With the PA/TX and NRA/Nugent actions of late, we knew the crossbow issue would be coming to NE as our state's DNR is just becoming more and more a prostitute to money and completely disregarding biology, tradition, and public opinion. And respect for the resource is going out the window as well.
I'm now VP of the Nebr Bowh Assn and we saw this issue coming and the Nebr Game and Parks Commission told us this spring/summer the issue would be addressed in 2011 as kind of heads up, but that we didn't need to be worried. We told them we'd do a survey of members and get them some information, etc. Then this past October, they pulled a sleight of hand, got it on the fast-track agenda. We tried to react, had lots of great testimony, etc., but the Commissioners already had their minds made up, called bowhunters selfish (they get this directly from the NGPC which has little or no higher-ups with any passion or love for bowhunting), and passed it 6-3.
Phone calls to Commissioners often resulted in us getting our butts chewed instead of them listening to input from constituents. Of course, that's part of the problem. They are beyond our reach as they are appointed positions by the Governor, usually political party big-wigs and power players. I don't really know the roots of the old phrase "something's rotten in Denmark" but it applies to Lincoln, Nebraska.
Get this, the impetus for the change? Apparently one guy couldn't get a crossbow allowance for handicapped, complained to his state senator, who complained to NGPC and a commissioner, and voila...
Right now our NGPC is running scared of our Unicameral (one-house legislature), which is micro-managing everything. And the NGPC reacts this way on lots of stuff to a few complaints even though in this case they have a 1000-member organization vocally opposed and committed against crossbows in archery season. An organization which has supported the NGPC financially on many projects, and basically ramrods the bowhunter education program here, not to mention helps in a huge way with Archery in the Schools and mentored hunts, and....
We were flat out misled and lied to. If I pulled this kind of crap at my public job, I'd likely be fired and probably should be. These guys just keep on keeping on. We have a board meeting in a week or so and it will be interesting to see where we go from here. We may have reached a point where we publicly denounce the NGPC and pull our support on everything until there are changes. But just wanted to share this absolutely rotten news with you. Sorry guys. Wish I could say we held the line, but the cards were stacked against us (kind of like the refereeing in the Texas A&M and Nebraska football game; but that's another topic!).
Reading some other related topics on this site, our organization's opposition to the crossbow is largely based on this. There is NO grass-roots groundswell of support from people in NE wanting the crossbow; mostly just a handful of opportunists who covet the early/long bowhunting season but are not willing (or able) to learn to shoot a bow. They claim to be left out, when in reality, bow seasons have ALWAYS been open to anyone wanting to actually learn a new skill and work at it. That's the problem, these are gunners who want the early and late season but can't or refuse to learn a new skill.
Interesting enough, I was once the same. I was 19 years old, wanted something to do while waiting for waterfowl season to open up, and thought rifle season was a little crazy/short and the rifle itself was a little too easy. I wanted more time to hunt, so guess what I did: I learned to shoot a bow and arrow. And instantly was admitted to the game. The problem is now that opportunists in all areas of life want the bar lowered for them, and this is no different.
Oh, and we can't forget the people who stand to make a buck off our bowhunting by twisting it to suit their pocketbook. I believe BOWhunters should define what bowhunting equipment should look like. Not politicos, or whiners. And here's the kicker: what two segments of hunting are HEALTHY right now? Bowhunting and Turkey hunting. So why they want to mess with a good thing, I'll never understand.
And the way the NGPC pulled this off was absolutely dishonest.
Unfortunately with shrinking hunter numbers and tag fees that are at about maximum tolerable limits state game agencies across the country are scrambling for a way to boost revenue. Combine that with significant pressure from manufacturers organizations and sportsmen who currently do not wish to learn to use the equipment but want to take advantage of the generous season afforded bowhunters and its all but a slam dunk to be enacted. Fact is probably more than half of the hunter friendly organizations out there were probably in support of the "expanded opportunities" that this offers sportsmen.
Its easy to make this look attractive to legislative sorts with no real stock in the issue. New people participating in the hunt, more license sales, additional revenue from the taxes collected on all the new gear. There were probably many many sportsmen and women that were in favor of this as well, as you stated its an easy transition from gun to x-bow.
Im not in support of inclucing x-bows in the archery season, no more than I would support full draw devices on compounds but Im probably in the minority. Trad hunters choose to do what 99% of hunters would never even consider... We choose to handicap ourselves by our gear choices. Although honestly I never feel handicapped most other people are looking for some gimmic that will make them a better hunter and by better hunter I mean help them score more often. They want more range (more range = more shot opportunities) more speed (flatter trajectory eliminates the need to judge distance) and so on.
It would be nice to think this is just a new craze that will pass in time but I doubt that very much and as each new state subscribes to this idea it makes it all that much easier for other states to fall in line and claim it is the new "norm". Personally I would rather see states legalize them for everyone but rather than including them in the archery season put them where they should be, in the firearms season.
The guys in Ohio just love their crossbow season and can't understand why you would complain. Their hunters are ethical and you can't argue about their success in growing big bucks! You would find more support however from the Michigan Traditional archery clan, however, it wouldn't be worth much, we had the crossbows backdoored on us this year. Money, politics, easy, etc. Plus how do you turn down charismatic reps like Ted Nugent?
Notice too the crossbow people are taking away and replacing common terminology that distinguishes it from a bow. Now they're saying "arrow" instead of "bolt"! .....Phil
That's the pattern in EVERY state. Politicians are 'whores' - whores for power, whores for money, whores for influence.
They pat one another on the back, watch out for each other, include each other in scummy deals to get more of those at every opportunity.
I've met very few I'd say were 'statesmen'.
The only thing they care about is staying on teh gravy train.
You're getting crossbows, my man...count on it.
In the end, when the people who think its a shortcut find out its not, you'll see tons of them in the pawn shops across your state... until then, watch your back when going in and out of the woods.
I feel your pain, Oklahoma passed the Crossbow legislation in an emergency session this summer....two representatives is all it took to change Oklahoma's bowseason for ever. I made phone call after phone call to legislature as well as did everyone I could convince to do the same, no avail. We have an Oklahoma Bowhunting Council that stood by silent and did NOTHING to prevent this (the president has a bowshop that sales crossbows...hmmmm). BIG BIG Crossbow sales for the BPS in OKC though.
One more little caveat....people said "crossbows won't make any difference" Well oklahoma had the second annual Bear season, 20 bear quota, everyone has to call in at the end of the day to see how many are left for day two, started Friday Oct. 1st...
Remember 20 bear quota,
33 bears were killed on Friday Oct. 1st closing down the season, 22 were killed with Crossbows.
Last year they killed 19 bears and it went into Black Powder season....
You had to buy a 100 dollar tag before Oct. 1 to hunt bears...how many guys do you think had to work Friday and ended up eating $100 tag? How many bears were poached by people who worked bait sites all summer and didn't get to hunt Friday? I don't know but that right there is an illustration of how "effective" crossbows are.
Makes me sick.
Sorry that I offended some people with the facts the last time I posted on this issue. Toehead, how would you feel if 22 of the 33 bears had been taken with traditional gear and the crossbow hunters were calling for an end to your season? Would you feel that we should limit how many people could use trad gear then? Maybe this was just a good year for bear? I would be very upset too if I had to eat a $100 tag. I just don't understand why people get so torn up over what someone else hunts with. Is it because they kill too many animals? If so you're only supporting their argument of their effectiveness. Is it because you think all crossbow hunters are lazy slobs? A slob is a slob no matter what weapon you give them. Maybe they don't have enough time to practice with a stickbow. In that case you should commend them for using a weapon that they are proficient with, not condem them. I'm not trying to make anyone mad and Owlbait, I apologize for ruffling your feathers last time, but everyone needs to look at the reality of the situation and realise that there is no way to win this fight. It , like everything else is all about the money and every argument you try to make will be turned against you and could in reality have stickbows banned from bowseason. We're only pennies in a billion dollar industry and no one likes it when you reach in their purse.
Its not archery period....fact
No ruffled feathers here, just like to poke at ya! I'm hurt here in Michigan that my beloved Archery season has been sold away. I think crossbows had a place in Michigan but their money bought them a place during my season. I think they have hurt the Archery (Modern) industry in Michigan but the retalers won't realize for a couple more years, and I do not think they recruit more youth to hunting. But, time will tell. Hopefully, they don't disarm Traditional Archery in the process.
QuoteOriginally posted by toehead:
Its not archery period....fact
Just to clarify, I don't disagree, but I'm afraid that we're in a situation where we may be a little better off to just set back and ride along so as not to lobby ourselves out of existense. Remember, when archery season originally began gun hunters didn't want us in their season either and some of their same arguments may come back to haunt us, trad bowhunters, specifically.
I think if we sit idely by and "ride along" then there will be no stop to the elimination of archery only seasons...where do we draw the line? arrow guns? tranquilizer guns like the WHA?
Cross bows are weapons of war..... It's not archery.....
Even if they made crossbows legal to use during the archery portion of deer season here in Missouri, I still wouldn't use one. I hate them, they are heavy, noisy, cumbersome to carry around, and just a general pain in the arse. My dad uses one, but he's disabled and I can tell you for sure that he won't hurt the deer population with his limited mobility. He's killed one doe in 3 years with it.
To me that's what the crossbow was meant to be for.......disabled people who always did hunt the archery season with normal tackle, but have lost the ability to draw a bow anymore and still wish to keep their spirits alive by means of crossbow.
For anybody else of able mind and body it's a cop out pure and simple. It's an easy fix for somebody who doesn't care about the sport of archery, but simply wants to kill more animals.......that's greed. Just as well too because that's what fuels the politicians to go forth with such changes.....greed. If there wasn't something in it for them they wouldn't even bother.
It's sad to say the least and I'm surprized that my own home state hasn't done the same thing, because as Bryce and Ray have already stated, I think my state conservation department is also headed down the road of prostitution to gain tax and permit dollars. I hate to even make that assumption, but the signs are all there.
When tradition, skill, woodsmanship, and excellence take a back seat to questionable ethics in sound game management, and the almighty dollar it's a sad state of affairs. To say the least.....it just makes me sick to my stomach to see it happen. Thus that is the world in which we live.
QuoteOriginally posted by SEMO_HUNTER:
Even if they made crossbows legal to use during the archery portion of deer season here in Missouri, I still wouldn't use one. I hate them, they are heavy, noisy, cumbersome to carry around, and just a general pain in the arse. My dad uses one, but he's disabled and I can tell you for sure that he won't hurt the deer population with his limited mobility. He's killed one doe in 3 years with it.
To me that's what the crossbow was meant to be for.......disabled people who always did hunt the archery season with normal tackle, but have lost the ability to draw a bow anymore and still wish to keep their spirits alive by means of crossbow.
For anybody else of able mind and body it's a cop out pure and simple. It's an easy fix for somebody who doesn't care about the sport of archery, but simply wants to kill more animals.......that's greed. Just as well too because that's what fuels the politicians to go forth with such changes.....greed. If there wasn't something in it for them they wouldn't even bother.
It's sad to say the least and I'm surprized that my own home state hasn't done the same thing, because as Bryce and Ray have already stated, I think my state conservation department is also headed down the road of prostitution to gain tax and permit dollars. I hate to even make that assumption, but the signs are all there.
When tradition, skill, woodsmanship, and excellence take a back seat to questionable ethics in sound game management, and the almighty dollar it's a sad state of affairs. To say the least.....it just makes me sick to my stomach to see it happen. Thus that is the world in which we live.
This is really how I feel about it. I am in the same situation, I defend the issue because my father is one who uses a crossbow because he is unable to bow hunt now. The crossbow has been legal in Ohio for longer than I can remember and it hasn't brought the foretold gloom and doom that everyone thinks it will. I know it doesn't make it any easier to swallow.
And on top of all that, your conservation department is probably like OURS- they're the whipping boys of the state assembly.
Every year their budget gets smaller and smaller- and there's more work for them to do with less people and less funding.
They're looking for any way to increase their budgets and license fees are the best way for them.
Example- There are mountain lions in GA- they've got some kills and videos and trail cam pics that are indisputably lions- but they cannot admit they're here or by law they have to manage them.
That would mean MORE money has to be used for something they can't afford- and something else gets defunded- like stopping people from drinking and driving boats on our waterways or leasing public hunting grounds or you name it.
Every year politicians fritter away millions in every jurisdiction on the stupidest things- bridges to nowhere- money to a college to study why pig poop smells so bad- a museum of cow flops in the shape of our Presidents' heads- it's all good, right??
These guys need trucks to drive, money to put gas in them....the government is taking it away from them year after year- they're scrambling to find ways to keep their jobs, keep us safe in the woods and waters, and I don't blame them for what's happening either.
Those of you who have mentioned the legislators role in this are right. In Nebraska, we've got legislators who hear one complaint from one landowner (voter) and they fall all over themselves trying to introduce legislation that in my mind usurps the professionals in wildlife biology.
Unfortunately, those professional policy makers in Game and Parks have not been acting very professionally in this state for a number of years, undermining their own biologists and disrespecting the resources while turning their backs on their constituent/user groups while doing anything for the almighty dollar and trying to appease the over-reaching state legislature. It's quite a cluster we've got going on right now. And they've been making so many changes the last 10 years--all the while they've been keeping minimal stats. Thus they don't have any evidence of what changes work/don't work, or even any kind of statistics to really build useful data to begin with. I'm just sick about the whole thing, and the future of our Game and Parks.
I really feel your pain. Our Game commission here in New Mexico is also appointed by the governor. They are the most corrupt group of SOB's I know of. Getting a license to hunt elk or deer in this state is akin to winning the lotto. We have not had the crossbow issue hit our state yet, but I am sure a little lobbying from some of our more wealthy outfitters will get it passed in no time.
Hey WaryBuck, ya its a shameful situation here in Nebraska is right! I agree, how long before the Neb Bowhunters and every other orgs quit supporting NGPC for kicking us bowhunters in the butt every time someone whines about seasons! Big money-Outfitters out west here are having a big impact on their decision making. Tonite (dec-8) there is a meeting with commish J.Burke at curtis,Ne. Question and answer! May be Interesting- I'll let you all know!
In Ohio, even though crossbows are permitted, I have yet to see one being carried by an adult for 5 plus years. I know they are out there being used but the numbers compared to compound bow users are very slim. I do know of a couple youngsters less than 12 years old that use them due to the fact that they lack the skill/ability to shoot a bow over the states 40 lb minimum. My father of 70 plus years old even mentioned to me one time that he thought he may enjoy sitting in a ground blind with a crossbow someday so he can continue to be in the outdoors. I know that the crossbow will add another dimension to your archery season but it will probably have very little of an impact. The serious bowhunters aren't going to switch from their current equipment to a crossbow nor will one who strives to have the most lethal/accurate archery weapon going to be using a crossbow. From what I have seen, at least in my area, the crossbows are used by those who want to enjoy the bow hunting experience maybe for a very few days of the season. They typically are not too serious about bowhunting, hence using a crossbow, and do not spend too much time preparing/scouting/tree stand hanging, etc. to be a very sucessful cross-bowhunter. The people I have known to have used them, either don't use them anymore by switching to compound/traditional equipment or dont even hunt the archery season anymore.
Well I went to the NGPC "wildlife management" meeting in Curtis, Ne. last nite and basically the Warden, Biologist, and Commisioner present told us that the crossbow issue is a done deal and we are to live with it. I was rather suprised to find that several of the "aging" bowhunters in the crowd actually showed great support for crossbows, whom I know wouldn't have a few years ago. It seems that with the advent of instant gratification in this world anyone drawn into the scheme of things will change his mind if they feel their not getting their piece of the pie! I'm sure with the continued pressure from big money and outfitters in the state drawing incomes from our state deer herd that many more will be swayed to believe that they need an instant piece of pie and their values and morals will change with time. We continue to find out that the true meaning of the hunt slips away for more every day as they buy into the techno hunting worlds view and of outrageous videoing of crazy fist pumping idiots competing for the most "bone". The legislators shoved this down our throats even though its a process thats supposed to take several months to get through the signing into law process, it seems that the only shot at slowing this down is a massive mailing campaign to the Governor to not sign it into law ??
Crossbow hunters in Ohio make up 60% of the "archery" users, where others(compound, trad, selfbows) make up the other 40%. The harvest totals are reflected in those numbers as well, with crossbow hunters killing deer by the same margin. So with crossbow introduction into the archery seasons, crossbows do indeed have an effect on harvest totals and participants using one. There is a crossover ratio with an average of 37% of firearms hunters using a crossbow during the archery seasons in Ohio and Arkansas. So again, the crossbow does indeed have an impact on archery seasons.
Legislators need to realize that you are not limiting people as to how to hunt, there are options available for those who wish to put in the time and effort into using them. What State game agencies see is nothing more than moeny for their coffers. Squandered money needs to be replaced. With a new license, they get it, and they also get more money from Pittman-Robinson excise taxes. They prostituted themselves to the crossbow manufacturers because they are incapable of running a game agency.
What should be done is to have easier land access and really concentrate on a viable, realistic approach to managing the deer herd.
QuoteOriginally posted by Buckeye Trad Hunter:
Sorry that I offended some people with the facts the last time I posted on this issue. Toehead, how would you feel if 22 of the 33 bears had been taken with traditional gear and the crossbow hunters were calling for an end to your season? Would you feel that we should limit how many people could use trad gear then? Maybe this was just a good year for bear? I would be very upset too if I had to eat a $100 tag. I just don't understand why people get so torn up over what someone else hunts with. Is it because they kill too many animals? If so you're only supporting their argument of their effectiveness. Is it because you think all crossbow hunters are lazy slobs? A slob is a slob no matter what weapon you give them. Maybe they don't have enough time to practice with a stickbow. In that case you should commend them for using a weapon that they are proficient with, not condem them. I'm not trying to make anyone mad and Owlbait, I apologize for ruffling your feathers last time, but everyone needs to look at the reality of the situation and realise that there is no way to win this fight. It , like everything else is all about the money and every argument you try to make will be turned against you and could in reality have stickbows banned from bowseason. We're only pennies in a billion dollar industry and no one likes it when you reach in their purse.
I agree totally,..... If someone wants to hunt with an X-Bow more power to them...I would rather people hunt with what they can shoot well with, then wound a bunch of deer with something they can't use.
I don't think everyone has the discipline to hunt with a traditional bow. It takes a bunch of practice and time. Most people now days don't have that time.
I support all hunters, I feel that is the way it should be.
Al Dente wrote:
"There is a crossover ratio with an average of 37% of firearms hunters using a crossbow during the archery seasons in Ohio and Arkansas."
Al: Where is this data available? I can't find it in the Tonkovich & Cartwright study titled Evaluation of Crossbows for deer hunting in Ohio and Arkansas.
Thanks,
Jay
Al Dente: Where did your data come from? I will try to check with state ODNR office tomorrow to see how their info compares. Every deer tagged in is logged in as killed by a longbow, crossbow, gun or muzzeloader. I heard the numbers once but remembered the longbow (which includes compounds & recurves) was second to the gun. I would have guessed crossbow kills would account for less than 5% of the total deer.
I just confimed from the ODNR website that in 2009 there were 49,000 deer were killed with crossbows and 42,000 killed with longbows. Al Dente's numbers are accurate. Locally there are very few crossbow hunters but I would guess the numbers rise drastically the closer you get to urban areas. Those numbers seem outrageous. The crossbow doesnt affect my hunting scenario but with kill numbers like that I'm sure they may have a large effect in the areas where they are used in larger numbers.
Last year Mike Tonkovich of the OH DNR indicated that OH vertical bow (compound, recurve, longbow) archers had record harvests 11 of the last 11 years and OH crossbow users had record harvests 10 of the last 11 years. There doesn't seem like much negative impact at least in "traditional" bowhunters annual harvest as a result of the crossbow.
Actually, Al Dente's numbers may be accurate...but not supported by the harvest totals, if 684Kevin's harvest totals are accurate. They would total 91,000 harvested...and longbow hunters, which make up 40% of the archery hunters, would have taken a disproportionate 46% of the kill.....
The data was from the original Tonkovitch study from Ohio and Arkansas. In one state the crossover ratio was 35% and the other was 39%, for an average of 37%.
Al Dente.....unfortunately, your math is flawed again. You can not average averages....real math simply does not work that way. In order for you to be accurate, you'd need the totals that those percentages were based on. By the way...do you know of anywhere I could obtain a copy of that report? I've searched the web and have only been able to find references to it.
"The data was from the original Tonkovitch study from Ohio and Arkansas. In one state the crossover ratio was 35% and the other was 39%, for an average of 37%."
Al:
The original study was by Tonkovich and Cartwright study cited in my message above. I re-read it again today and nowhere did I find the statistics about "crossover rate" you mention above.
One thing to consider is that the tremendous growth in bowhunting over the last thirty years has been fueled by existing gun hunters increasing their avidity level in whitetail deer hunting by becoming two-season hunters. Early 90's research by Responsive Management and Southwick and Associates found that 82% of all bowhunters were gun hunters prior to becoming a bowhunter. "Crossover" has been going on long before the recent increased interest in crossbows.
Briarpatch: The Tonkovich and Cartwright report was published as part of the proceedings of the First Annual Bowhunting Summit. If you can not find it send me a PM with your e-mail and I will scan and send it to you.
I personally hunt with traditional archery equipment for the same reasons Mr. Pope, Mr Young, Mr. Bear and a host of others did and still do. Because I want to make the killing part of what I do as difficult as possible. These great men worked against great odds to get game officials to recognize that in the hands of some individuals a primitive weapon was lethal and humane and that we should be set apart from those who chose to use modern weapons. It seems to me we should still be set apart. If some one wants to take an easier route , then fine . Just don't let them hunt during a time frame designated as the primitive season. but we lost this battle years ago when we didn't fight the compound. I fail to see how we will win it now. its a very sad situation.
QuoteOriginally posted by LITTLEBIGMAN:
It seems to me we should still be set apart. If some one wants to take an easier route , then fine . Just don't let them hunt during a time frame designated as the primitive season.
And who exactly do you think will get the most time in the woods, the 40% of longbow hunters(includes longbow, recurve, and compound) or the 60% of crossbow hunters? Keep supporting this idea and see who loses their time in the woods. I'm not trying to be offensive at all, but this just goes back to what I've said before. It's all about the money and we're simply pennies in a billion dollar enterprise.
"but we lost this battle years ago when we didn't fight the compound."
And in spite of all the hand wringing and concern at the time, the compound revolution didn't destroy bowhunting.
jcj that depends upon one's definition of "bow" hunting
Yes and we are all entitled to our own definition. I have seen that definition change in the 35 years I have been involved in archery and bowhunting. And I am certain it will continue to change going forward and reflect the ideals of the majority. A sad situation for you or I may be the cats meow for the next hunter.
QuoteOriginally posted by Horner:
QuoteOriginally posted by Buckeye Trad Hunter:
Sorry that I offended some people with the facts the last time I posted on this issue. Toehead, how would you feel if 22 of the 33 bears had been taken with traditional gear and the crossbow hunters were calling for an end to your season? Would you feel that we should limit how many people could use trad gear then? Maybe this was just a good year for bear? I would be very upset too if I had to eat a $100 tag. I just don't understand why people get so torn up over what someone else hunts with. Is it because they kill too many animals? If so you're only supporting their argument of their effectiveness. Is it because you think all crossbow hunters are lazy slobs? A slob is a slob no matter what weapon you give them. Maybe they don't have enough time to practice with a stickbow. In that case you should commend them for using a weapon that they are proficient with, not condem them. I'm not trying to make anyone mad and Owlbait, I apologize for ruffling your feathers last time, but everyone needs to look at the reality of the situation and realise that there is no way to win this fight. It , like everything else is all about the money and every argument you try to make will be turned against you and could in reality have stickbows banned from bowseason. We're only pennies in a billion dollar industry and no one likes it when you reach in their purse.
I agree totally,..... If someone wants to hunt with an X-Bow more power to them...I would rather people hunt with what they can shoot well with, then wound a bunch of deer with something they can't use.
I don't think everyone has the discipline to hunt with a traditional bow. It takes a bunch of practice and time. Most people now days don't have that time.
I support all hunters, I feel that is the way it should be. [/b]
I find this quite puzzling. If you support any weapon then why not handguns during archery seasons? Why not muzzleloaders? If someone can't use a crossbow because they don't have time to practice with one or can't afford one why not a gun?
This kind of thinking is what got us into this situation. The "ME" generation.
QuoteOriginally posted by Redeye:
This kind of thinking is what got us into this situation. The "ME" generation. [/QB]
I have to disagree. The "me" generation are the ones who don't want other people in "their woods" during "their season" because they don't aprove of the weapon they choose to use when the law deems it legal. If that's not only thinking about ones self then please, tell me what is.
Maybe I'm just misunderstanding. Are people angry with those who choose to hunt with crossbows or with the fact that crossbows are being allowed in archery season? I'm getting some conflicted reasoning. I can understand the it's not archery equipment argument, but being upset because someone chooses to hunt with a crossbow when they're told that they can isn't something I can agree with. As stated in a book we all know, hate the sin not the sinner.
I can not speak for others. I am vehemently opposed to the use of the crossbow by able bodied people during the archery only seasons.
JCJ,
Tonkovich was asked by Dr.Dave Samuel at the First Bowhunter Annual Summit the following.
"What affect will crossbow use during the archery season have on major deer producing states?"
Tonkovich said: "It will have a drastic affect on bowhunting as we know it."
Those are from my notes taken at the summit.
"It will have a drastic affect on bowhunting as we know it."
It's been many years since the Summit, can you point me in the direction of those drastic affects?
I will copy Mike Tonkovich on Monday and ask if he can enlighten me on his comments to Dr. Samuel.
Thanks for your insight, I am always looking to increase my knowledge on the subject.
His response could mean many things. I took his answer to mean that the complexion of bowhuning itself would change should crossbows be legalized. I took it to mean that it would no longer be considered a bowhunting season but crossbow hunting season and that the crossbow would be the weapon of choice to the majority in very short order. Could also increase the kill before the rut further giving the die hard gun hunters more leverage to push for shorter archery seasons.
Here in Michigan the vendors can't stock enough crossbows for the demand.
Depending on which side of the debate you are on the change in complexion could be a positive or a negative. I see the recruitment of an existing one season firearms deer hunter into a two season firearm and archery deer hunter as a positive from a hunter retention standpoint. The compound has been a proven, effective tool in this effort and the crossbow will serve the same function. If I could find evidence of wholesale desertion by existing traditional (vertical) bowhunters as a result of a states inclusion of crossbows in archery seasons, or a direct correlation between inclusion and a decrease in archery (bowhunting) participation, then I might feel otherwise. To date I can find no evidence of this.
Since the full inclusion of crossbows it ain't bow season any more.
If you think hunting with a crossbow is bowhunting I feel sorry for you.
As long as no one is saying that we can't hunt with traditional tackle why does anyone care what someone else hunts with? No one is telling you that you have to hunt with a crossbow. You're worried that they may take time away from "your" bow season, push for a crossbow only season and that's exactly what they'll do is they'll take it from "your" archery season to make extra time for them. It has had no effect on the archery season for 28 years in Ohio and that isn't oppinion or hearsay my friend it's fact.
The difference between Ohio and Michigan is the shear numbers of hunters.
Last I looked Ohio is not a major deer producing state.
You are also very lucky that in Ohio you have very short gun seasons.
If you get back to the real issue here in Nebraska, the facts are that a few people pushed it through for the sake of selling more licsences in the early archery season for the Outfitters here! Money, Money, Money!!! Sad that those people already get to hunt the rut and all of december and now have an unlimited season, and we always did let handicap people hunt archery season with xbows, so whats next? If ya endorse everything it seems ya must have a motive! The landowners that complain along the river corridors that deer are overpopulated, either don't manage their deer herd or its leased out for trophy hunting and they let no one shoot doe! They try to tell us that xbows will kill more doe, I say bunk to that they will kill the bucks and the overpopulated areas will not get anymore hunting pressure on the does! I know in a way we are all guilty because we buy all the stuff from big chain outdoor stores and the gear company's get richer and spend their money leasing and buying land up that they don't have a clue how to manage! So don't cry when you either have no choice and either have to pay big bucks to hunt someday or not hunt! Whew! YA GOT TO STAND FOR SOMETHING OR YOU'LL FALL FOR ANYTHING !!!
And they say a horse is a horse, is a horse, of course!? LOL-Right!! CROSSBOWS ARE NOT ARCHERY ! ------------------------YA GOT TO STAND FOR SOMETHING OR YOU'LL FALL FOR ANYTHING !!!
Fischman, I completly agree with the statement that one day you are going to have to pay an outrageous amount to hunt or not hunt at all if you don't own property to hunt on, but that's a different subject all together. I also disagree that allowing crossbows will cause more does to be killed, the weapon a person chooses has no bearing on which animal they will take. I also appreciate and understand your argument that you feel a crossbow is not archery equipment.
Redeye, What are you considering a major deer producing state? Numbers of whitetail or numbers of whitetail in the books? But that also is a different argument altogether. I'm not a naturalist or state biologist, not even close, but maybe we have such a short gun season because we have such a succesful archery season? Not saying that's the reason, just a possibility. I don't know what the reason is. I'm not trying to argue, I'm just trying to be open and understand everyones side of the subject.
Two things about this change especially irk me.
The first is that bowhunters are called selfish for not wanting to share the archery-only season with a weapon that does not require bow-shooting skills. The crossbow requires only gun-shooting techniques and therefore does not require the learning curve all bowhunters must face and master. Bow seasons have always been open to anyone wanting to learn the somewhat challenging sport of shooting a hand-held bow. That's not selfish. And bowhunters are always recruiting more people into the sport and are the first to step forward to teach newbies. That's not selfish. Want to shoot a bow, any numerous individuals and organizations will step forward to help. Wanting a quality hunt is a huge part of bowhunting, and no more selfish than a waterfowler not wanting another spread of decoys 200 yards from his, or pulling up to a CRP field to hunt pheasants and seeing another group of hunters pulling out, or seeing a fisherman set up in your favorite spot. Calling bowhunters selfish (which is what the crossbow folks, the NGPC, and others) in NE is hypocritical and really unfair and untrue.
The second thing that especially irks me here in NE is that there was no grass-roots effort whatsoever for crossbows. None. Just one or two squeaky wheels, and Game and Parks Commission hell-bent on selling more permits, and a whole lot of pressure from one or two micro-managing state senators who know little to nothing about natural resources.
Well put WaryBuck, just proves someone is always wanting what others have and will do anything to cheapen it up !
QuoteOriginally posted by Redeye:
This kind of thinking is what got us into this situation. The "ME" generation. [/QB]
Your comment does not even make sense......How can I be about ME, when I openly said I support all hunters????
Anyway I agree again with all points Buckeye Trad Hunter has made.
If we push issues like this we will have:
Longbow season
Recurve season
Compound season
X-bow season
After that happens we can all sit around and talk about who gets the best hunting dates, and how that is not fair.
This is how I truly feel in my heart.... ALL hunters need to stick together.
A long time ago their was a dove hunting issue on our local ballot. I am not a dove hunter, but I voted for dove hunting in Ohio because I am sure a bunch of guys do like to hunt them. Who am I to say I don't do that, so you should not either?
QuoteOriginally posted by Fischman:
And they say a horse is a horse, is a horse, of course!? LOL-Right!! CROSSBOWS ARE NOT ARCHERY ! ------------------------YA GOT TO STAND FOR SOMETHING OR YOU'LL FALL FOR ANYTHING !!!
Yes Sir.... I stand for the rights of all hunters to lawfully hunt with their weapon of choice.
I love being a traditional archer, but I don't feel personally that I am any more of a hunter than the guy who uses all the bells and whistles to get it done.
I just have made a personal choice to bow hunt traditionally.
I just have made a personal choice to bow hunt traditionally. [/QB][/QUOTE]
x2
If crossguns were O.K., then why have all the states that have recently announced full inclusion in archery seasons, done so in a "back door" manner?!!!?
If the vote was left to the people, and the inclusion was voted in, then so be it.
This is however, NOT the case!!!
Bonebuster,
I see exactly what you mean. I guess it has always been a part of Ohio's archery season, for my hunting life span. Your comment really made me think about what it might feel like to be in someone shoes, where it was not the norm.
QuoteOriginally posted by Bonebuster:
If crossguns were O.K., then why have all the states that have recently announced full inclusion in archery seasons, done so in a "back door" manner?!!!?
If the vote was left to the people, and the inclusion was voted in, then so be it.
This is however, NOT the case!!!
Back door manner.......it's just like all the other decisions that are made "behind closed doors". If you grease the "right palms" you might be surprised what can happen.
Now as for allowing the "people" to make a decision on whether something is "legal" to use in season or not. :saywhat:
You might REALLY wanna "re-think" that, because I'm telling you right now.......just as sure as I am sitting here breathing in oxygen that if you EVER put "hunting" as an "entirity" on an election ballot.......most, if not ALL of us wouldn't be hunting anymore......PERIOD !!!
I saw it happen right here in WV with the "Sunday Hunting"......the legislature passed a law that "allowed" Sunday hunting in all 55 counties......people complained enough to the right folks and it was then put up for a vote on a county basis. There is no longer ANY Sunday hunting in WV.
Think what you may.......WE as "hunters", regardless of means used to take said animal are a MINORITY......and we would lose BIG !!! If you were to put on a ballot for the public to vote on whether it was legal to have green hair, it would become illegal......simply because MOST people DON'T have, or want to have green hair.
Numbers don't lie. It doesn't matter to me what you hunt with, if it is legal and in season, have at it. I wasn't put on this earth to "judge" anyone......it is a personal choice as to what you use. This is a "traditional archery" site, and I very frequently come here because I enjoy the company of other traditional archers. That being said, I also hunt with various muzzle-loaders, from a flint-lock to a modern inline. I don't talk about, nor post about any kills that I make with ANY of them. I also have been known to occasionally hunt with a center-fire rifle....and again, I make no mention of ANY kills that I have or will make with them.
I don't have to participate with ANY weapon that I don't choose to use, but I believe that I still should have the choice to do so....if it is legal. It's kinda like the people complain because of the "nature" of some of the shows on TV, or the radio......that's why I also have the "choice" to NOT listen to or watch them, I believe that in today's day and age that there are few, if any houses that don't have a "remote" or two to SWITCH the channels with.
The Division of Wildlife in most states are ran to be as "proffitable" as possible, NOT to "appease" the people that exercise their "choice" to HUNT.....regardless of their choice of weapon. Agree......or disagree, it matters NOT to me. It is a well-known fact, that this is true. As long as they are able to "sell" all the tags they need to, at a price that makes them remain "proffitable".......things will never change. It is sad, but they manage the animals in a way that is........most of the time, NOT in the animals best interest. I believe that the wildlife "BIOLOGISTS" truly do know what is best, but from talking to them and personally knowing several, their hands are tied.
For the sake of hunting as a "whole"....I can only hope and pray that before the tree hugging/bunny lovers figure out how "divided" a lot of "hunters" are, that we can somehow, someway "unite" and agree that population control for our game animals is a necessity and a "benefit" for the animals well-being and longevity on this planet, elsewise our future generations will not have the luxury to pursue them........they will be GONE.
If the method that someone else chooses to pursue their hobby doesn't suit you......instead of "complaining" about the "ethics and morality" of their choice.....when it is legal to do so, just leave it alone and say nothing at all. Sometimes, I have found that if I don't have anything "positive" to say.......I just keep my mouth shut. God gave us two ears and one mouth for a reason.....to do twice as much listening as talking.
Just because my #1 choice of hunting is with a traditional bow hasn't nor does it make me ANY better than anyone else that buys their licenses and legally hunts any game animal within the limit of the law. I'm no better, nor worse than anyone else........and don't profess to be. I get so sick and tired of all the "bickering" about crap like this. The truth is that if ANY weapon that any "manufacturer" wanted a state to legalize pours ENOUGH money into making it happen..........it WILL.......whether we agree with it or not. Like it or not.......it always has been and still is......all about the MONEY.
Believe what you may.......I was born at night, but it wasn't last night.
Winterhawk1960
Just Google "Top Shot" the program that aired on the History Channel. Look up and view the Archery Episode. During the first part, the marksmen had to compete with a longbow, very questionable results. During the second segment, they were given a crossbow. The "expert" who helped them was Bill Troubridge, a crossbow manufacturer. His own words, and you can see and hear him speak them for yourself: "The hardest thing about shooting a crossbow, is learning how to cock it" From one of the marksmen: "Now that's more like it, a flatter trajectory."
First shot was a bullseye. They all mastered the crossbow instantly, not the same outcome with the longbow.
I must agree with the BS line about "selfish", or "elitist" bowhunters. Bowhunters lobbied long and hard to be accepted, and had to prove themselves time and time again. Moreover, here in NY, we do share the woods with small game hunters, and upland bird hunters before the firearms season. So that line holds no water. the archery season should be for hand held, hand drawn bows only.
get the book TIMELESS BOWHUNTING by Damnit, I think by Roy S. Marlow...can't remember....
anyway there are studies in the book comparing expert compound shooters to first time crossbow shooters, crossbow shooters clearly more accurate than experienced compound shooters.
"Moreover, here in NY, we do share the woods with small game hunters, and upland bird hunters before the firearms season."
Another way to look at is that small game and upland bird hunters have "shared" their woods with bowhunters since small game and upland bird seasons were established long before the first archery seasons.
The inclusion of crossguns in archery season is indeed all about money.
When money management becomes more important than wildlife management it won`t take long for it to show it`s effects.
The worst part about Nebraska's move, is that bowhunting groups were down-right lied to. The sense of betrayal is the most frustrating aspect to accept. Why do the SOBs tell us they want our opinion and want to work with local hunting and conservation groups, then lie to our faces about inclusion and decision making. The cross-bow will not impact how I hunt. It likely will not affect my success rate either. But it is frustrating to be lied to.
I do not begrudge people for hunting with a cross-bow. If it is as efficient at killing as archery gear, have at it. I still hunt deer with high-powered rifle during rifle season and enjoy it. Does that make me morally corrupt. Hell No!!
The way cross-bows were legalized for the entire bowhunting season was a surprise that occurred with minimal if any public input. And after the deed was done, we didn't even get an "I love you".
Jerks!