I now own 3 of these bows and know of two others.
The interesting part is that they were all purchased in immaculate condition.
Lets see how long a list we can actually generate of a single prefix of arguably the most collectable of the Kodiak series.
Pics would be nice, however, I would rather have the info without a pic rather than not have it.
DDave
Dave,
The 1960 serial numbers continued on from the 1959 numbering so the first letter B was also used for the 60" Kodiaks at the beginning of 1960.
Over the years, the serial numbering sequence changed over 12 times on the Kodiaks...
From 1959 into the first part of 1960 the new numbering was
BA (1959 60" maple or dark rosewood sight window Kodiaks)
BB (1959 60" mostly purple heart sight window Kodiaks)
BC (1959 60" Kodiaks)
BD (1959 60" Kodiaks)
BE (1959 60" Kodiaks)
BF( 1959 60" Kodiaks)
BG (1959 60" Kodiaks) - maybe some 1960s in these numbers
BH (1960 60" Kodiaks) - maybe some 1959s in these numbers
BI (1960 60" Kodiaks)
BJ (1960 60" Kodiaks)
I have three 1960s that are BJ which is about as far as that lettering went until it was changed to begin with two numbers.
Thanks, Wade. Nice to have probably the premier collector of 60 Kodiaks input so early in the thread.
DDave
Unquestionably, the two most collectible serial numbering sequences for Kodiaks that I have seen in my 53 years of involvement with Bear bows would be...
BA which is the 60" maple sight window Kodiaks and the 60" dark Rosewood sight window Kodiaks.
AA which is the 56" 1959 Kodiaks and later the 1960 Kodiaks.
Several of the AA and BA bows have sold for well over $1,000, some for over $1,500 and a few for over $2,000. Many of these bows with specific wood in the sight window are extremely rare, in one case only a single example has surfaced so far and only found as late as 2010. Other extremely rare Kodiaks may surface in the future. One thing I have learned, is that anything could have been made.
Although I have never seen a BH approach the high end sale price of the AA or BA Kodiaks, anything is possible.
Dave, Just checked a couple more racks...
The BH 1960 Kodiaks I have are
BH 059 - 55# - 60" - Medium Width Tips - Floyd Eccleston's Bow
BH 98 - 36# - 60" - Medium Width Tips - Al's Bow
BH 501 - 48# - 60" - Narrow Width Tips
Dave,
Also have three BJ 1960 Kodiaks
All three have narrow tips
These are the only two BH serial numbers I have. A 59 at 50# and a 60 at 31#
(http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k267/bowjack/IMG_9401.jpg)
(http://i90.photobucket.com/albums/k267/bowjack/IMG_9402.jpg)
Jack, your two bows raise a question based on the serial number of the 1959 being HIGHER than the one for the 1960. When did the serial number go on the bow; when it was made or when it was shipped?
Very puzzling!
Ray
Wade,
My 1959 Kodiak has rosewood in the sight window, but the serial number is BB341....I guess it must be one of the "mostly" bows. Also, what color is the glass on the 1960 compared to the '59s brown and burnt orange?
Great info, thanks
Wade:
Did the serial number change later in the year for the 60's? Mine doesn't even start with a letter:
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d185/bctgrad/P1040137a.jpg)
Brian
Brian -
The last line of Wade's first post on this topic answers your question:
"I have three 1960s that are BJ which is about as far as that lettering went until it was changed to begin with two numbers.".
Nice grain in that sight window, by the way!
Ray
Thanks Ray, I totally missed that in Wade's post. I was starting to wonder if something was wrong with mine.
Brian
1960
BH 909
60"
50#
I have some photos somewhere, but not on PB.
Bob - I have one of the "others" in the "mostly" group as well from '59:
1959 Maple Sight Window
BB143
60"
60#
http://tradgang.com/noncgi/ultimatebb.php?ubb=get_topic;f=14;t=004489
QuoteOriginally posted by bctgrad:
Wade:
Did the serial number change later in the year for the 60's? Mine doesn't even start with a letter:
(http://i35.photobucket.com/albums/d185/bctgrad/P1040137a.jpg)
Brian
That is some beautiful rosewood grain in the i-beam.
What a lot of people fail to realize is that the wood of the i-beam, although it only shows up well in the sight window, really goes from fade to fade.
I will post a pic of my 61 KS where it is very obvious.
(http://i849.photobucket.com/albums/ab54/damascusdave_2009/015.jpg)
DDave
Wow, I think I started something a bit bigger here than I could even imagine. I will try to compile the total daily.
DDave
Thanks so much everyone for contributing.
Mine is BH 668
60" & 52#
Wade, is an 11N41 serial # on a 56" model fairly rare? What if the gold writing is gone but you can still read what was there? It says 36 @ 26" below the serial # and 40 @ 28" above the serial number vert faintly. I am not sure how or why the gold writing was removed. Any info. would be greatly appreciated. Thank you.
ahandle70 -
The serial # 11N41 would be a 1960 Kodiak in the scheme of Bear's numbering at the time, but remember there are always exceptions to nearly every rule, especially this one as hand written letters and numbers were put on by humans. And mistakes are made, we all make mistakes every day, some of us more than others.
I don't usually put much store in serial numbers, especially as an absolute for dating bows. As I have said many times, the form the bow was built on is the determining factor in dating a bow as everything else could have been changed either accidentally or on purpose.
The 56" 1960 Kodiak is a fairly rare bird and in my experience a damn good shooting bow.
Of the three 56" 1960 Kodiaks that I have, AA886, 56" 50# is the best shooting. Doc refinished it and it looks awesome. I named it "Speedy" for obvious reasons.
Some of the serial numbers and lettering on these old Kodiaks are hard to read because a coat of finish was not put over the letters and those with a lot of use are usually the hardest to read. Many 56" are weighted and lettered @26" because they were designed for 26" draw lengths as stated in the catalog.
I've only seen a couple of Bears that have two lengths and weights written on the bow. Doc has probably seen a lot more of that than I have.
Wade, thanks for the response. I've strung the bow up but I have not shot it yet. I have a 29-1/2" draw and like to stick to the 60" bows and longer. My bother and I spoke to you at a shoot in Fremont years ago shortly after he came across a 56" 1959 model. I believe you said you came across a really nice 59' that was hanging in a store window for 15 bucks if I remember correctly. One of your friends let me shoot a 64" 1966 Kodiak that I think he got from you at that shoot. I still dream about how good that bow shot. Nice trio of Signature Takedowns too btw. Dang!!!
QuoteOriginally posted by 69RECURVE:
Mine is BH 668
60" & 52#
You realize that when you finally give up and sell that bow to me I will have two pairs of consecutive number bows. :pray:
DDave
ahandle70 -
With a 29-1/2" draw, you are wise not to shoot that 56" Kodiak. Percentage wise, I've seen more of the 56" Kodiaks that were broken than any other length. I am convinced that the breakages and separations were mostly due to being drawn over 26".
It is good for you to stick to the 60" bows and longer.
I don't remember the the really nice 59' that was hanging in a store window for 15 bucks, but then I don't rmember what I had for lunch today either...
Those 65 and 66 Kodiaks are way to heavy for me to haul around all day. Mine just sit on the pegs and collect dust.
Come on people, one more and that will be ten on the first day (if we do not count Jack's 1959).
DDave
QuoteOriginally posted by Wade Phillips:
ahandle70 -
With a 29-1/2" draw, you are wise not to shoot that 56" Kodiak. Percentage wise, I've seen more of the 56" Kodiaks that were broken than any other length. I am convinced that the breakages and separations were mostly due to being drawn over 26".
It is good for you to stick to the 60" bows and longer.
I don't remember the the really nice 59' that was hanging in a store window for 15 bucks, but then I don't rmember what I had for lunch today either...
Those 65 and 66 Kodiaks are way to heavy for me to haul around all day. Mine just sit on the pegs and collect dust.
So the good news is you probably at least ate lunch.
As for those 65 and 66 bows I have already decided to live out my hunting days with a bow that is 50 years old at the time so I will be needing one of each in 2015 and 2016. We all know that a coating of dust greatly reduces the value.
DDave
Wade, you made a big impact me. The first time I met you was in Plattsmouth. You had a blue Chevy truck with some Bear bows in the box. You let me handle an original Grumley that you had brought. I knew right then that I would have many sleepless nights dreamin' about Bear recurves. I hope you remembered to eat lunch today!
Hey, if you talk to my doctor he would probably say that I should skip lunch for the rest of this month. Unfortunately, I'll have to face him the first week of next month and listen him...
That blue truck was my favorite until my pal hit a black Angus cow with it going 65 miles an hour and totaled it. Fortunately, nobody was hurt except the cow, who expired.
Grumleys, my favorite 1930s and 1940s bows. They are the best from that era. You should have been at the NTA Banquet two weeks ago in Fremont, we had 10 cases of Grumleys there all lined up in the Fremont Auditorium. They are true works of art. I love them.
This made me go to the rack too.............I found:
1959 Kodiaks
AA 034 56" PH SW
BA 260 60" MSW
BorD A 589 64" MSW
all three are black ink
and a
1960 56" Kodiak
AA 735
I have other 1959's and 1960's but did not look at those.
I love the way you guys just casually mention racks of bows.
So our official total for the first day, March 9, is 9 1960's and 1 1959 with BH prefixes.
The best part is the existence of two consecutive number pairs.
Joe St Charles, who would be as likely as any to have seen them, told me a while ago he has never seen a single consecutive number pair of 1960 Kodiaks let alone two.
DDave
Wade, I have a friend in Calgary who, when we were talking about Grumleys, walked into his bow room and brought out two, one a take down.
DDave
Oh and two friends who hit Black Angus at night.
One with a 1962 International 3/4 ton, hit a bull. The truck was not that badly dented so he must have seen it and slowed before he hit. I finally asked how the bull fared and he said, "sure made him mad, we had a hell of a time catching him".
The other happened the same year and she hit a cow with a VW bug. She got a pretty cut up forehead. Do not remember how either the cow or the car did.
DDave
Hey, is that the same Freemont where my 1986 Chevy Nova was built?
It was a joint venture involving both GM and Toyota.
It too died an ugly death, into an avalanche and then rear ended by the van following. Moments later a semi nearly wiped them all out.
We are learning lots of neat stuff in this thread. Where else but on tradgang?
DDave
Bjorn -
The first letter for all 64" MSW bows that I have seen is D which would make yours DA 589.
Dave -
Regarding your comment "It was a joint venture involving both GM and Toyota."
Fremont, Nebraska is the town I mentioned, there is no GM and Toyota joint venture there that I know of.... But of course some pot smoking kids could have something going there.
"Joint Venture" hahahaha Wade did you just make that up?
Thanks for the insight on 64" MSW's.
QuoteOriginally posted by yeager:
Wade,
My 1959 Kodiak has rosewood in the sight window, but the serial number is BB341....I guess it must be one of the "mostly" bows. Also, what color is the glass on the 1960 compared to the '59s brown and burnt orange?
Great info, thanks
yeager - Sorry I missed your question last night...
In the normal scheme of things that I have seen, BB341 should be a 60" 1959 Kodiak, built on the 60" 1959 Kodiak form which has slightly less recurve than the 1960 Kodiak form.
The tip overlays and the riser overlays should be red and cream marcarta rather than the typical black and white glass on the 1960 Kodiaks.
The sight window wood for bows in this serial number sequence is most commonly purpleheart.
Sometimes the purpleheart is so dark that it looks like rosewood. The finish darkens to the point that you can only use the grain of the wood to determine the wood type... unless of course you want to scratch off some of the finish :knothead: - which is usually not recommended...
There are a handful of early 1959 Kodiaks that have dark rosewood sight windows. This rosewood is the same as you would see in the sight windows of the 1958 Kodiak Specials.
The dark rosewood sight windows in 1959 Kodiaks are very rare and highly collectible.
Even rarer are the Bubinga sight windows in the 1959 Kodiaks of which I have only seen a couple.
I know this was not the topic but will include it here anyway. Knowing these letter prefixes on 1959 Kodiaks is particularly useful if you want something specific, like a 1959 Kodiak to hunt with. You would then want one with fiberglass up the string groove for a more durable bow. So, the prefixes might steer you to something later in Wade's list-like a BC in the 60" or DC in a 64", or anything after 'C' for that matter. I don't think any of the 'B' series had that-did they Wade?
QuoteOriginally posted by Bjorn:
"Joint Venture" hahahaha Wade did you just make that up?
Thanks for the insight on 64" MSW's.
Bjorn - Yes, I did just come up with the "Joint Venture" - Guess it was a pretty natural thought for a kid who grew up in the 1960s and who was exposed to some of the hippe culture and who went off to basic training in 1967.
Bjorn -
Yes, the depth of the string groove is really a valuable tip and one that I like to stress when guys ask about acquiring a 1959 Kodiak to use extensively.
The string grooves were cut by hand and do vary a bit as far as depth through the glass.
I have a few BC 1959 Kodiaks and one BD 1959 Kodiak with the string grooves cut all the way through the glass into the limb lamination.
The main thing is to examine the bow to see if the string groove is cut through the glass, regardless of the serial number.
The real problem is the glass lifting at the end of the taper of the glass. I'm convinced most of this was caused from guys unstringing the bow and then putting the sting on the back of the bow in both string grooves... sometimes referred to as "reverse stringing". When someone pulled back the bow when it was reverse strung it sometimes pulled the glass off the laminations or even cracked the laminations along the string groove.
I am always careful to completely examine the entire bow with a 10x loop before shooting an old bow for the first time. I want to make sure there are no separations or cracks in the glass or laminations.
I am overly cautious with an old bow for the first time and never shoot one that shows any signs of damage. I make sure it is repaired properly before shooting it.
It is our job to make sure these old bows that have survived for 50 years or more are properly taken care of and repaired, so they can survive another 50 years or more so the future generations can enjoy these great old bows as much as we have enjoyed owning and shooting them in our lifetime.
QuoteOriginally posted by Bjorn:
I know this was not the topic but will include it here anyway. Knowing these letter prefixes on 1959 Kodiaks is particularly useful if you want something specific, like a 1959 Kodiak to hunt with. You would then want one with fiberglass up the string groove for a more durable bow. So, the prefixes might steer you to something later in Wade's list-like a BC in the 60" or DC in a 64", or anything after 'C' for that matter. I don't think any of the 'B' series had that-did they Wade?
Hey the topic is basically build the knowledge base around one series of 1960 Kodiaks which includes any and all bits of the minutest trivia.
I can feel Papa Bears presence saying "way to sort out the puzzle" or "what a bunch of silly old fools" depending on whether we are right on with our guesses, close or way off base. The seller of the BH bow I just bought has a 64 inch 59 for sale as well and with a 30 inch draw I would be far better off for hunting with it. I may just end up with it as well now.
Do you ever think I expected, when I started this thread, that I would find out that the next bow in sequence to my latest belongs to a fellow tradganger. Now I have no choice but to act on that knowledge. It have already pm'd the owner with a proposal.
You guys have forgotten more about Bear bows than I will ever know and I am humbled and honoured to be in your company. I love to teach people anything and everything that I can and what I need is a broad and accurate knowledge base.
And btw the Freemont I was referring to is in California where the concept of joint venture takes on an even greater meaning.
DDave
I kinda' thought that was the Fremont in question the plant is about 15 miles from my house, and we are arm pit deep in 'joint ventures' here. 'Joint Venture' I'm glad this thread came along. Ol' Fred would be proud. :bigsmyl:
What does a DD 021 mean? 64", 46# at 28" , gold ink. Talked to the first owner, said he bought it in 59'.
QuoteOriginally posted by Bjorn:
I kinda' thought that was the Fremont in question the plant is about 15 miles from my house, and we are arm pit deep in 'joint ventures' here. 'Joint Venture' I'm glad this thread came along. Ol' Fred would be proud. :bigsmyl:
Okay so now I gotta come visit you cause that was one hell of a car. I sold it to my stepson and it had been in two accidents before he bought it. He had so many accidents with it he was not even sure. One day when he was working someone hit it and caved in both passenger side doors in the parking lot.
They were a Corolla with GM wrapper and the Corollas from that era rusted like crazy whereas the Novas, what few are still left around, generally look pretty nice.
DDave
Okay now, so the serial on the 59 in question is DV440 telling me it is a later 59 and then there is an "E" below the draw weight. Now what might the "E" mean?
DDave
QuoteOriginally posted by Bjorn:
...'Joint Venture' I'm glad this thread came along. Ol' Fred would be proud. :bigsmyl:
Bjorn - Yes, Fred is one who always enjoyed a laugh.
Steve95 - In answer to your question about the meaning of DD 021 64", 46# @ 28"
The first D means the bow is a 64" 1959 Kodiak
The second D means it is the letter in the numbered series, DA, DB, DC, DD, or better stated, it is the 4th group of 999 64" Kodiaks
The 021 means that it is the 21st bow made in the DD series
So if you subscribe to thought that there are 999 bows in each the DA, DB, DC, DD
Your bow would be the 3,018 th 64" Kodiak made...
However there is some speculation as to the exact number of each bow made in a given length.
QuoteOriginally posted by damascusdave:
Okay now, so the serial on the 59 in question is DV440 telling me it is a later 59 and then there is an "E" below the draw weight. Now what might the "E" mean?
DDave
Dave, about the DV... V is a very high second letter. The highest second letter 64" 1959 Kodiak that I have is DE, which I have always thought was near the end of the run as logically there were fewer of the 64" Kodiaks made than the 60" Kodiaks.
I'm sure that Doc can shed some light on this as he has probably worked on more 1959 Kodiaks then most of us have seen in our lifetimes.
Supposedly a letter under the draw weight indicated the employee who measured the draw weight.
Like many word of the mouth statements about Bear Bows, I have never seen any documentation from the factory to substantiate the statement as absolute fact.
Yeah, I would guess the Doc is still havin some computer issues, I keep hoping he will show up any time.
I think I am gonna let the 59 slide as I need a long bow in my arsenal for the North American Longbow Safari and I have been playing with a very nice Robertson for quite a while.
Had a neat experience a while ago. Went out to shake down some crabapples for my back yard mulies and there was my cat in the tree trying to catch a magpie. We got a little contest on for whose cat can make a documented magpie kill.
On second thought a 64 incher like that does not appear every day.
Oh well, only cure for this addiction is more bows.
DDave
Thanks for all the shared info. Thats why I like it here so much. My Archery Collecting knowledge has grown tremendously since accessing this site.
(http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy71/64kodiak/1957and1959Kodiaks027.jpg)
(http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy71/64kodiak/1957and1959Kodiaks026.jpg)
(http://i779.photobucket.com/albums/yy71/64kodiak/1957and1959Kodiaks024.jpg)
Wade,
No problem at all. Thanks for getting back. Now that I looked closer, it just might be purpleheart in the riser which, like you mentioned, sometimes becomes very dark. And it does have the red/cream tip & riser overlays.
I'm in the process of refinishing one of my 1957 Kodiaks, and when complete I'll start on my 1959. Hopefully that will bring out the color of the purpleheart. It wouldn't be my luck to have one of those rare 1959's with the dark rosewood!
Again, thanks!!
Yeager
Dave,
By the way, I hope you don't mind my asking Wade a few questions on "your" post.
Yeager
QuoteOriginally posted by yeager:
Dave,
By the way, I hope you don't mind my asking Wade a few questions on "your" post.
Yeager
When Wade comes out to play we should all benefit.
I pretty much just bought the 59 as well which has, surprisingly, a purple heart i-beam ( and i do not even like purple heart). On the other hand the rosewood is to die for.
I might have just missed it if you had not started the ball rolling with Wade back a couple of pages.
Thank you.
DDave
No, thank you.....great post and a wealth of information to had by all!!
yeager -
You posted some very nice photographs of your 59 Kodiak.
Judging from the grain in your I-Beam and the color of the wood, I am certain that it is Purpleheart.
A word of caution from an overly cautious old fart, if the bow were mine, I'd make certain the diagonal crack in the Purpleheart was properly repaired before I shot it.
Wade, You guys have perked my curiousity so I just have to ask. It would appear that a lot more research has gone on since the Shooting and Collecting Article came out by the late Al Reader on the dating of Bear Bows. :"numbering system on 50's and early 60's the serial numbers were started over every month." As opposed to every 999 bows. A few other questions comes to mind and that being would each model of the Bear line in those years have a similar numbering system only with a different initial letter? I have a 59 KS XF086 and 59 Griz FG584L. And, as the 59 year came to an end could they have used the silver coin due to running out of brass. Just wondering....... Great Thread Dave
Thanks Wade,
I guess I'm just used to seeing that beautiful true purple color that the Bowdoc gets when he refinishes a bow. And yes, she won't be shot until I refinish her, crack and all.
Larry -
Unfortunately, Al isn't here any longer to give us his insights. And a lot of time has passed which has brought many more bows to the surface for us to examine and catalog. I have the benefit of reading what Al wrote, talking to Al many times about these things, having the partial Bear factory serial number records to examine and dissect and the time to focus on this particular subject for quite a while since Al's death.
I'm pretty much a fact based guy who likes to have concrete evidence in documents and/or artifacts from the era.
Larry - I have covered the 1959 Kodiak Special serial numbers in great depth in another thread somewhere. I'll try to find it and post the link here.
That thread will answer your question, and you can plug in your serial number.
In 1959, each different bow style and length had the first letter to designate that specific bow. There were 5 different lengths of the 1959 Kodiak Special.
Your XF086 should be a 66" 1959 Kodiak Special.
It is possible that any bow could be mis-marked as humans were marking them. And as I have said many times, there are exceptions to nearly every rule with Bear Bows.
For the 1959 Grizzly, it was advertised only in 62" length and all of those bows that I remember seeing were marked with the first letter F.
Of course there is the lone 64" 1959 Grizzly which is also marked with an F as the first letter. Proof again, there is nearly always at least one exception to any rule.
Forget the coins, they are the most unreliable method to determine the date of a bow... If you re-read Al's comments about dating bows, he specifically stated coins should be used with other features.... he never stated it should be the only feature...
I try to preach this to everyone.. Any coin could have been put in any bow at any time.
Using only coins to date bows is for the beginning armature.
QuoteOriginally posted by Larry m:
Wade, You guys have perked my curiousity so I just have to ask. It would appear that a lot more research has gone on since the Shooting and Collecting Article came out by the late Al Reader on the dating of Bear Bows. :"numbering system on 50's and early 60's the serial numbers were started over every month." As opposed to every 999 bows. A few other questions comes to mind and that being would each model of the Bear line in those years have a similar numbering system only with a different initial letter? I have a 59 KS XF086 and 59 Griz FG584L. And, as the 59 year came to an end could they have used the silver coin due to running out of brass. Just wondering....... Great Thread Dave
Thanks, Larry, for the positive feedback. Check out the pics of the Twins in my earlier 1960 Kodiak thread and you will see they both have copper coins, so copper got used for at least some of the early 60 bows.
BH667 has an aluminum coin.
DDave
Dave -
As I have stated numerous times, I have owned and seen more 1960 Kodiaks with copper coins than with aluminum coins.
Again - Any coin could have been put in any bow at any time.
It is best to just forget the coins, they are as unimportant as other cosmetic features such as the rest and strike plate which are also easily replaced.
There are even 1959 Kodiaks as well as 1960 Kodiaks with No Coin Hole and No Coin ...
Can you imagine a modern day production bow leaving the factory with no coin?
The reason I buy, shoot and recommend these bows to others is that they have the character of not being truly mass produced.
BTW the id number for my bow on the bay is:
150573570307
DDave
Dave -
Better yet, - Can you imagine a modern day production bow leaving the factory with a Brazilian Rosewood Riser ? - No Way
They don't make them like they used to...
Your 150573570307 is a very nice looking bow. Judging from the price, there must still be a lot of interest in the LH 1960s....
Larry -
I want to touch again on the incorrect belief of what you quoted...
"numbering system on 50's and early 60's the serial numbers were started over every month."
The records from the Bear Factory actually state the serial numbers for each month. Some times a single series spanned several months...
I will give you a good example which we have talked about during the past two days....
The 56" 1959 Kodiaks are all numbered AA... now do you really believe that all 700 of these bows were made in the same month ???? And then no others were made during the other 11 months ???
That is not even logical. Not to mention the fact that serial number records prove that in some instances that a single series spanned several months.
Again, facts from the era in conjunction with examining a large number of the bows from the specific years, clearly proves the facts.
Well so far no new numbers for today, but man did we cover some territory.
And the best is yet to come, we got some key players who have yet to be heard from.
DDave
Let me rephrase that, the rest is yet to come. Hard to believe it can get any better.
DDave
Larry -
Here is the link to the Kodiak Special Numbers that I mentioned....
http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=14;t=002059;p=1
I just copied the KS Serial Numbers here and put your KS in there with these assumptions. You can tell us if my assumptions are correct...
1959 66". ??# - XF086 - no underlays - Larry
My crystal ball isn't working well enough to come up with the draw weight, you will have to help us with that number until I can get the crystal ball polished up a bit...
1959 62", 42# - VA040 - underlays - Bjorn
1959 62", 59# - VA105 - underlays - BowDoc to Tom to Bill
1959 62", 46# - VA 228 - underlays - Chuck
1959 62", 50# - Display - underlays - Wade
1959 62", 50# - VA467L - no underlays - Wade
1959 62", 50# - VA558L - no underlays - Trap
1959 62", 55# - VA612L - no underlays - Wade
1959 62", 40-45# - 17HX12 - no underlays - Chuck
1959 64", 52# - WA139 - underlays - Wade
1959 64", 32# - WA728 - underlays - Mike
1959 64", 52# - WA749 - underlays - BowDoc
1959 64", 48# - WB504 - underlays - Trap
1959 64", 28# - WB934 – no underlays - Bill
1959 64", 45# - WB998 - no underlays - minnesota_hunter
1959 64", 45# - WC020 - underlays - Chuck
1959 64", 53# - WC061 - no underlays - Jeremy
1959 64", 47# - WC365L - no underlays – Wade
1959 64", 40# - WC839 - no underlays - Auction 8-30-09
1959 64", 50# - WD438 - no underlays - Hoof
1959 64", 50# - ?????? - no underlays – Wade
1959 64", 52# - WL197 - no underlays - Bjorn
1959 64", 41# - 30HX1R - no underlays - Wade sold
1959 66", 55# - XA523 - underlays - Hoof
1959 66", 40# - XA591 - no underlays - Auction 8-22-2009
1959 66", 28# - XA844 - underlays - Wade
1959 66", 43# - XA969 - underlay - Bjorn
1959 66", 37# - XB05 - underlays - Dennis
1959 66", 40# - XB62 - Auction 2-8-2010
1959 66", 42# - XB348 - underlays - Auction 2-14-2010
1959 66", 40# - XB626 - Auction 8-30-2009
1959 66", 42# - XC412 - no underlays - Chris
1959 66", 44# - XD049 - no underlays - Scott
1959 66", 48# - XD119 - no overlays - Trap
1959 66", 49# - XD178 - no underlays - Bjorn
1959 66", 40# - XE403L - no underlays - seboomook
1959 66", 47# - XE685 – no underlays Dennis
1959 66", 42# - XF074 - no underlay - minnesota_hunter
1959 66". 40# - XF086 - no underlays - Larry
1959 66", 39# - XF090 – no underlays - Chuck
1959 66", 40# - XF790 - Auction 2-13-2010
1959 66", 40# - XF877R - no underlays - Chuck
1959 68", 45#@29" - YA349 - underlays - Dennis
1959 68", 45# - YA367 - underlays - Wade
1959 68", 39# - YA456 - underlays - 2-26-2008 Auction
1959 68", 32# - YB499A - no underlays – Chuck
1959 68", 55# - YA540 - Auction 2-8-2010
1959 68", 47# - YB626L - no underlays - Jeff
1959 68", 38# - YB965 - no underlays - Wade
1959 68", 39# - YC039 - No underlays - Trap
1959 68", 55# - 9YX29 - no underlays - Bjorn
1959 70", 40# - ZA110 - underlays - Chuck
1959 70", 38# - ?????? - underlays removed - Wade
1959 70", 50# - 5VX26 - no underlays - Trap
Hi Wade
It was meant as a question and not stated as a fact. Obviously your knowledge is far superior and that is why I posed the question to you. The illogical quote on monthly dating was taken from Shooting and Collecting Older Bear Archery Bows. I have a tendancy to let my mind wander a bit. There is alot of info that has been covered here over the years that is buried and not readily accessable. I realize nothing is cast in stone on the production of Bear Bows and that human error was a constant and changing factor and yes, the placement of coins was also included. I gave the KS and Griz # as an example only. The idea is to move beyond amateur and become more knowledgeable. Thanks for the KS link. Hurry and get that book written!
Hope I didn't offend you Wade.
Larry -
You didn't offend me at all. I simply took your question at face value. I certainly hope I did not offend you as that was never intended.
I'm glad you asked the question, because we all need to know the latest findings and updated information.
When I make a statement that is in conflict with what might be accepted as fact stated by another person, I like to clearly state the facts that support my statement, and let all the facts come to light.
Our objective should always be to arrive at the genuine truth, rather than try to determine who may have been incorrect on some point.
The KS and Griz were great examples...
So what is the draw weight of your KS, so we can updated the records.... ???
You are correct, there is much information lost in the buried threads that have gone before.
I'm just thankful that there is a thread search capability so I can find these previous threads.
Hi Wade
Thanks and please pardon me but as stated I have a Tendency to let my mind get to wandering when it comes to neat old items. A little info can be dangerous at times. The KS numbering system is dead on. Mine is a R/H 66" 40# with no underlays. Not sure on how to check the archives here other then a Google search. The longer I use this site the more I realize a lot of subjects have previously been covered.
Ok, now back to the Kodiak's cause I'm learning a lot here.
Jeez, directly in front of me! SEARCH right next to profile.
Okay mind wanderer, here is the problem I have with doing a search.
I start out focused and then get into a couple of pics that are interesting and next thing you know I have fogotten what I was searching for.
This thread is a great example of what wandering can do. I am now a collector of 64 inch 59's as well. And I have still not bought one that looks like it has been used much.
Wade has a great pic of a bunch of 60 Kodiaks lined up side by each, which shows the wide variation in limb tips, and I have been trying to get back to it for 2 days and still not even close.
DDave
Wade sorta forgot the most important thread to this discussion so I will link it here.
http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=14;t=002799;p=2
DDave
And a couple pics of my own to add.
(http://i849.photobucket.com/albums/ab54/damascusdave_2009/P3111707.jpg)
(http://i849.photobucket.com/albums/ab54/damascusdave_2009/P3111705.jpg)
I will let the pics speak for themselves.
DDave
Dave -
Will just copy that text and photograph from the July 2009 thread here so we have it to view..
Scott - Yes, many of the 60 grips are fat. Some of them are almost like having a hold of a tennis ball.
Lon - Yes, there are lots of variations.
The 6th from left with limbs like yours is # BJ116 which is toward the end of the B series numbers before they were abandoned.
There are really some different looking riser overlay shapes, particularly right at the shelf.
Not difficult to pick out the bows that are refinished... (and those that beg for refinish)
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/60K.jpg)
Bill -
The history of the ownership of VA105 is updated - BowDoc to Tom to Bill
Thanks for calling my attention to that badly needed update.
Let me know if anyone has other updates to add...
Larry -
Your questions are right on, no need to ask to be pardoned. It is important to revisit many of these issues and update the information that needs to be updated.
Glad you discovered the search feature. It is helpful, but sometimes gives us too many options...
Yes, the KS numbering system is dead on with your 66" KS with no underlays. I'm glad you only gave partial information so the rest could be filled in for you.
But remember there is almost always at least one exception to every rule about Bear Bows...
Wade and Dave
Great Pictures. Thanks! Just the transition from 59 to 60 and all the variables can be a bit mind boggling. In the past I have tried to use old Bear catalogs and previous stated info for the dating process. I'm in the process of chucking that out the window because nothing seems to be cast in stone when it comes to Bear Archery. I especially found the dating numbering system on the Kodiaks to be very interesting.
Larry -
I hate to beat a dead horse, but want to re-visit something you brought up so we can finish the discussion about the once popular belief that each month the serial numbers were started over.
When we look at these 1959 Kodiak Special serial numbers and see when the underlays were abandoned, we see these facts...
For the 62" bows, VA228 is the last known number with underlays, and VA612 is the highest known number...
So if we buy into the VA series being made in the same month, roughly only the first 1/2 month the bows had underlays... and the VA was abandoned after the first month... both are not logical assumptions...
For the 64" bows, WB504 is the highest known number with underlays... and numbers after WB934 have no underlays... so if we buy into the letters changing each month the WB series would have been made in the second month...
It is not even logical that underlays were abandoned during the first month for the 62" bows but not abandoned for the 64" bow until the second month.
And if the letters were changed each month why were the 62" bows made one month and the 64" bows made 12 months...
62" made 1 month - VA612 highest # - ???
64" made 12 months - WL197 highest # - ???
66" made 7 months - XF877 highest # - ???
68" made 3 months - YC039 highest # - ???
70" made 1 month - ZA110 highest # - ???
Again, none of these are logical assumptions...
http://tradgang.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=14;t=002059;p=1
1959 62", 42# - VA040 - underlays - Bjorn
1959 62", 59# - VA105 - underlays - BowDoc to Tom to Bill
1959 62", 46# - VA 228 - underlays - Chuck
1959 62", 50# - Display - underlays - Wade
1959 62", 50# - VA467L - no underlays - Wade
1959 62", 50# - VA558L - no underlays - Trap
1959 62", 55# - VA612L - no underlays - Wade
1959 62", 40-45# - 17HX12 - no underlays - Chuck
1959 64", 52# - WA139 - underlays - Wade
1959 64", 32# - WA728 - underlays - Mike
1959 64", 52# - WA749 - underlays - BowDoc
1959 64", 48# - WB504 - underlays - Trap
1959 64", 28# - WB934 – no underlays - Bill
1959 64", 45# - WB998 - no underlays - minnesota_hunter
1959 64", 45# - WC020 - underlays - Chuck
1959 64", 53# - WC061 - no underlays - Jeremy
1959 64", 47# - WC365L - no underlays – Wade
1959 64", 40# - WC839 - no underlays - Auction 8-30-09
1959 64", 50# - WD438 - no underlays - Hoof
1959 64", 50# - ?????? - no underlays – Wade
1959 64", 52# - WL197 - no underlays - Bjorn
1959 64", 41# - 30HX1R - no underlays - Wade sold
1959 66", 55# - XA523 - underlays - Hoof
1959 66", 40# - XA591 - no underlays - Auction 8-22-2009
1959 66", 28# - XA844 - underlays - Wade
1959 66", 43# - XA969 - underlay - Bjorn
1959 66", 37# - XB05 - underlays - Dennis
1959 66", 40# - XB62 - Auction 2-8-2010
1959 66", 42# - XB348 - underlays - Auction 2-14-2010
1959 66", 40# - XB626 - Auction 8-30-2009
1959 66", 42# - XC412 - no underlays - Chris
1959 66", 44# - XD049 - no underlays - Scott
1959 66", 48# - XD119 - no overlays - Trap
1959 66", 49# - XD178 - no underlays - Bjorn
1959 66", 40# - XE403L - no underlays - seboomook
1959 66", 47# - XE685 – no underlays Dennis
1959 66", 42# - XF074 - no underlay - minnesota_hunter
1959 66". 40# - XF086 - no underlays - Larry
1959 66", 39# - XF090 – no underlays - Chuck
1959 66", 40# - XF790 - Auction 2-13-2010
1959 66", 40# - XF877R - no underlays - Chuck
1959 68", 45#@29" - YA349 - underlays - Dennis
1959 68", 45# - YA367 - underlays - Wade
1959 68", 39# - YA456 - underlays - 2-26-2008 Auction
1959 68", 32# - YB499A - no underlays – Chuck
1959 68", 55# - YA540 - Auction 2-8-2010
1959 68", 47# - YB626L - no underlays - Jeff
1959 68", 38# - YB965 - no underlays - Wade
1959 68", 39# - YC039 - No underlays - Trap
1959 68", 55# - 9YX29 - no underlays - Bjorn
1959 70", 40#@29 ZA067 - underlays - Minnesota hunter
1959 70", 40# - ZA110 - underlays - Chuck
1959 70", 38# - ?????? - underlays removed - Wade
1959 70", 50# - 5VX26 - no underlays - Trap
Hi Wade
Thank You. Your research and dedication is outstanding! It amazes me the detail you have managed to bring out in your efforts. There is nothing out here such as this that I have ever had access to. I really should not be surprised after going through your book, Broadheads 1871-1971. A very finely detailed piece of work. Your right in your word of caution in the archives but I see you guys have done a lot of work there also. More please!
Was taking a better look at the twins and am gonna stop shooting them for now. They will still be waiting.
You know this info has really been available all along, what we are doing is ammalgamating it in one location.
And we still have not heard from some key additional players.
DDave
Gonna take this one back up to the top for one more round and hope that the Doc notices and responds.
DDave
Not gonna let this thread die just yet cause Chuck is gonna check his inventory.
Just a quick question for all. Were rug rests a factory install on this era of Bear just like the featherrest was?
DDave
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe the rug rest did not show up until 61.
First bow I saw it on was a '61 K mag.
Wade, your knowledge of these bows is invaluable.
I learned alot from following this tread.Thanks....Philip
Stay tuned, I have been in contact with a couple of key players who have still not checked their "racks" for these bows.
DDave
Looking forward to seeing more.......
I have a 1959 Kodiak purple heart site window 60" 55# BH359.
Mike S.
Mike, post us a pic of that one please. Did you go back to page one and see the 59 from Jack Shanks? Yours is the second bow in that series from 59 that has turned up.
Your bow is also very close in number to my 60 twins, 376 and 377.
Thanks for keeping the ball rolling.
DDave
Here are a few not-so-great photos of BH 909. This bow is certainly far from pristine. This bow was hunted hard in Pennsylvania and the owner obviously didn't baby it in the woods. Its 50+ years are showing their effect on the riser finish.
Still shoots great, even with its worn feather rest......its about time to order a few from Trap!
(http://i884.photobucket.com/albums/ac44/hayslope1/Bows/DSC_0655.jpg)
(http://i884.photobucket.com/albums/ac44/hayslope1/Bows/DSC_0656.jpg)
(http://i884.photobucket.com/albums/ac44/hayslope1/Bows/DSC_0658.jpg)
hayslope I love your bow thats a good one good weight good length and real good looking bd
great pics, real nice bow, thanks
ddave
Hayslope
That's a fine looking bow. The 60 K is next on my list that I would like to find. After what I learned on this thread I know what I'm looking for.
Oh great, Larry, I just shot myself in the foot again. Now I am gonna have to be biddin against you on the big auction. Any chance that I could give you a good deal on a new 1962 Panda and get you to change yer mind. ;) ;) ;)
DDave
NOPE!!!! But I want one like hayslope's with the copper coin in the low 40 lb range. Not sure where I'll pick that up but definitely on the search.
So that is definite no then?
You realize the twins are 38 and 45 @ 26 inches and have the copper coins and you are first in line if I ever sell them.
And since you have been such good luck for me I am gonna help you find what you are looking for.
DDave
BH247 60" 47# w/ butcherblock sight window is in my collection. It has been refinished and is on the shooters rack. Fun bow to take out in the backyard but a little light in weight for my hunting. Hope this helps, Chuck.
Seems we are adding bows one at a time, Chuck, and the last one was a 59 so you have the 60 ball rolling again.
My twins BH376 and 377 have the butcher block as well.
Thanks for posting, I know you are a busy guy these days.
DDave
I have one with the ser# 2J154 46#, were does that fit into the mix?
QuoteOriginally posted by Craig/FL:
I have one with the ser# 2J154 46#, were does that fit into the mix?
From what we have now it does not, so how about some info on the other specs of the bow such as length and limb tip configuration. Pics are always the best way to identify bows.
DDave
I'll attempt some pics..
(http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll179/crabman1957/DSCF3918.jpg)
another..
(http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll179/crabman1957/DSCF3919.jpg)
one more..
(http://i288.photobucket.com/albums/ll179/crabman1957/DSCF3920.jpg)
Okay now it gets a lot more mysterious.
And btw that is not an attempt at pics, that is a very good result at pics.
All we can do for now is wait for Wade Phillips or possibly Bowdoc to enlighten us. Those limb tips are so much like the ones on my BH bows.
DDave
Hey guys, we have another hot 59 just showed up.
DDave
QuoteOriginally posted by Craig/FL:
I have one with the ser# 2J154 46#, were does that fit into the mix?
Craig - Your bow falls in after the serial numbering sequence of two letters followed by three numbers, was changed in 1960...
I have a draft for the book about the serial numbers and all the changes that is now over 2 dozen pages of explanation... Far too much to post here...
Thanks, Wade.
That bowdoc is just silly. He said in another post that another old bow blew up when he looked at it.
Everyone knows you have to touch them to make them blow.
DDave
Can't say that I have ever had this happen but...
Guess if the bow was just laying on the table strung up, it could de-laminate while you were looking at it....
Stranger things have probably happened, but I can't think of any off hand...
I had a 1965 Polar that was on the work bench-strung. I turned away to do whatever, a few moments later there was an 'explosion' behind me..............the bow was unstrung on the floor and the string had flown across the shop.
I went upstairs to change my shorts, and when I returned to examine the bow and string everything was just fine.
Scary; but ended well.
Here's a Pair, the Maple Sight window was refinished by Bowdoc and she is a Beauty. the other is orignal.
(http://http://i699.photobucket.com/albums/vv355/Bowbent/59Kodiaks010-1.jpg) (http://http://i699.photobucket.com/albums/vv355/Bowbent/59Kodiaks011.jpg) http://i699.photobucket.com/albums/vv355/Bowbent/59Kodiaks012-1.jpg
try again (http://
(http://http://i699.photobucket.com/albums/vv355/Bowbent/59Kodiaks011.jpg) (http://i699.photobucket.com/albums/vv355/Bowbent/59Kodiaks010-1.jpg)
Maybe this Time !!
http://i699.photobucket.com/albums/vv355/Bowbent/59Kodiaks011.jpg
Very cool read I have a lot to learn thanks guys,why havent I been a internet guy this is great
Just gonna give this one another go round and then let it slide.
Thanks to all for some very enlightening and entertaining input.
DDave
QuoteOriginally posted by SAM E. STEPHENS:
Very cool read I have a lot to learn thanks guys,why havent I been a internet guy this is great
Sam, just a lil warning. Internet archery can be very dangerous to the health of your bank account.
I will post a pic of my bows once I have them all in hand. I am currently waiting to finish a blank long bow, receive a custom bow and receive 3 bows that I bought on ****.
I will post a pic of a few just to give you an idea.
(http://i849.photobucket.com/albums/ab54/damascusdave_2009/002-1.jpg)
DDave
Bowbent, what a gorgeous pair of shooters. A person could hunt their lifetime with those two and never regret a moment.
DDave
BH853 60' 45#
QuoteOriginally posted by Bowbent:
(http://http://i699.photobucket.com/albums/vv355/Bowbent/59Kodiaks011.jpg) (http://i699.photobucket.com/albums/vv355/Bowbent/59Kodiaks010-1.jpg)
Those are magnificent.........
Hey Thanks Guys ! Got lucky on the maple SW and Bowdoc did his magic and resurrected her !! The other I PAID the price for but its original and clean. Some days your the Bug and some days your the Windshield !! Still didn't get the right pic to show up. Dang Puters ! Thanks Guys
Zepnut, thanks for adding to the list. That now makes eleven 60's and two 59's recorded.
Here are some pics of BH 667, which went gopher hunting with me for the first time yesterday. I would love to say the gopher I shot was charging me at the time, but alas, it was simply sitting there waiting. You think a broadhead on a 660 grain arrow out of a 55 pound bow might be a bit of overkill?
(http://i849.photobucket.com/albums/ab54/damascusdave_2009/P4091777.jpg)
(http://i849.photobucket.com/albums/ab54/damascusdave_2009/P4091776.jpg)
(http://i849.photobucket.com/albums/ab54/damascusdave_2009/P4091773.jpg)
I am learning that to get the full effect out of these gorgeous creatures the pics need to be taken outside in natural light.
DDave
Just a little warning, Bill. If you do not already have one a 60 Kodiak can kinda spoil you for shooting your other bows. Just something special about the way they feel and point.
DDave
For me, time to take a little bow buying holiday as harsh reality rears its ugly head.
DDave
DDave Here's another one to add to the list, the pics I had were from one of the hunts I took her on for the 50th anniversary hunt last season.
(http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q118/Hoof43/2010-10-11075011.jpg)
(http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q118/Hoof43/2010-10-11074949.jpg)
It has a copper coin...and narrow tips
High number and copper coin further confirming Wades info that there can be any coin on any bow. My lh 667 has the aluminum coin.
Thanks, what never ceases to amaze me is the average condition of bows in this series. I think that the original owners of these bows were all very serious archers.
DDave
Looks like yours also has a butcher block i beam.
DDave
So an even dozen out of 999 bows accounted for.
DDave
I finally got around to reading this entire thread and found it very entertaining and interesting...and informative. Here are some serial numbers from 4 bows on my rack:
1959, 60", 47#, BG611 (copper coin and purple heart window)
1959, 64", 55#, DB732 (copper coin and purple heart window)
1960, 60", 49#, 18ZX4? (aluminum coin, rosewood window)
1960, 64", 41#, DD327 (copper coin, rosewood window)
DoubleD 327, hm. I really think a guy named DamascusDave ought to have that bow.
Only thing is I would suspect you would want both my RH Kodiaks in trade.
Please do not tease us like this. I will send you my right arm and you post some pics please.
DDave
I just checked my phone and it would make so much sense for me to start collecting DD bows since DDave is DD283. All I would have to do is collect all of the Chev engine size number bows. Actually, that would be ridiculous, I would only collect the Chevy V8 number bows.
So 265, 283, 301,302,327,350,396,400,427,454. Did I miss anything? I should be able to easily get those ones for right around 10 grand.
Lon, thanks so much for starting me on a life long quest which will leave me financially broken, yet with a strangely satisfied smile. :scared:
DDave
QuoteOriginally posted by damascusdave:
Looks like yours also has a butcher block i beam.
DDave
DD... I'm going to post a better pic of sight window, I didnt think it was one...
(http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q118/Hoof43/2010-10-11075026.jpg)
Nope, just a solid rosewood from the look of it. Still very nice grain and super nice looking.
That looks very much like an original featherrest as well. I thought that mine were in great shape, yours is even better.
Once again thanks for some great pics.
DDave
OK, here ya go DDave...a 1960 Kodiak made just for you...
(http://images.imagelinky.com/1303697267.JPG) (http://images.imagelinky.com/1303697267.JPG)
(http://images.imagelinky.com/1303697416.JPG) (http://images.imagelinky.com/1303697416.JPG)
(http://images.imagelinky.com/1303697733.) (http://images.imagelinky.com/1303697733.)
DamascusDave...you forgot the mighty dual quad 409! Chevrolet's top dog from 1961 to 1965. A 425hp 409 would rank right up there with a mint 1959 or 1960 Kodiak. Chevy only the tri-poer 348 as their powerhouse these years!
How could I forget the mighty 409; even a song about it, and I tend to try to name my bows after songs.
A friend of mine was very badly injured in the late sixties in a wreck driving, as I recall, an Impala, with a 409. I have no idea how he and his passenger survived, the only straight and intact piece left on the whole car was a bit of the roof on the passenger side.
DDave
Lon, there are those that would have us believe that screw in the riser would make the bow practically useless. I am guessing that the screw is for attaching a Bear quiver, which, btw the lady who I bought the Twins from may very well still have a very good example of.
It seems to me that the 64 inchers came with the rug rest rather than the featherrest.
At my 30 inch draw that lil sweetheart would be right at 45 pounds.
Thanks for posting a pic, those rosewood risers are just the best eye candy.
DDave
DDave,
Thanks I do have the original rest and it was natural barred also, but I gently removed it and installed a finely crafted rest made by Trap. I really like how all of his rest shoot and look! AAA+ quality.
QuoteOriginally posted by damascusdave:
Nope, just a solid rosewood from the look of it. Still very nice grain and super nice looking.
That looks very much like an original featherrest as well. I thought that mine were in great shape, yours is even better.
Once again thanks for some great pics.
DDave
Those Trap rests are just gorgeous. Guess I really ought to order up a few.
DDave
[IMG]http://photobucket.com[IMG_0088.jpg]
[IMG]http://photobucket.com[IMG_0089.jpg]
[IMG]http://photobucket.com[IMG_0090.jpg]
[IMG]http://photobucket.com[IMG_0091.jpg]
[IMG]http://photobucket.com[IMG_0092.jpg]
Has anyone seen a 56" like this before with the red and white fiberglass ovetlays and with a Ser.# starting with DB? If so, any idea of how many were made?
Thanks!
Brian Tessmann
[IMG]http://photobucket.com[/IMG_0089.jpg]
Lets see if this works, if not what am I doing wrong?
Brian
[IMG]http://www.Photobucket.com[/IMG_0088]
[IMG]http://www.Photobucket.com[/IMG_0089]
[IMG]http://www.Photobucket.com[/IMG_0090]
[IMG]http://www.Photobucket.com[/IMG_0091]
[IMG]http://www.Photobucket.com[/IMG_0092]
Last try then I'm done.
Brian
Don't give up yet. On your photobucket page, go to the photo you want copied, scroll down to the last line or the "IMG CODE" and click. It will say "copied". Then back to tradgang and click "Paste" in your message.
photo should appear...but notice I said "should"
(http://i34.photobucket.com/albums/d108/lwscott/59Kodiak-2.jpg)
How about this one?
[IMG]http://s1095.photobucket.com/albums/i466/mrbowjunkie/?action=view¤t=IMG_0090.jpg
I now officially give up!
Brian
Brian,
Let me see if I can help:
.....your PB doesn't seem to automatically copy the images....you have to copy them, put your cursor on the section at the bottom and copy, then paste them in the reply. But first....resize them.....they will get removed because they are way too big. No more than 600 pixels wide.
I started to copy them in to this post, but noticed how large they are.....then deleted them.
Do what I said above and it will work.
1960 Kodiaks...which ones are the rarest? Wood combinations, lengths, coin...etc.
(http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i466/mrbowjunkie/IMG_0092.jpg) (http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i466/mrbowjunkie/IMG_0090-1.jpg) (http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i466/mrbowjunkie/IMG_0088.jpg) (http://i1095.photobucket.com/albums/i466/mrbowjunkie/IMG_0089.jpg)
Thanks to everyone for your help!!! Let me know what you think of the bow, I've never seen a 56" with thw fiberglass overlays.
Brian
Brian, that appears to be a 1959 instead of 1960...and the serial # looks like Bowdoc's handwriting :thumbsup:
Lon,
Just bought it at a Trad. Shoot this last weekend, so I don't know it's origins. If Don refinished it, maybe he can confirm that. There are 2 expertly filled holes in the sight window.
Brian
Hi All, I'm not a collector, but just picked up a 1959 Kodiak, and old Indian, and and old Hoyt for $75. The Kodiak is in good condition, but has a lot of olf tape residue that just will not come off. It's BH162 60" 43#. However it feels more like 53#. Brass coin, orginal leather, dark brown and orangish brown glass, skinny tips. Just made a flemish string for it. I always wanted one as a teenager, and now I got one! I will try to get a pic up.
Neil
So at least 3 BH series bows out there that are clearly 59's.
DDave
DDave,
My serial # for my 59 is either BEO84L or BEO841. Number is kind of faded away, but sure looks like 84L Oh yeah its 47# @ 60" butcher block, copper coin.
In MHO it is real hard to say which is sweeter to shoot but if I had to pick it would be the '59 by a hair.
Andy
This topic just came up on another site so I am going to bring it back to the top in hopes that we can get some more great pics posted.
DDave
One more time around to see if any more will come out of the woodwork.
I am taking my lefty hunting elk and moose in a couple of weeks. Will post some pics even if not successful.
DDave
I just picked up a 50# lefty '60 with rosewood & alum coin. Its not a BH but i'll post a pick when my feather rest comes in.
Anyone seen a 1960 Kodiak 60" bow with serial number beginning with 9H?
Dave,
I have a 1960 60" Kodiak with serial # 9H63. Do you know when they went to a number before the Letter? Thanks, Dave B.
This thread is getting so long now that it almost needs to be indexed. The answer to the last question is actually near the beginning of the thread.
If you check the second post by Wade Philips you will see that BJ was the end of the two letter prefixes and then he says that things changed to two numbers. Dave, that means that if your bow really does begin with one digit rather than two we have another puzzle to sort out.
A huge part of the magic of owning these bows is trying to sort out what happened over 50 years ago without much, if anything, in the way of records.
Once again thanks for anything and everything posted. It all adds to the knowledge base surrounding these great bows.
DDave
Serial numbers will always be a question mark for us.....while most will fit within the confines as we understand them.....occasionally there is one that just doesn't seem to fall into line.
I was re-reading an old copy of Fred Bear's Field Notes last month. In the section on the 1959 Little Delta Hunt, Fred has a prepared "expense statement". At the bottom of Page 105, under "Material furnished for the $200 by Bear Archery Company" , there is a bow mentioned:
1 60" Kodiak AA023 $36.00
This tidbit gives us pause because:
IF it was a 60" bow, why does it have what we have determined to be a 56" serial number?
Maybe Fred made a mistake? Maybe we've made too many assumptions!
QuoteOriginally posted by damascusdave:
If you check the second post by Wade Philips you will see that BJ was the end of the two letter prefixes and then he says that things changed to two numbers. Dave, that means that if your bow really does begin with one digit rather than two we have another puzzle to sort out.
DDave
Dave - The "two numbers" statement was an abbreviated way to let everyone know that the numbering had changed. With the second post on the thread, I didn't think it was good idea to include too many in depth details that would only confuse most readers.
However, now that a few guys have questions, it is probably a good time to give a more in depth explanation of what the scheme changed to...
If the last sentence were completed in detail, it would say...
"changed to one or two numbers, followed by a letter, which was followed by numbers...."
That will probably still confuse some guys.
Examples of 1960 Kodiaks with this later scheme have already been mentioned by others on this thread... here are some...
2J154 - Craig/FL mentioned
9H63 - Dave B. mentioned above
11N41 - Ahandle70 mentioned on second page of thread
12P65 - Brian posed photo on first page of thread
This later scheme isn't nearly as clean or understandable as the very straight forward BA, BB, BC etc
QuoteOriginally posted by hayslope:
... Maybe Fred made a mistake?...
Many other possibilities too...
Maybe Fred didn't make a mistake and the bow was really marked that way at the factory...
Maybe Fred didn't make a mistake and someone at the factory made a mistake in mis-marking the bow ...
Maybe the editor made a mistake when he transcribed the statement into the book ...
I'm sure we could come up with lots of other possibilities too...
QuoteOriginally posted by hayslope:
... Maybe we've made too many assumptions!
I try to deal in facts and not make assumptions.
Assumptions that some have made about the serial numbers, are pretty far off from reality.
The thing I like about the way you operate, Wade, is that you set an example for all of us to base conclusions on proven fact and to identify conjecture as just that.
I find myself frequently using the words "appears to be" rather than "is" and that is a good thing when you are dealing with clues that are 50 or more years old.
I just came back from an elk hunt with my 55 pound (closer to 60 at my draw length) left handed 60 Kodiak (BH 667). Before I left I ran it through the Chrony and with a 530 grain arrow I was getting 185 fps. Now my long draw helps, but that is a fast bow. I have no doubt it will punch the 630 grain 2 blades I hunt with right through an elk as long as there is not too much rib involved. Not bad for 51 year old technology.
I have also noticed that good things just keep happening when you hunt with old Bears. I could almost write a book just on my experiences from last week.
DDave
Still trying to get bowdoc up to speed on this thread so going to run it through the mill yet again. Anyone else feel free to contribute too. There is a bookful of good collecting info in this thread.
DDave
Still trying to get bowdoc up to speed on this thread so going to run it through the mill yet again. Anyone else feel free to contribute too. There is a bookful of good collecting info in this thread.
DDave
Here's the '60 Kodiak I mentioned earlier, all original with exception of new feather rest by Trap.
27K93R
50#
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa224/SOLOHUNTER/P1030556.jpg)
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa224/SOLOHUNTER/P1030552.jpg)
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa224/SOLOHUNTER/P1030559.jpg)
(http://i196.photobucket.com/albums/aa224/SOLOHUNTER/P1030558.jpg)
There's a 1960 Kodiak on Eba% right now. 60" and 50# RH. Al Reader bow. Very nice bow.
Serial # 1J137.......philip
I saw that one come up. Looks like a very nice bow.
Very nice 1960 Kodiak 50#.
item # 280759839784
The bow belonged to Al Reader. His wife does'nt know that I mention it here on TG.
She has a couple of nice Kodiaks on auction.
I want to help her by mentioning it here.
I am no authority on Kodiaks. I can tell you what year model it is but that's about it.
The serial # is 1J137. Not sure if the "1j"
serial # has significance or not. Gorgeous wood in the sight window!
check it out......Philip
(http://i616.photobucket.com/albums/tt247/87philip/1jkodiak.jpg)
It's a grreat life if ya dona weaken. Why is it that these bows just are in such great shape most of the time? Just looks like that leather grip laid on something on the one side that caused it to deteriorate. Otherwise that bow is gorgeous.
Too many great bows and too little money right now.
Thanks for posting. There is not better eye candy than a 59 or 60 Kodiak.
DDave
Here's BF846......60" and 55#, she has a blonde brother too. :readit: .......Philip
(http://i616.photobucket.com/albums/tt247/87philip/phil10-2.jpg)
I thought this topic should come back to the top.
I love seeing those Kodiak's! :clapper:
Nice maple sight window! Gotta be my favorite bow of all time.
Here's a couple more for your viewing pleasure!
:goldtooth:
Enjoy......Philip
(http://i616.photobucket.com/albums/tt247/87philip/kodiak_1960.jpg)
I like tham all. Bear Archery hit it out of the park in 1959. A true classic that will never get old.
QuoteOriginally posted by ahandle70:
I like tham all. Bear Archery hit it out of the park in 1959. A true classic that will never get old.
These 3 are 1960 models...........Philip
QuoteOriginally posted by vintage-bears:
QuoteOriginally posted by ahandle70:
[qb] I like tham all. Bear Archery hit it out of the park in 1959. A true classic that will never get old. [/b]
Ahandle70,
Your right, Bear Archery did hit it out of the park in 1959. :thumbsup:
(http://i616.photobucket.com/albums/tt247/87philip/kodiak_1959.jpg)
A few more 1960 Kodiaks
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/1960Kodiaks.jpg)
What a Rack!
No, not that kind of rack Wade!
What a pretty sight..........philip
Just picked my first '60, BH933 copper coin 47# and skinny tips,, what a bow!
It was mentioned a few posts back about Bubinga site windows being rare in the '59's,,My 64" '59 has a Bubinga site window,,Just to know, how rare are they? 1 in 300..500?,,more so in the 60" than the 64"?,,Great thread here.
A BH that may not have had its image posted on this thread yet... A nice hunting weight.
One of Floyd Eccleston's shop bows from a by gone era. Have had it for a number of years, not part of the collection or display & don't shoot it. It's just sort of "hanging out" here so to speak. Should be refinished for a shooter, but never got around to sending it off to have that done.
(http://i386.photobucket.com/albums/oo301/WadePhillips/196055.jpg)
You can send it here Wade, as soon as I get a proper finish on it I will deliver it :)
Wade, thanks for the birthday present. I notice that you posted that last pic on my 60th birthday.
DDave
Oops, not the last pic you posted, but the one you posted on December 4, 2011, Wade and thanks for keeeping this thread alive and for all you have done to help us understand our little obsessions.
DDave
Lets bring this one back to the top yet again.
One thing that I have noticed on many of the bows is that it appears, from the shape of the characters, that there was only one person putting serial numbers on those bows. If only we could speak with that person, eh?
DDave
This thread needs to come to the top yet again.
DDave
OK Here are some Rare one's
59-BA075,-60"-53# very dark window, NO Coin.
59-BA872,-60"-55# MSW,Long, copper coin.
59-BA958,-60"-45# Bubinga, Copper Coin.
59-AA-165,-56"42# Rosewood, Copper Coin.
59-DA-588,-64"-55# MSW Short, NO Coin.
59-NO-SN, 64"-100# Rosewood, No Coin.
59-DA-616,-64"50# MSW, Long, Copper Coin.
59-BG878,-60"-42# Bubinga, Coper Coin.
59-BB264,-60"-45# Bubinga, Copper Coin.
59-BA312,-60"-50# MSW Short, NO Coin.
59-BA067,-60"-51# Black Sight Window, NO Coin.
59-DA152,-64"-56# MSW, Long. Copper Coin.
59-DA318,-64"-35# Dark Rosewood. No Coin.
59-BG199,-60"-61# Custom Made for Nel's Grumley, The Riser Was Customized Long and Thin, Custom Leather Grip With Compass, The Way Nel's use to Wrap His Grip.Cyrstallite Glass, Red and White Tips. Kodiak Decal. Copper Coin.
60-AA795,-56"-41#
60-4K39,-60"-47#
60-9HZ113,-64"90# NO Coin.
60-BH383,-60"-60#, Butcher Block.
60-19P20,-60"30#
60-DD754,-64"-48#
Thanks for your input, Dave. BH 383 is the coveted 60, 60, 60 (year, length, draw weight)
DDave
I just won a Bear Kodiak on the auction site. It's #45 60" with green glass and serial #15F129. Just wondering what year this is and if it should have a leather grip. I really didn't need or could afford another vintage bow but I couldn't help myself. The green glass just sucked me in. Now I need a leather bottom quiver to go with it. Help, this vintage Bear thing is going to break me. LOL
Ross
HI Ross,Sounds Like a 1961, the only year with split Pea Green Limbs Both Sides, and the first year without a leather Grip. Dave.
Thanks Dave. I love that green glass.
Ross
Just a heads up to my Kodiak collector friends.
I listed a rare Kodiak in the classified section.
Hope I am not breaking the forum rules Terry, if I am please delete.
......Philip
Here is my tiny list:
1959 60" 53# BD 584
1959 64" 37# DE 064B
1960 64" 41# DD 327
Dan
Well I finally took the plunge and applied some Loctite 420 to what looked like a long crack on the riser of BH 376. It pretty much proved that only about half of what appeared to be a crack in the wood actually was. That part slurped up the Loctite. The rest just appears to be a finish imperfection.
That bow shows a lot of limb twist when unstrung that is stubborn about coming out. When I string the bow things line up nicely and the bow behaves fine. I am just gonna shoot it that way for two reasons. Because I can and I just like shooting that bow.
DDave
Here's one that I've had for a few months - serial number 8L68 - 60", 45#. It was the original finish when I got it but I refinished it because it had lots of vertical cracks on belly and back. It has an aluminum coin.
(http://www.pmagistro.com/60kodiak/PM3_9182.jpg)
That bow looks just beautiful Phil.
The refinish is terrific and that leather work too.
Enjoy!
.....Philip
Thanks Philip. I did screw up the skiving and there are some new vertical lines breaking through so I'm going to redo it. I need a winter hobby. :)
Phil,
unless your looking for a SHOW bow, I would leave it and enjoy it. That bow came out really nice.
Bravo!
......Philip
Philip, I am in agreement. I got some Loctite 420 on my bow where it does not belong and was kind of upset about it. Then I realized that I did the repair because I want to shoot that bow. Sure it may have some effect if I were going to sell the bow or just look at it. If you are busy admiring your pretty bow when you are shooting it you will never become much of a shooter. Nothing wrong with a 50 plus year old bow not being perfect.
DDave
just picked up a
1959
BD 251
60"
45#
Cody if you have the desire to wade (no pun intended) through a very long thread you will find some great info on serial numbering of that era. I think you will come to the conclusion that there are no conclusions. Go back and start at the beginning of this thread.
Just a bit of caution. Do not shoot that 59 unless you want to have to go looking for more. There is some magic in them.
DDave
Gonna bring this one back one more time to recognise Wade's return to posting...and to show the variation in limb, tip and grip configuration of that era compared to the current Bear Kodiak
DDave
Good thread here Dave!! I forgot all the good info that came out of this one. Thanks for bringing it back up!!
Yes...snow day out here, so thanks for the good re-read.
:thumbsup: :thumbsup: :thumbsup:
Just got this back from the bow Hospital
(http://i680.photobucket.com/albums/vv166/renos53/100_3215.jpg) (http://s680.photobucket.com/user/renos53/media/100_3215.jpg.html)
(http://i680.photobucket.com/albums/vv166/renos53/100_3216.jpg) (http://s680.photobucket.com/user/renos53/media/100_3216.jpg.html)
(http://i680.photobucket.com/albums/vv166/renos53/100_3218.jpg) (http://s680.photobucket.com/user/renos53/media/100_3218.jpg.html)
(http://i680.photobucket.com/albums/vv166/renos53/100_3219.jpg) (http://s680.photobucket.com/user/renos53/media/100_3219.jpg.html)
The one thing I have overlooked is that I really ought to have titled this thread "BH Series 1959/1960 Kodiak"...any discussion of one year often leads to a discussion of the other
DDave
I feel compelled to talk about a misconception that many may have regarding the relationship of Fred and Nels after Nels left Bear in 1948.
As many of you know, I acquired John Grumley's collection of bows made by his father, Nels Grumley. Actually the collection included Nels' photos, awards, tools, maps, letters, first deer, etc as well as the collectible non Grumley items.
Some may not realize that Nels was one of the Bear Archery Stock holders and kept his Bear Stock, even after he left Bear. He never sold it until all the stock holders had to sell, or exchange it, when Fred made the decision to sell the company.
The misconception that I'd like to clear up is that there is indisputable and conclusive evidence that Fred and Nels remained friends as well as business partners long after Nels left Bear.
Nels Grumley was the greatest bowyer of archery's golden era when men still made bows by hand. Nels' amazing God given talents as a craftsman were not being utilized by working on laminated bows that were being made by gluing up pre-fab parts that were then run through duplicating machines to turn out factory made bows.
Nels left Bear, started his own bow shop, and for a couple of years, did what he wanted to do and what he was great at doing, and made many styles of great bows.
Nels kept his Bear Archery Stock and kept his friends, don't let anyone mislead you.
Leaving Bear may not have been Nels' wisest financial decision, but then selling Bear Archery Company, may not have been Fred's wisest financial decision either.
Who among us has not made a less than wise financial decision? Whatever less than wise decision was made, we probably still managed to keep our real friends.
And yes, during the 1950s after Nels closed his bow shop, he began shooting Bear recurves... Anyone got a photo of Nels shooting a 1959 or 1960 Bear Kodiak???
Wade,
Thank you for your post. I lived close to John Grumley and considered him a friend for over 20 years. I know he struggled with what to do with his collection of his dads bows and the other historical stuff he had and I was so glad to see it in your hands. I think I posted elsewhere on another thread that John was using a Gainesville wood B-handle takedown for his day in and day out hunting (in fact that bow was hanging with some of his clothing on a rack at his memorial service). If Nels or John had ill will towards Bear Archery, he wouldn't have been using there current bows and John never said a peep accordingly. The only time I saw John using a bow other than the take-down was when he had some copies of some bows from the Brooks Brothers out of Ohio that John said were the closest thing to his dads bows that he ever saw. In the TBM article that I wrote about Shrewhaven Lodge a year ago, there is a picture of John in front of the cabin and he's using the Brooks Brothers replica of his dad's bows.
John should've been the focus of an interview for TBM years ago, as he was one of the true historians of archery, just like Floyd Eccleston. That opportunity has passed. I think of John often.
here's the picture from the article with John Grumley (second from left next to Ron LaClair) with a Brooks Brothers copy of his dads bows.
(//%5Burl=http://s1246.photobucket.com/user/shrewshooter/media/johngrumleyphoto_zps54a1a601.jpg.html%5D%20%5Bimg%5Dhttp://i1246.photobucket.com/albums/gg617/shrewshooter/johngrumleyphoto_zps54a1a601.jpg)[/url] [/IMG]
ttt
As long as I am alive this thread will never die...bouncing it back to the top because someone requested to see the Wade Philips pic that he so generously offered early in the thread...next time you think you know how a 1960 Kodiak feels in the hand take a look at that picture...they feel a lot of different ways...and btw BH376 is going elk hunting with me right away...the full moon and the snow here should get the rut under way a bit early
DDave
Just bumped two other threads up above this one...now I have to rebump this one...can anyone say disorganized old airhead
DDave
cool thread with some beautiful Bears
Randy as you can tell from my earliest posts I had no idea where this thread was going to go...the big thing it did for me was bring Wade Phillips out to play when he had been MIA for some time, just as he has been lately...in my mind Wade is the premier Bear collector today if only by a small margin...I am a small potatoes Bear guy compared to many who chimed in on the thread and I find myself referring to it about once or twice a year as a source of some great pictures and maybe even better information
DDave
Happy New Year to all my Bear collecting friends who I have yet to meet...let's run this one again for the beginning of a new year
DDave
Happy New Year DD!
BTW, did I miss your post on the moose hunt? Did you bloody one of those nice Bears you have?
Is this a New Years assignment teacher Dave? I would like to meet you fellows but the distance from Texas is a bit much.
I do not own any 1960 Kodiaks so there is no reference piece for me to handle and study. I am handicapped on this one.
Happy New Years to the few special people that show up on this forum.
Lon you did not miss my post on the non-hunt...first work kept getting in the way...then when I decided hunting would take priority Alberta's ugly November weather got in the way...I have a better plan for this fall though...unless things change I can get a tag for the much earlier archery season closer to home and I should be collecting at least some pension by then to give me more time to hunt...that will make a big difference...Brad there are these big shiny things called airplanes that fly from places like Dallas or Houston to Calgary every day...the other Brad, aka trubltrubl, and I could meet you at the airport and we could be shooting at Calgary Archery Centre an hour later...Al, the owner, has quite a few nice old Bears hanging on the walls and he only displays the poor quality stuff
DDave
I never get tired of running this one through again...just a great example of how much expertise and knowledge we can access through this forum...in many way trad history and collecting is about Bear archery products
DDave
Time to run this one to the top again...there was an amazing 64 inch lefty up for auction and I simply did not have the money in the right place to get it...lesson there that a collector needs to be ready all the time
DDave
Thanks for putting this up. I have been thinking of getting a bow from the year I was born and this helped me decide to watch for a 1960 kodiak or kodiak special. I guess I have to sell a bow to fund this.
You picked a pretty good time to buy one...they are running about half the price they were a few years ago...I see you live in Michigan...seems to be a good place to find Grayling Bears for some reason
DDave
I need to save up for one. Hopefully prices will be good when I can afford it. It seams like this would be a good place to find the Grayling bows, but you don't see that many.
Best thing you can do is private message or email Jack Shanks...if he cannot find it in Michigan it is not there...he posted some pics of his BH prefix 1959 "Owl" bow early in this thread getting us started on the idea that Bear may have serial numbered bows only when they were ready to leave the factory
DDave
Here you go, Dave
Thanks Brad...I have to admit I did not spend a lot of time searching for this thread...I have read it enough times the information in it is pretty much committed to memory
DDave