keep the ATA and NACF from lobbying the state to do away with traditional tackle, using "facts" to prove that it's relatively ineffective when compared to the modern equipment their constituency is peddling?

I apologize for the rambling. I'm very concerned and anxious to learn more about what we're actively doing as an organization and how I can positively impact our efforts.

Have you contacted PBS directly about this matter.  There is a wealth of information out there.  You may also want to cantact the NABC (North American Bowhunting Coalition)  It is made up representatives from State bowhunting orgs as well as those Provinces in Canada.  
You are correct in your fears.  And you are also correct on the money aspect, as well as the ATA involvement with crossbow usage.
Crossbows do not recruit new hunters, merely firearms hunters who wish to hunt the archery season.  Also, by allowing bowhunters to kill deer in urban areas, and assist in getting land access to bowhunters, State game agencies can and will see more deer dead.
Contact your legislators and let them hear the facts.  Set up a face to face meeting, write letters, visit their district offices, whatever you have to do in order to present your side.  In this day and age, all people care about is money, and with budgets being tightened, they will stoop to no level to create a new license to increase revenue.  The crossbow is not the second coming, I hate to rain on the pro-crossbow lobby's parade, but the truth is the truth.  good luck with your fight.

Al, I have and it seems that the PBS has formed a coalition (North American Bowhunter Coalition), consisting of the PBS, P&Y, Comptons and numerous state orgs.  They are meeting in April to discuss next steps.  I'm in MN on business this week and may find time to stop by the P&Y hdqtrs to discuss with their point person.

I really don't think the PBS is very effective.  It's pretty hard to ban a bow just because you don't personally like it.

Cold Weather, ban a bow?  I don't think that's what we're talking about here.  It's not a bow.

JJB2

a crossbow is a bow.  It's a type of archery equipment.

btw..the US Government says its a bow-crossbows are taxed on the archery BOW category.

because it is archery equipment and indeed a type of bow-its very difficult if not impossible to present valid arguments against it.

I think the major point here is that archery and bowhunting are recreational activities.  People participate in them for enjoyment.  Some like to participate in the sport with stickbows-others with compounds-and others with crossbows.

And, some like to use all of them.

I personally do not care what people choose archery equipment wise in the field-as long as they abide by the game laws.

Sorry Cold Weather, the government says a lot of things we know aren't true. Anything with a shoulder stock and a fixed trigger is not a bow.
And we aren't against people using them, just not in our hard earned archery seasons.

CW, no just because "bow" is in the name does not make it archery equipment.  It is by design, a gun that shoots little darts, takes minimal ability or practice to become proficient with and creates distinct advantages over archery equipment (trad or compound), by being able to be held in a cocked position and shot with a scope.  

Our US gov't categorizes them the way that they do because of the lobbyist dollars the ATA and NACF spend cumulatively to create the "archery" association.  The potential revenue pool to manufacture the crossgun would not be worth their time without that association.  This has been a long range strategic objective of the ATA manufacturers - get em into the state archery seasons and then cash in at the registers.  No one's gonna buy em if they can only use them during firearm or special weapons season.

PBS didn't form the NABC.

Steve, I posted the same topic on the PBS website and Tim Roberts (who Greg Darling had put me in touch with as the point person on the anti-crossbow activity) said the PBS is working with those organizations under the NABC umbrella.  Perhaps "formed" was the wrong word choice but as I understand it the PBS's activity is being focused toward working through the coalition.

QuoteOriginally posted by JJB2:
CW, no just because "bow" is in the name does not make it archery equipment.  It is by design, a gun that shoots little darts, takes minimal ability or practice to become proficient with and creates distinct advantages over archery equipment (trad or compound), by being able to be held in a cocked position and shot with a scope.  

Our US gov't categorizes them the way that they do because of the lobbyist dollars the ATA and NACF spend cumulatively to create the "archery" association.  The potential revenue pool to manufacture the crossgun would not be worth their time without that association.  This has been a long range strategic objective of the ATA manufacturers - get em into the state archery seasons and then cash in at the registers.  No one's gonna buy em if they can only use them during firearm or special weapons season.

that's very interesting but really untrue.  There is no such thing as a "crossgun"-the word does not exist in any dictionary.

the word "crossBOW" however does.

I was just reading Petersen's Bowhunting Magazine-and there was a crossbow article in there.

I was also just reading the latest issue of ARROWTRADE and there were articles on crossbows as well.

I recall reading a book called The Archer's Digest-and there was crossbow articles in there as well.

does it have advantages?  all bows have advantages and disadvantages.  Granted, it is easier for a first time person to learn to shoot-however all top scores are recorded with compound bows.  It's disadvantages include it is more awkward to carry in the field and slower for a second shot.

one of the great advantages of a crossbow is it allows those of slight build who may be confined to use equipment of modest draw weight/performance (women, kids etc) to use equipment where there are no physical limitations.  It's more humane in the field.

the crossbow dates much earlier than firearms-over 2000 years-so claiming it is a "gun" is impossible to support.  Further to that, they are not regulated by the ATF.

Currently, crossbows are allowed in WY, OH, GA and others-in Canada ONT, BC, and QC and there are just no delerious effects to the archery seasons so claims by PBS etc just have no merit.

Really, the claims are much similar to when compound bows began to make inroads-claims they weren't bows-would destroy archery seasons-too easy-etc..

I really find it odd as an argument-the claim of no skill would be used.  First of all-there is no demand of skill to get a bowhunting license.  I used to work as an archery tech for a large outdoor store-saw people all the time who would come in-go bowhunting-who had zero skill.

I've seen traditional archers who bowhunt who frankly can't hit a bale of hay at 20 yards.  

there are lots of "bowhunters" out there-both compound and stickbow who lack any dedication to shoot with any degree of consistant accuracy.  If you doubt me-just go to your local archery shop that has lanes and watch people shoot.

I went over here:

 http://usarchery.org/search?q=crossbow&x=9&y=9

this organization oversees archery at an Olympic level-and when I typed in "crossbow" in the search engine I got hits.    ;)  

the National Bowhunters Education Fund has an addendum to crossbow hunting:

http://wyomingcrossbow.wordpress.com/news/nbef-releases-todays-crossbow/

and  http://www.crossbowusa.com/About_Us.html

Quotecompete at many local and regional tournaments, an Indoor and Outdoor National Championships, the World Archery Festival in Las Vegas, the NFAA Indoor National Championships, the WAF Archery Classic, and the International Bowhunting Organization 3D World Championships for sport crossbows.

a crossbow isn't a bow-yet they are at the World Archery Festival-the NFAA championships-the IBO????? etc...?

I could go on-but rather than argue an crossbow isn't a bow-which is baseless-I think we should allow others-and give them the respect-to choose what they feel is best for them.  They give you the respect for you to choose what is best for you.

JJB2,
 Good luck with your mission, I watched it shoved down our throats here in Michigan.

I was goin to say more, but I guess that would be politics and tradgang frowns upon politics. And I don't mean choosing sides, I mean big money getting it's way, not the citizens vote.

Dan

Just because it's called a crossBOW no more means it a bow than a seaHORSE is a horse or a groundHOG is a hog. It's just a name given to the weapon in history lore because as it was said, guns weren't invented. What else would they have called it in that time period? Had it been invented last week it might have been called a crossgun...but what's in a name anyway as the weapon is still the same weapon regardless of the name assigned to it.

The real issue with a crossbow isn't it's effect in and of itself. Rather, it's a symptom of a need by wildlife agencies to provide more choice to promote revenue, higher harvest, and participation. Unfortunately, it becomes the first step in a broadening arena of choice that not only includes crossbows; but also black powder rifles and firearms. "Choice" is not the sole domain argument of the crossbow advocacy and in that fact is where the devil lives. The crossbow may be argued NOT to have have caused the shortening of an archery season through it's harvest impact; however it cannot be said that crossbow legalization hasn't predated the abbreviation of archery only seasons by the 'choice' advocacy. There are cases where crossbow legalization was followed or legalized in conjunction with increased black powder dates in formerly archery only season structures. The same theme of "choice and participation" were used to include black powder weapons in formerly archery only seasons. Virginia and North Carolina come to mind as quick examples based on my understanding of the issue. The crossbow is just a first (but important) step in the blending and shortening of archery only formats...particularly true in areas of expanding herds and lower hunter numbers in general such as in the southeast. In as much it serves as a conditioning step for future change.

Ironically, the increased participation reasoning often used to promote the weapons legalization is not always true. The states of Georgia, Tennessee, and Alabama have less participation in archery seasons today than they did pre-crossbow legalization just a few years ago. In the case of Tennessee and Alabama both states archery particpation went down the very first year of crossbow legalation! The state of Georgia barely missed that ironic distinction as out of nearly 100,000 archers, crossbow legalization increased that states archery sales by 671 license...barely over 1/2 of 1% in the first year of crossbow legalization. Losses started occuring in the third year of legalization in Ga and at one point participation was down over 30% from it's pre-crossbow numbers!

As far as allowing youth and individuals of slighter build to participate in archery formats....all I can say is that my on son was only 9 when he killed his first deer with a 33 pound compound. This from a kid that was never big or strong enough to play any school athletics. I have a hard time buying into the disenfranchised argument from my own frame of reference.

As far a the degree of skill (or lack thereof if that's the case) required to shoot a crossbow, I will let that lay. However, I think any legimate archery weapon should at the very minimal require an archery skill set to shoot it. Is there any archery skills (either basic or advanced) required to shoot a crossbow? I'm not aware of any.

"The states of Georgia, Tennessee, and Alabama have less participation in archery seasons today than they did pre-crossbow legalization just a few years ago. In the case of Tennessee and Alabama both states archery particpation went down the very first year of crossbow legalation! The state of Georgia barely missed that ironic distinction as out of nearly 100,000 archers, crossbow legalization increased that states archery sales by 671 license...barely over 1/2 of 1% in the first year of crossbow legalization. Losses started occuring in the third year of legalization in Ga and at one point participation was down over 30% from it's pre-crossbow numbers!"

Is there research that can draw a direct correlation between the inclusion of crossbows in the GA archery season and the trend of decreasing archery participation that you indicate? Without such research data how can you be sure crossbows were causative in this impact?

As far as TN is concerned, in 2005 the same year crossbows were included in their archery season they also had a 35% increase in archery license fees. Do you have research that directly links decreasing archery participation to crossbows in TN? How did you factor out the impact of the increased license fee that was put into effect the same year? Is it possible that the inclusion of crossbows might have actually minimized the overall impact of the license fee increase?

I have contacted Don McGowan of the GA DNR and Daryl Ratajczak of the TN DNR about the impacts of crossbows in their respective states and neither indicated the availability of scientific, sound, statistically significant research data that would allow me to answer my questions.

If you have such data, I would appreciate the source so I can contact them and investigate further.

Thanks!

Without research intitiated by the individual states in question, (not likely at all) cause and effect will be impossible to determine. While the cause and effect may be in question, the facts are clear that a reduction in participation did occur in direct contridiction to the crossbow's merit claims. A fact that was not only evident in the great state of Tennessee after a license sales increase, but also in the adjacent state of Alabama which did not have a license fee increase. Georgia did have a 'very slight' bump in the first year but the famed Nicholson report was documented in not the first year when such a cause and effect might have been more closely associated with it's legalization; but rather the second year which in the states trending pattern was an anomaly. It's just been my thoughts that to produce such a well circulated report that takes the second year of crossbow legalization against the first year of legalaztion is a flawed measurement as cause and effect is undeterminable. In some years
that followed, archery participation declined when overall hunter numbers increased. It's one of the more odd stats from that state.

While I cannot assert anything but the accurate  facts associated with the decreased participation in more than one state upon the weapons legalization, the facts are that at least in terms of archery growth the crossbow is a statistical dud... in at least a few states.

In contrast to the crossbow stats in Tn, Al, and Georgia which show declining trends, Mississippi during the same time period (a non-crossbow state except for WMA's) has shown steady archery participation and in fact a very slow growth during the same time period. Even I have to admit it all to be circumstantial but a reasonable person would likely conclude that while the crossbow in these states may not have hurt anything that can be directly linked to cause and effect..... it's likewise unsupported that it has met it's claims of participation growth & retention which is a very core aspect of the crossbows's legalization effort.

At the end of the day, I believe every hunter that purchases a hunting license has an equal opportunity. Archery seasons are open to all and the supreme 'choice' above all is the individual freedom to decide to make the personal decision of participation. "Choice" when defined as an individuals preference of weapon selection is a two edge sword; in that the basis of all special seasons (archery/black powder) owe their existence to government issued weapon restrictions. A person can't argue weapon choice logically when it's not universally applied to all users and weapon preferences. However, to do so moves you away from the archery only aspects of season allocations.

It's just a personal view point that I believe the compound bow was the great compromise in the sport that offered the sport to women, children and the physically weaker among us. I really don't think that has changed a great deal in the last 35 years or so.

Excellent points Stringwalker.  Crossbow folks do not want to hear that their SAVIOR is nothing more than a marketing ploy to decieve state game agencies.  Here in NY, archery license sales have been on the rise for the last several seasons, from 172,000 a few years ago to over 200,000 last year.

Also, in NY, a bow with a minimum draw weight of 35# is legal tackle.

Facts are facts, and the pro-crossbow sides does not rely on them, they tug at heart strings by parading wounded veterans to legislators.  The selfish, elitist bowhunters are keeping them from bowhunting with a crossbow.  Shameful to say the least.

It is unfortunate that media whores have succumbed to turining every page or video clip into into an opportunity to to push a product, regardless of its worthiness or the truth behind it.

The PSE Tactical Assualt Crossbow mounts onto the body of an AR15 which can pretty much robin-hood at 100 yards according to the rep, the TwinBow II can be cocked, reloaded and fired in 3 seconds, and the new Parker Concorde utilizes a Co2 cartridge to auto-cock it.  Where is the archery aspect in these products.  To go one step further check out the Airrow line of rifle barrels for a Ruger .22 caliber rifle.  You can shoot arrows from it once the barrel is installed.  I guess that's archery as well because an arrow is shot from it too.

But, I'm just a selfish, elitist, anti-hunting bowhunter who doesn't want to help the young, weak, female, elderly or disabled hunter out there.

The facts are there, the options are there, and the future is there.  Take an honest look and think if it really is archery or not, and what the agenda is.

"Even I have to admit it all to be circumstantial but a reasonable person would likely conclude that while the crossbow in these states may not have hurt anything that can be directly linked to cause and effect..... it's likewise unsupported that it has met it's claims of participation growth & retention which is a very core aspect of the crossbows's legalization effort."

Mark:

That is a good honest assessment of what you can tell about the crossbows impacts on archery participation and and it's value as a tool in hunter recruitment and retention based on currently available data.

My guess is that in the future we may see survey work that will begin to reveal better and more accurate information about the impacts of crossbows on archery participation and it's value as a tool in hunter recruitment and retention.

If I were a betting person I would put my money on its role in the retention of older hunters (age 50 and older), particularly older existing firearms deer hunters who use it to go from one to two season deer hunters. But again, until survey research is done to discover the motivations as to why older hunters when given a choice, choose to use a crossbow, and the influence of this choice on their decision to continue hunting, we really will not know.

Take care,
JCJ

Stringwacker

the crossbow was designed likely after the recurve/longbow.

man thought was there a better way to aim the bow, and to hold it at full draw.

the bow design is at least 2000 years old, and most likely much older.

are there "archery skills" to shoot an crossbow?  Well, you do have to judge distance but I will admit with the laser rangefinder it makes it real easy.  Still, for hunting the same challenges of getting close apply.

one interesting argument is that the crossbow is "about money".

if it's about money-then there has to be a DEMAND for the crossbow.

Now, I personally know one dedicated longbow archer-but he also hunts with an crossbow.

myself, I use traditional equipment, but also shoot compounds and the crossbow.  I guess I am just into all forms of archery.  :)

are there people who aren't dedicated an into archery who will take up the crossbow?  Yes, just like there are people who aren't dedicated who take up traditional bows and take up compounds.

every year, more and more states are allowing crossbows in the archery seasons and it will continue.  

I think that is great because more and more people will participate.

interesting enough, I thought of the first ever time I shot an arrow-and it was with a crossbow.  I was about 9 at the time, and went over to a friends house and they had a crossbow and let me shoot it.  I guess that first couple shots was what motivated me to be into the sport now for over 40 years!  My life long love of archery has taken me to events like the North American Longbow Safari, the PBS to see bows advertised in Trad Bow Hunter Magazine, plus tours of major archery companies.  I met Glenn St Charles when he had NorthWest Archery in Seattle..etc..

QuoteOriginally posted by Al Dente:
Excellent points Stringwalker.  Crossbow folks do not want to hear that their SAVIOR is nothing more than a marketing ploy to decieve state game agencies.  Here in NY, archery license sales have been on the rise for the last several seasons, from 172,000 a few years ago to over 200,000 last year.

Also, in NY, a bow with a minimum draw weight of 35# is legal tackle.

Facts are facts, and the pro-crossbow sides does not rely on them, they tug at heart strings by parading wounded veterans to legislators.  The selfish, elitist bowhunters are keeping them from bowhunting with a crossbow.  Shameful to say the least.

It is unfortunate that media whores have succumbed to turining every page or video clip into into an opportunity to to push a product, regardless of its worthiness or the truth behind it.

The PSE Tactical Assualt Crossbow mounts onto the body of an AR15 which can pretty much robin-hood at 100 yards according to the rep, the TwinBow II can be cocked, reloaded and fired in 3 seconds, and the new Parker Concorde utilizes a Co2 cartridge to auto-cock it.  Where is the archery aspect in these products.  To go one step further check out the Airrow line of rifle barrels for a Ruger .22 caliber rifle.  You can shoot arrows from it once the barrel is installed.  I guess that's archery as well because an arrow is shot from it too.

But, I'm just a selfish, elitist, anti-hunting bowhunter who doesn't want to help the young, weak, female, elderly or disabled hunter out there.

The facts are there, the options are there, and the future is there.  Take an honest look and think if it really is archery or not, and what the agenda is.

Al

as a supporter of crossbows and all archery I only rely on facts.

the PBS etc on the other hand...  ;)  

I have shot the PSE Tech 15 and it indeed does what is said of it.  I got 405fps thru the chronograph.

it is quite the product-but it too expensive for the masses.

it still remains though, a close range piece of equipment.

now, and this is interesting.  Saxton Pope wrote a book called HUNTING WITH THE BOW AND ARROW and there are numerous references in there to shots at game animals to 65-75 yards and shooting out to 100 yards.

in Howard Hill's HUNTING THE HARD WAY it is claimed that he shot at an elk at 200 yards.

now, I don't believe that anyone here would advocate shots like that, but just to make a point-which is the same point you make of the Tech 15..  ;)  

Regarding the other equipment-they use a bow to shoot an arrow-so they ultimately are archery equipment.

the exception being the Ruger 10/22 which uses a charge to shoot an arrow.

CW, the subject of the thread is, "PBS Involvement in State Level Crossbow in Archery Season Initiatives?"  I've yet to read anything in any of your posts that is germane to the topic.  

If you're interested in debating the crossbow's merit as archery tackle, perhaps start a seperate thread.

Everyone knows that several well known bowhunters did in fact take shots that in today's day and age are deemed unethical.  That has nothing to do with what PSE claims the TAC 15 is capable of.  I have never heard ANY manufacturer claim that a compound, recurve, longbow or selfbow can do robin-hoods at 100 yards.  And yes, there is a demand for it, as there is a 9 month waiting list for it.  Facts are facts.

I've been fighting this for nearly a decade, and each year the pro-crossbow folks would parade a different "poster child" to tug on emotions, so please refrain for pointing fingers at PBS, when PBS issued a pamphlet with data from the Marlowe Report, and even produced a video about crossbows. With both being based solely on facts, not emotions.

Game agencies are enticed to fill coffers with excise taxes collected from Pittman-Robertson and license sales.  So yes, it is all about the money.  If they cared about management they would help in getting land access, lower bowhunting ages, publicize available programs, and establish better cpmmunication with sportsmen instead of lobbyists.

Not jumping into the crossbow debate as it relates to inclusion in archery season, but.......

Tac15`s are in stock in many archery shops and available for immediate purchase.

Tac15`s may be slightly more accurate than most other crossbows, but they are not capable of robin hoods at will.

Compound bows kick the crap out of crossbows in every national archery tournament across this country. When you take a crossbow off the sand bags they are only more accurate for beginning archers, not for experienced vertical bow shooters.

And just for the record, while I have shot several top end crossbows in order to see what the big deal is.....I have never owned one, or hunted with one, and the good Lord willing, I never will. Just not my cup of tea.  :)

"Game agencies are enticed to fill coffers with excise taxes collected from Pittman-Robertson and license sales. So yes, it is all about the money. If they cared about management they would help in getting land access, lower bowhunting ages, publicize available programs, and establish better cpmmunication with sportsmen instead of lobbyists."

Al:

That is a wee bit of an over-generalization. As an employee of a state agency I get tired of hearing such nonsense.

Here are just a few initiatives that we have been involved in that benefit bowhunters:

1) To date have acquired 58 state forests encompassing 4 million acres with most being open to public hunting
2) To date have acquired 1.3 million acres of State Wildlife Management Areas open to public hunting
3) Lowered minimum age for bowhunting big game to age 10
4) Lowered minimum draw weight for bows from 40 to 30 pounds
5) Worked with local archery and conservation groups to establish mentored bowhunts for youth and women
6) Worked with local groups to create a model for the use of bowhunting in urban deer control
7) Established an active MN Bowhunter Education Program
8) Granted more than $300,000 to fund a vibrant and active NASP program that today has 370 participating schools with 160,000 youth participants
9) Established the MN Bowhunting and Archery Coalition that meets twice a year with a goal of increasing bowhunting and archery participation
10) Provided more than $200,000 in local archery range development and improvement grants

Furthermore, when it comes to the issue of crossbows I have never once had a lobbyist contact me and try to pressure or bribe me to push the pro-crossbow agenda.

I have spent the last 23 years of my career working for the betterment of hunting and shooting sports. I don't do it for the money of the fame. I do it because I want to do what I can to pass our hunting heritage on to the next generation. And, I take this task very seriously. In the future please think twice before you paint all state game agencies and personnel like myself with such a broad brush!

JCJ

From what I have encountered, you are a rare breed and should be commended for your actions and acheivements.  I am speaking from my experiences and it leaves a foul taste in my mouth.  Our (NY) DEC has repeatedly ignored, feigned ignorance, flat out lied and renegged on past compromises to the bowhunters of NYS.  It is always the bowhunters of NYS that have had to pay more for less.  I'll say it again, you should be commended and are a credit to your department.

As far as crossbow inclusion goes and the pro-crossbow Lobby's true agenda, one needs to look no further than PA.  In just a few years you can just about plant a tulip bulb with a crossbow.  They entered under the guise of being utilized by the disabled.  The PGC was told by the pro-crossbow side that they would expect around 400 handicapped crossbow permits.  Well, that first year it was legal for only the disabled hunters to use, the PGC got over 43,000 permit applications.  Due to the wording of basically needing just a doctor's note attesting to your shoulder injury, they had to grant over 21,000 permits that first year.  A far cry from 400 wouldn't you say.  Then year after year, they just kept on chipping away until it finalized into the archery season, the real agenda finally emerged.

Fight it, fight it, fight it.

I think the post made earlier about the discussion straying from the original topic was worth posting. A lot of websites hate crossbow merit discussions because usually it turns into an emotional squabble in about 5 post. This one has not done that however.

My interest was perked by the mentioning of the PBS connection. I am a PBS regular who sits on the anti-crossbow committee as a rather obscure member. I certainly don't talk for the PBS. That being said, I love to look at the data from the various states and I keep journals of trends and follow several states on a year over year basis. I think I was the first to see that several states were not meeting the benchmarks that the crossbow advocacy was using.

The PBS's value I think to the anti-crossbow effort probably involves around it serving as a 'think tank' for ideas that might be useful in various states struggles with the issue. The PBS (nor any other bowhunting organization that is not state based) certainly is not the calvery because these are state issues that have to be worked out on a state level. In other words, the calvery ain't coming so we might as well lace up our own boot straps and do it ourselves.

I do want to say something about the TAC 15 since I've made a connection with the posted topic:) One must realize that wildlife departments don't approve just the crossbow of today; but the one of tomorrow as well. The TAC 15 is advanced beyond it's competition but likely will be a standard met in future years by all manufacturers. I'm going to connect a very interesting video on the TAC 15. I've read the rules and I don't see that I can't. If it's something that shouldn't be done, I trust that someone will delete it.

   http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gly3bafUhcU

Cold Weather

Looking at your profile        :eek:       ... I see your a Canadian, not even an American where this legislation is being proposed and pushed in many of OUR states.. You live as I read it in Manitoba... History has proven just how smart Canada and other British influenced countries are when it comes to shooting choices and peoples rights..        :thumbsup:      

Gene Carroll
La Center,
Washington State......"USA"

Since hunting with a crossbow does not interest me, I am not 100% certain of the exact year, but PA included disabled crossbow usage roughly 18- 20 years ago.

Being a lifelong PA resident, and having the luxury of hunting just about every single day of archery season for most of the last 25 years if I wanted to, I have yet to see a fellow hunter using a crossbow here in PA.

Lots of folks buy them, but it takes a certain mentality to stick with a crossbow or compound for hunting. Even though the learning curve for a new hunter is shorter with the crossbow, the scent control and general hunting methods are still identical. Contrary to what many folks want to believe, the efficiency and effective range are almost identical when comparing the two weapons.

My "guess" is that the folks who buy crossbows and stick with archery season for long at all are folks that already archery hunted anyway and have the patience required for such a short range game.

There is no data available from any of the growing number of states with full crossbow inclusion that show any negative impact on the local herd health. Ohio has been fully inclusive for 33 years now and the sun still rises in the east there.

Whether I take one of my trad bows or one of the compounds when I go hunting, somebody else using a crossbow has no more effect on my hunt than does a fellow hunter with a Howard Hill longbow.  :)

The crossbow isn't a bow.  But it's not a gun either.  Until people learn to recognize it as an entirely different weapon, this argument of it being a gun or a bow will continue to be kicking a dead horse.  Pro-crossbow people and the crossbow manufacturers won't declare it as an entirely different weapon no matter what we anti-crossbow people say.  If they did, then they wouldn't be able to take advantage of what bowhunters have accomplished and our hard work throughout the years.

People who are pro-crossbow need to fight for an actual crossbow hunting license, fight to establish their own seasons, get their own associations, and fight for their own rights instead of riding the coattails of us bowhunters and the primitive seasons we and our predecessors fought so hard for.

"People who are pro-crossbow need to fight for an actual crossbow hunting license, fight to establish their own seasons"

If the argument in opposition were just about the inclusion of crossbows in the existing archery season your suggestion could be an easy solution. States could just establish a crossbow season, issue a license, and set season dates that run concurrently with existing archery season dates. I doubt such a solution would be more palatable to existing archers in a given state.

That said, I do wish all states with inclusion would issue some type of special identifier to those choosing to utilize a crossbow. This simple change would make it much easier to evaluate impact and  conduct research on their value as a tool in hunter recruitment and retention.

I dunno guys...to me the battle is clearly about more than the crossbow itself. It's ALL about drawing a line and stopping the intrusion of never-ending technology into bowhunting. The crossbow is not the entire problem. It is a symptom of what's happening within bowhunting seasons and philosophies.

You want to allow a crossbow? How can you argue against laser-projection sights? Can a man with no arms and legs call himself a "bowhunter" just because he devises some way to trigger a device through a blow-straw? Are you okay with your longbow next to a 10 year old who sports the (inevitable) technology to make 100 yard kills with his legal (by definition) device? Where and when would YOU draw the line? Maybe you would let technology carry on to its conclusion...which is an oxymoron, because technology never stops trying to change everything that we do.

I said this over on the PBS forums: Money and opportunity were the driving force behind the decisions to allow crossbows in many of our states. Money can bring things in to our seasons, and it can assuredly take them out, too. Is anyone here naive enough to dispute that? When extreme speed, extreme ease, and extreme technology become the accepted norm...how do we know that our ways won't be portrayed as "archaic", "inhumane", "unrealistic" or "irrelevant"? Can we be considered expendable in the name of advancing the futuristic march of technology in bowhunting?

Hell, even golf has more honored traditions than most of bowhunting. Maybe that's because state's governments don't make up the rules for golf.

Well said Mr. Dill.

QuoteOriginally posted by L. E. Carroll:
Cold Weather

Looking at your profile         :eek:        ... I see your a Canadian, not even an American where this legislation is being proposed and pushed in many of OUR states.. You live as I read it in Manitoba... History has proven just how smart Canada and other British influenced countries are when it comes to shooting choices and peoples rights..         :thumbsup:        

Gene Carroll
La Center,
Washington State......"USA"

Gene

in Canada we don't have "gun rights"-owning firearms is considered a privledge.

I own 10 firearms-infact I have Browning Arms sending me a Browning TBOLT VARMINT in 17hmr.  I qualified and earned the firearm when I sold x number of XBOLT at my part time work in an outdoor store.

I hold dual citizenship and have an American passport-that gives me the right to comment on laws/regulations in both Canada and the USA.  ;)  

if it's about "money" as you alledge-then there is demand.

obviously, many out there want to bowhunt with crossbows.

I can understand why:

a father wants to take his sons/daughters bowhunting but feels they aren't confident with compound/trad equipment.

a man wants to take his wife.  I actually met a woman who would bowhunt with an crossbow because she just felt more confident with it.

just a few examples...

QuoteOriginally posted by Breakfast Boy:
The crossbow isn't a bow.  But it's not a gun either.  Until people learn to recognize it as an entirely different weapon, this argument of it being a gun or a bow will continue to be kicking a dead horse.  Pro-crossbow people and the crossbow manufacturers won't declare it as an entirely different weapon no matter what we anti-crossbow people say.  If they did, then they wouldn't be able to take advantage of what bowhunters have accomplished and our hard work throughout the years.

People who are pro-crossbow need to fight for an actual crossbow hunting license, fight to establish their own seasons, get their own associations, and fight for their own rights instead of riding the coattails of us bowhunters and the primitive seasons we and our predecessors fought so hard for.

of course it's a bow.  it's called a crossbow.

legitimate archery equipment.

the archery seasons that exist are not YOUR seasons.  I doubt you fought for any of them.  They belong to the State.

the existing archery seasons are not primitive.  Compound bows with 80% let off/releases/laser rangefinders etc.

just where would this new crossbow season come from?  Should we take from the gun season and the archery season and make a crossbow season?

you and others seem to forget that archery and bowhunting are recreational passtimes.  It's not some sacred religion.  It's subject to change-and it has.

and it will continue.

"the archery seasons that exist are not YOUR seasons. I doubt you fought for any of them. They belong to the State."

I think your lack of true residential citizenship in our United States of America is making itself pretty obvious. You'd know that your passport gives you no additional rights to comment on our laws. Anyone can do that, and a Somalian has just as much rights as you to opinionate. I'm assuming you've not received any secondary or formal schooling on the finer points of American democracy, individual and states' rights. If I'm wrong on that, please accept my apology and enlighten us on your educational background as it pertains to interpretating American law and rights. Growing, living and residing here for a lifetime is just a few shades different from having your papers.

You have my sympathy that your country bestows gun ownership as a "priviledge" only for those it ("it" being your government) deems worthy of having one. I'd like to know how many sportsmen and women in Canada are satisfied with how all that works...especially with handguns for self-defense...

The bowhunting seasons in our individual states are most certainly "ours". "We" are the state. Our people are the state...not the government as may be the case elsewhere. The things that belong to a state belong to her people. That is a sovereign belief and philosophy here. So yes, it's "my" bow season and I have some control over how it's done...through voice and vote.

______________________________________________

"obviously, many out there want to bowhunt with crossbows."

You are 100% correct, and you gave examples. For every example you provide, someone can also show that a lack of understanding and commitment (to bowhunting with hand-drawn & hand-held bows) is behind a large number of crossbow purchases. You can't really legislate against laziness, lack of commitment, poor understanding or questionable ethics. You go for tangible things...like outlawing devices and technology that make killing animals more of a science assignment. The users will despise you of course, but they should scream themselves hoarse.

_______________________________________________

"legitimate archery equipment."

By whose definition? I think you probably meant (or should have) to write "legal" in place of legitimate. It's legal in some areas, but not others. Kudos to those who've beaten the hell out of the dollar-waving special interest groups. I can think of a lot of items that might be called "legitimate archery equipment" by some. You won't see these items in the woods however, because they aren't good for bowhunting and they aren't "legal". I'm guessing TG members can list a couple dozen examples of these items in short order.

Kevin

I worked in the USA for 9 years-paid taxes-and had residency.

I am now considered by the US Government as an American living abroad.

a crossbow is considered archery equipment everywhere.  Perhaps not legal archery equipment-but archery equipment.  Kinda like a 20lb bow is still a BOW although not legal.

I worked as the archery tech for a major outdoor retailer.  I can promise you many who carry compounds and traditional equipment lack committment.

I shot with one girl who refused to use a compound at a 3d-of the 20 targets she hit THREE-and none where kill shots.

that you metion "democracy" is indeed strange, because you seek to prohibit others from engaging in archery in their way-and their way has no impact on your way.  Freedom of choice  and in a recreational activity as well.

interesting enough, a few weeks ago I was talking to a compound bowhunter.  He felt that those who shoot longbows/recurves for hunting should be banned-based on their poor shooting.

now, I totally disagree with him but that's how he felt.

from your above post-it is clear that bowhunting is really not all that tough-because it's all about the shot.

I will remember that next time I bowhunt with my crossbow-and the deer senses movement or discovers me thru scent or noise.

my friend, who is a dedicated longbow archer, missed his deer when he shot at it with his crossbow.  Of course, he enjoys the freedom of choosing equipment as he sees best..

ultmately, what we have here-with a few-is those who self appoint themselves to decide what others use/don't use in a recreational hobby.

and that is not democracy or freedom

I am glad you paid your taxes and take note that you "had" residency. Quite different from being born, raised, educated and a part of America for your entire life. I excuse you for not really understanding that.

Of course a crossbow is considered archery equipment. So is a bow-mounted lasing rangefinder (by some) but it's still illegal to use in most of "our" states. I appreciate you making my point for me.

Freedom of choice does not mean freedom to do anything you want...unless it's anarchy you're defending. All aspects of hunting weapons are controlled by laws in every state. If you don't stay within the laws (which definitely don't allow everyone to shoot whatever they want while hunting) you're a lawbreaker. Using democracy to defend unending freedom to choose is actually rather simplistic. Democracy gives you a voice and a vote. If you get voted down, you lose.

I think you can probably spare us the stories of little girls, fathers with children, handicapped veterans and all the other teary-eyed dogma of what makes crossbows so endearingly special to some folks. PETA has tried the same strategies to make us feel sorry for animals. It's old.

I'm always rather amazed...I have to chuckle...that people can only see this as a "crossbow" issue. It isn't. It's just that the crossbow (for many) is the "line in the sand" that represents excessive ease and technology. The crossbow (and users) are the whipping child of those who would stop endless technology. Of course crossbow users will scream...and loudly. As soon as you say "NO" to anyone, they'll likely behave that way. I'd be disappointed if it didsn't happen. We're not going to agree, so someone loses and will be unhappy.


"ultmately, what we have here-with a few-is those who self appoint themselves to decide what others use/don't use in a recreational hobby."

Well, you're not exactly correct. We fight for what we believe is good and right. We fight for what is ours. Remember "our" bow seasons? We don't get to decide what others use/don't use. We get to have a voice and a vote. Please go back and re-read this paragraph.

Then you may be on your way to grasping what democracy means, and what freedoms it gives us.

I am a lifelong US resident, and have an excellent grasp on how democracy works. :smile:

I also realize that the most modern crossbow is VERY similar in performance to the modern compound bow. They both have pro`s and con`s as they relate to hunting. As a healthy individual, it is my firm belief that a crossbow handicaps me in more hunting situations than it ever would help me.....that is why I choose a compound bow when I feel that my ability with a recurve or longbow falls short of what I need for a specific scenario.

That said, I understand that both the compound and crossbow utilize stored energy in bent limbs transferred to an arrow via synthetic string material, and it is released via a trigger mechanism.

Since the only argument towards crossbows is the one pertaining to hunting, then the anti-crossbow inclusion crowd has legitimate talking points regarding shot process differences between crossbows and compounds. Hunting process is 99% identical. By FAR the biggest advantage a crossbow has over a compound bow if that it does not have to be drawn in the presence of game. Without going into the modern compounds effective letoff`s of up to 99%, lets just say that drawing in the presence of game is a fairly easily learned hunting trait. If this farmboy was able to successfully draw in the presence of more than 200 big game animals......how hard can it be?

As far as who is losing and who is winning.......when we fight with emotion instead of facts, there tends to be hard feelings. That is a loss for both sides. Crossbows will eventually be included in all state archery seasons. Advancing technology can always be legislated out of the hunting field, but as they stand now, there is no legitimate reason to include a compound but exclude a crossbow.

Again, this is from a lifelong US citizen who killed his first whitetail buck with a recurve bow over 37 years ago. A citizen who never wants to use a crossbow, and has never made a single red cent from crossbows.

The sky is not falling, and crossbows are not the devils spawn. They are simply another method to launch an arrow with energy from a set of bent limbs.  :)

Kevin, Thanks for your literacy in expressing points that many of us cannot verbalize properly.
Good job.

QuoteOriginally posted by Kevin Dill:
I said this over on the PBS forums: Money and opportunity were the driving force behind the decisions to allow crossbows in many of our states. Money can bring things in to our seasons, and it can assuredly take them out, too. Is anyone here naive enough to dispute that? When extreme speed, extreme ease, and extreme technology become the accepted norm...how do we know that our ways won't be portrayed as "archaic", "inhumane", "unrealistic" or "irrelevant"? Can we be considered expendable in the name of advancing the futuristic march of technology in bowhunting?

Kevin hit the nail on the head.  Most are missing the underlying, but very real, issue here.  Once the technology lobby has the pen, what's to keep them from writing traditional archery out of bow season?  

They commission a few studies that "prove" how inefficient traditional equipment is in comparison, show some momentum and penetration tables that compare the equipment types, include a few pictures of wounded game and bingo...no more traditional bows in archery season.  The ATA manufacturers don't make squat off us as is and the few that do put out some trad equipment would likely be glad to cut their low volume / low margin trad hunting bow lines and reinvest those dollars in compounds (which have an almost annual purchase cycle now, meaning that compound users buy new bows nearly every year as the technoloy "advances", which means they buy new bows about 100x's more often than we do and are much more brand loyal...ultimately meaning that they mean more in the way of dollars and cents to manufacturers), or they could invest in their new crossbow lines.

It's NOT JUST ABOUT THE CROSSBOW, it's the "next step" in derivating from what bowhunting was meant to be, that it represents, that poses the issue.

First the line was you have to pull and hold it back with your own strength, now the line has been moved to it just has to have "limbs", next will be that "there just has to be something that resembles an arrow involved."  If we don't get involved and try and help mold our state policies than someone that doesn't represent our interest may eventually choose to write us out.  It's really as simple as that.

"Most are missing the underlying, but very real, issue here. Once the technology lobby has the pen, what's to keep them from writing traditional archery out of bow season?"

I'll bet very similar arguments were made by bowhunters when the compound came on the scene. They have been around for years. Their technology becomes more advanced and efficient each year. No one has written our less efficient traditional archery equipment out of bow season. You know what happens if you start crying wolf too often, people quit listening.

Rather than trying to fight with fear, value based rhetoric, and unsubstantiated facts, put you effort into research that directly links crossbows to a decrease in archery participation and archery license sales. Show this in not just one or two, but multiple states, so that the data has statistical significance and indicates a trend.

Use a neutral research firm that is trusted by both State Agencies and the Industry so that you are not accused of biasing the results.

Very few state agencies will knowingly make a change to regulations that have been shown through scientific, sound statistically significant research, to result in decreased hunting participation and reduced license revenue.

K-Dill, you say it well. It is hard to argue with those who do not respect what our forefathers won for us in the 30's, 40's and 50's.

I think that if you do not have history then you cannot understand what we are losing. CW has no concept of what a state that has recently lost it's archery only season to crossbows when the majority of bowhunters in the state oppose them.

When the NABC comprised of some 80+ State and Provencial bowhunting organizations as well as the P&Y, PBS, and Compton Traditional Bowhunters opposes the use of the crossbow in "Archery" hunting seasons. It is obvious that the ATA and the crossbow industry is using $$$ to make it happen at the state level.

Not one state bowhunting organization has asked for the inclusion of the crossbow, not one!! Frankly CW we're tire of the static coming from those inside the industry telling us we need to like it. We don't and won't.

Kevin Dill, keep up the good posts!

Greg

WOW! Fellow long standing bowhunters that disagree with you do not "respect" and cannot "understand" what we are losing?

You are correct on one front.......no state bowhunting org. that I am aware of has asked for crossbow inclusion. I was able to speak to my states president personally before inclusion came to PA and voice my absolute disagreement with the orgs stance. And during the conversation there was no viable factual presentation of of ANY evidence that crossbow inclusion will harm herd health or hunting experience in any way, shape, or form.

That said, I still pay my dues to my state org., and donate additional funds each year. One wrong does not mean you throw the baby out with the bath water.

Also, this $$$$ thing at the state level seems to be a universal talking point. Is there any proof of bribery and/or collusion for us to see?

I am a 70% trad hunter, 30% compound hunter, and hopefully NEVER a crossbow hunter, but crossbows simply are not our enemy. Nor have they caused an issue in any of the rapidly growing number of states that have accepted them.

Ok, let's try this. For thanksgiving we're going to start roasting lambs...Wiat that would screw with a great American tradition. We have fly only areas on prime trout streams yet those traditional "Quality" areas are sacred and set aside from the masses.

Our bowseasons are traditions that were fought for and won through hard work of Archers who wanted a BOWseason, not crossbowmen wanting one. I've seen fit men cheat to get a doctors slip so they could use a crossbow, the excuse was shoulder issues or what ever in reality no need to practice was the bigger reason.

Of course no need for that now as here in Michigan we have them all inclusive now. It was supposed to be a 3 year study that ended up bing one season they're in, basically we were told to shut up it's over.

If you like them Mitch good for you, but I think you already know you are a minority of bowhunters, the VAST majority of us oppose them and that is just a fact of life

I do not "like" them Greg. I have already stated that I have zero intention of ever using one.  :)

I just do not fear them. I have gone out and shot them to see what the big deal is......and there is no big deal. They do not make it magically easier for a physically fit person to hunt successfully with.

If you want to talk about old time traditions, lets just take on the compounds too.  ;)  In terms of ease of use, compounds and crossbows are quite similar. As you well know, compounds and recurves/longbows are light years apart in terms of ease of use.

Of course crossbowmen did not lobby for the seasons we now enjoy.......crossbows were almost unheard of back then.

BTW, the VAST majority of bowhunters do not oppose them. The vast majority of bow hunters polled in the right setting oppose them.

Also, I sure am in the minority. Well under 10% of the US population hunts, and the percentage of US citizens that hunt with traditional archery gear is probably less than 1%.

Lastly, I too know people that have used BS reasons to get a Dr.`s note to use a crossbow. Having broken my back, shattered my left elbow, then later nearly completely severed my left arm at the armpit, I could have gotten that note 24 years ago. I chose to continue with a vertical bow as conditions permitted.

Those folks that used bogus excuses in order to get a crossbow permit.........the weapon does not make the ethics. The person makes his/her own choices.

OK, this really is the last thing.......   :D

If you want to roast a lamb for thanksgiving, I am happy for you brother.   :cool:  We will stick with the turkey here at crossbow headquarters.   :thumbsup:

Just taking a few points from several post...

The crossbow is similar in some ways to a compound bow....and as was stated earlier is not similar in others. The point to be made is while they may be similar, they certainly aren't the same; oherwise these conversations wouldn't be happening all over America. In addition, the crossbow offers more than just not having to draw in the presence of game, it also offers a mechanical load mechanism that no longer depends on the archers natural strength...therefore the development potential is light years ahead of the compound bow. If we all really buy in to this type of argument of things that are similar should be legal to, we probably will have some firearm ethusiast talking about their preferred weapon choice, their close range limitations (pistols?) and their right to the woods after a few more years of technological advancements in the crossbow. String propelled criteria likely will be no more of a barrier to to their wants and expectations.... as the current anti-crossbow position that hand held, hand draw seperates us from crossbow legitamcy. The bottom line is that you can leap frog your weapon choice into eternity if you base your decisions on 'almost the same' rhetoric.

Compound bows were legalize in all states in a 5 year period of time. Crossbows are included in likely still less than half of the states archery seasons....after almost 4 decades of legalization efforts, Again, likely not the same issues at play and to tie them together seems overly simplistic and short sighted.

Crossbows are often described as archery weapons and that fact qualifies them as 'bow' season legal. Uzi's are firearms; yet they are illegal for firearm season use. All weapons have context regardless of the classification.

The crossbow is certainly not the issue per se'; but rather is the first symptom of the rethinking of the value of archery seasons in America. A metamorphisis of traditions, policies, and culture is taking place.

Lastly, state wildlife departments are understanding that the future isn't bright. They understand that revenues are falling and they have to run the departments like a business. In addition to crossbows, they are creating more user fees or whatever to keep people employed and the game management departments open. While the demand for the crossbow in archery seasons seems very low, they are enticed to legalize it to see a few more licenses. Yet, I truly believe that among the actual users of archery season; those that made investments in bows, developed skill sets to shoot them, purchased archery licenses etc...in other words took advantage of a season that was open to everyone; they resent the intrusion. People don't make decisions based on logical facts. They make decisions on how they feel about something and THEN search for the facts that logical concludes to their beliefs. In this manner, bowhunters view themselves closer to 'customers' of wildlife agencies rathers than 'subjects'. They resent change forced upon an archery season that they did not ask for. Hence a 40 years debate on a weapon that continues as a year by year slugfest.

Excellent, excellent post Stringwacker. Thanks.


I will say it this way: There is a battle out there regarding the crossbow. It is just one battle over one technology-driven advancement.

There is a WAR being waged against the continued advancements of technology into bow hunting.

Sure there will be casualties. Guys can't hunt with crossbows in certain states. Others can't use laser-projection devices, electrically-assisted gadgets, certain mechanical broadheads, air-driven projectiles, ad nauseum. Wherever the line is drawn, someone will instantly step up and scream "UNFAIR!"...followed by a dozen descriptions of how un-American and un-democratically they are being treated. "You let them have this!....Why can't we have that?" This happens no matter where you set a limit. You cave and set another limit...same result. The push is unending.

Get out of thinking in the present tense. Decide what you think is best for the future of bowhunting. Go draw the line in your state(s). Draw your own personal line. Don't worry about whose feelings get hurt or who's screaming from behind a fence. Do what you think is right and keep the big picture in mind.

If you happen to blacken someone's eye (proverbially speaking) at least you stood up and did something. Congratulations!

...and one extra thought:

Guys who say there is no appreciable difference between a modern compound and a modern crossbow are intentionally blind. If such were the case, hunters in my home state of Ohio wouldn't be abandoning their compounds in favor of crossbows...which statistics PROVE kill more deer here than compounds and "normal" bows combined.

The similarity argument is a smokescreen.

The fact that the proponents of the crossbow discount the PSE TAC4 Crossbow are denying that the industry will not bridge that gap with a product that will reach the price point needed to sell to the masses.

They also do not bring forth the reality that the Parker auto-cocking crossbow is now available. Keeping in mind that the technology is in its infancy and that the 6-8 second cycle time will be reduced to less than a second sooner than later. The patent for the auto-loading crossbow has been filed and we will see it likely next year at the ATA show.

So if you want to stick your collective heads in the sand and claim the Compound bow, hand drawn and held is just like a crossbow you are blind to the reality we are living in.

They are as different as the selfbow is to a compound with the exception that both are hand drawn and held.

I give PSE a lot of credit for actually demostrating what the TAC 15 is capable of.  In fact, Mr. Pennix actually refers to it as a gun for the first half of the demostration video from the SHOT show.  

Kevin, you are correct.  Crossbow hunters outnumber bowhunter 3-2 during Ohio's "archery" season.  So they do in fact have a dramatic impact on harvest totals.

Greg, very well stated.  Hand held, hand drawn bows.  

If available, through a Modified Archer's Permit, a Draw-Loc device for those physically challenged.  Attached to their own, existing tackle instead of purchasing a new crossbow.  Options are available, but fall on mostly deaf ears.

It took roughly 30 years of full inclusion for Ohio to get to a 3-2 harvest ratio in favor of crossbows.

Due to the method of data collection/tracking Ohio uses, there is no way to tell how different overall harvest rates would be if there were no crossbows permitted. It is a safe bet that many of the crossbow hunters would use compound bows if crossbows were illegal. Data from other states that have included crossbows clearly show us that huge influx`s of new archery hunters just does not happen.

BTW, how is Ohio`s deer herd doing since the crossbows full inclusion in 1978?

As far as the Tac 15, if ANY weapon evolves to the point where it is head and shoulders more effective than its peer`s, state laws can easily regulate it`s use. Some states still have letoff restrictions for compounds.

If you think the PSE is too accurate, go get one, practice up, and when you are ready give me one weeks notice to blow the dust of of a compound bow and warm up. We can go head to head on a Vegas round. You can even get the winner of the crossbow division in Vegas to shoot for you.  :)

I will win......crossbows are just not tack drivers once they come off the sand bags.

Draw loc.......please explain why that would me a morally and ethically better choice?  :)

If there were no crossbows in Ohio, the archery season harvest rate would undoubtedly decline, which simply proves the overall effectiveness and preference for crossbows and additional technology for killing animals. Ohio's deer herd is just fine, but that is not what's at stake and is often just another "smokescreen" non-issue often used to defend the introduction of more technology.  ;)

For years we've heard this stuff:

"You've got 3 million deer in _____ state, so why can't we introduce the auto-cocking, auto-loading, laser rangefinding, multi-reticle, air-assisted crosssomething"? You want to know why not? Because someone is going to stand up and say "No...I won't let you do it without a fight, because I think it will cause long-term damage to the sport". If you disagree and you don't like it....lace up your gloves and get in the fight.  :)

What if we said to them...."If I let you have your little Tac 15, do you promise to be a good boy and not bother me any more? Do you promise to be satisfied"?

Anybody want to predict how that scenario plays out?

Mitch, in our state they do not "regulate" they assimilate. When they allowed them 2 years ago they put a 325fps speed limit on them... Yeah well the CO's didn't want to deal with doing the chrono work, sooo they don't deal with it. Same when they said muzzle loaders had to have an exposed action....right that lasted about 3 years. Move over law Thompson Center needs to sell Contenders in MI too!

What they will likely do is tell bowhunters to share the rest of the 45 days of the former 77 day season with muzzleloaders and shotguns as we do now.

Bow season is hardly bow season anymore in our state.

As far as Ohio, look back 10 years and see how far forward the crossbow has come in that short period of time. When Ohio added them in the high tech rig was a 150lb. Prod Barnett Banshee with pin sights.

Now Mitch as far as your skills with the compound, I would wager a bet you are likely better than 75% of the compound shooters nationally, by your braggadocios remarks. That being said take the average bow-toter and hand them a crossbow and the pendulum swings way in your direction. Add to the argument that you recognize the advantage of resting the crossbow on a bench or rail and you really do have a tack driving machine.

So dumbing it down to the lowest common denominator and the crossbow is a game changer even you should be able to see that.

QuoteOriginally posted by Kevin Dill:
If there were no crossbows in Ohio, the archery season harvest rate would undoubtedly decline, which simply proves the overall effectiveness and preference for crossbows and additional technology for killing animals. Ohio's deer herd is just fine, but that is not what's at stake and is often just another "smokescreen" non-issue often used to defend the introduction of more technology.   ;)  

For years we've heard this stuff:

"You've got 3 million deer in _____ state, so why can't we introduce the auto-cocking, auto-loading, laser rangefinding, multi-reticle, air-assisted crosssomething"? You want to know why not? Because someone is going to stand up and say "No...I won't let you do it without a fight, because I think it will cause long-term damage to the sport". If you disagree and you don't like it....lace up your gloves and get in the fight.   :)  

What if we said to them...."If I let you have your little Tac 15, do you promise to be a good boy and not bother me any more? Do you promise to be satisfied"?

Anybody want to predict how that scenario plays out?

Overall effectiveness and additional technology? The only advantage a crossbow offers a physically fit hunter is no drawing in the presence of game(which is an easily learned skill) and ease of marginal accuracy for a rookie hunter.

In a perfect world I would love to see archery hunters use vertical bows, practice several times a week, and be MUCH more selective in their shot taking. Hunting has become a management tool for wildlife departments. In many states archery hunting simply cannot come remotely close to needed harvest numbers. Would you rather share the hunting woods with a relatively quiet and short range weapon like a crossbow, or have the state wildlife division bring in the bang sticks during "our" season?

Would Ohio harvest rates decline if crossbows were removed from the legal weapons list? My guess is "absolutely". I do not think it would decline a lot though. Most crossbow hunters came from vertical bow hunters, and they would go back to the compound before they would quit hunting.

Just to see the effectiveness of a crossbow, look at the test that Mike Brust of WI conducted using a borrowed Durango.  In a short time frame he was grouping 5 bolts within 4" at 100 yards.  I seriously doubt that anyone can do the same with a borrowed compound, in the same time frame at the same distance.

There is a zero learning curve, not just me saying it, this is coming right from the mouth of Bill Troubridge, owner of Excalibur crossbows.

And then there is this quote from him as well: "The hardest thing about shooting a crossbow is learning how to cock it."  Don't believe me, Goolge TopShot and see him speak those words for yourself.  It doesn't get any plainer than that.  Factor in the auto-cocking Parker Concorde, and even the hardest part is now eliminated.

As far as the Draw-Loc OPTION, it is simply that, an OPTION.  One that the pro-crossbow folks, and certain game agencies do not promote or want physically challenged bowhunters to know about.  It has nothing to do with morals or ethics, unless of course you want to push a product  for profit, without informing the public about the OPTIONS that are available to them. Our own game agency does not even own a Draw-Loc to demonstrate, nor do they promote the Permits available to those with disabilities.  So, the moral code of conduct and ethical performance are not compromised by the bowhunters, rather those in favor of a crossbow, when it comes to promotion.

To purchase and install a Draw-Loc costs bewteen 100-150 dollars, that's a far cry from the cost of a new crossbow don't you think?  No wonder the OPTIONS are not promoted.

:saywhat:  

"Would you rather share the hunting woods with a relatively quiet and short range weapon like a crossbow, or have the state wildlife division bring in the bang sticks during "our" season?"

Considering that archery as a whole cannot manage a state's wildlife, removing the crossbow (highly unlikely once the fox is inside the henhouse) would not send anyone's deer herd into critical mass. Particularly if your point, "Most crossbow hunters came from vertical bow hunters, and they would go back to the compound before they would quit hunting" is accurate.

For me...I'd like to not share the woods with people using a physics experiment for a weapon and finding some obscure reason to attach -bow to the name. I used to think that long range rifle hunters were the confused and emotionless tacticians of the hunting world...but now I'm starting to think of them as better for hunting with than some (excuse the over-qualification) "archery" hunters.

I know the argument is unending. We can point and counter-point everything to the grave. It's really about who's going to put up the best and most effective fight for what they want...and it will involve money. This is usually the point at which I say "Stop talking and start walking".

 ;)

QuoteOriginally posted by Greg PBS:
Mitch, in our state they do not "regulate" they assimilate. When they allowed them 2 years ago they put a 325fps speed limit on them... Yeah well the CO's didn't want to deal with doing the chrono work, sooo they don't deal with it. Same when they said muzzle loaders had to have an exposed action....right that lasted about 3 years. Move over law Thompson Center needs to sell Contenders in MI too!

What they will likely do is tell bowhunters to share the rest of the 45 days of the former 77 day season with muzzleloaders and shotguns as we do now.

Bow season is hardly bow season anymore in our state.

As far as Ohio, look back 10 years and see how far forward the crossbow has come in that short period of time. When Ohio added them in the high tech rig was a 150lb. Prod Barnett Banshee with pin sights.

Now Mitch as far as your skills with the compound, I would wager a bet you are likely better than 75% of the compound shooters nationally, by your braggadocios remarks. That being said take the average bow-toter and hand them a crossbow and the pendulum swings way in your direction. Add to the argument that you recognize the advantage of resting the crossbow on a bench or rail and you really do have a tack driving machine.

So dumbing it down to the lowest common denominator and the crossbow is a game changer even you should be able to see that.

Hopefully I can address most of the points you made Greg. If I miss any it is not on purpose.  :)

I am not familiar with Michigans game management policies, but the 325fps limit that "was" on crossbows seems outdated when you consider that you have compound hunters flinging arrows well over 350fps, an in some cases around 370fps.

As far as sharing parts of the season with firearms, that has happened here in PA too. We have inline seasons and youth rifle seasons mixed in with archery at certain times. Do I like that? Heck no, but one is for hunter recruitment, and the other is for deer management. Bow hunters simply do not kill enough animals to make the division of wildlife happy.

BTW, that old Barnett 150lb crossbow you speak of is less efficient than most 125lb crossbows today. Like compounds, technology marchs on.

Also, Ohio di not include crossbows a short time ago. It has been 33 years since full inclusion, and while crossbows account for more deer annually than compounds, success rates are just about identical.

My remarks about taking on a crossbow is not bragging in any way, just stating that compounds are more accurate in the hands of a skilled archer. Look up the 2011 Vegas results......shooting the same target, at the same distance, 129 compound shooters bested the winning crossbow score. That 129 number was just in one class. Many hundreds of compound shooters in the various classes bested the top crossbow shooter. Strap a compound into a hooter shooter and watch it pummel the Tac 15 off the sandbags.

Yes, you can use a rest sometimes while hunting with a crossbow.....as long as the animal cooperates by walking into the right spot. If making the game easier is an issue, why do we use camo clothing, cover scents, lures, decoys, calls, rattling, food plots, etc., but using a crossbow is too far? Using a compound is insanely easy if one has the mental ability to control themselves when it is game time. Once one has practiced enough to be good, it does not take much practice at all to maintain a fairly high skill level. It is nothing like using a traditional bow.

We are all bow hunters here Greg, and I bet that we would all get along just fine in camp. We just have differing opinions on what the real threats are to our hunting future.

BTW, I met a group of PBS members in Quebec a few years back on a bear hunt. One hunter not in their group showed up with a crossbow. After that hunter left the group leader for the PBS guys declared if he ever saw another crossbow in camp that he would not bring his gang back anymore. He was livid. Last year(spring 2010) guess who showed up with a crossbow? LOL

Granted, age and bad shoulders forced him away from his recurve, but I had to prod him a little bit about his crossbow after showing him the video of my recurve bear kill. :wink:

It is OK if you folks want to think I am related to the devil.  :)  I hunt a lot, and in a lot of places. There is a good chance we may meet in a camp someday, and you will see that I am an OK guy that just does not share your concern over a piece of equipment.   :thumbsup:

Mark:

I was just reviewing the Anti-Crossbow language on the PBS website and I came across this: "There are crossbow bills in Texas, South Carolina, New Jersey, Minnesota, and Illinois."

Please advise your webmaster that there needs to be an update. I can't speak for the other states but there has not been potential crossbow legislation in MN since at least 2008.

Thanks,

JCJ

Mitch what camp was that? who was the former PBS member. You can PM me. I'm just curious and wanting to know the facts as anyone can make a story that works for thier argument..

Greg

Greg, one thing I never do is make up stuff to fit my discussion points.

The gentlemans last name is escaping me right this moment, but I will remember it in short order.

His first name is Ron, he is well into his 70`s, a stocky guy with gray hair, and very active in the Maryland bowhunters.

I forgot to take my memory pills again this morning, so it may be a little bit before I recall his name.   ;)


BTW, I met some other PBS members in the main camp last year as well. I do not recall their names, but they were regulars at that camp, and darn nice guys. On of them killed a MONSTER bear for Quebec just a couple of years ago.....nearly 500lbs.

Mitch,

It's probably worth pointing out that PBS' position on the crossbow is that they (we) are officially on the record as opposing their use and inclusion during the regular archery season(s). No PBS member is ever asked to swear allegiance to this position, or even to support it. If one is a PBS member and against crossbows in archery season...great. If not...that's not a deal-breaker. I'm pretty darned sure there are a lot of NRA, SCI, P&Y, B&C etc members who don't agree with every position of their organization. I'm just as sure that the organizations don't demand that every member walk the "straight and narrow". Example: There are plenty of PBS folks who use firearms for hunting during the year, and during the appropriate seasons. I'm one of them.

The guy you've described sounds like he's guilty of shooting off his mouth perhaps. Hypocrites are nothing new to any organization, as you of course understand. All the above named groups have had their share of embarrassments, and still their good work continues.

Glad you met some good guys in bear camp.   :)

I agree completely Kevin.  :)  And re-reading my comment shows me that it "could" have been taken as a slight against the PBS. Nothing could be further from my mind. I do not think of the gentleman I mentioned as a hypocrite, just a man that is doing what he has to in order to continue hunting.

As far as the other PBS members I met in camp........turns out it is a small world indeed.  ;)

QuoteOriginally posted by Kevin Dill:
I am glad you paid your taxes and take note that you "had" residency. Quite different from being born, raised, educated and a part of America for your entire life. I excuse you for not really understanding that.

Of course a crossbow is considered archery equipment. So is a bow-mounted lasing rangefinder (by some) but it's still illegal to use in most of "our" states. I appreciate you making my point for me.

Freedom of choice does not mean freedom to do anything you want...unless it's anarchy you're defending. All aspects of hunting weapons are controlled by laws in every state. If you don't stay within the laws (which definitely don't allow everyone to shoot whatever they want while hunting) you're a lawbreaker. Using democracy to defend unending freedom to choose is actually rather simplistic. Democracy gives you a voice and a vote. If you get voted down, you lose.

I think you can probably spare us the stories of little girls, fathers with children, handicapped veterans and all the other teary-eyed dogma of what makes crossbows so endearingly special to some folks. PETA has tried the same strategies to make us feel sorry for animals. It's old.

I'm always rather amazed...I have to chuckle...that people can only see this as a "crossbow" issue. It isn't. It's just that the crossbow (for many) is the "line in the sand" that represents excessive ease and technology. The crossbow (and users) are the whipping child of those who would stop endless technology. Of course crossbow users will scream...and loudly. As soon as you say "NO" to anyone, they'll likely behave that way. I'd be disappointed if it didsn't happen. We're not going to agree, so someone loses and will be unhappy.


"ultmately, what we have here-with a few-is those who self appoint themselves to decide what others use/don't use in a recreational hobby."

Well, you're not exactly correct. We fight for what we believe is good and right. We fight for what is ours. Remember "our" bow seasons? We don't get to decide what others use/don't use. We get to have a voice and a vote. Please go back and re-read this paragraph.

Then you may be on your way to grasping what democracy means, and what freedoms it gives us.

Kevin

you might want to educate some of the members on this forum.

they actually believe a crossbow isn't a type of bow and that because it's called a CROSSBOW-it isn't a bow.  Hmmm..longbows are called are bows too.  ;)  

I use a laser rangefinder with my compound bow and also my crossbow.

bow seasons are not my season-or anyone's season.  They belong to the state or province.

excessive ease with a crossbow?  you mean the crossbow allows it to be easy to bowhunt?  I actually shoot better with my compounds than my crossbow.

again, you seem to not realize we are talking about a recreational sport here.  Just because something is hard or even not hard does not entitle one to participate in it.

I really don't see this is a THEM (crossbow users) and US (traditional bowhunters etc.)  Many traditional bowhunters will also use the crossbow as they shoot compounds right now.

having choice, or more choice creates opportunity for everyone.

Kevin

you mentioned about standing up for what is right.

I know a guy who hunts with a compound who feels that trad bowhunters have no business in the woods hunting because their shooting is so poor and that their bows are ineffective.

he believes they should be outright banned.

while I don't share that view-I think we can agree if an archery accuracy test to qualify for bowhunting of say..9" plate at 20yards..it would disqualify a number of trad bowhunters.

I really don't understand why you make issue with myself being an American or even not.  It is regardless of the discussion.

and, no I wouldn't agree with you if I was educated in the USA-born in the USA-lived in the USA.

Hi CW,

"bow seasons are not my season-or anyone's season. They belong to the state or province."

Again, I'm sorry for your confusion and powerlessness. Maybe you should have lived longer in the USA and taken some ownership.

_________________________________________________


"Many traditional bowhunters will also use the crossbow as they shoot compounds right now."

Why not take an impartial poll and find out how many "many" is? Do it right here on TG. We'll all watch the results.

________________________________________________


"I think we can agree if an archery accuracy test to qualify for bowhunting of say..9" plate at 20yards..it would disqualify a number of trad bowhunters."

Using your logic, the only qualification to have a driver's license would be "the ability to drive a car down a road". There's just a little bit more to it than that.

I think I can agree that if accuracy was the only criteria for being a qualified hunter (bow or firearm) a significant percentage of hunters would never make it to the woods. Now, if we based qualification to hunt on things like knowledge and understanding of ALL aspects of taking an animal's life, an entirely different group of people would be disqualified. I'm thinking the "instant archery hunter" wouldn't cut the mustard.

It is the "instant accuracy = instant success" mindset that puts crossbows and other technology on the front of retail shelves. There happens to be many who believe that just because you "can" shoot a projectile into an animal doesn't mean you "should". That's why some states have mandatory hunter education. Incidentally, it wasn't the governments that wanted hunter education...it was pushed by hunters (responsible ones) who were heard and had their way. They changed "their" laws and "their seasons.
 ________________________________________________


"I really don't understand why you make issue with myself being an American or even not. It is regardless of the discussion."

I seem to recall that you weighed in on an issue that pertains to how the PBS interacts with state organizations regarding crossbow initiatives. I don't mind that you have an opinion on that. I'm pretty certain that you have a distorted outlook (not sure where that originates) on who owns what, and who comprises the State here in the United States. I don't advise you to apply your interpretation of things you "think" you understand, and then presume to lecture the American members of this site with statements like, "bow seasons are not my season-or anyone's season. They belong to the state or province." That kind of behavior will not endear you to the country that you used to temporarily reside in. I do understand where your confusion comes from, but can't do a darned thing to help you there.
 ;)  


________________________________________________


"and, no I wouldn't agree with you if I was educated in the USA-born in the USA-lived in the USA."

Of course you wouldn't. I wouldn't have it any other way, either. We'd disagree and I would use whatever influence I had to defeat a technology-driven agenda. That's how democracy works here. You don't get a free crossbow pass just because you think you're entitled. Sorry if that hurts.

________________________________________________

"Kevin

you might want to educate some of the members on this forum."

Not a chance Skippy. I happen to believe they are all very capable of understanding the issues. A few hundred members are reading this thread every day. If you'd like to talk down to them, and presume to "educate" them, I invite you to do just that. We're waiting....

wow. nicely stated, Kevin.   :thumbsup:

Jamie...you're every bit the wise communicator. Always like hearing your viewpoints!


CW...appreciate yours too.   :)  

"they actually believe a crossbow isn't a type of bow and that because it's called a CROSSBOW-it isn't a bow. Hmmm..longbows are called are bows too."

What's in a name? A peanut isn't a nut. A pronghorn antelope isn't an antelope. Government Intelligence is an oxymoron to some. Crossbows can just as easily be accurately named Stringguns. The name is relatively unimportant. As said before...Take any piece of technology and add "-bow" to the end of the name, and many will automatically think it qualifies for bow hunting. That is relatively short-sighted and self-serving. The manufacturers and market place depend on automatic inclusion and acceptance. The sheep will always want new grass.

_______________________________________________


"having choice, or more choice creates opportunity for everyone."

Not so. That is simply liberalist thinking and dogma with no controls applied. It borders on simple propaganda. Some folks think they should have the right ("choice") to do whatever it is that pleases them, and any effort to control or moderate that is somehow just unfair. "Communist Dictatorship"!! How can more choice be bad? I really think you are smart enough to sit down and list 50 different scenarios in which "choice" for everyone would result in chaos.

Maybe this comes down to a conservative vs liberal perspective (on hunting regs). I have no problem with that characterization. I'm conservative in my views on hunting and what's best for it in the long term. If that means the occasional battle fought, just as fine. Bruises heal. Democracy works for me. Slowing down...retarding...affecting...damaging the inclusion of unrestricted technology into my bowhunting seasons is a worthy goal.

I always liked this passage written by Jay McAninch... "while the subject of disagreements always fades, the manner in which we treat each other when we don't agree lingers and says volumes about our character."

QuoteOriginally posted by JCJ:
I always liked this passage written by Jay McAninch... "while the subject of disagreements always fades, the manner in which we treat each other when we don't agree lingers and says volumes about our character."

I can clearly recall many a venomous discussion back when the evil compound bow started to make serious inroads within the bow hunting community.

They were every bit as much a product of the devil as crossbows are today.    ;)

No weapon by itself is inherently bad. It takes the misuser to create that situation. Crossbow users have used the argument for decades that "2 bent limbs and arrow makes it a bow" (ignore the gunstock, the trigger, the scoped gunsights, the safety, etc). If that holds water, how will they feel when someone creates the hybrid gunbow that uses compressed air or perhaps gunpowder to assist the "2 bent limbs and an arrow"? Is there a point where the existence of "2 bent limbs and an arrow" in combination with whatever technological triumphs we invent, is no longer a suitable archery hunting weapon?

The entire point now is that people disagree on how the future should look. It's not just about talking or convincing. It's about winning and defeating...if possible...that which you disagree with. That is how we do things here, like it or not. No apology needed. Better get your gloves on, or get out of the way.

;)

I am tired too of hearing this quote: "A gun goes bang and a bow goes twang."  And Kevin, there already is a hybrid, if you want to call it that.  The Airrow is a barrel that you attach to you Ruger .22 caliber rifle.  It shoots arrows from the rifle barrel.  The future is here and now, so besides having to prepare to fight more advances on the crossbow, you also have to watch out for the arrow shooting firearm.  
The repeating crossbow can't be too far off, especially now that you have an auto-cocking one from Parker.  
The TenPoint models can also be cocked with either a cordless drill or cordless screwdriver.  Yeah, this is archery tackle!

How big an organization is PBS in terms of number of members?

Cold Weather,

Your argument is the "big tent theory" reprised- it's been around for years.

That same arguement was used in a very different sphere of life by Europeans at the beginning WW II- at that time it was called Appeasement.

"we'll give them Poland and Holland and they won't come after us in England or France" That didn't work very well, as we know from our not as yet altered history books.

If you shoot your compound bow better than you do your crossbow, then what rational argument do you use to allow yourself to hunt with a crossbow?

If you are a person of character and have compassion for the creatures you hunt as I am certain you do it would seem selecting the weapon one has the greater confidence in would be the right choice.

After all, in your world both are equivilant because as you say, they're both bows- so you have the option to select one or the other based on what I hope is your primary criteria- how effective are you with it?

You instead go counter to that and are electing to hunt with the "bow" you shoot more poorly than the compound?

I'm discounting your argument in favor of the crossbow as tainted by your profession- and am making the logical assumption that since you work in the hunting business -pushing crossbows is "GOOD" for your business and therefore, like the rest of the crossbow's proponents I have interacted with you have something monetary to gain by its introduction and expansion into archery seasons. I'm also guessing that since you were born in 1960 you missed all the hard work bow hunters had to do to even have an archery season while you were hunting with firearms and such.  

And since you are a multi-weapon hunter you don't really care whether archery season is curtailed as the result of these actions because you'll just move on to some other weapon.

JCJ- I believe there are less than 500 members in PBS....I could be off a little

Kevin,

You are the man!! Great, great posts!!

CW,

Technology will ruin bowhunting. The kids of these days think whats out there now Is the norm. That's sad and It's not the kids or the beginners fault. Tradition In bowhunting has been on It's way out since technology flooded the compound market. It's now hitting the xgun market. You haven't seen nothing yet. You give someone an Inch and they'll take a mile. Just look at the compound manufacturers.

QuoteOriginally posted by Schultzy:
You give someone an Inch and they'll take a mile.

Exactly right. Our children try to do this because they are...well...children. Setting limits and enforcing them is a good thing, no matter how badly the "I want it all!" crowd responds. There is no end to the taking...ever. You control that by NOT giving. You also ignore the cries, screams and protestations of the sheep.

They don't like fences.

Momma says "Crossbows are the Devil!"

You guys are hilarious!!!

Crossbows ARE archery equipment, they are just another step in the evolutionary chain of the bow. Just like the firearm has transformed from the musket to the high powered sniper rifles used by todays military.

Hell, I don't care what a person shoots, with less people hunting all the time there are more than enough animals to go around.

Drink a beer, sing kumbaya, group hug or something.

This is America for pete's sake and variety is the spice of life. We fight for the freedom to choose. If you don't like what someone hunts with, don't hunt with them or set your own rules on your land. Other than that, JUST GO HUNT!

Tim I don't think anyone is trying to stop people from hunting with a crossbow, but the advantages that the crossbow offers should preclude its use in archery only seasons.

Really, it isn't just about the crossbow, and when we get into conversations and discussions like this one emotions run high, and it makes it hard to get out some of the needed points.  Kevin, you have done a great job in your post, thank you.

Its not to far back that one has to go, maybe further for some, but I remember times when a guy could pull into his yard with a deer, and folks that knew him would come over to hear the story, and really marvel at the fact that this guy took this animal with such a simple hunting tool, a stick and string, and even in the early days of compounds, there was still a lot of that "awe" and respect, those days were limited or no sights, and a guy had to still get close, well inside the animals comfort range, draw the bow back and make the shot, doing all of this at the risk of being detected and having nothing to show for his efforts.
it is for this reason that decision makers, and public perspective has always been in agreement that bowhunters should have and can enjoy longer seasons.  The amount of hours that we put in per animal harvest compared to gun hunting is/was vastly different.
Now lets fast forward to a time in the not so distant past, technology; treestands, range finders, trail cameras, lighted-light enhanced pins, electronics, the perception that we can shoot further, all these things in one extent or another has changed the public's view and the understanding of game managers that bowhunting is not really as hard as it once was, and that bowhunters no longer need the longer seasons.  This coupled with other attitudes, as the I want it now, with no work involved, money,  greed, etc. has the power to change what bowhunting was into something that, is well quite unacceptable to those of us that remember the "Good Old Days" .  
There was a time when bowhunters who were successful, owned every part of that opportunity called bowhunting, and the ones that weren't knew they had things to learn, hence mentoring became one of the greatest things about bowhunting.  Today, the majority of people that call themselves bowhunters, own very little of the opportunity, they have traded things like woodsmanship skills for trail cameras, and scent sealing clothes, the ability to judge distance for a piece of electronics, the list goes on.  
The point to this though is, it isn't just the crossbow, or technology, its retaining ownership of something that is a very important part of many of our lives, it's realizing that as many in our ranks surrender that ownership, we will soon loose the chance to have this in our lives as something that is a part of us.  It's about heritage, traditions, two things that I am willing to fight for.

Cold Weather,
Not meaning to poke at you, and am not trying to get in a peeing contest with you, but I find it hard to believe that you can say you have met Glenn St. Charles, and have such little respect for the things that he and many others fought so hard to preserve and protect.

I think the big point is where do we draw the line? When does new technology and new equipment take away the fair chase aspect? Yeah it's evolution but when is it too much? Newer,better,faster,stronger they may be good in everything else but to me hunting is about personal challenge. The rewards are proportional to the effort involved. And like Farr West Leather said when do we effectivly shoot ourselves in the foot with the non-hunting public? When will they go "wow look at all this stuff they use. They don't need an extra season". Just my rambling thoughts......